German Cardinal Says Dialogue with Islam Not Possible Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:00:00 AM GMT

Berlin, Dec. 10 (CWNews.com) - Germany's Cardinal Karl Lehmann told a newspaper that he didn't think Christians and Muslims could engage in a productive dialogue. The Archbishop of Mainz said in the interview in Die Welt published on Thursday that Muslims do not consider Christians as equals and that Islam is a religion based on war and conquest.

Relations between Christians and Muslims has become a tense topic in Germany, as it has in the rest of Europe, with Germans wondering how to integrate 2.3 million mainly foreign-born Muslims into their society.

"The basic requirement (for dialogue) is that people meet as equals," said Cardinal Lehmann. In the past, the cardinal has been a strong backer of interfaith dialogue. "This is dubious in relations with Islam, there is no mutual recognition. One can build a huge mosque in Rome for example, but even celebrating a Christian service in a country like Saudi Arabia is problematic," he added.

Islamic Council spokesman Ali Kizilkaya accused Catholics of prejudice against Islam, which he said was a religion of peace. "They prove that the Church still approaches dialogue with us with prejudice and a tendency to exclude us," he told Reuters. "Islam means peace and Muslims living in Germany live in peace," he added. Most of Germany's Muslims are of Turkish origin.

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-- - (David@excite.com), December 12, 2004

Answers

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-- - (.@...), December 12, 2004.

I truely think there is a difference between extremist Islamic schools of thought and the many Muslams who are out there, like us trying to live out their lives. I know a few,--- a handful of followers of Islam, (though I'm no expert)---but we get on well. They love and want the best for their families. I'm aware of no malise toward me or my family or friends.

Extremists on the other hand are like hidden poison,--- deadly and you know not where they come from, so "all" become suspect.

I'm personally not currently very optimistic about Muslam/Christian relations---things seem very bad. Still I have a tendancey to worry and see the dark side so my bias may cause me to miss the possible positives.

But based on those I know, my relationships with and experience with Muslams, and taking into consideration the good side of human nature,--- it may not be so bleek.

Minority extremism has caused horrifying problems everywhere for centuries among many religious and political groups. THe rest of humanity just seems to get sucked into conflicts without really wanting to.

There must be a way for the majority of those without violent agendas to come to the forefront. THere are many more God fearing good Muslams, than bomb throwing, suicidal spoilers.

Unfortunately I'm without an answer or a suggestion to this problem other than to keep the lines of communication open. That to me may be the only hope.

The problem may lie with the tremendous passion of the extremist, versus the "let be" attitudes of the relatively benign masses.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 12, 2004.

The Cardinal is right. Notice he isn't condemning muslims, not even their false religion. He's saying dialogue isn't possible. Set aside a judgment or evaluation of Islamic culture and/or virtues; which will always be a losing argument. Even the most charitable dialogue can only arrive at detente; co-existence and mutual respect. But the hard fact is, a muslim CAN'T respect anyone he considers an infidel. So it's unilateral charity. We'll always be considered inferiors in any dialogue. How to overcome that lack of charity coming from the other one? Even if he claims we're people ''of the book'', we can never teach him a thing! That makes true dialogue a misnomer.

Finally, a Catholic prelate who can tell truth from fiction.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 13, 2004.

Of course, like all things we have to distinguish between different levels of "dialogue" - as I think the Pope does repeatedly. One can and must in fact dialogue (talk reasonably with) individual Muslims, especially leaders. This is what the SF and Marines do in Iraq and Afghanistan - work with, talk with, dialogue with those who are not Taliban or Al Qaeda nuts.

It's also a historical fact that Christians have "dialogued" or used diplomacy with Muslims since the beginning - the First Crusade marched THROUGH Beruit without bloodshed because they dialogued with the town leaders and discussed with them their intentions were not to wipe out every Muslim per se, but just to liberate Jerusalem (down the road) from another clan of Muslims... Relieved that their city and lives weren't threatened the Muslims of Beruit gave the Christians food, fodder, and Godspeed on their way...

Whole religious orders were founded later on the premise of buying Christian captives from slavery. Obviously then some sort of dialogue existed.

If however the dialogue in question is an attempt to create permanent peaceful co-existence between religions... that seems doomed to failure if either of the two sides refuses on principle to accept that men are free to choose what religion they will follow.

INDIVIDUALLY, dialogue is OK - even to be sought as we are to live peacefully with our neighbors. But INSTITUTIONALLY, (and this is what I presume the good Cardinal is talking about) there are major problems to inter-religious dialogue since Islam as lived in Saudi Arabia and taught by the Wahabi sect does not recognize the human right to religion or proselystism.

States whose very existence is due to the religion and the culture this religion creates, are threatened by converts because the oaths of allegiance they rely on for law and order are considered valid only from within that religion.

Thus the only way out is an extra-statal one wherein the political sphere is either overthrown or absorbed into a greater one that guarantees civil obedience apart from the culture and religion of the citizens.

Muslims can and have allowed minorities of Jews and Christians to live in their lands - as second class citizens, taxed, and often scape-goated. But at least to date they have never allowed these Christians or Jews to be given equal civil rights and protections.

And partially this is due to the different religious texts and traditions they have and the Mullahs who have interpreted them through history. Part of this is due their history which up to the 20th century was almost entirely monarchical - societies structured by family, clan, and tribe. For an individual to break with the religion would be to also break with the culture of family, clan, and tribe - thus this religious converstion would be seen as inevitably an act of social rebellion and ultimately an act of treason against the state.

To be sure, the above conception was universal even in Europe. The Church has LONG forbidden forced baptisms and conversions - precisely because these happened from time to time.

And the Church had long agreed with the Muslims that minorities who never converted ought to be granted some level of respect - no forced conversion. But just as the culture and political system of Arabia fused culture, state, and religion, so did Europe. Non-Christians were not on the same level as Christians. And both the Old and New Testaments had sentences making such distinction.

So what to do?

Well, in the Roman era, the empire was so huge and powerful that it was thought possible to allow different religions and cultures to exist peacefully with one another within and under the aegis of the overrulling Imperial system.

So long as some type of allegiance (and tax) was owed to the Emperor and the law was obeyed, Rome granted various levels of autonomy to the provinces and didn't mess with the various religions. Isis, Mithras, and other religions rose and competed with Rome's religion and Christianity. Temples and priestly castes rose and fell along with Roman religion.

Perhaps it is possible to craft a political system that respects human rights apart from culture and religion - that guarantees rights to believers and ethnic groups qua human beings, not qua believers or ethnicities... I think of all political systems, the USA has come closest to achieving this balance.

But no system is utopia because even though the rules may be intellectually sound, the people who follow them or break them, or fail to understand them fully, are flawed.

Original sin is constantly undermining the best efforts of Able to live peacefully with Cain. Dialogue will always play a part in the relations of human beings - since we are by nature social beings. But only when the Lord comes again will men truly be able to beat their swords into plow shares.

At most we will have zones of peaceful co-existence among various believers and groups who share a common citizenship and allegiance to a common civil ethic. But we won't achieve lasting peace between nations who don't share the same ethic or civil goals. Dialogue and diplomacy will always happen - but it won't always solve the conflicts that rise. Sometimes Able with simply have to stand up to Cain or be slain by him.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 14, 2004.

Oops. It's Abel, not Able. :-)

-- Joe (Joestong@yahoo.com), December 14, 2004.

Actually, a lot of Islamic people living in Germany aren't living in peace. I watched a news program where a reporter went into a Mosque with a hidden camera, and the leader was inciting the Muslims against Germans. On the same program, a reporter got a hold of textbooks from a Muslim school, and they all praised Jihad. Even one of the 9/11 hijackers was from Hamburg. As stated above, most Muslims are Turkish, this is true, Turkish workers came into Germany after WW2 because a lot of the German workforce died. But they keep coming, and that causes friction. There is so much friction that the state I live in (Sachsen) just elected the modern Nazi party to the state legislature, as well as the state of Brandenburg.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 14, 2004.

Mortalium Animos Encyclical decreed by Pope Pius XI on January 6, 1928 sternly warning all to dismiss any talk of ecumenism for only in the universal Church founded by Christ are the Truths manifested and salvation possible. It contradicts all the post-conciliar church is attempting today with their ecumenical bent by compromising the Truths and Traditions that Pius XI sought to guard so carefully.

-- - (David@excite.com), December 15, 2004.

The fact that "only in the universal Church founded by Christ are the Truths manifested and salvation possible" is precisely the reason why ecumenism is a divine mandate for the Church. Jesus expressed His divine will that all should be one, and directly commanded His Church to actively go forth and make disciples of all peoples. That is the purpose of true ecumenism - to take steps toward bringing people home, in direct obedience to the command of Our Lord. To fail in ecumenism is a serious sin against charity.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 15, 2004.

This thread started with talk about relations between Islam and Catholicism. Using the Catholic Church's terminology, that is "interreligious dialogue." It is not "ecumenism."

Using the Catholic Church's terminology, "ecumenism" represents those efforts made by separated bodies of Christians (and only Christians) toward unity.

I always trust the documents of the popes (such aas Pius XI's encyclical mentioned above) to represent the outcome of deep prayer and reflection, guiding the universal flock into a prudent course of action for that particular time in history. I believe the Pius XI, seeing the widespread animosity of many non- Catholic Christian leaders toward the Catholic Church, made the decision against major ecumenical efforts in his time. His action was not a "teaching," but an act of discipline. Thus it was subject to change by himself or by a later pope.

Pius XI was not condemning the concept of "ecumenism," in and of itself. Being ignorant by comparison with Pius XI, and lacking the special graces that God gives to popes, those who love the ecumenism of today (and that ought to be all of us) have no right to second- guess the leadership and disciplinary decisions of that pope of 80 years ago.

In just the same way, though, Popes John XXIII and Paul VI, are not subject to our second-guessing. I believe that they saw a much different attitude toward Catholicism in the words and deeds of non- Catholic Christian leaders of their time, 30 years after Pius XI. Thus they sensed that the times and conditions were more opportune for an effort toward ecumenism. They did not "disobey" Pius XI, because they were under no obligation to continue his delaying of ecumenical efforts.

-- X ($9.88@munny.com), December 15, 2004.

You said it very succinctly. (A 50 cent word for Oh Boy!)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 15, 2004.

Father Donald Reeves A Priest Rebuilding Bosnian Mosques Date Friday,Jul 30 ,2004 Dialogue with Muslims- Name F - United Kingdom Profession Question Dearest Father Reeves,

I am very thankful to God, for instilling such compassion in people such as you.

What I want to know is, is it a solely Mosque for Muslims. I mean, how about the sermons and talk and activities and such, will you wish to know the content of that beforehand? Or will you leave it solely to the committee of the mosque, Thank you, may Allah guide you and us all the right way aameen.

Answer It is a Mosque for Muslims alone - what happens once the Mosque is built and open will be for the local Islamic community to decide..

Name aiman - India Profession student Question Peace,

Did a Christianity teaching inspire you doing such a good act?

Answer Yes, I hope so. The teaching of Jesus about the kingdom of God is very important for me - that will be a world in which everyone flourishes....

Name Aisha - Profession Question What about the mosque itself and its architect design?

Answer Thank you for the question. Perhaps I did not make myself clear in answering other questions. The Mosque to be reconstructed will be exactly as it was in 1579 - a Mosque designed by the School of Sinan. It will be a working Mosque not a Museum - there will be no Christian symbols in the Mosque - although as it happens the design of the Mosque was heavily influenced by Christian churches.

Name Dina - Profession Question How can the Religion be a way of integration and not isolation?

Answer It should be for integration - but so often in the Balkans or Northern Ireland, for example, religion is used to reinforce nationalist values thus helping to create the conditions for isolation. We need to learn how to appreciate each others religions.

Name Mustafa - Profession Question Why did you choose Bosnia for launching such a project ?

Answer Because Bosnia is a home for European Islam, and because Bosnia is traditionally the region where East meets West, where Catholicism meets orthodoxy, and where Islam and Christianity meet. It is therefore appropriate that an example of Muslim/Christian collaboration should find its place in Bosnia.

Name Belal - Profession Question How successful is your project?

Answer It is difficult to tell. We have been working in Banja Luka for 4 years - and we still have not started to reconstruct the Ferhadija Mosque - which was destroyed in May 1993. We have been working with the other religious groups as well to prepare the way for the Mosque - one of 16 destroyed in 1993.

Name Muhammed - Profession Question Are there any Muslim groups who cooperate with you ?

Answer Yes - but it took a lot of time to get the trust of the Muslim community in Bosnia. People in Bosnia are very suspicious of the West, and often distrust us because they feel, especially Muslims that we let them down in the war. So you cannot take anyone's goodwill in Bosnia for granted... you have to work at getting trust.

Name Abbas - Profession Question What do you mean by building new Europe and what is your vision of the European stance towards the role of the religion in the public domain?

Answer Well, this is a difficult question to answer in a few sentences. i wonder what you think about this. My feeling about Europe is that it is a region of the world where the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. We have all been brought up to think that Europe = business and jobs and flourishing economy, etc. But the reality is different; 40 million people in the EU do not even officially exist - migrant workers, etc. There is a vast underclass of people whose voices need to be heard.

Europe is the most secular of all the regions in the world - the institutional churches are dying. I don't think it is the job of governments to encourage one religion over another. BUT I think all European governments find religion a strange phenomenon something they find odd, and are even fearful of - the discussion about head scarves in France reveals that.

Name Mona - Profession Question What is your attitude towards the discussion of religion and the European constitution?

Answer My view about the place of 'God' in the Constitution is that it should certainly mention our Christian heritage but also include the religion of the Jewish people and Islam. Jews and Muslims have made an enormous contribution to our society and civilization.

Name Adam - Profession Question Dear, why do you start your initiative and what kind of challenges did you face?

Answer A great injustice was done to the Muslims in Bosnia, and therefore as a matter of justice we are working in Bosnia. There are many difficulties - but we cannot stand by and allow the attempt of genocide to triumph.

Name farrukh - Pakistan Profession a student Question what is your opinion about Jihad and terrorism?

Answer I am not a Muslim scholar but I have always understood Jihad as a form of struggle to be faithful to Islam - historically Islam has been a much more tolerant religion than Christianity. There is, of course, no justification for terrorism but I understand what drives people to terrorism - frustration, humiliation and a complete failure to have their voices heard. But I condemn all forms of terrorism.

Name Muslim - Profession Question Do you have a political program or is it only cultural and religious agenda?

Answer I reckon Bosnia has no future at all outside Europe - and it has to function as a modern democratic state. I am very clear about that and I certainly tell people about this when asked ---we work very closely with the other 2 religions in Banja Luka - the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church...we do have a sort of political program - we have established the Banja Luka Civic Forum - this stands for 'Change happens when those who do not usually speak are heard by those who do not usually listen' - that's about breathing new life into politics - creating opportunities for consultation. Easily said than done in a post communist, post conflict situation.........

Name abg - Malaysia Profession technician Question Are you going to convert to ISLAM after this meaningfull project?

Answer Sorry we were cut off. So I am starting again ---No I shall not be converting to Islam. But I have learnt to appreciate Islam in its true form in a way I would never normally have done, I like for example the Muslim's observance of Ramadan, the concern for the poor and the family and the way in which religion and life are one. As I learn more about Islam, so I appreciate more about my own religion - I like the way Christianity develops trying all the time to make sense of the world. I think appreciation of another religion is what most people believe by the word reconciliation.

Name saverly - Malaysia Profession Question Is there any other Priests against your project?

Answer LOTS I am sure and I have met a few. What's a Christian doing building a Mosque they ask - so I repeat what I have been saying in all these answers that it is really a matter of justice - that's why I am doing this. I know there are great differences between our 2 religions - and so it is very marvelous when in spite of our differences we can work together.

Name Salman - Profession Question What is a priest upto on an Islamic site ?

Answer Well at the moment nothing because we are raising £3million for the project - it will be a Heritage project. The Mosque will be rebuilt exactly as it was.

The reason why the Soul of Europe is working in Bosnia is because of the INJUSTICE which was inflicted on the Muslim community. I think doing justice is a preliminary to making peace, and these activities transcend our religious labels, although these labels cannot be destroyed or ignored.

Islamonline Live Dialogue Editing Desk

Islamonline.net has hosted Father .Reeves with fully willingness. His courageous project has to be encouraged from all the people who are seeking Justice. Justice is a fixed value in Islam and must be reflected on the Islamic Web sites.

Name Dally - Profession Question It seems ,on your website , that you want to give a voice of the voiceless in Europe . Can you explain more?

Answer Yes, think for a moment of the 15 million Muslims in Europe. Only very recently are they beginning to get organized, and this is a slow progress. Many Muslims particularly those who have come from other countries recently don't feel they matter or belong - they are discriminated against in getting jobs, they suffer appalling harassment from the police, and are regarded with fear and sometime contempt by middle class and working class white people. Their voices need to be heard, and there signs that this happening - through the European Islamic Conference for example. This what I mean by voiceless - After all Muslim communities all over Europe pay their taxes and are European citizens -so they should have a part to play in Europe and it is in our interest that they do so.

Name tajudeen - Nigeria Profession accountancy Question Good day Father,

What really inspired you for doing this? I am astonished! Not because of your faith as Islam accommodates other faiths too but because in that part of your world sentiments are fast nurtured against Islam.

Please tell "us" what inspired you.

Answer I think it was just that sense of injustice that has kept me going. When I arrived in Banja Luka I learnt what happened to the Muslims there - some 70000 were ethnically cleansed and 16 Mosques destroyed in 6 months - even though Banja Luka was not a war zone. I leant too of the intention to remove every trace of Islam from Bosnia and Muslims had lived there for 500 years. It seems right to me that there should be an inspirational sign for the world that at least the Ferhadija should be rebuilt as a Christian Muslim action of collaboration.

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp? hGuestID=v07mAl

-- trill (zill@ions.com), December 16, 2004.

Quran sura 47 Prophet Mohammad says "Those who reject Islam, cut their necks".

-- (mailto:__!@__.__), December 24, 2004.

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates." (Qur'an 47:4)

You forgot to mention this verse is in the context of combatants in war. Unless you meant another verse. If so, please provide it. Also notice the verse says that when an enemy is defeated he should be made prisoner rather than be killed.

-- Shirlee (zam@zam.com), December 24, 2004.