Purgatory and Jesus

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What is the function of purgatory in relation to Jesus? I know purgatory doesn't make Jesus' sacrifice insufficient, but I'm curious to know how they fit together.

-- anonymous (anonymous@nonexistent.com), January 03, 2005

Answers

Purgatory certainly does not make Christ's sacrifice "insufficient" because it is only by Christ's sacrifice that one can be saved, and it is only by being saved through Christ's sacrifice that one can enter Purgatory. Purgatory is simply one step in our salvation by the blood of Christ, not something separate from or instead of His sacrifice. It would be pretty presumptuous for a person who lived a lackadaisical Christian life and who just managed to make the "cutoff" for salvation vs. damnation, to think he would immediately join the holiest of the saints before the throne of God at the moment of his death, along with those who had devoted their entire earthly existence to self-sacrifice in the service of God. Purgatory has nothing to do with any insufficiency on the part of Christ, but only insufficiency in our response to Him. Those who reject Him outright are lost. But those who walk with Him imperfectly and weakly, picking up the stains of worldly contamination as we walk, are by His mercy given the opportunity to be finally cleansed of all such contamination, so that we may enter into His presence pure and undefiled.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 03, 2005.

Dear Anonymous,

Perhaps purgatory is an experience of Jesus' cleansing, healing, burning, purifying Love--an *application* of His sacrifice to our lives so that we are totally transformed and remade. It is a process of burning away the dross of our lives so only the gold and silver remain. Receiving Christ's love into your life by faith and by means of the holy sacraments saves you (brings you into relationship with Him), but at some point He will bring the "new creation" to perfection in our lives. I mean, we're not perfect yet, right? We need transformation still. Whether that takes Him twenty years or "the twinkling of an eye," this wonderful transformation is traditionally called "purgatory". Read 1 Corinthians 3 about the "wood, hay and stubble" of our lives being burned away.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 03, 2005.


I thought wood hay and stubble refers to our works rather than our person.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), January 04, 2005.

Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing. (Matt 5: 25-26)

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Matt 12: 32)

For more biblical supportance of Purgatory see here or here

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), January 04, 2005.


Yes, wood hay and stubble are our works (which do follow us, as you remember from Revelation), but the passage as a whole reminds us that some "may be saved, but only as through fire." At any rate, the response of the beloved disciple John to the Risen Christ--"His face shone as the sun, His eyes burned as flames of fire, and I fell at His feet as one dead!"--as well as the response of Isaiah in chapter 6, indicate that coming into the Presence of the Living God (who is a consuming fire) is quite a shattering and transforming experience! We shall all give an account of our works, whether good or bad--and that might not be entirely comfortable. Thank the Lord, though, we are loved!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 06, 2005.


Where in the Bible is there mention of a place called Purgatory?

-- Matthew (mattprom1982@hotmail.com), January 12, 2005.

N kt good with following links, are you Mathew?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 12, 2005.

> "Where in the Bible is there mention of a place called Purgatory? "

A: Where in the Bible is there mention of the idea that all Christian truth can be found in the Bible? Obviously nowhere, since that idea didn't exist until 1,500 years later. Where in the Bible is there mention of a book called "The Bible"? Maybe you should have asked "does the Bible include any references to the doctrine of Purgatory as accepted by the early Church?" Yes. It does.

First, we know that not every person dies in a state of complete spiritual purity. Yet the Bible tells us that nothing tainted can come into God's presence (Rev 21:27). Therefore one must conclude either (1) that every person who is not in a state of perfect spiritual purity at the moment of death goes directly to hell, or (2) that God provides a means of final purification for those who have not rejected Him, but who are still tainted with the effects of sin, before they come into His presence. That means is called Purgatory - a place or state of final purgation, or purification.

Luke describes Jesus's metaphorical teaching about our final judgement ...

"For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent." (Luke 12:58-59)

The phrase "throw you into prison" could refer to hell - except for one thing. It speaks of getting out once we have paid what is due, and no-one gets out of hell, ever. Therefore it is clear that at judgment we are declared either lost or saved, but some of those who are saved do not enter heaven immediately, but only after they have been cleansed of the spiritual baggage they have brought with them.

After his death, Christ went to a place where the saved were waiting, and told them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them. (1 Pet. 3:19). These people were not in heaven, but obviously were not in hell. Were they in Purgatory? This is not certain; but it makes clear that a temporary place where the saved await their entrance into heaven was accepted by the early Church and does not in any way conflict with the Christian teaching of heaven and hell as the only final destinations.

Christ refers to sinners who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32). Obviously then forgiveness or purgation must be possible in the age to come (after death); otherwise this statement by Christ would be meaningless.

The Bible tells us that we will each be judged on the quality or completeness of our response to Christ . And what happens if a person has failed to respond fully, and has not done all Christ has called him to do? By the mercy of God he can still be saved! BUT "only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Fire is repeatedly used in Scripture as a metaphor for purification, the way impurities were burned out of gold. This passage is clearly speaking of something that happens after death. Where does this "fire-like" purification take place? Not in heaven certainly, since there is no suffering there, and "fire" obviously suggests suffering. But surely not in hell, since those in hell have no hope of salvation. The only possible place this passage could refer to is what we now call "Purgatory". Paul believed in it, or he would not have written the above.

I assume you are using an incomplete Protestant Bible, but if you were using the original Bible, the complete Bible used by every Christian on earth until a few hundred years ago, you could read the following ...

"... he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

This text indicates that the chosen people, even before the birth of Christ, prayed for those who had died, a practice which continued in the early Christian Church. We know this from multiple Christian writings of the second century and subsequent time points. Obviously there is no need to pray for people who are in heaven; and it is pointless to pray for people in hell. Therefore the Church's practice of praying for the dead from the very beginning reveals their belief that some of the deceased were in a place other than heaven or hell. This passage also indicates that the living can help the deceased by praying on their behalf - a truth that Christ's Church still teaches today, just like every belief of the Apostles and the early Church.



-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 12, 2005.


Great exposition of this truth, Paul. No one's ever said it better, that I can remember.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 12, 2005.

What exactly goes on in purgatory?

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 12, 2005.


Some souls from purgatory were permitted to manifest themselves to living humans. The souls from purgatory said they were very thirsty. Some left charred imprints of their hands on house walls.

-- J. Greene (jtg878@hotmail.com), January 13, 2005.

The Church says that souls get purified, and that they are helped by our prayers. Officially we don't have details of what purgatory is like. But it seems to be a place both of pain (realizing the enormity of the sins of our life) and of joy (knowing we are saved and God loves us and will purify and cleanse us).

Knowing we will someday see God face to face should make us want to be the very best, to let him love us and transform us, and to love him and others in return.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 13, 2005.


is it not amazing, that Jesus, or any of the apostles did not even mention a single thing about purgatory, or even a place where we have to wait before we have to enter heaven. Remember the thief, next to Jesus on the cross, Jesus never mention that he must serve time in purgatory, before he can enter heaven. Jesus say that He would see him in heaven.

-- nolan (nolannaicker@webmail.co.za), January 25, 2005.

It's not amazing. The concept of purification of souls, and prayer for the dead, was known and believed by all Hebrews of Christ's era. Therefore, He didn't have to teach us about it. It was already accepted.

We never see in the gospel narratives any reference to Jesus being ill. Or to His ever singing a song. Are we to assume Jesus didn't know how to swim, since He walked on water? No. You probably think so.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 25, 2005.


Actually the Bible does say that Jesus descended into a place where people were waiting to enter heaven. But your comment of course is simply a reflection of your acceptance of the untenable manmade tradition of Sola Scriptura. If you think that everything can be found in the Bible you are bound to have difficulties with many truths God has revealed.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 25, 2005.


Is purgatory defined in ex-cathedra ? If not, how binding upon the souls of catholics is belief of such a doctrine?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), January 26, 2005.

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