kissing with your far cousin when you are drunk incest?

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hi cool ppl,it's me jerry again

i need some help

last saturday i was at a party and i met a girl there,and later it turned out that she was my cousin from the usa i never met,we were both drunk and we kissed and did some stuff together(not sex)

her grandpa and my grandma are sister and brother,does this count now as incest?

is this sinful?

and we were drunk so can this be an excuse?

i'm confused

-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 18, 2005

Answers

Correct me if I'm wrong folks, but I think that makes you second cousins. I think the Catholic Church allows second cousins to get married, though there may be exceptions to that.

So incest wouldn't be involved here at all. BUT . . . as we discussed in earlier threads jerry, all sex outside of marriage is sinful, it's called fornication. Even if you didn't have intercourse, I suspect the "stuff" that you did also qualifies as sin, but not as serious as fornication itself. By the way, getting drunk is also a sin, but again, it's not as serious a sin as fornication.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 18, 2005.


well the stuff we did was just hanging around and hugging and kissing and we didn't touch at the intime places or anything so i don't think we had sex

but so i could stay together with her and this is completly ok?

sdqa and punker told me i really shouldn't bother about this and just do the way i feel but i just want to be sure

-- jerry (doofiecro,@hormail.com), January 18, 2005.


Sorry about the assumption there, Jerry. Most of the time when people say they kissed and "stuff", they mean that they touched each other intimately.

According to a website I just visited, it appears that marrying second cousins anywhere in the U.S. is perfectly legal. Since I'm not Catholic, it would be better for one of the forum Catholics to formally inform you of Catholic Law, but I've visited the Catholic Encyclopedia and it appears that marrying second cousins is perfectly acceptable, at least is has been since 1983 when the rules were revised.

So I see no reason not to date a second cousin.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 18, 2005.


Canon 1091 of Canon Law covers this. I don't know the terminology well enough to explain exactly what it all means, but maybe someone else can. It reads ...

§1 Marriage is invalid between those related by consanguinity in all degrees of the direct line, whether ascending or descending, legitimate or natural.

§2 In the collateral line, it is invalid up to the fourth degree inclusive.

§3 The impediment of consanguinity is not multiplied.

§4 A marriage is never to be permitted if a doubt exists as to whether the parties are related by consanguinity in any degree of the direct line, or in the second degree of the collateral line.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 18, 2005.


Despite how legal or illegal it may or may not be...dude...she's your cousin! That's pretty gross.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 18, 2005.


The impediment of consanguinity is not multiplied

Are you sure that didn't come from a U.S. government document? It sure looks like their work.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 18, 2005.


Im with Anti-Bush on this one...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 18, 2005.

Where’s your loyalty to the British royal family Zarove? They’ve been marrying their second cousins, double second cousins, and even first cousins for centuries.

I don’t pretend to know what “the second degree of the collateral line” means, but I know there were plenty of people in Europe who married, in the Catholic Church, their second and first cousins. (Maybe the parish priests didn’t understand the canon law either?) I am told that in places like Sicily this was very common until very recently. It seems it is only in immigrant-based societies like the US that people regard this as “gross”.

I don’t think you have a problem Jerry. One point though. If you had committed a sin, the fact that you were drunk can never be an excuse. (Assuming you willingly got drunk.)

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 18, 2005.


"last saturday i was at a party and i met a girl there,and later it turned out that she was my cousin from the usa i never met,we were both drunk and we kissed and did some stuff together(not sex)

her grandpa and my grandma are sister and brother,does this count now as incest? "

What a small world jerry. You meet a girl at a party( your cousin from the U.S.A.). LOL

Are you still sexually attracted to her after the fact? You sound like A BIRD to me.

PS: Sad to say the older incest thread were John went into great detail on this was deleted by the mad-deleter.[ But at least he prayed about it before he trashed 25% of the forum! lol]

-- - (David@excite.com), January 18, 2005.


well enough to explain exactly what it all means, but maybe someone else can. It reads ... §1 Marriage is invalid between those related by consanguinity in all degrees of the direct line, whether ascending or descending, legitimate or natural.

§2 In the collateral line, it is invalid up to the fourth degree inclusive.

§3 The impediment of consanguinity is not multiplied.

§4 A marriage is never to be permitted if a doubt exists as to whether the parties are related by consanguinity in any degree of the direct line, or in the second degree of the collateral line.

WELLLLLLLLLLLLLL... according to my dictionary, canon law and commom law agree on the whole relationship computation. civil law is a bit different, it considers you not as closely related to someone than the other two laws.

1. Anyways, sanguine means blood. Direct line of descent means your grandfather > father > YOU > your son > your grandson ... this includes females by the way. so you cannot marry your father (or mother), you cannot marry your grandkids or your grandparents.

2. the collateral line is like a horizontal lineage. your brother, cousin, and second cousin are on the same line. to show how you, your cousin and second cousin are on a collateral line...a second cousin is your father's cousin's child. your greatgrandfather has two sons, your grandfather and your grand uncle (so they're on the same collateral line). they both have a son, your father and his cousin (same line). they both have a son, you and your second cousin (same line). your brother is 2 degrees from you. your cousin is 4 degrees, your second cousin is 6 degrees. but this is according to civil law. canon law says that your second cousin is 3 degrees away from you because it counts the degrees laterally. you brother is one degree, your cousin is 2, and your second cousin is 3.

3. a degree is how many people away you are from someone, according to civil law. you are 1 degree away from your father, 1 away from your son, 2 away from your grandfather (you > father > grandfather) and 2 away from your grandchild ( you > son > grandson).

you are 2 degrees from your brother (you > father > brother--father's son--). you are 3 away from your uncle (you > father > grandfather > uncle --grandfather's son--) which makes you 4 degrees away from your cousin cuz your cousin is your uncle's son. the degrees are counted by going back up the family tree and counting each person in the vertical lineage), then coming back down the family tree on another branch and counting each person (on the vertical lineage). each person is a degree. so your second cousin is 6 degrees away cuz you go up the family tree (from you > 1.father > 2.grandfather > 3.great grandfather) that's 3 degrees, and go down the branch that leads to your second cousin (from your great grandfather > 4.your great uncle-- your grandfather's brother-- > 5.great uncle's son--your father's cousin-- > 6.second cousin) but canon law doesn't go up and around family lines to reach the degrees, it counts them horizontally.

when the family intermarries, it messes up the simple direct descendent degree thing. a person can simultaneously be 3 degrees from you AND 5 degrees from you. that does not average out to 4, that averages out to the person being more than once related to you. so number 3 on the canon law here is trying to prevent people from being "their own grandfather"

4. any person of any degree on your vertical lineage... that's your father, his father, and his father etc. and your son, his son, and his son, etc.

the collateral lines are the lines right next to your direct lineage. for example, there's you, and your brother is next to you one the line, can't marry him. there's your father, you can't marry his brother. there's your grandfather, you can't marry his brother. so if there is any doubt that the person you like might be your uncle (aunt) or cousin or nephew(niece), there's no possible way you should be with the person.

basically, second cousins are a no no.

ps, i'll try to make a mini geneology chart if i can later.

testing123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 18, 2005.



rina,

I don't think you're interpreting that one correctly, though I realize it's not exactly in plain language. I read a summary from a Catholic Canon lawyer who said 2nd cousins marriage are approved by the Church since 1983, prior to that they were not allowed. I feel odd even arguing for the point since I agree that it's pretty gross.

Here's a repost of a previous thread on this forum in which John Gecik explains the same thing.

No, Ariadna. It is not "a sin to marry your second cousin." According to articles by two different canon lawyers (which I have read in the past few years), marrying a second cousin [or even a first cousin, once removed] is permitted by the Catholic Church's 1983 Code of Canon Law (for the Western/Latin church). In the previous Code (of 1917), marrying a second cousin was forbidden without the bishop's special permission (dispensation). Now it is even permissible to marry a first cousin with a dispensation -- though I recently read that this is forbidden by 30 of the 50 U.S. states. (I don't know if dispensation is granted only to sterile couples.)

It is not "incest" to marry any relative except those banned by the Church's laws -- e.g., parent/(step)child ... brother/ (stepsister) ... aunt-uncle/nephew-niece ... and first cousin [without dispensation].

God bless you. John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 28, 2003.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Response to A secon cousin Darn! That was supposed to say ... brother/(step)sister. In other words, a brother cannot marry his sister, step-sister, or half- sister.

Hope that helps.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 18, 2005.


Well if you guys really want to get into it they aren't second cousins.....they are second cousins once removed.

I apoligize but I could hold on to my two cents no further :)

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 18, 2005.


"I think the Catholic Church allows second cousins to get married.."

Dave please refrain from answering questions to Catholics.

Whether or not if you are right or wrong, you are in NO postion to speak for the Catholic Church. You gave this up when you left the true Church over 20 years ago.

Your soul is in grave danger for leaving. And the Catholic Church makes this vey clear.

Please shut up when it comes to Catholicism because its obvious you don't Know a DAMN thing, or you wouldn't have left the Catholic Church.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 18, 2005.


Thanks for your explanations, rina and Dave NCC.

“they aren't second cousins.....they are second cousins once removed”(kat). No, Jerry said “her grandpa and my grandma are sister and brother”. That makes them second cousins, period.

Dave excite, there is no need for your vicious attack on Dave NCC. He only said he THINKS the Catholic Church allows it, based on what a (generally well-informed) Catholic said. Anyway BEING a Catholic and knowing what the Church teaches are 2 different things. Zarove has never been a Catholic and he is better informed about Catholic beliefs than many Catholics. And you yourself have often shown your ignorance of Church doctrine and law while purporting to teach others.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 19, 2005.


UMM......NO Her Grandmothers child and his grandfathers child are cousins. She would be his father/mothers second cousin and he would be her mother/fathers second cousing, so that makes them second cousin once removed, trust me I have a huge family and in it this argument has been done to death:)

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 19, 2005.


OK, not going to get into this whole thread, but how does this whole first cousin once removed, second cousin twice removed thing work? What are my cousin's children to me and what are they to my children? I have a relative..we can't prove it because records were destroyed in Ireland, but we think my great, great grandmother was her great, great, great grandmother. I know we would be related very distantly, but how many times removed? Also, this lady looks identical to my great, great grandmother's photo. Tripped us out when we saw it. She moved here from Ireland (she is 37yo) and there has always been a special connection with us. Her dad also died when she was 17 yo like mine and I was there for her. When we are together there is a comfort there that is hard to explain. She once referred to me as her soul sister that God sent her. :o) Once when I saw her tilt her head back and laugh she reminded me of a cousin. That is when I started asking about her family tree and we learned we have the same family name. Any who..would appreciate the education on this once, twice removed stuff. :o)

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), January 19, 2005.


Cousin (a.k.a "first cousin") Your first cousins are the people in your family who have two of the same grandparents as you. In other words, they are the children of your aunts and uncles.

------Second Cousin Your second cousins are the people in your family who have the same great-grandparents as you, but not the same grandparents. ------

Third, Fourth, and Fifth Cousins Your third cousins have the same great-great-grandparents, fourth cousins have the same great-great-great-grandparents, and so on.

Removed When the word "removed" is used to describe a relationship, it indicates that the two people are from different generations. You and your first cousins are in the same generation (two generations younger than your grandparents), so the word "removed" is not used to describe your relationship.

The words "once removed" mean that there is a difference of one generation. For example, your mother's first cousin is your first cousin, once removed. This is because your mother's first cousin is one generation younger than your grandparents and you are two generations younger than your grandparents. This one-generation difference equals "once removed."

Twice removed means that there is a two-generation difference. You are two generations younger than a first cousin of your grandmother, so you and your grandmother's first cousin are first cousins, twice removed.

-----HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, KAT... we're both right, thanks for "schooling" me.------

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 19, 2005.


Thank you. :o)

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), January 19, 2005.


Thanks very much, Steve. I don't take offense at David@excite. He's been very gracious to me over the years especially in praying for me and my family. I don't see his jumping on me as an attack, more like yelling at a friend in frustration. He'd prefer that I were Catholic, which I understand. But God has different plans for me right now.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 19, 2005.


Despite how legal or illegal it may or may not be...dude...she's your cousin! That's pretty gross.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 18, 2005.

I follow Anti-Bush & Zarove !!

So Jerry , it's really toooo close !!!! You can become very good friends , but nothing more !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 19, 2005.


thanks for your answers

i really don't feel bad about this and she doesn't also and it's even not sinfull,so why should i bother?

what does that matter if she is my far cousin or not

i think i am really in love with her now i feel it's really really working out between us

so i think it would be dumb to ***** this up,just because she is some far cousin and it is also big quiencidence that i know that i have a cousin in the usa,so this could also happen without knowing this

-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 20, 2005.


I have an acquaintance who married a 2nd cousin in the Catholic Church.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 20, 2005.

"UMM......NO Her Grandmothers child and his grandfathers child are cousins. She would be his father/mothers second cousin and he would be her mother/fathers second cousing, so that makes them second cousin once removed, trust me I have a huge family and in it this argument has been done to death:) "

Umm, no, Kat, you're still mistaken. Your cousin's child is your first cousin once removed. Jerry and the girl are second cousins, because their grandparents are siblings.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), January 20, 2005.


UMM...Yes! I know that now, I had a moment of ignorant stupidity....I was wrong I apoligize

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 20, 2005.

I have those moments too, sometimes they last for days!

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), January 21, 2005.

ey is touching(not masturbation) each other at intimate places also counts as sex?

and what about oral sex? and manual sex? is this also fornication if you do it before you are married or not?

bill clinton says that's it's not,but i'm not 100% sure if he is correct and he isn't a christian expert i think so i ask you guys

-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 21, 2005.


Jesus taught us that just thinking about sex with a married woman is committing adultery with her in your mind and is indeed sinful. So we can extrapolate that to answer your question, 'yes' touching each other with hands or mouth is indeed serious sin even if it's not fornication, it's a form of sexual immorality and therefore wrong.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 21, 2005.


Thanks David B. I just read your post.

Its been a little over 3 years since the accident with your wife and child. Hope your wife is 100% by now.

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), January 21, 2005.


Yes, thanks for asking. She's healthy and strong chasing around our 8 month old Daniel and we're blessed beyond belief for the Lord's grace.

God bless you sir.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 21, 2005.


does touching her breasts also count as sex?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 22, 2005.

Ahem.

I'd like to reiterate the fact that, dude, she's your cousin. That's nasty. There's plenty of chicks out there who are not, in fact, your cousins. Pick one.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 22, 2005.


Also- if you were to marry and have children, I believe there is a greater chance for genetic influences to create possible negative traits to occur that can affect the health and development of the child. Although I believe at the 2nd cousin level these chances are greatly reduced compared to say-- first cousins.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 22, 2005.

this is true,however i'm not sure how much reduced it is but i don't think that jerry is plannig to have kids now,he's just 18...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 22, 2005.

yes, intimate touching is considered sex, not fornication, but it is foreplay and therefore part of sex.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 22, 2005.


To the original poster,

You and your cousin are what are called "kissin' cousins" and it is not incest.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), January 23, 2005.


Jerry,

Yes you can marry your 2nd cousin, in fact you can marry your 1st cousin once removed or your 1st cousin with a dispensation.

Any and all sexual activity (involving the stimulation of the sex organs in any way) is sinful if the couple is not (at least presumed) validly married.

2nd Degree = Siblings 3rd Degree = Uncle/Aunt/Niece/Nephew 4th Degree = 1st Cousins 5th Degree = 1st Cousins Once Removed 6th Degree = 2nd Cousins etc.

Trust me on this one, I was the only one in my Canon Law class to get it correct.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 13, 2005.


Rina, you told us that "WELLLLLLLLLLLLLL... according to my dictionary, canon law and commom law agree on the whole relationship computation. civil law is a bit different, it considers you not as closely related to someone than the other two laws." And you told us that "canon law doesn't go up and around family lines to reach the degrees, it counts them horizontally" and that "canon law says that your second cousin is 3 degrees away from you because it counts the degrees laterally." Thus, you concluded that "basically, second cousins are a no no."

Unfortunately, you trusted the dictionary, which is no longer correct. According to what I have read, the comment your dictionary makes was true under the 1917 Code of Canon Law, but no longer under the 1983 Code, when the terminology of "degrees" began to be understood the same way as in civil law. That's why John Gecik, Jim Furst, and Fr. Paul were right to say that the marriage of second cousins (6th degree of consanguinity) is OK without a dispensation.

-- (B@Chaste.edu), February 13, 2005.


[§2 In the collateral line, it is invalid up to the fourth degree inclusive. --Paul]

B chaste, i saw this information and grabbed a dictionary to find out what this meant.

[Unfortunately, you trusted the dictionary, which is no longer correct.--B chaste]

God forbid that I actually used a dictionary. Funny thing, I have a few different dictionaries and this one was updated in 1983, i guess it was updated before the canon was. i hope my two cents was at the least informative, even though it was slightly outdated. outdated for like less than a year i take it. [According to what I have read, the comment your dictionary makes was true under the 1917 Code of Canon Law, but no longer under the 1983 Code, when the terminology of "degrees" began to be understood the same way as in civil law. -- B chaste]

That makes me think... WHY? who would purposely want to marry a second cousin? why did the church change their views on second cousins?

[That's why John Gecik, Jim Furst, and Fr. Paul were right to say that the marriage of second cousins (6th degree of consanguinity) is OK without a dispensation. --B chaste]

Then i thank them for their opinions, however, they still didn't explain the why's and how's of the degrees in a geneology and that is what i attempted to do. SORRY for being wrong folks.

-- Rina (emailmarina@yahool.com), February 13, 2005.


Rina,

I "didn't explain the why's and how's of the degrees in a geneology"? Then what is 2nd Degree = Siblings 3rd Degree = Uncle/Aunt/Niece/Nephew 4th Degree = 1st Cousins 5th Degree = 1st Cousins Once Removed 6th Degree = 2nd Cousins etc.?

If you mean "why" as in 'Why do they do it that way?' the answer is because the Church (for Her part) decided that was the way they would do it. The degrees matter not when we use the common terms of "1st Cousin" etc. The Church probably moved to the same method of calculation as the state in order to curb any confusion.

And if I may, my post is more than mere "opinion". I trust that is not what you were inferring.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 14, 2005.


Rina, I want to apologize for forgetting, in my previous message, to thank you for your original message. Though it did contain that inadvertent flaw about Canon Law, I found your words extremely interesting and helpful.

You are now asking, "WHY? who would purposely want to marry a second cousin? why did the church change their views on second cousins?"

I'm not aware of the Church having publicly divulged why it changed Canon Law in this regard. In my opinion, nowadays second cousins are not usually such "close" relatives that a marriage between them would seem scandalous. I'd bet that most people are in the same situation that I am in, not having ever met my second cousins nor even knowing if I have any! ;-)

I suspect that, prior to the new Code in 1983, it was far more common for people (who lived much more insular lives, with multiple generations in small towns) to know their second cousins and to feel that it would be improper to treat them as "love interests." Now, however, people are so transient (following jobs out of town, for example), that some kids rarely if ever see even their FIRST cousins, never mind their SECOND cousins. I figure that this fact makes marriages between such relatives seem less "improper" than before. It could be true also that, by 1983, the Church felt assured by geneticists that it was safe for second cousins (and perhaps even first cousins) to marry.

-- (B@Chaste.edu), February 14, 2005.


One thing to add, the distaste shown for marriages between cousins is cultural. There are many cultures that would say 'What are you talking about?'

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 14, 2005.

To All: This has been most entertaining to read. I had a few questions about cousins marrying eachother and you answered my questions to a "t". YOu are an inspiration to me and my cousin who have sex on a deep and spiritual level. Although we are second cousins we are deeply in love with one another and enjoy to provide one another with sexual pleasure as much as eachother desires. I am part of the Catholic Church, and have been for many years, and do not find anything wrong with this, even though we are cousins and are not married, which hopefully we will be as soon as possible. We don't care what people think, our Priest has agreed to fight for us, he has been our biggest support system. And we thank God every night for bringing him into our lives. I am just curious what everyone thinks of this situation, is it really a sin if we love eachother as much as we do?? Go Jerry, if you love her, go to her. Show her your love, just as i have done and now i am the happ happ happiest man on earth and will be for eternity, even in heaven we will be together, for i know GOd supports us tremendously, he speaks to me every night, and tells me to follow my heart!!!! Feel free to write me back..thanks for listening!!

-- Quinton (quincythecat77@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.

Hate to burst your bubble, but you are in mortal sin.

"enjoy to provide one another with sexual pleasure as much as eachother desires. [...] and do not find anything wrong with this, even though we are cousins and are not married

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.


Quinton,

Masturbation is a sin -EVEN, if you think of your hand as a cousin. As to your fantasies of marrying your hand -I suggest you seek therapy.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), March 08, 2005.


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