Choosing between Catholic or Christian

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Hell everyone i am 16 and extremely confused. I was born and raised with the Roman Catholic religion. Have always and continued to attend Catholic school and ive always been strong about my faith. So a month and half ago i met some people at a mcdonalds, age ranging between 17 and 21. They came up to talk to me and told me their stories on how they were so low but found God thru the Christian church. So they invited me to see a show in the Christian church and i went and it was about God and that was nice, but soon i realized every single little thing was about God. Any thing they would say would have to deal with God, i saw it as an extreme. But ive gotten attached to them and learned a lot and realized that they take the Bible literally which i do not, they would also refrain from listening to mainstream music or horror movies because of the negativity. but i accepted that n decided to attend their church RIGHT AFTER i finished my mass at the Catholic Church. the only reason i attend is because of the passion they have for our Lord. But their would still be conflicts and i understood and accepted that but...... just recently one told me that the general Catholic pop. will go to hell for the simple reason of praying to the Virgin Mary and to other saints, they said we worship them as if their our Gods and i was extremely offended but at the same time, wondering... and now im CONFUSED on what to do and its itching at me....WHAT SHOULD I DO!! thanks///David

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004

Answers

David, you should know that the Catholic Church is THE Christian Church. All Christians are either Catholics or belong to groups which separated and grew out of and away from the Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is absurd nonsense to speak of "choosing between Catholic or Christian". As for the people you met at mcdonalds, their distortions of Christian beliefs about the Bible and their foul calumnies against Catholics should show you that that for all their continuous talk about God, they are hardly deserving of the name Christian. Get away from them NOW, until you have learned enough about your faith so that you can confidently confront their false man- made teaching.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

thank you....... i personally have always, without any telling me, thought why should i pray to the Virgin Mary or to another saint when i could just go and talk to my Lord directly and to confess sins to a priest i also wondered about....this is a human being just like me, why cant i just ask God directly to forgive me for my sins....n for all the different kinds of prayers, they dont come from the heart, its just repeating what another person wants you to read...isnt better to just to talk to God as your friend??

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004.

David..at first glance, these other young people would appear to be incredibly nice..and anyone who would spend their time going to fast food places just to talk to other kids about God has to be on the right track, eh? Yet, if they meet up with someone such as yourself who ALREADY attends church faithfully, and is ALREADY a Christian, then why the big push to separate you from your faith?

There are tons of teens out there in the world who don't believe in Christ, so why try to pull one away from his faith?

It is because their church has taught them that Catholics are all going to hell in the proverbial basket and they want to "save" you.

Suggestion..talk to your priest ASAP..get into your faith and get your own answers..get to KNOW your faith inside out and backwards. The answers are there. You need more one-on-one, not from a forum. In the meantime, while you ARE confused, don't hang with kids who are against your own faith..learn your own faith FIRST, then hang out with anyone you want to.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004.


David, probably somebody did “tell” you those things, even if you don’t remember who or when it was, because they are the standard lines of attack on Christ’s Church used by protestant fundamentalists. You will find many full and excellent answers to those questions in the archived threads, but in brief:

“why should i pray to the Virgin Mary or to another saint when i could just go and talk to my Lord directly”

When someone speaks of praying “TO” Our Lady and the Saints, it is just bad grammar (laziness). He means he is asking them to pray FOR him. Just as I ask everyone who reads my posts to pray for me. In the case of Our Lady and the Saints, we know they are directly in God’s presence in Heaven. Read in the Gospels how Jesus even changed the Divine plan for when He would perform His first miracle, just because Our Lady asked Him to! He will surely not refuse her.

“to confess sins to a priest i also wondered about....this is a human being just like me, why cant i just ask God directly to forgive me for my sins”

We do ask God (in our own minds) of course, and that was all that people COULD do, until Jesus came and founded the Church and gave its first priests the Sacrament of Reconciliation, saying “whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven”. So that now we can actually KNOW we are forgiven. What a wonderful blessing God has given us!

“all the different kinds of prayers, they dont come from the heart, its just repeating what another person wants you to read...isnt better to just to talk to God as your friend?”

It’s great to talk to God as your friend, because He is the best Friend you have. But sometimes what we want to say is so deep and personal and complicated that we can’t think of the right words. That’s why we do thinks like buy our friends, relatives and lovers, greeting cards or poems that express what we really want to say, but written by someone else. And when we pray TOGETHER, as Jesus commanded us to, obviously we have to have the prayers written down so that we all say the same thing. Especially when we come together to celebrate the Mass and receive the sacrament of the Eucharist which He instituted and commanded us to do. And I imagine the fundamentalists you met have demanded that you read, memorize and repeat certain passages from their Bibles – isn’t that “just repeating what another person wants you to read”?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.


Hi David, Everyone has given you really good advice. I was in protestant fundamentalism for many years, and Lesley is right on the money.

There are many many problems with protestantism that you are not seeing right now, and probably wouldn't see for many years. The structure of protestantism is based on protest, or rebellion, and that rebellion is a constant source of conflict in protestant churches, though many times it is masked beneath cheery smiles, and "Jesus loves you" mantras on the tongues of the members.

I suggest you do as the others have suggested. You may also try going on a retreat weekend for Catholic youths, or visiting a charismatic Catholic church. You will find that there are many Catholic youths that are fired up for their faith too!

Lord, please bring some zealous Catholic youths into the life of this young man. Help him find the answers he is seeking. Pour forth your wisdom and discernment upon him. Amen.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2004.



Hey David. Perhaps thest sites could help you better understand and defend the Catholic Church and Her Doctrines.

http://users.binary.net/poly carp/

http://w ww.newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock.htm

Cathol ic Answers

In the Catholic Answers site. Look at the Library to the Left, just click on one of the topics.

Dave, learn your faith well.The majority of Catholics who convert to protestantism and their heresies, were easily seduced because of their ignorance in their understanding of Catholic Doctrine.

God Bless.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), December 30, 2004.


I would also recommend Patrick Madrid's Surprised by Truth series and Scott Hahn's Rome Sweet Home

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), December 31, 2004.

Guys this was my first time on here and i really found a lot of great advice, thank you so much..you guys are so helpful...but ill be back with more questions :)

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

...i was extremely offended but at the same time, wondering... and now im CONFUSED on what to do and its itching at me....WHAT SHOULD I DO!!

David,

Let me add this regarding the "people" you met:

2 John 9-11

Anyone who is so "progressive" as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;

for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

Anyone who is so "progressive": literally, "Anyone who goes ahead." Some gnostic groups held the doctrine of the Christ come in the flesh to be a first step in belief, which the more advanced and spiritual believer surpassed and abandoned in his knowledge of the spiritual Christ. The author affirms that fellowship with God may be gained only by holding to the complete doctrine of Jesus Christ ( 1 John 2:22-23; 4:2; 5:5-6).

At this time false teachers were considered so dangerous and divisive as to be shunned completely. From this description they seem to be wandering preachers. We see here a natural suspicion of early Christians concerning such itinerants and can envisage the problems faced by missionaries such as those mentioned in 3 John 1:10.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 31, 2004.


at this point id like to hear all sides, tom....email me

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.


Dear David:
You'll always be a Catholic, no matter how badly you stray from the doctrines of Christ's apostles. No other Christian sect is able-- or willing, to teach us an error-free Christianity. They would if they could; nobody questions all the good intentions. But Jesus gave us ONE Church. You belong to her from your baptism until death.

Baptism places on your immortal soul an imprint; something like Christ's ''sign''. It's called the baptismal character and it can't be removed, not even if --God forbid, you go to hell damned.

Somewhere I have read that a damned soul who suffers eternally in hell will still have that sign of his/her baptism on it; never to fade, turned darker. This baptismal sign will cause that soul even greater sorrow than all others in hell. All eyes will see and know, you were saved by Christ's passion, death and resurrection; but you gave it away. You gave up your true faith in Jesus; you failed to trust Him. No other pain in hell will compare to this one.

Guard your salvation, and don't let anybody ''convert'' your soul. Take your Catholic faith DEADLY SERIOUS, David. Life is only smoke; it's passing. From 16 to 60 is going to seem a blur; let me tell you.

Go all the way. Give all your heart and soul to Jesus Christ; not only with the intellect, but emotion and fire. Keep sin OUT of your life. You are confronted especially in your youth by the three great temptations: the World, the Flesh and the Devil. Be ready for them, by loving Our Holy Redeemer with all the power in you.

Study your Catholic faith in depth. God wants you to; He doesn't appreciate indifference. Jesus said if I'm lukewarm He will vomit me out of his mouth. That tells the story, wouldn't you say? Above all-- Go to His House. You know exactly where it is, in this world. Where He dwells amidst the ones who love Him. The Church of our fathers.

Not a similar church where they're CALLED Christians, all of whom had ancestors called Catholics. Who failed to guard their faith against this world. David- -they're in deep trouble. Just implore God's mercy for their souls. Pray for them to return to Him. YOU may have that key to their salvation.

God bless you, Young Catholic. Jesus loves His children, and to Jesus you're only a child now. He'll bring you to maturity as a saint if you love Him with all your heart.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 31, 2004.


One of the best ways to defend your faith (from a Jewish friend, but anyone that has any faith in these times should have a good defense, and I feel is on my side) is to know your faith very well, and know the probable attacker's faith at least as well as they do. (seeing as there are several main themes in the protestant variations, this would not take as long as knowing each variation, but longer than knowing only one church)

Story from my Friend: Fundy team came to her house: old guy, young lady. She started talking to the young lady about how her religion was female friendly: female lineage, etc. Gets into this. Old guy does emergency type polite leave lest the converters get converted.

In any case, knowing the standard Catholic counters to Protestant theology would be an excellent and smart thing to do.

In my day the Catholic Catachism could be written on a few pages. And the answers given were crud, and any questions were 'answered' by refering back to the Catachism. This so stunk that it was a major reason for me to drift away. These days you have the best Catachism in all of christendom. Greatly informative. Buy one, read as many parts of it as you can. My objections to it are elsewhere, and should remain so for this thread.

Sean

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.


i'm not gonna post it cos it will be deleted anyway

Nothing here get's deleted if asked or said in a respectfull manner. Your jumping obiviously conclusions sir. Why don't you take one disagreemant at a time with the Churh and go from there. But dont lay out "a million" of these things that are wrong with the Church at once and expect to be answered efficiently. It seems you just want to make an impression with a one on one discussion with David who is just now wanting to better learn how to defend the Bride of Christ.

Shame on you.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), December 31, 2004.


In my day the Catholic Catachism could be written on a few pages. And the answers given were crud, and any questions were 'answered' by refering back to the Catachism.

What in the heck are you talking about Sean? Catechism on a few pages?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 31, 2004.


David,

Don't forget you're not alone on your journey. You have friends here willing to help, and also to pray for you. The saints in heaven are praying for you too. There are many objections to the Catholic faith, but the replies are out there if you look. DJ has provided some great links.

Don't forget the early Church fathers who are great historical witnesses to the faith.

What gave me a jump start on my journey was some of the free CDs from the Mary Foundation. You can see what they have at http://www.catholicity.com/maryfoundation/. Father John Corapi and Father Larry are a pleasure to listen to, as are the other speakers.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 31, 2004.



And here's my favorite website, probably more instrumental that any other. It is a website contained quotes from the Fathers dating all the way back to 1st century Christianity, broken down by topic. I found the Church Fathers were CATHOLIC TO THE CORE! The venerated Mary, they prayed to the Saints, they held to the doctrine of the Holy Eucharist. It was a huge shock to find out that I was the one OFF THE BEATEN PATH! (Your friends would be shocked too. Believe me, if they only knew)

Someone said "To be steeped in history is to be cease being Protestant!" -- Cardinal Newman, I think -- and so it is true!

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm Here's the site:

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2004.


david,

the truth is like a beautiful glass scuplture, it can be shattered with a single stroke, while a lie embraced wholeheartedly is nearly invincible.

yes, these people have passion, great passion, for their faith, but the question is do they have TRUTH??? some, yes, obviously... but the completeness of truth lies in the catholic faith. your friends are well intentioned, but they are simply without the fulness of truth. there is something wrong with a 'friendship' that starts on the premise that you are damned to hell... they have NO place to judge your spiritual status with God. i note that you say you are devout, and yet you are still uneducated about your faith. the very tone of your posts is adversarial, which says to me that your catholic morality teacher hasnt been doing her job in properly educating you to the faith. take some time here to learn from our resident deacon, paul m, and many others who assuredly know more about catholicism than most highschool teachers do.

as to your expressed concerns...

Prayer to Mary and the Saints: to pray is to entreat, that is, to ask. when we pray to God, we ask of God's providence to grant us something. when we pray to the saints, we ask them to pray for us for God's providence. when we ask our friends to pray for us, we do the same thing, we pray that our friends will pray for us. if the pray to the saints is wrong, then most assuredly everyone on this forum is in the wrong, everyone of your supposed protestant 'friends' is in the wrong if they have ever prayed for another person, and Jesus Himself is wrong for having talked with moses and elijah, providing an example of the communion of saints, and for commanding us to pray for one another. since i cannot believe Jesus is in the wrong, i must accept that His example was perfect. POINT TWO: God commands us to pray for one another. that duty to pray for one another DOES NOT END WITH PHYSICAL DEATH. the saints are VERY MUCH alive in heaven, and still bear the command to pray for their fellow man. as such, the saints MUST be praying for us. POINT THREE: we do NOT worship the saints, virgin mary included. in catholicism the depth of worship is amazing, found in the seven sacraments and most especially vested in the Holy Communion. to protestants, the only form of worship available is prayer, and as such, they do not understand the fundamental difference between prayer and true worship. your friends are most zealous, while at the same time they only scratch the surface of true faith. i would be sad for them if i were you.

Confession to a priest: As has been noted, Jesus Himself commanded the apostles to take confessions and gave them the power to forgive sins. the power of the apostles is passed on to the appostles of today, the bishopry of the catholic church. as such the priests derive the power to forgive sins and God, if the contrition is true, forgives them as well, as He promised us He would do. to assert that the apostles have no power to forgive sins is to doubt the word of God itself.

Praying prayers which are memorized: more than providing a means of mass prayers together, the prayers which are memorized reenforce one simple fact... that our bond with God does not hinge in the slightest on the words of our prayers, but rather with the spiritual connection through the emotion, desire, and contrition in our hearts when we pray. if all that a person prays is the words, then their relationship with God is severely lacking the spiritual aspect. when you pray, strive deeper than the words and FEEL what you need, share that FEELING with God... because THAT is a true relationship with Him.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 31, 2004.


at this point id like to hear all sides...

David,

I suggest your time would be better spent gaining understanding inwhat the Church teaches. Faith is not a concept -it is a decision and or action in each moment. Faith seeking Understanding is the 'proper' method -not the reverse.

Additionally, if you must reconcile all the other 'religions' I would suggest you cut to the chase by first finding out when and by who they were founded and then specifically what one or several major difference(s) were that precipitated thier formation or need to split from the Truth as the Church teaches. In the specific difference(s) you will find contradictions when compared to Church teaching. Consequently, if Truth is lacking in any regard the other 'religion' is false.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 31, 2004.


David, what does this church have to offer besides religious fervor? The next time you go, put aside the fanaticism and take note of what there is. Nothing. It is a watered down version of the truth with tons of untruth mixed in. You can bring this religious fervor into the Catholic Church, where you can mix fervor with 100% truth.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

"What in the heck are you talking about Sean? Catechism on a few pages?"

Well back in 1960 or so, pre or just around Vatican II, it was. Somewhere around 2 or at most 4 pages. No convicing, just believe this, no jusitification, not anything but a statement of belief, and covering just a bit more than the Nicean (spelling?) creed. Not covering anything a inquiring youngster would like to talk about. One of the disapointments for me was finding something of that length was the catachism of the Epsicopal varient. Maybe pretty much the exact thing, if I recall the original correctly. There is an effort to go beyond that document in my varient, but it would be hard to come close to the Church's excellent resource.

Wishing David well in his faith journey,

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.


David,

I remember the first time I found a group that had the fire of God about their faith, that did not treat the Sunday worship as a chore, that had more life in them and more participation than a group attending a movie -- actually if some congregations get as interested as a group of movie goers I would be a vast improvement. It was a fundy group in Kansas. Their theology was almost fasist. Anyone not with us is going to Hell type. But with the spirit in them, they were ignoring the bad parts of their faith and living the true parts. I was both appalled and impressed. They did door to door, they were truely involved in worship. They were great and cool.

They were only as knowledgable and wise as their pastor and elders. This did pose strong limits on their ability to progress intelectually, not that those limits seemed to be relevent to them.

The lack of depth of their theology eventually got to me, as well as other things. But they did leave an impression on me. John Michael's groop sometimes gets into that level, and with the Catholic Church's theology basis behind it. And the Charasmiatic Catholic masses I have attended are really Spirit filled and very lifting.

The Catholic Church's umbrella is wide and has many different expressions of worship and faith. Look and you can find something that will resonate with you.

Again, good luck on a life long faith growing journey,

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.


David,

Those protesting protestants do not believe in the Holy Eucharist -- the Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Every time you partake of the Sacred Host, you are having the most intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ Himself. The Mass is the most perfect form of prayer -- infinitely better than Kumbaya. By giving up the Sacred Host, the protestants rejected the most precious gift of God.

They also rejected Mary, Our Blessed Mother, our Intercessor. She shows us how to best love Jesus.

They also rejected the Authority of St. Peter's Successor -- the Pope -- the one and only Shepherd on earth, the Vicar of Christ, our visible Unity.

Do not get enticed by the many lies of the protestors. Catholic Teachings are eternally true. We worship God in a solemn and sober manner; not in an arrogant and hysterical way.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), January 01, 2005.


Personaly, I would not even bother on the ignorance of "Tom, Jerrys brother," he is most likely as ignorant and AROGANT as his friend "sdqa," though I am not saying this out of anger, but from all their posts lately I think it's pretty clear.

David, many in here are giving you exellent advice. I too one was Protestant, as well as ANTI-Catholic! I preached to (usualy unlearned Catholics like yourself) Catholics and believed they were all going to hell. That was one great relief of a sin when I finaly became Catholic and confessed it to a priest. Catholicism is THE CHURCH! Learn about your faith. You'll find MOST doctrines WELL within scripture and a FEW grounded in scripture. Study church history and you'll be amazed as well.

It's pretty sad today how some Protestants even deny ALL of Church history and stick to their DANGEROUS notion of "Bible Alone." Ya, lets see how FARTHER fetched we can come too and what other MORAL doctrines we can change. I have even heard people quote from the Bible verses that THEY interpret to justify abortion. That complete NONESENSE. Check this this out David and God give you peace my friend:) http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), January 01, 2005.


Hello David,

I saw your other post in which you had some questions about Protestantism and Catholicism. I was raised Protestant and am in the process of converting to Catholic right now. (By the way, Protestants and Catholics are both Christian.) I studied a lot from Scripture, view of both Protestant and Catholic apologists, and the early Church fathers. I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ, and Christ established that authority on St. Peter, the Rock (read Matthew 16). You, my friend, belong to the Church with the direct apostolic line back to Christ. I am converting, because the Catholic Church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ.

I heard Catholic apologist (and former Protestant pastor) Jeff Cavins say something that I loved, and I will capture the gist of it here. There is no praise song, no fellowship gathering, no hymn, no coffee hour, no fervent community, nothing... that I would trade for intimacy with the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

That, really is the heart of Catholicism. God the Father has given us the great and generous gift of intimate contact with His Son Jesus. Who would ever reject this?

I know it can be difficult sometimes when our Catholic brothers and sisters do not always exude as much vibrance as some Protestants seem to do. But we must not forsake God's Church because of it. Truth cannot be made subject to the sinful actions of others. In the Old Testament, the people of Israel had the one true faith before the Messiah - Judaism - and yet many, many of their people were disobedient. That did not make their religion untrue, but showed all the more God's faithfulness. As God's Church, we who are faithful must step out and proclaim the gospel message to all around us and even to those within the Catholic Church who have fallen away or become complacent.

David, I encourage you, please study your faith and start new threads at this forum to ask questions. There are many faithful Catholics here who would be willing and able to answer your questions. Continue in prayer and devotion to God. Begin to pray things such as the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Prayer is a powerful tool against the evil one.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 01, 2005.


"Catechism on a few pages?" Well back in 1960 or so, pre or just around Vatican II, it was. Somewhere around 2 or at most 4 pages. No convicing, just believe this, no jusitification, not anything but a statement of belief, and covering just a bit more than the Nicean (spelling?) creed. Not covering anything a inquiring youngster would like to talk about. " (Sean)

This time I have to come to the defence of the pre-Vatican II guys. I remember as a child when it was decided that the old 200+ page catechism we had been using was "too complicated for kids" so they stopped using it. What you seem to be talking about was probably a pamphlet with a simple statement of the Catholic faith intended as a free giveaway as a first step to spark interest in the Church and correct a few false impressions of Catholic beliefs. Whoever told you that this was the ONLY available form of the catachism was seriously misinformed.

David, did it occur to you that the meeting in mcdonalds was NO accident, but your “new friends” probably targeted you because you were young and were on your own and possibly because they noted you were of Hispanic appearance and assumed you were probably Catholic (or possibly even “tailed” you from Mass)? I have seen how these groups operate. I know it can be very persuasive and seductive when other young people, especially of the opposite sex, seem to be vitally interested in you personally without your even trying to impress them. You're impressed because they seem to talk about God in every sentence. But our Savior promised to save "Not everyone who calls me "Lord LORD, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven."

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 01, 2005.


Steve

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 01, 2005.

Steve:

Listen, these youths DID NOT target me. They didnt follow me around and watch my every move and the pounce. This was late at night and it was just a coincidence that we met there. Now if your wondering all of them are Hispanic as well. They started up a conversation and I asked them if they were family or something and then one responded, " A Christian family" and from there i thought the same thing you did. These people go out looking for others to join me. But after a month and half of knowing them THAT IS NOT THE CASE. Later they would tell me that was the first time they went to that mcdonalds. Anyway they invited me to a talent show at their Church. Now im not some naive, 16 year old punk teenager that partys, drinks and uses drugs. I knew what was going on, they wanted me to join them. Now I have been going to their services every Sunday since meeting them right after my Mass finishs at my Church of St. Peter's. Before meeting them, i knew i loved Jesus and was and still is being taught well at a Catholic School, but i didnt feel the love for Jesus like i do now and thank those "people" ,who are my friend, for that. I began to read the Bible and do research over the internet, i wouldnt be on this forum if it wasnt for them, and my Catholic faith has only gotten STRONGER. The reason i go to their services is because its about God and anything about God that is good is beautiful. To be honest they have a greater passion for our Lord than all the Catholics I know personally. I even get intimidated a little when i see them pray. They shake, they scream and yell, and cry. They say its the Holy Spirit coming over them. When i pray i dont do that i just tell the Lord that i know you can hear me, i dont need to yell. Also the thing about me going because of the opposite sex is wrong. I recognize the Lord, i do this for the right reasons, i would be hurting myself so greatly if i were to do this because of some girl.

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 01, 2005.


Steve: cont.

Bottom line is, if it wasnt for these people who you say target youths and got out of their way to convert, i wouldnt be writing to you right now, Id STILL be some arrogant jerk at school, id STILL be someone who disrespects their parents, id STILL be someone who only looks out for themselves, id STILL be some Catholic who only goes to church because they have to. Instead my CATHOLIC faith has grown 10x's more, instead i have a great relationship with my parents, instead i buy sandwiches for friends who dont have money, instead im now educating myself about Catholic faith outside the school. instead i NOW LOVE GOING TO CHURCH, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY LOVE JESUS SO MUCH MORE THAN BEFORE. David A.

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 01, 2005.


Now it may seem weird that i say my Catholic faith has gotten stronger when i said i was extremely confused but these past few days of research and listening to what you guys had to say, it has really gotten stronger....thank you

David A.

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 02, 2005.


David, I know what you mean by saying how these people have such a passion for Christ and PRAISE THE LORD for what them meeting you that resulted in your faith to grow! At my old Protestant Church it was like that. Many people seemed and DID have such a passion for Christ. I truly wish more Catholics had that "passion." Maybe that is a reason why so many Protestants who themselves are ignorant of Catholicism continue to believe Catholics aren't allowed to read the Bible and are taught man-made myths. My Priest is really saddened about that and always preaches with a fire it seems, "Are you a Catholic, or are you NOT?" Implying many of Catholics live lifes not truly for Christ but themselves.

And I know what mean when many are praying with such passion, I wish more of us did. But you know there are many Catholics out there who do have that "fire" for Christ. Oh man, I wish I could have met St. Francis of Assisi! Ever read a biogrophy on him? He had a fire unlike ANY person I have ever hear about or have known. He is also my favorite St. But anyways, and I'm not saying this about your friends (although if I'm not mistaken I thought I heard you say that they believe most Catholics are going to hell because we worship the Virgin Mary) but be careful because some Protestants actually have a "hatred" for Catholics. A great hatred too even though they seem full of "passion." I know a case when a Protestant became a Catholic, many from that church purposly avoided him. Another case where a Protestant became Catholic, he was called "traitor" as well as many nasty things. I myself cannot seem to communicate with my old Pastor who I dearly love. He's a great guy yet avoids me. I'm only saying to be careful. They are probaly hoping you'll convert, but if not, well then Praise the Lord!

I myself have been Challened by the faith of Jehova's Wittnesses. I have never gone up to someones door to preach about my beliefs. Lol, you know I never attended Sunday school since I did not grow up in the Catholic Church, I only studied it when I was in my early twenties before converting, but much of my knowledge has come from challenges. God seems to be poking a needle in our behinds lol.

God give you peace!

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), January 02, 2005.


Jason's a good counsellor, David. Unless we deeply love our Church, we even fail others who falsely beieve they can be born again without the Holy Spirit's gifts. Friends we make among the non-catholics literally depend on you and me. The Holy Gospel is waiting for them in our house of worship; where they do not wish to go anymore. Yet it was in the Catholic Church their own ancestors first met the Holy Spirit, from Christ and His Father Almighty. They no longer identify with Jesus apostles, who brought the Church to the nations. Because they have fallen away from Peter; the Vicar of Christ on earth. Once all their ancestors were loyal. Now only the most saintly can hope to ever know the full Gospel; and even they build on sand; not Rock.

You may be one sent to help a number of good souls, David; introducing to them this simple and indisputable fact: All of them have Catholic roots!

The Holy Bible in which they place such profound confidence, is made clear only in the Church of the holy apostles. To learn adequately from that Bible, you have to go to your Christian roots, the Catholic Church. But first your own faith must be made unshakeable.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2005.


Steve is a follower of Our Redeemer, not a free-lance Christian, ''been here.'' And, of course; your blessed ancestors WERE here, exactly where Peter the apostle was their Holy Father. Not talking about pagans; YOUR own ancestors. You are descended from Catholics. Maybe that's why you are ashamed to sign your real, Christian name. You don't want anyone associating you with your roots?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2005.

'' --so Catholicism is a nationality now?''

It might as well be, for all you know about it. You THINK you know, and you traded it for junk.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2005.


Hey "been there" by your comment of "re-crucifying Christ over and over again" shows flat out you know nothing at ALL about Catholicism. How Satan has so greatly darkened Christianity in our day! NUMEROUS people are so easily turned off because of the fighting and arguing among "christians." Which kind of denomination will begin tommorrow I wonder? This I believe greatly saddens and greives the heart of the Lord.

P.S. When I was Protestant I did mission trips, studied scripture intensly, fellowshiped greatly with Protestants, was once ANTI- Catholic, but since I have become Catholic, I have had a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with JESUS CHRIST GOD OF ALL CREATION so much more than I have ever known. Oh how wonderful it is!

God give you peace "been there":)

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), January 02, 2005.


David, methinks thou doth protest too much. I only said they POSSIBLY targeted you. Possibly they did meet you accidentally and merely took advantage of the situation they found themselves in. I didn’t mean that a girl overtly used sexual attraction to entrap you, I just meant when a girl comes up and talks openly and naturally to you without being invited, naturally you don’t feel like just telling her to shove off. These groups typically operate in groups of 3 young people, one of the same sex as the target and two of the opposite sex, and of the same race and culture as the target, so that the target feels less threatened and part of a natural group. When I was at college I joined a mildly fundamentalist group of students, mainly beceuae they were the only Christian group around. At first it seemed to have only beneficial effects on my relationship with God and others and my fight against sins. But after a few months it becanme clear that though they claimed to be “non-denominational”, their basic belief is that no-one except fundamentalist protestants are “ real Christians” and all others, especially Catholics, are going to hell (though they hadn’t got around to saying this openly as they did to you). They introduced me to other “enlightened Catholics”, as they called ex-Catholics who had left the light of Christ’s own Church for the deceptive “light” of protestant evangelical fundamentalism. I didn’t have the guts to confront them then, but I politely made my excuses and left, and then I looked at what the Catholic Church REALLY is, despite the lukewarmness of many Catholics. Once you do that you’ll never again consider joining a man-made religion.

“Been there”, Eugene means that they and you are CULTURAL descendants (through their ancestors or the protestants who preached to their ancestors) of those who cut themsleves off from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ, and set up their own man-made “churches”. And you are almost certainly physically descended from Catholics as well.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 02, 2005.


All eastern orthodox Christians descend from Catholics, Been There. Just as you and other western protestants do. In the beginning, starting at Acts, 2--

All converts to the Church practiced ONE faith; the Catholic, or ''universal'' faith. Christ founded the catholic Church. Our present-day Pope is a direct-line successor of Peter, who was bishop of Rome.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2005.


Peter was their shepherd, my lad. The first Pope. It's fairly easy to verify. Don't take my word.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2005.

The Eastern Orthodox recognize that St Peter was the first Pope and that John Paul II is his successor. Their only major dispute with Catholics is regarding the authority which Popes have over the other four major patriarchs of the Catholic Church in ancient times. (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople. They regard the Pope as first among equals of these 5.) Their sacraments are valid. They have not fallen into the multitude of doctrinal errors which the protestants have invented by trying to base Christianity solely on the Bible. (Since the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and compiled, produced, and preserved the Bible, this position is as stupid as saying “I accept the works of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro as my guide to life, but I’m not a Communist.”)

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 02, 2005.

It's a little thing called, "Apostolic Succession," Been There:

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,--a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian,Prescription against the Heretics,33(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:258

"For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: 'Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !' The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. " Augustine,To Generosus,Epistle 53:2(A.D. 400),in NPNF1,I:298

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,--a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian,Prescription against the Heretics,33(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:258

"It has been ordained by the apostles and their successors, that nothing be read in the Catholic Church, except the law, and the prophets, and the Gospels." Philastrius of Brescia,On Heresis(ante A.D. 387),in FOC,280

********

So, how about it, Been There, can you Do That? Can you produce Augustinian quotes that show your church is line with Bishops? Can you produce the "rolls" that show how your church came into being through a "succesion" of bishops?

Or, I know what, can you show any quote from any of the Patristic writers before the Orthodox split that shows them calling the Church anything but Catholic?

********************

And then there's the word itself -- Catholic -- which the patristic writers used to describe THE Church.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the CATHOLIC CHURCH." Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the CATHOLIC CHURCH which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp,16:2(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:42

"[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the CATHOLIC CHURCH possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,1:10,3(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:331-332

"For the blessed apostle Paul himself,following the rule of his predecessor John, writes only by name to seven Churches in the following order--to the Corinthians afirst...there is a second to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians, yet one Church is recognized as being spread over the entire world...Howbeit to Philemon one, to Titus one, and to Timothy two were put in writing...to be in honour however with the CATHOLIC CHURCH for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the CATHOILC CHURCH...But of Arsinous,called also Valentinus,or of Militiades we receive nothing at all." The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177),in NE,124

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' with the power of loosing and binding in heaven and on earth?'...Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those menlived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus,until on account of their ever restless curiosity,with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled." Tertullian,On the Prescription Against Heretics,22,30 (A.D.200),in ANF,III:253,257

"Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear and obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is CATHOLIC and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another." Cyprian,To Florentius,Epistle 66/67(A.D. 254),in ANF,V:374-375

"But for those who say, There was when He was not,and,Before being born He was not,and that He came into existence out of nothing,or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance...these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes" Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325),in ECC,216

"Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the CATHOLIC Church..." Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325),Canon 8,in NPNF2,XIV:19

"[T]he Article, In one Holy CATHOLIC Church,' on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly.It is called CATHOLIC then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men's knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts... But since the word Ecclesia is applied to different things (as also it is written of the multitude in the theatre of the Ephesians, And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the Assembly), and since one might properly and truly say that there is a Church of evil doers, I mean the meetings of the heretics, the Marcionists and Manichees, and the rest, for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy CATHOLIC Church;' that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church CATHOLIC in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord's House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the CATHOLIC Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God (for it is written, As Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for it, and all the rest,) and is a figure and copy of Jerusalem which is above, which is free, and the mother of us all; which before was barren, but now has many children." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,18:23,26(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VIII:139-140

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen" Apostles Creed(A.D. 360),in ECC,369

"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy CATHOLIC, and apostolic Church" Constantinopolitan Creed(A.D. 381),in ECC,298

"Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God." Council of Constantinople I,Canon 7(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,XIV:185

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is CATHOLIC and which is called CATHOLIC not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but CATHOLIC. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard" Augustine,The True Religion, 7:12(A.D. 390),in JUR,3:40

"You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name CATHOLIC to mean universal, not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments, as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called CATHOLIC because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word's signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations." Augustine,To Vincent the Rogatist,93:7,23(A.D. 403),in NPNF1,I:390

"Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in THE HOLY CHURCH, [intending thereby] assuredly the CATHOLIC. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same, inasmuch as: it loves the neighbor, and consequently readily forgives the neighbor's sins, because it prays that forgiveness may be extended to itself by Him who has reconciled us to Himself, doing away with all past things, and calling us to a new life. And until we reach the perfection of this new life, we cannot be without sins. Nevertheless it is a matter of consequence of what sort those sins may be." Augustine,On Faith and Creed,10:21(A.D. 393),in NPNF1,III:331

"For in the CATHOLIC Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure,deed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)--not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the CATHOLIC Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called CATHOLICS, yet when a stranger asks where the CATHOLIC Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the CATHOLIC Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the CATHOLIC Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion in which almost all that you believe is contained. For in that unhappy time when we read it we were in your opinion enlightened. The epistle begins thus:--'Manichaeus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.' Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I donor believe Manichaeus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichaeus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichaeus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. ... for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you. But if you read thence some passage clearly in favor of Manichaeus, I will believe neither them nor you: not them, for they lied to me about you; nor you, for you quote to me that Scripture which I had believed on the authority of those liars. But far be it that I should not believe the gospel; for believing it, I find no way of believing you too. For the names of the apostles, as there recorded, do not include the name of Manichaeus. And who the successor of Christ's betrayer was we read in the Acts of the Apostles; which book I must needs believe if I believe the gospel, since both writings alike Catholic authority commends to me. The same book contains the well-known narrative of the calling and apostleship of Paul. Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichaeus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe. Will you read the passage where the Lord promised the Holy Spirit as a Paraclete, to the apostles? Concerning which passage, behold how many and how great are the things that restrain and deter me from believing in Manichaeus." Augustine,Against the Epistle of Manichaeus,4:5,5:6 (A.D 397),in NPNF1,IV:130-131

"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors." Council of Ephesus,Session III(A.D. 431),in NPNF2:XIV:223

"I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or anyone else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they arise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church. But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation?' For this reason,--because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another, so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novation expounds it one way, Sabellius another, ... Arius ... another ... Pelagius ... another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation" Vincent of Lerins,Commoniories,2:4,5(A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:132

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties." Council of Chalcedon,Session III(A.D. 451),in NPNF2,XIV:259

Here, I'll even give you a link to all of the Patristic writers, on- line. Read them for yourself. You will find they venerated the saints, they venerated Mary, they believed in the Eucharist, and they believed in purgatory. In fact, you can find "Catholic teachings" of some sort or other all the way back to 1st century Christianity!

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So Been There, how's that for proof. Want more? Well, golly, I don't know what more you'd need, but here ya go . . . .

Here's a link to the Fathers: http://ccel.org/fathers2

And here's a link to Church Fathers by category: http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 02, 2005.


If your only proof is Matt 16, then I'm afraid that that isn't good enough.

That verse is hardly fool proof!

beenthere@donethat.com,

Do you have a name? Speaking of 'enough' proof for you? I would suggest you bring proof that the only true Church is as you imply false. Does attacking the Catholic Church somehow make your church or beliefs true? Truth stands alone -[it] is not relative as you suggest. What is your religion? If you are ashamed to announce your religion I would suggest you fear scrutiny and wish to protect your delusion... The one true Catholic Church has no such fear and all teaching is available for all -why do you think this is?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), January 02, 2005.


But you see, Daniel, Been There, isn't interested in truth. He probably won't bother to read the proof I have provided . . . and it is only a tiny fragment of what is available at the click of a button!

Thank you Jesus for the Internet, without which, how would I have ever stumbled upon the truth?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 03, 2005.


To All:

Guys, most of you know that situation im in. Last night I was with these Protestants, my friends. We went out to eat, there was like 12 of us. I started up a conversation with one of the people about the Cathlolic faith and of course he made his arguments. Then another person came in and listen then our voices got louder and more people would listen. Soon all 12 were listening to what i had to say. Guys, these past few days ive educated myself immensly. Now these people listened and i soon found myself preaching to everyone, standing up, talking with so much emotion. I would ask them questions that they didnt know the answer to. I saw their faces as everyone's eyes were glued onto mine. Guys I had a person cry because of the things i said that made them think so much. I told them that we could be arguing all night. But i asked them a couple questions that had them questioning themselves. Now all them use to Catholics and I asked them "Guys, how many of you actually opened up a book and did some research before turning to your back onto the Catholic Church?" This question was the main thing i wanted to get across. How would you turn your back on something you are not fully educated on? You saw that "O wow these "Christians" really love me and love Jesus, so this is it, this must be the place" and would abandon the Catholic Church. They were not "tricked" but were fooled into thinking these other churches were the answer. And i had them thinking so much. Now I thought i lost respect of all them but after they all came to ask me more questions and one said jokingly "We're scared of you David". Another said "Your too smart for us". Some came to me privately and thanked me. One person told me that they didnt want to listen the first part of the debate because "I have the power to convince anyone". I wasnt there to convince anyone of the Catholic faith, i just wanted to make the point of educating yourself to the fullest before making a drastic change in your faith. I told them that the only reason i go to their church is because they preach about God and that's beautiful. Those people are great and im glad that they listened because now their thinking twice and will be doing some reading. Also im not stopping, im continuing to read and educate myself because im nowhere near done and IM THANKFUL YOU GUYS ARE HERE HELPING ME THANK YOU David A.

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.


Bravo, David! Sounds like the Holy Spirit was REALLY working through you. That is so awesome. Ahhh, the Spirit of Truth . . . Isn't He grand!

You made my day!!

May the Spirit of wisdom and truth continue to speak through you.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 03, 2005.


It sounds to me like David put us on.

Does anyone here truly believe that a band of knowledgable Protestant evanelizers were left *dumbfounded* and without a response to Catholicism?

Oh boy!

-- (anon@anon.com), January 03, 2005.


Dear Anon, Are you saying I may not be telling the whole story like it is?? Like i said, in the beginning they had their arguments and had more facts to present, but that was NOT my point of argument. Dont get me wrong I had a few things they couldnt respond to. My point was this though, did any of them educate themselves and open up books and do research (like im doing now) to the fullest about their Catholic faith before turning their back to Catholic Church? And NONE said a word.

I do not have to make up any stories, im not hear to brag about anything....IM HEAR TO LEARN. AND THAT IS THE TRUTH

David A.

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.


You are giving a false impression of what a Protestant is, if you think they are uneducated about such things.

It is their education that brings them out of the Catholic religion. You do realize that a great majority of Protestants are ex-Catholics, right? I mean, that is what they are Protesting. Rome!

There would be nothing you could say that I as an ex Catholic- Protestant could not refute and clear-up for you.

I just think you are putting us on. You made way too quick a flip- flop to be taken seriously.

-- (anon@anon.com), January 03, 2005.


Good job, David A. Keep up the good work!

I have heard too many (uneducated) evangelicals attack the Catholic Church. Usually they don't know what they are talking about, because they haven't studied their stuff, and haven't given the Catholic Church a fair hearing. They accuse Catholics of not being true Christians--well, what about such varied characters as St. Francis of Assisi, Mother Theresa, and John Michael Talbot?

The Catholic Church has lots going for it. Especially Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament--where He has promised to be for us.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 04, 2005.


Bravo, David, it's amazing what the Holy Spirit can do if we let him.

Anon, put up or shut up. Tell us what was this "education" you are hiding which "educated" you out of the Catholic Church. And I don't mean the tired old sectarian calumnies and ignorant scriptural misinterpretations that have been well and truly refuted on this site a hundred times. Give us some historical and ecclesiological FACTS, not opinions, which show that God wants you to cut youself off from the Church which He founded and guides.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 04, 2005.


Annon, were you not a Catholic not only a year ago? Or am I thinking of another "annon." The one who wrote a beautiful poem about Catholicism?

Well I afraid your wrong about your education theroy Annon. I was brought up a Catholic (when I was young) and yet denied the Church for Protestantism when I became serious for God. I read the Bible continuously as well as listening to what my Protestant friends and my Pastor had to say about other faiths such as Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, and especialy CATHOLICISM! Later I became a very strict Calvinist and who argue for hours on end quoting scripture all throughout the Bible against and "free-will" believer. I thought I knew what Catholicism taught as well. I knew some of the verses the Church quoted for their beliefs but laughed at them. I would hear a verse on Confession, Commuion, Baptism etc. Though it wasn't that in- depth nevertheless I thought I knew about Catholicism and so within my King James Bible on a blank page, I had ready scripture verses in defense against any Catholic I would come across hehe. Boy would I have gotten anihlated if I came across a Catholic serious in his/her faith. I still giggle when I look at my King James Bible and see thoses "Catholic attack" verses in there lol :).

But when I actualy began to study Catholic Church I was literaly blown away! I could not grasp or believe how much SCRIPTURE and CHURCH HISTORY based it was. It seems like it's such a great truth, yet Satan has greatly blinded mankind from it.

P.S. Praise the Lord David! Your night sounded awesome:)

God give you peace

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), January 04, 2005.


Correcto-Mundo, Jason!
I'm slightly amused by this naive remark of ''anon's''--

''You do realize that a great majority of Protestants are ex-Catholics, right? I mean, that is what they are Protesting. Rome!'' Ha!

What do you think we've been telling you? You all have Catholic ancestors; you're a turncoat of the faith. When a Catholic follows after any heretical sect or minister, he leaves the TRUE Church that Christ gave him/her. That's precisely what happened to your own Catholic fathers who became ''reformed'' Protestants. Previously, your roots led you back in history to the Church of the apostles. Now you're heretics, due to an egregious error committed by Luther, Henry VIII, Calvin, Knox (and other lightweights like Mary Baker Eddy, Whatsizname Russel of Jehovah's Witness, Darcy of Plymouth, England, Joseph Smith and all that dishonest bunch.

YOU were given the faith by Christ's apostles, as well as the Bible. But your ancestors of the 1500's traded it for junk.

Sorry to be so blunt. But all of you have come here to insult our intelligence. You asked for it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 04, 2005.


i somehow doubt that the majority of protestants are ex-catholics... i'd like to see an official source for that tidbit, other than anon's unbacked opinion. second, education does not lead people away from the catholic church, it leads people to deeper relationship with God in His church that He founded. it is the miseducation of protestant ministers that leads to ignorance regarding the church of Christ and therefore to the sometimes hateful lies and half truths which are slung against the church.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 04, 2005.

He calls them ex-Catholics. The greater part are, of course descended from an ex-Catholic family or lineage. Whether or not any impressive number of recently converted Protestant believers come from the Catholic faith is debatable enough. Because we'll never know how many of that number will confess and return to the Church when death becomes imminent.

I might concede that large numbers of Catholics leave the Church over their wrong perceptions of sin. Going where abortion, birth control, divorce and even illicit occupations (indecent activities and/or homosexuality) are deemed unimportant. As long as you are ''saved''.

And then, why concede even that? More Catholics than we could ever count have come INTO the Church from this world than left her. Thanks be to God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 04, 2005.


Eugene,

You are off the mark. Catholicism was not what the apostles taught or practiced themselves, and you would be hard-pressed to show me where in Scripture do we see the Mass being practiced, or Mary being exalted and prayed too or festivals honoring saints and the idolizing of relics etc...

The Roman Catholic practices developed over time and became evident centuries later.

The protestant recognizes the problem, can see about where things went terribly wrong, and has just determined to get back on track.

I won't waste my time posting my proofs, as I can see that the moderator here is uncomfortable and deletes what he can't refute.

-- (anon@anon.com), January 04, 2005.


Anon, when speaking with Catholics you must keep in mind that they do not hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, i.e. that the Bible is the only infallible standard of teaching. Therefore your appeal to arguments based on scripture or silence thereof, will unfortunately not get too far.

I agree with your sentiments and I'm sure most of the people on this forum know that, but I think at the end of the day, it's probably better to dispense the riches of Christ for others enjoyment.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), January 04, 2005.


At the end of the day (overused adage) we know that even the Catholic must refer to Scriptural support if they are to be considered seriously. They do refer to the Scriptures when they think the support is there. Then they claim tradition plus Scripture, when the support is nowhere to be found in God's Holy Word.

-- (anon@anon.com), January 04, 2005.

Hmmm, perhaps you'd care to join the chat with MIRC as stated in the thread "Supplementary Chat" ?

Hopefully we could get some good dynamic conversation going regarding scripture, traditions etc.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), January 04, 2005.


''they claim tradition plus Scripture when support is nowhere to be found in God's Holy Word.''

Anon's personal opinion, not important. We must allow that Christ founded the Church, not anon. And God's Holy Word is the Church and scripture. Scripture was given us through the apostolic Church.

If Jesus Christ had prophesied perhaps someday His Holy Church would be ''reformed'' wouldn't we see it in the Bible? Something so critical wouldn't be hidden from us. Why haven't you spotted the passage? You claim to know the Bible.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 04, 2005.


Anon:

There was no "flip-flop". I didnt convert from Catholic to Protestant and then back to Catholic in a matter of days. I was always Catholic, but just not educated. So when i met these people, I had questions and came here. Now Ive learned alot over a span of 4 days and carry the Bible with me everywhere and is now educated somewhat, i say somewhat because i have so much more to learn, its a NEVER ending process. Something else Anon, id appreciate it if you stop saying that im "putting you guys on". I am no liar and there is no need to lie. What will i get out of it?? When it comes to my faith, i do not fool over. Thank You

David A.

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), January 04, 2005.


Dear Anon, there are very many problems within the structure of Protestantism, as well as very many problems with the doctrine of sola scriptura itself. These would have been no challenge to any Catholic with even a rudimentary knowledge of Catholocism. Most Protestants I know PERSONALLY, who have a great deal of scripture knowledge, are dumbfounded when questions are posed to THEM by a CATHOLIC that they can't answer.

So I can say that I too have experienced the type of responses that David has, some screaming, yelling, some enraged and some just "speech-less." Why? I think part of it is that Protestants think they can easily "bury" Catholics and when they find one they can't bury, they both surprised and bewildered.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 04, 2005.


Dear anon,

1. The Mass is instituted by the Lord Jesus as found in the four Gospels, and in 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 and chapter 11. "Do this for My memorial" is a technical phrase, a "memorial before the Lord", so that, as Paul says, we "show forth the Lord's death until He comes". Therefore "the bread *is* a sharing in the Body of Christ", and "whoever eats unworthily is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." Acts 13:1 reminds us that the early prophets and apostles "did the liturgy and fasted" (look at the greek). Christ instituted the eucharist to fulfill the Passover, and He is the Lamb of God truly present: or else we get less than the Jews did. Read 1 Corinthians 10:16 a couple times: dare you believe it?

2. Because she was living, Christians certainly asked Mary for her prayers in those early days when she gathered with the apostles and faithful in the upper room, etc. If you balk at her praying for us now, I remind you that the elders and angels in the book of Revelation "offer up the prayers of the saints". This is not unusual. And she is able to hear us, too, for even when a sinner repents, "those in heaven rejoice" (Luke 15), so the saints in heaven certainly know what is going on.

3. If you have a hard time with relics, remember that the bones of Elisha the prophet raised a man from the dead, and that the handkerchiefs of Paul healed the sick.

4. On the other hand, sir, you presumably accept the Trinity as taught by the fathers of the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. (many of whom had been hurt and tortured in the Roman persecutions), and you presumably use the same books of the New Testament that they authoritatively agreed were truly inspired of God. I challenge you to read the minutes of the Council of Nicea (available online) and tell me if you can claim to share their faith: which is clearly, obviously Catholic (or at least Orthodox) for anyone who is honest and has eyes to see.

Or do you think the true Church disappeared--despite the promise of Christ in Matthew 16?

Catholics are not afraid of the Scriptures, sir.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 06, 2005.


Just as I thought, the only so-called “education” which Anon has received is the same tired old sectarian calumnies and ignorant scriptural misinterpretations that have been well and truly refuted on this site a hundred times. No-one’s threatening to delete your “proofs” anon, in fact I’ve been begging you to give us some historical and ecclesiological FACTS, not opinions, which show that God wants you to cut youself off from the Church which He founded and guides. But you can’t come up with any such facts. Have a good hard think about why that is.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 08, 2005.

Andy,
You're free to ask, naturally. But a basher mainly wants his point of view alloted space. Not the sources; which are so diverse we simply can't be bothered. If only he would give you something read in His Bible. But nothing from there can possibly support his negative assertion. Many like to quote the book of Revelations. There are plain answers to those attacks.

But this man attacks the CATHOLIC faith. Faith as spoken of in scripture is more generic, and he isn't confining himself to attacking a generic belief. He isn't worthy of the respectful answer, IMHO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 12, 2005.


Hey david,

Go find the answers you looking for... pray and read your bible, and you will find the question to your answers. Whether you agree with the answers...that will depend on you...

God Blessings nolan

-- nolan (nolannaicker@webmail.co.za), January 24, 2005.


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