Hi

My house mate who is not a Christian asked me about pre-marital sex. He asked how do Christians know that you can for example kiss a girl. He said that Christianity is a man-made thing. Anyway I told him that sometimes I don't know all the answers to the questions I get but I just follow what's taught to me because I know that if I had spent time trying to find the answer to every single question I had it would probably a long time. There's probably always going to be questions. I've decided that sometimes if it doesn't bother me that much I simply accept it as what God wants from me and I don't question it.

I'm not a good preacher and I don't know my Bible inside out. I lack confidence but I can pray to God that He can send someone or something to make my housemate understand (if he chooses to do so). I can spread the message through other ways such as doing good works and living my life as God's witness.

Could someone answer to me about how do we know what constitutes sex in the Bible?

For me and based on my conscience: sex is sex. Since I was young I tended to sense what should be within marriage when I was exposed to it in the media or at school. I guess it feels obvious to me based on my conscience but it doesn't feel obvious to my house mate.

The Bible is not a scientific book with lots of technical detail. If it was it probably wouldn't be able to apply itself to the modern world.

Anyway I guess I ended up giving a bit of my own feeling and opinion on this, but I do hope you can provide me with a clear answer to my original question.

God bless,

-- Mark (-please@no.email), December 20, 2004

Answers

mark,this is my personal opinion--and i know many people on the forum are going to attack me because of this

but i think that things like pre marital sex really don't make someone a bad person

do you really think that god is going to let you burn in hell for something like that?

how about if you never heard about jesus for example and never were christian and didn't keep this command?

we all know the fundamental differences between right and wrong,it's a archetype that all people have but i really don't think someone is a bad person by having oral sex,pre marital sex,not having children in his marriage,contraceptives,masturbation...ETc..etc

this is not written down in the bible as an important commands but these are teaching of the catholic church which is considered infaillable by most of the people on this forum so they keep that commands

though i know many christians who are not focussed on such things in the bible and don't keep every single command

and besides of that there are many otther commands that the catholics and the other christians also don't keep(in the books leviticus,deutronomium,numeri...for example)

i think if 2 people really love each other that there is nothing wrong with having sex,no one should be telling them how to express their love for each other

i think most people should just follow their hearts instead of wondering what is sinfull and what not,and keeping just the commands to get to heaven

i mean what's the meaning of keeping a command if you don't feel that way yourself and you just do it 'because you have to'

ok back now to your question

i'm not catholic but as far as i know kissing isn't considered as sex

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 20, 2004.

mark,this is my personal opinion--and i know many people on the forum are going to attack me because of this but i think that things like pre marital sex really don't make someone a bad person

{tHEN YOU DONT KNWO MUCH ABOUT US OR PHSYCOLOGY OR BIOLOGY... we don attakc peopl here as a rule.

Besies that, almost all cultures, and all lastgn oens, think of premarital sex is a bad thing, and, in geenral, the act is degradign to ones charecter. its not exaclty limited to hristains lad, more below...}-Zarove

do you really think that god is going to let you burn in hell for something like that?

{ Other than your mis constured concept f Hell, the answer is yes. If yo use peopel for self gratification and dismiss the baic way of life, you tend to end up in Hell...}-Zarove

how about if you never heard about jesus for example and never were christian and didn't keep this command?

{Almost everyone has heard this commandment who habt heard of Jesus. in china, where Christaimtiy is a minority faith, sex outside of marriage is uncommona nd frowned upopn. In ancient Eypt the chastity of women was vlaued. In Aborigional Australia it was not looked well on to fornicate.

he reason is because, dispite your claims, rpemaritcal sex takes a phyiccal and mental toll,a dn simpel observation reveals that its both adicting and destructive.

For reaons we discussed in other threads...

Sex outside of marriage is near Universlly thought of as wrong, an only in our modern western cultrue is it seen as OK, and even now its seen as wrong, but Ok to xdo...}-Zarove

we all know the fundamental differences between right and wrong,it's a archetype that all people have but i really don't think someone is a bad person by having oral sex,pre marital sex,not having children in his marriage,contraceptives,masturbation...ETc..etc

{But the acts you descirbe are inherently not good,e xcept the " not havign Children'...soem peope never marry and soem married coples cant...

The acts degrade men and women and lead to phsycologicla and physical problems that you choose to ignore to say its OK and only rleigious rules christaisn follwo make it bad.}-Zarove

this is not written down in the bible as an important commands but these are teaching of the catholic church which is considered infaillable by most of the people on this forum so they keep that commands

{Uhm...it is int he Bible...

Check out these verses...

Leviticus Chapter 18. whoel chapter.

Mathew chapter 5, verses 30-33

Mathew 15:19

Acts 15:20

Romans 1:29

Firts conrintians chapter5 verse 1.

This shdl suffice, there are lots more...}-Zarove

though i know many christians who are not focussed on such things in the bible and don't keep every single command

{not vert good christauanthen are they?}-Zarove

and besides of that there are many otther commands that the catholics and the other christians also don't keep(in the books leviticus,deutronomium,numeri...for example)

{Such as what? vauge refernces make poor arguments...}-Zarove

i think if 2 people really love each other that there is nothing wrong with having sex,no one should be telling them how to express their love for each other

{Uhm, what if they express there love for eahc other by suicide?

The concsquences of premarital sex are well knwon in reduced happiness and increased depresiona nd divorce.

If they lved eahc other, whay hinders htem form commitment? why not get married? Sex isnt always an expresison of loe, an is often motivated by lust, whihc to also overlook.

Love demands sacrifice and commitment, which you want ot remove form it to make it all abut self gratificaiton, whihc removes ot form love.}-Zarove

i think most people should just follow their hearts instead of wondering what is sinfull and what not,and keeping just the commands to get to heaven

{Like rted bundy who "followed his heart".

The heart of man is deceitful, lad, and the midn of man often raitonalises sin to make it acceptable...}-Zarove

i mean what's the meaning of keeping a command if you don't feel that way yourself and you just do it 'because you have to'

{becaue if to dont you end up worse off. You may want topretend premarital sex has no down side, and its abotu two peopel in lvoe, btu I am wise enough and expeirenced enouht o see the reality. Premaritcal sex, even if you hink its OK, leads inevitabley to problems ranign rom diseae to unanted pregnancies to emotional issues liek low self esteem. You want to let that continue becase you dont want truels, dispite he fac tthat the rules exist in nature and ar eonly clarified by religiosu beelifs.}-Zarove

ok back now to your question

i'm not catholic but as far as i know kissing isn't considered as sex

{Correct, the only corrc thting yo have said thuxfa rn this post.}- Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUO.COM), December 20, 2004.

Dear Mark,
Tell us about your house mate.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 20, 2004.

The way I see it , what's done cannot be undone !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 20, 2004.

"{But the acts you descirbe are inherently not good,e xcept the " not havign Children'...soem peope never marry and soem married coples cant... "

ok i heard ONCE AGAIN your **** and so-called arguments about pre marital sex zarove,but what the **** is wrong with oral sex,masturbation and contraceptives?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 20, 2004.

sdqa - It's not about 'being a bad person'. God loves all of us, and none of us is perfect. It's about bad ACTIONS, bad choices which are a way of turning away from God. It's people who reject God, not the other way around. From what I've read, the Catholic church teaches people are held accountable for sinning when they KNOW it's a sin, and that God judges us according to what we did with the grace and knowledge we had. It's like the difference between a 6 month old pulling hair out of curiosity, or a 6 year old doing it out of malice - the one who knew it was wrong is the one who's accountable. As far as your list of 'hot issues', there is really only one issue that matters - is the Cathoic Church the true Church, guided by the holy Spirit? If not, nothing it says matters. If so, it's teachings must be true, whether you understand them or not. That's not to say that they are impossible to understand, and there are some very good apologetics out there on birth control, premarital sex etc., but the Catholic Church isn't just a grab-bag of teachings you may or may not agree with. It's based on the authority given to the apostles and their successors by Christ himself.

-- Erika (maiaminna@yahoo.com), December 20, 2004.

“how do Christians know that you can for example kiss a girl.” Sounds like your housemate is just acting dumb to try to ridicule or provoke you Mark. Everyone, whether they have ever heard of Christ or not, knows that kissing is NOT sexual intercourse.

Of course there are certain particular ways of kissing which, if used to excess, are inappropriate and unwise for unmarried people, because unlike “normal” kissing, they tend to foster hormonal responses which greatly increase the power of temptations to sexual intercourse. Again, anyone with half a brain knows this.

He may as well ask “how do you know that you can for example fly in an airplane, because it’s not mentioned in the Bible?”

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 20, 2004.

"ok i heard ONCE AGAIN your **** and so-called arguments about pre marital sex zarove,but what the **** is wrong with oral sex,masturbation and contraceptives?"

If you would actually listen to the people on this forum, you wouldn't have to hear the same arguments over and over again, and you would already know the answer to that question.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.

OK from the top...what is semen composed off? Hundreds of millions of sperm cells whose only mission in life is to fertilize an egg - but in the process penetrate as many mucus membranes as possible. The liquid also contains chemicals designed to reduce immune system response - so that the woman's body doesn't immediately attack these foreign cells like it's programmed to do.

Now, what is the environment like in your mouth? A moist mucusy membrane region - cheeks, gums, tongue, throat.

Ingesting semen - besides the obvious threat of contacting STDs, is highly unhealthy. You are going to get 300 million penetrations in your cellular lining, plus any STDs, plus the immune system defeating chemicals.

If you make a habit of consuming ejaculate in oral sex, you will have problems.

If you make a habit of anal sex the risk of serious health issues goes through the roof because unlike the mouth, the anus is not designed for ingestion of foreign objects, nor does it have saliva to chemically reduce whatever comes in.

(Saliva won't instantly kill sperm - those little cells are too fast. Millions will penetrate cheeks, gums, and tongue tissue, and then be attacked by the immune system, which will then be weakened by this unprecedented assault. Repeated attacks lowers the body's ability to fight off other bugs.)

Now oral stimulation is something else- but the ingestion of bodily fluids is always frought with peril. I can't believe people can have 12 years of sex education, and highschool biology, and STILL not realize the inherent dangers of ingesting blood, semen, sweat and urine.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 21, 2004.

I am very thankful for your answers. Some of them make very obvious sense to me, and I surprise myself that I didn't think of that before. I guess I've been too busy and stressed out with work and everyday life that I cannot clearly answer simple questions from my house mate.

I like the part about where does the Bible say that it's not sinful to fly a plane. It reminds me that the Bible also serves as a guide: a guide that can be applied no matter what age we are in. I guess one of the problems is that the tiny minor changes in the world's behaviour or technology sometimes make it hard to distinguish what is wrong.

What if one day they create human-like robots (androids or whatever) and people just have sex with them saying that it's ok because you're not bonding yourself to another human being? The Bible doesn't talk about sex with 'bots but I'd feel that somehow it would be wrong to do so. I know it sounds bizzare but I wouldn't be surprised if eventually this sort of thing happens in the future.

I feel with all the changes in technology it's becoming harder being a Christian within.

Someone asked me to tell about my housemate? What would you like to know and why? I could only give you a biased opinion ofcourse.

Pardon me if I take time to reply sometimes. Hectic schedule.

-- Mark (=please@no.email), December 22, 2004.

Tell us all about him/her. Are you in love?

Or; don't. Just give a hint.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 22, 2004.

Mark, I hope this doesn’t disgust people but there are already machines/devices/dolls etc available which simulate a human body (or part thereof), designed for a person to use for sexual stimulation. They are NOT ok, precisely BECAUSE this sexual stimulation does not involve bonding with another human being. They ARE condemned in the Bible; this sin is equivalent to the sin of Onan.

It is true that technology, though it has given us many wonderful things, is a good servant but a bad master. Many people have fallen into the trap of thinking that if something is technologically possible and doesn’t seem to “hurt” or infringe the rights of any other person who is able to verbally object to it, then it must be OK. They are wrong. The same principles apply as have always applied. There are not really any “new” sins, just slightly different ways of committing old sins.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 22, 2004.

Just realized my earlier post may have been taken as implying that kissing is not mentioned in the Bible. In fact there are many Bible passages where kissing is modeled, endorsed, and even commanded.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 23, 2004.

I generally refrain from viewing these threads related to sexual sins and what not and Joe's post reminded me why. Gross! :-p Joe, you should go to Junior Highs and High Schools and talk to them about mucus membranes. Abstinence will begin to make a comeback. How am I going to sleep now after reading that?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 24, 2004.

Oh well, in that case...the health risks are reduced and we merely have a moral problem here. If an unmarried person assists another in what is essentially masturbation, that person is aiding and abetting a vice which is particularly habit-forming and addictive.

Kind of like helping a minor buy liquor, or offering to buy and help someone shoot heroin. It may not directly hurt the girl...but it is doing harm to the boy.

So this is a moral problem not a biological one. If friends don't let friends drink and drive, and friends don't allow friends to starve themselves to death or do other dangerous addict-forming things, because they are friends... why should a girl help a boy fall into a seriously addictive habit such as masturbation via oral sex?

Men have enough trouble as it is controlling their passions. With girls aiding and abetting their sexual urges things are only going to get worse.

But you're right, it's just a moral problem, not a physical one if a condom is used. You're merely killing the supernatural life within your soul, not inflicting physical harm.

In the old days this was considered scandal or corrupting others by weakening their will and consciences.

Yes, it makes him feel good. I could make my little boy feel good too by only feeding him junk food. But in the long run that would be bad for him, so I don't do it. I want to do what is good for him - even if he doesn't particularly like peas more than chocolate.

If you like or love someone you don't want to do anything which will hurt them sooner - or later, even if they'd "like it".

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 29, 2004.

and why is this immoral or harmfull if the reason why u do it iz love?

-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004.

Love doent strt self gratificaiton kicks, which is what mutual masterbation is...

so one can safley say that the motiv is never love.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 30, 2004.

Jerry, such things as contraception and oral sex (at least if for its own sake) are, well, incomplete. God has joined together our powers of affection and of procreation, and it seems important not to separate what God has joined together.

When husband and wife are joined, it is ideally a complete union of two persons, their bodies and souls and powers. Contraception tries to overrule the way our bodies are designed: but Christians know that Christ is the Lord of our bodies, not us.

Contraception and oral-sex-for-its-own-sake are kind of like eating food, but then throwing it up in a vomitarium because we only want the taste, but don't want the nutrition that goes with it. So likewise when we want only the pleasure of sex but reject our bodies' design and powers, it's kind of like vomiting up our food.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 03, 2005.

I'm going to follow recent habit and offer a reading assignment:

Elizabeth Anscombe on contraception and chastity. One of the most brilliant expositions on the Web and elsewhere.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 04, 2005.