Values voters : LUSENET : A.M.E. Today Discussion : One Thread

Greetings AME's! Just a quick stop by to ask a question. I only have a few hours before I have to hop a plane so I'll see most of your answers Friday.

I'm sure you've all read about the "values voters" (read evangelical Christians) who supposedly put Bush back in the White House. That's debatable of course, but that's the way the media spun it.

I assume most of you voted for Kerry. What was your reaction when you saw so many of your Christian brothers and sisters voting diffently than you did?

Were you bewildered? Angry? Disgusted? Didn't care at all? Also, did you see them as misguided? Lousy Christians? Deceived by satan? Merely a difference of opinion?

As I've said before this board is unique in that it has numbers of political liberals who are at the same time doctrinally conservative Christians. Generally the two don't go together so I'm curious about your opinion.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2005


This is TOO easy, Infamous RP!

'It is appalling that the most segregated hour of Christian America is eleven o'clock on Sunday morning, the same hour when many are standing to sing: "In Christ There Is No East Nor West." ~Martin Luther King, Jr., Stride Toward Freedom: The Montgomery Story, 1958'

Let us remember that Christianity has been used to justify Black Slavery, Segregation, Apartheid, anti-Semitism and genocide against indigenous populations (Native Americans, Aborigines, Moros, Micronesians, etc).

Indeed, there is little theological difference between the positions taken by the Baptist General Convention of Texas (a "mainstream" Southern Baptist unit) and those taken by the "Christian Identity" movement (an FBI-recoginized hate group).

Certainly, many people are thrown off because of "right-wing" churches advancing the cause of Israel recently, but most people don't realize that they do so in hopes that, by hastening Israel's control of the Middle East, these "right wingers" hope to foster in the Messianic Age which will result in the destruction of the Jews.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2005

Further (to answer your question),

I was not surprised in the least. One of my most enduring memories from 1977 (when I became politically aware) when a black man attempted to join the church where President Jimmy Carter taught Sunday School. The congregation - which had never had a black member - voted to reject his membership.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2005

Uhhhhh, thanks for the answer. As close as I can figure, you think the evangelicals are not Christians at all. Or they're really bad ones. Sorta like the KKK. I think that's what you meant.

OK, anyone else?

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2005

Thank you RP for finally admitting that you are a part of that wing of Christianity that embraces the KKK. I always believed that your Christianity such that it is, is only secondary to your Racist beliefs. This is a good year! Now board we know.

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2005

OK, that's two who believe there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the evangelical community and the KKK. Wow!

Any others with this belief? What about another opinion?

Don't forget the other question. What was your reaction to the report the so-called "values voters" were a decisive factor for Bush?

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2005


Among the ideas of the Founding Fathers was that the American Public by and large were too unintelligent and uninformed to elect a President. Thus, they designed the government to be a Republic rather than a true Democracy. They also realized the potential for tyranny that majorities could exert in a democratic government, and tried to guard against the exploitation of a minority by a majority in several ways.

The Founders also wanted to guard against the emergence of Special Interest Groups who might support candidates based on their own political or religious agendas etc., to the exclusion of those citizens whose beliefs were different from those held by such Special Interest Groups.

We now see this happening in our present Federal Government, with the Church attempting to control the Government and Government dictating its agenda to the Church. Hence what is deemed as “Faith Based Initiatives.”

When the Church and State become ONE rather than TWO separate entities, neither has the power or ability to say to the other “You are Wrong.” The result is what the Founding Fathers deemed as political and majority tyranny.

As relates to the election of a President the Electoral College was instituted as a check and balance against majority tyranny and the agendas espoused by special interest groups, so that the Office of the President might represent All the People rather than just a few or a certain group of them.

While the Electoral College might choose the President chosen by the vote of the people it was not bound to it, when the choice of the people was deemed to be against what was good for ALL. If no candidate received a majority of Electoral College votes, the House of Representatives was then allowed to choose the President.

John Quincy Adam’s election by the House of Representatives instead of Andrew Jackson caused quite a stir. And in modern times we have reversed this process completely by the choosing of electors based on the popular vote. I personally believe this to be a mistake and that what we have done is wrong.

The last few elections have caused me to revisit and explore our government as the Founding Fathers envisioned it. Personally I believe the Founding Father were absolutely correct in their assessment, especially as relates to majority tyranny and special interest groups. It would seem to me that the Founding Fathers had a BETTER IDEA and perhaps we need to restore the election of the Presidency to the way they envisioned it.

Then and only then will the Office of the President serve ALL the people rather than just a divided fraction of them. What we presently see in our governmental structure also hints at what Biblical scholars deem as “NEW WORLD ORDER” government.

It is my prayer that we will hasten to correct the obvious error we have made, so that Government of the people, by the people and for the people, (e. g. to say ALL the people) shall not perish from the earth.”

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2005

Good thoughts Bro Matthews. I'm not seeing where my questions were answered though. My interest is the disconnect between the evangelical church, which largely voted for Bush, and the African- American church which largely didn't. What are your personal reactions to this, and personal opinions of them?

I regard the evangelical movement as the closest thing to Biblical Christianity today. It has many many faults, but compared to the Catholic church and liberal mainline denominations...well let's just say there's no comparison. They lost it long ago, though I hasten to add there are many wonderful individual believers and churches in those denominations.

The mainline denominations voted their values (Democrat), and the evangelicals voted theirs (Republican).

Straddling this gap in the United States is the African American church. You're nearly identical to the evangelicals theologically, but you're quite different politcally. I don't think most AME's would line up with the United Methodists or Episcopalians as pro-gay marriage or pro-abortion, but most of you will vote for the Democrats right along with them.

So we have an interesting situation: The American Bible-believing church goes one way politically, while their African-American breatheren go the other. Curious, eh? I'm interested in hearing your personal opinions of us (not just me, I know that) and your personal reactions as you see your theological fellows go a different political direction.

So far the first two to reply indicated they consider evangelicals little different than the KKK, and they were little surprised we voted like the heathens we are for the evil Republicans.

Is this the majority view of the AME??? I'm thinking of posting the results of this on another Christian discussion board, so if anyone feels differently than these two I need to know. And yes I am aware there are a few Republicans here. I consider them fellow evangelicals.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2005

RP: Evangelical Christians are a sub-set of Christians. The so-called religious right is also a sub-set as is the left, etc. The African Methodist Episcopal Church is a denomination a subset of methodism, just as the Southern Baptists Convention is a subset of baptists. All denominations have within them the left, the right, the centrists, the evangelicals, etc. So your questions make no sense.

Face it RP, you are speaking from a position of blindness; your mind is closed and you refuse to open up to the possibility that what you believe is inconsistent with reality. I hope that one day you will open your mind and let the revealing light of God in.

BE Blessed

pastor paris

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2005

I don't agree Bro Paris that the AME's, or any other African- American denomination aren't of one political mind. Sure, there will never be 100% among any group. I'm aware of some evangelicals who voted Democrat.

However I recall the poll on AME today main page in the 2000 election showed 70% of respondents voting for Al Gore. I didn't see a similar poll this time around, but I doubt it was much different. For all intents and purposes, that's a unified position.

I seem to remember 70% of evangelicals voted Republican this time out, and the commentators said that would be hard for any opposing candidate to overcome.

I'm aware of many of the reasons African-American voters vote differently than their brothers and sisters in the Lord. My query, which isn't being answered by many so far, is what is your personal reaction to this, and how do you personally view evangelicals?

So far only Rev Cager and Bro Gibson have answered, and they think evangelicals are racists and rotten Christians if they're saved at all.

Is this the mainstreme view of the AME? What's your view Pastor Paris?

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2005

RP my answer really applies only to you. And if you think you represent all evangelical Christians you think much too highly of yourself.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2005

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