This question has always bothered me. Should we be sure we are going to Heaven? It always bothers me when my fundamentalist friends are 100% sure that they are going to Heaven as soon as they die. It seems to me like that is assuming that you have the wisdom that God does. I know that through Confirmation we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit to know right from wrong, but do we know right from wrong to the point that we know where we are going when we die?

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004

Answers

bump

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.

First of all , I'm not catholic !! So , this reply is just my vision !!

but do we know right from wrong to the point that we know where we are going when we die?

No-one knows !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 20, 2004.

No-one knows with certainty that they will be saved. Some have been duped into thinking they know this, which presumably means they no longer have to obey the biblical dictate, "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". The great Apostle Paul certainly didn't know he was saved. He wrote "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, having preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified". (1 Corinthians 9:27). Paul knew that even though he was personally responsible for bringing more people to Christ than any other individual in the history of the world, that was no guarantee that he himself would be saved. He was familiar with the writings of Matthew, who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit had plainly stated "... the one who endures to the end, he WILL be saved".

Paul knew, as we do, that we will certainly be saved IF we remain faithful until the end of our earthly lives. But we do not know with certainty that we will remain faithful, and Satan is doing his best to make sure we won't. Therefore we cannot be certain of our salvation, and those who think they can are in a very dangerous position spiritually. Who seeks after that which he thinks he already has?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 20, 2004.

I think for a sin to cause you to lose your salvation (be a mortal sin), it has to be deliberate and you have to know that it's wrong.

-- Erika (maiaminna@yahoo.com), December 20, 2004.

That's true Erika, but even if we are certain that we have not committed any mortal sin since we last received the sacrament of Reconciliation, it is wrong to say, as the protestant fundamentalists wrongly say, that we are already "saved" or already "have" our salvation while we are still alive. We cannot know what sins we might commit between now and our deaths. We must be always on our guard.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 23, 2004.

Christians are not going to stay in heaven for eternity. We are becoming the very dwelling place of God corporately, i.e. the New Jerusalem, coming DOWN out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.

The New Jerusalem thus is a mutal dwelling place of God and man. The precious stones of the city signify the transformed believers, wrought with the life of God. The golden transparent nature of the city signifies the divine nature expressed through the believers, who no longer express the self, Adam (clay).

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), December 23, 2004.

There will be no place to come "down" to out of heaven. The earth and the universe of which it is a part will cease to exist. Space and time will cease to exist. The only eternal places are heaven and hell.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 24, 2004.

Hey everyone. I have something to add. Some good questions and Biblical truth for you to ponder. It's alittle long but I also emailed you this in a Word Document. God Bless. Merry Christmas.

Will My Good Works Get Me Into Heaven?

I. Good Deeds Can Get Us To Heaven

Since people recognize they cannot achieve perfection in this life, they erect various systems based on degrees of goodness. There are four problems with such systems: 1. They are arbitrary. - Which standard is better? Which one is better than another? - How well do we have to do? No one can perfectly live up to an arbitrary human standard. 2. They offer no assurance of salvation. No one can be sure until it is too late whether he makes it. 3. They ask God to approve of evil. These systems require God to approve imperfect people. 4. They contradict the bible. The bible clearly teaches that salvation is based on faith in Christ, not human merit.

II. Good Deeds Can Not Get Us to Heaven 1. God’s standard is nothing less than perfection. 2. Christ and the Bible affirm the imperfection of our attitudes and actions. Matthew 5:48, Romans 3:23 3. The penalty of this imperfection (sin) is death (separation from God). There are two options: - We pay this penalty ourselves. Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death.” - We can accept Christ’s payment on our behalf. 2 Corinthians 5:21 4. Christ bore our judgment in full, and when we receive His gift of righteousness we become acceptable and perfect before God. 5. Good works are not the means of salvation; they are the result of salvation.

Can Anyone Be Sure of His Salvation?

I. WE CANNOT BE SURE OF ETERNAL LIFE

1. Can’t someone stop believing in Christ? To answer we must… - Understand the difference between profession and possession. A person cannot lose what he never had. Matthew 7: 21-23 - Understand the nature of faith; Faith is not just intellectual assent, but a willful choice that the believer has already made. - Understand the result of faith. There is a spiritual birth. John 3. - Genuine Christians may experience great doubt due to circumstances and intellectual problems.

2. Can’t some sins disqualify a Christian? - The only sin that keeps someone from heaven is the rejection of Christ as his Savior. - Understand the nature of sin. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners by nature. If any sins can disqualify you, then all Christians would be disqualified because we all sin.

3. Doesn’t a Christian have to maintain his salvation? - The nature of Grace: Salvation begins and continues by God’s grace not human works. Christ not only saves us but also sustains us. (Imagine being in the middle of the ocean swimming and stranded. A boat comes along and throws you a float, then drives off and says “I hope you can make it the rest of the way!”) - We must reason from God’s word rather than rely on our feelings.

II. WE CAN BE SURE OF ETERNAL LIFE

1. Understand the nature of God’s gift. It’s not a wage. A gift is free. A wage is something you work for. If I received something by what I didn’t do, then by what I do, I could never lose it. Since salvation cannot be earned, it is not subject to future performance or works. 2. Understand the nature of eternal life: If lost it would be limited life, not eternal life; eternal life is unlimited. How can you have an end to that which has no end? 3. The New Testament clearly and repeatedly emphasizes that faith in Christ is the only condition for salvation. The few difficult passages must be interpreted in light of the clear passages. 4. If a person is unsure, he can make sure today by asking Jesus Christ for forgiving his sin and asking him for the gift of eternal life.

John 3:1-21 1John 2:25 “And this promise He Himself made to us: Eternal life.” Acts16:30-31

**Study the apostle, Paul. Read the book of Galatians (In a version of the bible you can understand: NIV is good). It’s a letter he wrote to the churches in Galatia. He is angry because there are teachers there that are adding requirements to salvation and Christianity. That works get you to heaven in addition to just believing what Jesus did for you and me. It’s like getting on a plane, and after the seatbelt sign goes off you get up out of your seat and tell the captain that you’ll be outside behind the plane pushing it along to help it get to its destination. “Works and good deeds” are NOT the means of salvation; they are the result of salvation.

- Especially take note of Galatians 2:16-21. Take note also that “the law” he is referring to, are the Ten Commandments. That is what’s called “the old covenant” where you had to obey the law and sacrifice a spotless lamb for the forgiveness of your sins. When Jesus came, “the Lamb of God”, he was sacrificed once and for all our sins. “The New Covenant.”

Merry Christmas! Terry Foss

-- Terry Foss (tfosscfoss@hotmail.com), December 24, 2004.

I appreciate your time and effort Mr. Foss, but I know that good works won't get me into Heaven. Only Jesus can get me into Heaven. But faith without works is dead. What good does it do to believe but not act upon that belief? I can say that I am a good Christian, but then cohabitate with 40 naked women. Does that make me a good Christian? No. Going to Mass (or church) every sunday and participating and making Christ a part of my life makes me a good Christian. We should try to emulate Christ in all we do. Did Jesus just sit there and simply believe? No. He showed the people how good God is. When Jesus says that He will profess to His Father those who profess Him before others, he doesn't mean professing as just saying, "I believe". He means showing Christ-like charity to those around us. Anyone can have faith. And we are not always saved. You're right, a gift is given freely, but it must also be accepted. By sinning we refuse the gift of salvation. By protestant logic, Satan should be saved. There was a time where he lived in Heaven and professed Jesus as Lord. Why would he lose his salvation? Again, I appreciate your thoughtfullness and your apparent concern for my immortal soul, but I have found my way. I know it's the right one, I just hope I'm strong enough to make it in the end. By the way, I think you have some misconceptions about Catholicism, maybe you should ask some questions on the forum. I would try to answer them, no one would try to convert you, we would just prefer you knew the truth.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 24, 2004.

"We should try to emulate Christ in all we do"

In ourselves we cannot do anything. However, by enjoying Christ day by day, feasting upon Him through the word and prayer, we can be constituted with Him, and grow in His divine life. Eventually He is the one who has his practical expression and dominion through us, fulfilling the purpose for which we were created (Gen 1:26). Eventually through His reconstituting us and transforming us with His divine life, we will become precious materials, measured, cut, fitted together with the other transformed and conformed saints, to become the built up Holy City, New Jerusalem.

Such a city bears the divine characteristics of a redeemed and transformed God-man, no longer expressing Adam (red clay), but rather a pure golden city, like transparent glass.

We do not arrive at such a consummation by way of immitation, but rather by inward metabolic transformation, brought about by reconstitution through being nourished with the heavenly diet.

This is why after Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt, He gave them manna to eat. Although they were positionally saved out of the world, they were still Egyptian in their constitution. Hence, God had to change their diet, so that dispositionally, they would be the proper persons to be God's testimony. We Christians too, were saved through the separating waters of baptism from the world, and yet our inward constitution is still worldly. Thus, we need to be filled, soaked, saturated, and permeated with the all-inclusive, pre- eminant, all-sufficient Christ.

Christ will become our daily salvation and moment by moment supply, supplying us with all that He is, dealing with all the negative elements of our natural old man, and adding Himself as our life to make us the real, living testimony of the New creation.

God commanded that man would fill the Earth and subdue it, but does He want the Earth filled and subdued with the natural man? Surely He wants a corporate God-Man, the church, to exercise authority over Satan, and express God's glory on the Earth.

In the Lord's prayer, the grammatical structure used in one portion of it, reveals the real nature of God's desire "Your name be sanctified, as in heaven, so also on the earth, your kingdom come, as in heaven, so also on the earth, your will be done, as in heaven, so also on the earth."

When this prayer is ultimately fulfilled, The Earth will be a realm in which God's name will be sanctified, His kingdom will be present, and the desire of His heart met.

Why then would we spend eternity in heaven? Revelation 21:2 - "And I saw a Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

This city is not a physical place. A physical city is not a bride. This city is the church, the redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, conformed, glorified, and built up corporate entity.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), December 25, 2004.

'I appreciate your time and effort Mr. Foss, but I know that good works won't get me into Heaven. Only Jesus can get me into Heaven. But faith without works is dead. What good does it do to believe but not act upon that belief? I can say that I am a good Christian, but then cohabitate with 40 naked women. Does that make me a good Christian? No. Going to Mass (or church) every sunday and participating and making Christ a part of my life makes me a good Christian. We should try to emulate Christ in all we do. Did Jesus just sit there and simply believe? No. He showed the people how good God is. When Jesus says that He will profess to His Father those who profess Him before others, he doesn't mean professing as just saying, "I believe". He means showing Christ-like charity to those around us. Anyone can have faith. And we are not always saved. You're right, a gift is given freely, but it must also be accepted. By sinning we refuse the gift of salvation. By protestant logic, Satan should be saved. There was a time where he lived in Heaven and professed Jesus as Lord. Why would he lose his salvation? Again, I appreciate your thoughtfullness and your apparent concern for my immortal soul, but I have found my way. I know it's the right one, I just hope I'm strong enough to make it in the end. By the way, I think you have some misconceptions about Catholicism, maybe you should ask some questions on the forum. I would try to answer them, no one would try to convert you, we would just prefer you knew the truth. '

this is true

so mr foss,all not-christians are going to burn in hell? all the good people that never got to know the bible,have grown up with a different religion or just simply can't believe it,but harm no one and love their fellow man and try to do as much good things as they can are going to burn in hell?

this makes no sense

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 25, 2004.

It isn't that all or even some non-christians burn in hell; it's all sinners.

All sinners who have died in their sins. There won't be a next time, any more chances to live without sins. And no way to be forgiven for sin. This life is where sin is forgiven. There's the bottom line. A soul may find forgiveness of sin; but only one way. That way is through the mediation of Jesus Christ, Our Redeemer. He died for all sinners. He gave His life for us; He who was innocent of sin.

We are called to repentence by Jesus; and to new life. Giving up our old life of sin. The key to this is His covenant with us. It's like an unbreakable contract. If we follow Him during our lives on earth, He takes away our sin.

He is the ONLY One who has that power, because He's God. God's Holy Son, who accepts the full penalty of our sin. By His passion and death on the cross; when we were the ones who merited death. Jesus is called Our Redeemer. This is what he redeems: your life; which was doomed to hell forever on account of the sin you were born in and lived in.

Sin will never be accepted into the presence of Almighty God; He can't look upon it. It's impossible for a soul in sin to enter heaven. The only alternative is hell, where all sin goes. But by paying with His own life for our sins, Jesus merits heaven for us. We are all forgiven because He identifies Himself with His followers. Almighty God His Father no longer sees us as the sinners we were, but as images of His own Son, sinless. By following Him in faith, we receive from Jesus all that He merited dying on the cross. This is called GRACE, sanctifying grace.

You may ask Why? How come God saves us through his Son's sacrifice on the cross? There can only be ONE answer to that:

God loves us. John says ''For God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, that those who believe in Him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.''

That's the only reason we ALL don't go to hell. Christ saves us.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 25, 2004.

but we all are sinners...

so what happens according to you eugene to the good people that for some reason don't or can't believe in jesus

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 26, 2004.

Good people aren't free from sin. I'm not always free from it; but by grace I'm prompted to implore God's forgiveness, as I repent of my bad thoughts, words and deeds. I can keep before the eyes of my soul a reminder of these sins, the thought of Jesus Christ, suffering and dying on the cross for my sin.

Many souls are good and upright in appearance. But not many think of repentence or sorrow for the bad they do every day. And they have before their eyes the three constant distractions from grace: the world, the flesh and the devil. To receive full forgiveness they must FIRST love God, their Creator. SECOND, confess before HIM, their unworthiness and sin. THIRD-- Reform their lives, change for the better and give up sin.

We've been discussing the manner in which some good souls may yet reach salvation through Jesus Christ, even when they remain ignorant. I favor that belief; but some find it controversial. My reasoning is based upon what the Church teaches us about God our Almighty Father. He is infinitely merciful and He loves us with an everlasting love. I must think that the most loving man in the world, and the most merciful, compassionate man in the world,

Are not even worthy of the word; not close to a thousandth of the love and mercy God offers us, if we repent and give ourselves to His Holy Son in faith. God allowed His only Son, infinitely holy and innocent of any offense, to be our sacrificial Lamb; dying on the cross.

I believe that among the millions who through no fault of theirs don't become Christians, some may be forgiven for their sins. They may repent sorrowfully, and implore the Creator's mercy. Christ will have offered Himself for them too. Nothing is impossible with God. All mankind may HOPE in Jesus because He shares in their humanity; in everything except sin.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 26, 2004.

'I believe that among the millions who through no fault of theirs don't become Christians, some may be forgiven for their sins. They may repent sorrowfully, and implore the Creator's mercy. Christ will have offered Himself for them too.'

i appreciate this a lot and this is a reasonable belief and i don't see any reason why it should be controversial to believe that good non-christians cannot be saved

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 26, 2004.

In case you haven't understood me.

The Church correctly teaches, good is a relative term. First; you have to be judged (by God) as invincibly ignorant through no fault of your own. If one has heard the Gospel, about God's salvation in Christ, yet did not believe, he/she cannot plead ignorance. Only when you were innocent of the Christian faith, never had knowledge, will God have cause to forgive you. Even then; all your sins must be sincerely repented and you must resolve never to offend God again. He can't forgive you if you fail to repent; not even if you're invincibly ignorant. Sins damn us all; even believers.

So, consider this: being ostensibly ''good'' will not save you from your sins. Only Jesus Christ can save you from them, and for that you must repent. God demands our repentence and faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 26, 2004.

but not everyone who hears the gospel can just simply believe it this is not a matter of choise

after all it's said in the bible : 'it isn't given to everyone to believe' (or something in that way)

if i don't believe in the bible,it's not because i choose so but because of many different things that caused me to think that way

also there are many people that know the gospels but are already stuck in different religion,they also can't help it believing that their religion is the true one just like you believe that yours is the only right one

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 26, 2004.

but not everyone who hears the gospel can just simply believe it this is not a matter of choise

{We do choose what we beelive...}-Zarove

after all it's said in the bible : 'it isn't given to everyone to believe' (or something in that way)

{do you know where? I do, and wat its talkign abut, but do you? Can you even find it?}-Zarove

if i don't believe in the bible,it's not because i choose so but because of many different things that caused me to think that way

{You choose to beelive the other many tings besides the Bible...trust me, Ive seen those "Other thigns"... many, any ahtits websites designed to discredit the Bible and mountians of shcolarship tt hat end, all for nough aaisnt me, sicne i see throuhg it...

Sorry, its not relaly a mate rof beleiving the othe things becaue ther onvencing, btu allowign yourself o be convenced of them, and tus you still make a choice.}-Zarove

also there are many people that know the gospels but are already stuck in different religion,they also can't help it believing that their religion is the true one just like you believe that yours is the only right one

{And many convert...prving that they can help it...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 26, 2004.

no zarove,

i can't choose right now to take it as a truth that jesus was god's son when i don't feel that way

it's not like knowing what's the right thing to do but choosing for the wrong while you know that it's wrong

i'm just convinced this way and i have nothing that could make me believe in it

i just can't take something as true because it's written down in a book and many other people take it as a truth

i'm just like that

and i don't see what is wrong with this?

are you telling me now that if i am for example a trully good person and try to do as much as good as i can to everyone but just don't believe in jesus that i am going to burn in hell?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 26, 2004.

sdqa

I understand what you mean. Belief is not as easy for some as it is for others. Belief to some extent seems out of ones own control. You have to come to it, and embrace it naturally. It does not seem to me to be something you simply "do"--- because you decide to.

Belief and Faith have always been very complicated for me, (after turning about 17) though I wish it weren't, I just don't seem to be able to simply turn it on. I continue to struggle with it to this day, but feel I've been making progress. For me its almost like reasembling somthing that sort of fell apart.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 26, 2004.

If one hears but will not believe, he's not in ignorance. He's chosen not to believe. It's a conscious decision. Furthermore, great numbers of unbelievers choose not to believe God for the most selfish motives. They will not give up their life of sin. That is defiance, not ignorance.

It can be the most offensive of sins; to know what God is demanding as your Creator, and nevertheless defy Him, saying, ''Prove it; send me to hell.''

When you say ''just because it's written in a book,'' you tell God He lies. He gave us the Book. That ''book'' is the world's record of what Christ Himself taught. Since we know the words He spoke, the great wonders He worked, and the changes He's brought into the lives of His followers, we freely give our faith.

Therefore, you should not ''choose'' to ignore the Bible. Jesus speaks to you; you get to hear Him and understand Him in the Book. His words aren't common, or mere opinions. He shows us divine wisdom in everything He reveals. His words inspire love; and with love comes faith. You have to read them yourself. It won't matter at all what I tell you. You must discover Christ for yourself.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 26, 2004.

no zarove, i can't choose right now to take it as a truth that jesus was god's son when i don't feel that way

{Your feeligns are irrlevaNT. feeligns change as one grows and learns. Nazi's felt great gassign Jews to death. There feeligns did not make htis morlaly right. Ted Bundy felt great killing people. Fellings origionate with toughts, and htus, your thinkign is what causes you to feel a certain way.

You only feel this way becaue you have cnvenced yourself to.}-Zarove

it's not like knowing what's the right thing to do but choosing for the wrong while you know that it's wrong

{No, its baout feeling soemthing, and you already admited on another thread you feel this way becaue of your education. You think that educaiton eliminates chirstendom, when in reality educaitonal bias does.

Yur feeligns origionate from your biases, not the facts, and this isnt about choosing the wrign thing while knwong its wrong, its baotu chooseing the wrong...becaue it feels good...}-Zarove

i'm just convinced this way and i have nothing that could make me believe in it

{education can, and learning. You said education eliminartes christendom on another thread, and yet what made me a firm beleive was reasoned, intelelgent comments, not rash emotivism.

You see, you learend form a baised, narorw eiw that christendom is untenable and Modenr cence and philosophy undermines its credibility, you chose to accept this, and now tou feel the way you do.

Now you stubbornly refuse to even consider that tou and tyour educaitonal bias may be wrong, and isnetad waste everyoens tiem comig here to attakc us to vlaidate tyourself, tbus proving how weak your faith relaly is in what you feel to be true. }-Zarove

i just can't take something as true because it's written down in a book and many other people take it as a truth

{Yes you can, and you do. You said in another thread that you lost faith in Christendom becaue of youreducaiton, whcu is derived from nothign but what peopel write in books, wich you chose to blidly accept.

All we ask is for a fair intelelctual appeal, which you refuse to allow because of intellectual bias and immaturity.}-Zarove

i'm just like that

{No, you are an immature child wo makes cheap personal attakc and wants o make himself feel better...trust me, ive seen your ilk before.}-Zarove

and i don't see what is wrong with this?

{Being diliberatley obtuse and arrogant will win few firneds, a findl,y word of advice of "whats wrong with it".}-Zarove

are you telling me now that if i am for example a trully good person and try to do as much as good as i can to everyone but just don't believe in jesus that i am going to burn in hell?

{God, not I, determiens that, but remember, its not by works, lest any man shodl boast...

Besides, you advocate sex outside ofmarriage and claim nothigns rogn with it, and advicate several other ideas abotu mrolaity that are queatioanble, and made cheap personal attakcs on my charecte and several other postrs, how good do we relaly think you are?

The good person argument holds no weight if you make cheap, vendiuctive personal attakcs for petty reasons, and just declarign yourself a good person doesnt render tyou so.

Repent, turn to God, and change yor ways, fo the least you will gain mor fgirned and repsectability.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 26, 2004.

Just to clarify what I was trying to say, I do my best to follow and believe all of the teachings of the Church. My point was that belief is easier for some than others. I try but some seem to find it so easy to do. Almost effortless and natural as it should be. It doesn't come as easy to me,---as much as I try.

I'm not talking about being a good person or a good Christian, my problems involve some of the difficult teachings (for me.) I accept them but try not to intellectualze about the specifics. That always gets me in trouble.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 26, 2004.

Jim,

Most faithful Catholics, I believe, experience a crisis of faith at some point. I stress faithful, because those overcome their doubt. It's only human to struggle when confronted by the evidence of your eyes.

I often marvel at the good fortune of some souls who were favored, coming face to face with Our Lord, and/or with saints such as the most Blessed Virgin. Yet, even a great soul like Saint Theresa of Avila was afflicted with what she called ''aridity,'' a strange feeling of indifference during her prayers. As if they failed to awaken any spiritual enthusiasm sometimes. It caused her much sadness.

Our Saviour told her directly this would never matter. She had the use of her will; and by that will was serving just as fervently as any soul can. Feeling exalted or ecstatic was of secondary importance. God knows our hearts better than we know them. He loves us particularly in our human weakness and allows generously for it. As long as we love Him truly, and keep trying to raise our hearts to Him. It's the soul's will to become totally His which makes saints. You must follow through bravely. Sometimes faith requires courage and perseverance more from YOU than from others. Just remember every day, --EVERY DAY; how much God loves you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 26, 2004.

sdqa, You said that you are from China on another thread. China is communist. Communism is against religion. Did you ever think you were brainwashed? That in all your education they misconstrued information to rule out the existence of God? That is the purpose of communism. I suggest you read 1984.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 27, 2004.

yes brainwashing is indeed the purpose of communism cameron but i've lived almost all my life in europe and my parents are catholic and i was raised catholic

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 27, 2004.

Faith is different from belief. Faith is a gift, belief is acquired.

IOW, if your education, culture and all the social milieu you live in is atheist or whole heartedly, and smugly materialistic as it is in Europe, then chances are your "belief" will be rooted in the smug idea that this life is all there is, and we'd better just take advantage of the present for enjoyment.

Now, intellectually, you may still have faith in Christ- a given faith from your youth perhaps, dusted off once or twice per year, but beyond that, since it is unsupported culturally, socially, in everyday life (no rituals, no daily prayer routine) the gift of faith will not bear fruit in either holiness (praxis) or in convincing others of the truth of God and man.

I too lived in Europe and actually tried working with people...they all knew their catechism - indeed Europeans are smug in the idea that they are smarter than the rest of humanity. It seems the superiority complex of the Nazis and the inevitability fatalism of the communists (that all is mere matter and in the end the state is the only thing worth living for) have taken hold to the collective European mindset.

Which is why when ever America does the heavy lifting elsewhere in the world, Europe is the first to complain that "they're just a bunch of coy-boys" - that sense of innate superiority lurks under the surface - it's a belief, rooted no doubt in their education, culture, etc. and then, while Americans, Africans, Asians strive to hold the line morally or (gasp) even try to overthrow the regimes inspired by Atheistic philosophers, the Europeans take the fatalist approach - believing that there is no solution, that the war can't be won, that the West is doomed, that it's just not worth the sacrifice of the pleasant here and now existence.

But what do we expect of a people who suffered repeated anti-Catholic and anti-Christian shocks for the last 400 years???

The Middle ages came to an end when all the "A" team players died in the Black Plague. Look at every sector of society except the small artist class... those who didn't care for the sick and so survived weren't as excellent as their forebears... the corruption of the 13th century was a direct result of the Plague at the end of the 12th.

Then throw in the Mongol invasion that wiped out many ancient and very vibrant Eastern European nations. Throw in the Turks who wiped out the military orders,

By the 14th century you had a serious crisis of faith across France, heresy afoot everywhere else... the 15th century saw the loss of the North and England and virtual civil war in France over religion.

By the time the Masons and Enlightenment thinkers gave way to the Reign of terror, most of the monks, nuns, bishops, and priests of Europe were dead or in exile. The Jesuits were disbanded under threat of open war on the Church by the supposedly "Catholic" kings of Europe in 1773. All those kings (*and the Pope who signed off on it) died in the ensuing decade with the Reign of Terror and Empire.

No Jesuits from 1773 until re-founded in 1815 meant serious losses in the missions as well as permanent loss of Catholic influence in the circles of power in Europe.

So I think, given the near constant assault the Church has sustained in Europe over the centuries, the question isn't why the Church is so weak there now, but why it even exists at all!

The answer of course is that the minority always rules the majority, and smaller groups of people paradoxically have a better chance to endure than larger ones if only because they present a smaller target.

But the meek always inherit the earth because the proud and arrogant overreach.

So yes, Christians are (and have been for some time) the minority in Europe. But when the current generation of materialistic hedons die out in 40 years (early deaths brought on by STDs, liver failure, and perhaps Muslim warfare) the only people of European stock left will be the Christians.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 27, 2004.

Europe is almost worse.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 27, 2004.

So many questions about heaven..

The deepest one to ask yourself, is: do I believe that there IS "eternal life"? because if the answer to that one is "yes"..then it doesn't matter one bit how many people here in this one assure you that you will obtain heaven, or how many people tell you that reaching heaven is a "maybe". Once you firmly BELIEVE that eternal life awaits you, you will begin to look at your earthly existence in a different light.

Knowing that in some period of perhaps years, yet also perhaps months or DAYS or hours, you will be faced with spending all eternity either in bliss or in torment should be sufficient to prod one to contemplate seeking a relationship with God. Everything else rather pales in comparison, does it not?

What to wear, what cool CD to listen to tonight..who to hang out with New year's Eve..all kind of good "stuff", but irrelevant to eternity if one doesn't have any plans as to where one will eventually end up.

I think today of all of those THOUSANDS of people who suddenly lost their earthly lives in Asia when the Tsunami hit..how many of them had any notion that their personal "debates" over heaven or hell had come to an abrupt end? Someday, the end of the "debate" will be there for every single one of us. We WILL know.

It's much more than an interesting discussion..so much more.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 27, 2004.

Lesley,
Our human consciousness can't picture (for itself) anything prior to an earliest infancy in our lives. If it weren't because we grow into an existing human society with parents and others to prove it, the past would be a total mystery. The past would be darkness. Our future is no more positive, unless we know something by revelation. Nothing is real for our senses until we experience it.

Christians have an understanding of what's to come based entirely upon God's promises. Not just of a life beyond this one. A life of everlasting joy or eternal retribution for sin.

You know there are others making believe they'll return to earth as some kind of living creature by re-incarnation. We would have to speculate, if it weren't for the Word of God. But He has spoken; first by His prophets and now by Christ His Son.

We have Jesus Christ's Holy Word for it: There is life eternal for us in His kingdom. We don't have to investigate or corroborate anything. Everlasting life awaits you because you believe His words. He sheds light on our future; He is light. Whoever hasn't believed is in darkness.

It's the greatest tragedy in all of human existence to have to live in darkness. And whether we know it or not, we meet people all the time who live this way. So we ought to contemplate always how serious life truly is. Only those souls who have received Christ realise the eternal consequences. Our lives should be spent in giving Him the most profound THANKS for the light of His divine Word, and praying for others who have yet to see.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 27, 2004.

Paul, can u please tell me what the New Earth is from a Catholic point of view ?

Cheers.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), December 28, 2004.

The new heavens and earth will be inhabitable by humans with resurrected, and glorified bodies.

Materially the earth will of course be made of parts - space/time.

Yet spiritually or substantially, all will be perfected - change will not result in tears, suffering, and death.

Like Christ's resurrected body which can walk through walls (because it is more real than the walls!), our glorified bodies won't suffer, thirst, hunger or die.

They will be bodies though so I presume food will exist (to perfect the stomach) and water too. Being human, I can only imagine we will all be joined in the wedding feast of the Lamb for an eternity of friendship.

Perhaps we will see the great dramatic stories of countless human lives, praising God for all his marvelous interventions, gifts, and consolations in our fellow brothers and sisters' lives.

I imagine that communication will still exist - an eternity of song, poetry, and fathoming all the questions of existence from the mouth of Our Lord.

CS Lewis' book Perelandra has an excellent chapter - towards the end - on what this paradise and 'great dance' may be like.

Peace.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 28, 2004.

''Eye has not seen or ear heard; nor has it entered the heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love Him (1 Cor 3,) --That's what we must remember. It's vain to think we can foresee the glory of heaven.

I've turned 67 now, and can't help feeling how close I am now to the truth. Does it enter my heart at all, what God will reveal? Only this-- I'm anxious to see the face of Jesus. If any other thing gives us joy in the next life, it shouldn't be half the joy of knowing the eternal, glorious face of Christ. AT LAST!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 28, 2004.