regards on marriage, sex, relationships...of the Catholic Chruch

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i've red here many posts on the site and i got an image of what a relationship between 2 people means to you catholics

i was shocked when i red these things,...so much that i even decided to post here

first of all,

you can't have sex when you're not married

i'm not promoting one night stands,slutty behaviour,prostitution or i don't know what else...

but i mean,have you never heard that 2 people can really really love each other without being married?

or sometimes just can't get married even if they would like to(for example if they're younger than 18)

i mean how can you have a true complete relationship without any intimacy?

so all that couples can do is just hug and kiss?

and if they want to get closer to each other they have to get married?

sorry but i think this is sick

so to continue,if you want a real intimate relationship,you have to get married,and when you're married when you're having sex 'you must leave the possibility open to have a child'

i mean what is wrong with sex when you love each other???,why should you immediately want to have a child?those are 2 separate things,why are you like this???is this love for your fellow man to command and decide someone's fate by judging what is sinfull and what not

you're saying that artificial contraceptives are wrong,and nfp is right?

why? because it isn't 'artificial'?

it's the same thing!

it's avoiding to have a child

does it really matter if you wear a condom or you plan when to have sex and not to get pregnant?

i don't think so...

i think your church should stop giving sex a 'bad' image and maybe realize that the meaning of sex is in the first place something between two people that love each other and then later if THEY want to create a new life;sex is not because of reproduction,i mean we aren't animals right?

-- robert (tulenedoispasconnaitre@hotmail.com), December 12, 2004

Answers

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

You said,"sex is not because of reproduction,i mean we aren't animals right?" First of all, sex is about reproduction, that's what God meant when He said in Genesis, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it" it is because we aren't animals that we are called to celebacy outside of marriage. If two people love each other so much, then what would be their reservations on getting married? I seriously doubt someone under 18 would TRULY know what love is. I know from experience, I am 18 and I still have a lot to learn about love. Think about if an unmarried couple had a child. Do you think it would be fair to that child for him to know that his parents don't even have a relationship? That at any moment daddy could just get up and leave, and never come back? A couple should commit themselves in marriage before they commit themselves to each other in sex.

"i think your church should stop giving sex a 'bad' image"

On the contrary, it is people like you who say it's ok to have sex with anyone you want that give sex a bad image. Don't you see how cheap and meaningless it is when you give yourself outside of marriage? What does marriage mean to you if not giving yourself openly and fully? You cannot give yourself fully to your spouse if you have sex with others. You then make no distinction between your spouse and others, therefore invalidating marriage.

"so to continue,if you want a real intimate relationship,you have to get married,and when you're married when you're having sex 'you must leave the possibility open to have a child'"

Now you're getting it! And in conclusion, I'll leave you with this quote from Genesis 38:9-10 "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also." The man Onan's brother died, and he followed Jewish custom and took his sister in law as his own wife. But he wasted his seed upon the ground, and was struck dead. You see, sexuality is a gift from God, it is a beautiful thing. You are literally throwing away that gift when you use a condom, or any other contraceptive. It is you, sir, who is cheapening sex, a beautiful gift from God.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 12, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

""You cannot give yourself fully to your spouse if you have sex with others. You then make no distinction between your spouse and others""

when and where did i ever mention something like that??

-- robert (....@....com), December 12, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

You didn't. But it's obvious from your message that you feel that way. My point is that sex should be the pinnacle of your love for someone. You're right, it is for people who love each other, but it should be for the person you love THE MOST, who should be your spouse. It's not for anyone who loves somebody else. Sex is the most beautiful and intimate thing anyone can do, and it sickens me that people think it's ok to be promiscious.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 12, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Sorry, I meant to say, "that you DON'T feel that way"

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 12, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

i've red here many posts on the site and i got an image of what a relationship between 2 people means to you catholics

{No you didnt. what tyoy mwan is "Sexual relationship". I have several relationships with numerous people, nien arre sexual...relationship doesnt mean sex.}-Zarove

i was shocked when i red these things,...so much that i even decided to post here

{Shocked? I doibt it, what ou mean is that you want to feingh utrage so you can present yourself as an enlightened soil fighitng evil, imbittered Catholcis who don bother to look a tthe real world so gyou can feel superior. The entire tone of this post is condecneding and places its author in pseudi-superiority byt he manner of which he makes demands. However, the author has no clue as o the real world applications.}-Zarove

first of all,

you can't have sex when you're not married

{Thats common in most cultures lad. even in communist Cia this is he Ideal... its also the best system for Humans and one of the most obvious...}-Zarove

i'm not promoting one night stands,slutty behaviour,prostitution or i don't know what else...

{Yes, you are, you just dotn relaise it, sinc your "Wise and mature" veiw of sex will inevitabely lead to slutty behaviour because peopel will learn to disvalue sex. By placign a higher vlaue on sex we make it more valuable...}-Zarove

but i mean,have you never heard that 2 people can really really love each other without being married?

{Yes, however, what your describign is nto love but wanton lust. If I truely love soemone, it need not be expressed sexually. Indeed, some of the most profound expressions of love are NOT sexual. he troubel is you thinkSex IS love, and they go hand-in-hand, which is utterly absurd.}-Zarove

or sometimes just can't get married even if they would like to(for example if they're younger than 18)

{You know, there is a logical reason why societyplaces these restaints on people. ( In many sttae sin the US its 16, by the way, and in soem countrus its as low as 12...)

People that are too young do not know the difference between love, lust, and freindship, and are confused easily. Oftent hey think ther ein love when there not. If they ave sex, as you advocate here, becase ther in love, they may love to regret the actions in the fututre. this is esepcially true of women. How many girls are tricked each year by boys who proffess an undying love for the girl, give in, have sex, then he dumps hem and makes them feel cheap and degraded? Teenage girls, and boiys for that matter, lack the maturity to make wise desisions, and shoudl not, as a atural co sequence, have sex, since they wont be able to deal withhte inevitable emotional consequences. I know, Ive seen too many girls destoryed by sex when in there teen eyars, and they easier to get in the sack. Do you relaly think its better to let them have sex and ruin there lives, grow up feelign cheap with low self esteem, and fal into depresion as is the case 90% of the time, than to teach them to delay gratificaiton for greater fullfillment?}-Zarove

i mean how can you have a true complete relationship without any intimacy?

{Intimacy isnt sex. The two words arent complete. And agi, are teenagers relaly mature enough to have a complete romantic relationship? You may argue yes, but the reality has demonstrated itme and again that teenagers make bad choices base don inexpwirence. Sex isnt somehtign there ready for, and only a fool woidl advocate allowign them tis to " Buold there relationships". Usually it destorys there realtionships and leaves them broken and misurable,, feeligns htey carry over to adulthood. }-Zarove

so all that couples can do is just hug and kiss?

{And whats worng with delayign gratificaiton until one is in a stable marriage? study after study show that those who waited for marriage on average have more satisfyign sex lives, are geenrlaly hapier, less depressed,a nd have higher self esteem and higher value and respect for others. Why throw all that way for "Intimacy" as you call it, whihc is relaly sex befroe there ready? Have you even heard o the term "Delay of Gratification"?}-Zarove

and if they want to get closer to each other they have to get married?

{Sex often doesnt make them closer. it often destorys the relaitonship outright, and causes friction. especially sicne ther eis a chemical bond hat takes place. They dotn live togather but want ot be nearer each other. The boy often jujst used sex for his own purposes and discards the woman who now feels abandoned anfd alone. Even if they think ther ein love ( and often theyt hink this and are mistaken) sex often shifts there emotiisn so much they endup breakign up. It doesnt make you closer, you make yourself closer by emotional skills and communicaiton, nit hy sex. sex doesnt finalise a relaitonship, it merely is a fncton that, optimally, woidl be delayed tll aintimacy is alrrayd established and there already close.}-Zarove

sorry but i think this is sick

{You think delayed graitfication is sick? IUts a basic lesson all successful adlts must learn. You think its sick to protect teens form the damage caused by early sex that can spill over to lifelong emotional struggles? Why is it sick? Becase you have an unrelaistic veiw of the world in swhich sex makes a couple closer and no bad ever happens? You are beign unrelaistic and consgnign many suls to a misurable liver and call us sick?}-Zarove

so to continue,if you want a real intimate relationship,you have to get married,and when you're married when you're having sex 'you must leave the possibility open to have a child'

{ Not beign Cahtolic, the last part I am neutral on. However, you are confusing sex with intimacy. Often peopel have sex and arent intimate, emotionally or mntally. Sex doesnt create relational intimacy and dosnt nessisarily make a couple draw closer. One can have intimate friends, and not have sex. Or are you not mature and reasonable enough to see this?}-Zarove

i mean what is wrong with sex when you love each other???,

{If you love each other, why not get married? If too young, why not wait? again, the term "Delay of gratification" coems into play. By delayign sex you create a greater sex life, by dign it instantly you create a cycle of compulsive behaviours and cheapen sex and ruin your chances for a completle fulfilling sex life.}-Zarove

why should you immediately want to have a child?

{Not all couples do, thats a wholly different topic than what Im addressing though, and shoudl b properly induced to Birth Controle thrreads, so Im skipping it here.}-Zarove

those are 2 separate things,why are you like this???

{Its politilaly correc tto say sex and repordiction are seperate. This jusifies both casual sex and Homosexuality. Sex is for pelasure and "Creeatign intimacy within a relaitonshiP". However, as poitned out, sex often happens without muhc real intimacy, and , as noted alreayd, Biology tells us sex is designed for reporduction first-and- foremost. Its not the way we are beign, tis the way our bodies are designed and our recognition of the fact. Your refusal to acknowledge the facts of Biology do not mak hem go away.}-Zarove

is this love for your fellow man to command and decide someone's fate by judging what is sinfull and what not

{We do not judgr what is and is not sinful, God does. God has alreayd told us what is and isn sinful. If I had my way, some sins wodl nto be sins. However, I didnt design the world.

Sin is sin precicely because it causes damage to ourselves and society. We have seen the damage caused by open sex lives as you advocate. Teen pregnancies, marriages and divorces, promiscuity, and depression, ahave all been the ruits of "Lets have sex withou beign lmarried becase we're in love". Love fades and lust replaces it and its leapign form partner to partner. That has become our society. The consequences are depresison, aggressio, hostility, anger, resentment, and out-of-wedlock children, even if protecton was used, that grow up feelign unwanted and out of place, illegitimate if you will. It creates pain and suffering, and yet you want ot claim we cause pain and sufwrign by pointing this out.

Relaly, you woidl condemn society for your own petty lusts, and condemn us all to a world with no hope where the best we have is second best.}-Zarove

you're saying that artificial contraceptives are wrong,and nfp is right?

{Again, thats a seperate issue form sex in general, and I shall allow others to address it, or address it in another thread.}-Zarove

why? because it isn't 'artificial'?

{See above...}-Zarove

it's the same thing!

{No, itsnot,. One uses an artificial mean to simulate sterility, whle the other uses natural body rhythmes... but I shant dally on details.}-Zarove

it's avoiding to have a child

{But its avoiding using the Bodies own nature, and not usign an artificial mean to generate sterility. Btu I digress since I shant go into too much detail...}-Zarove

does it really matter if you wear a condom or you plan when to have sex and not to get pregnant?

{Yes.}-Zarove

i don't think so...

{what you think ha been shown to be irrelevsant, sicne you do ut any thought into anyhtign at all. All you relaly do is decide what is an is right based upon your own desires, then launc into a tirade tryig to justify them. You came to the conclusion that sex outside of amrriage and with underage persons is OK, and hten try to argue for it without even so much as looking a the arugments againt and weighting them. Even now I can see I will likely be talkign to a brick wall, you wont listen to anyone who posts here. You have decreed what i and isnt truth and dont need ot listen. what you say doesnt even have to mesh withrelaity. Ignore he onseqences and keep pontificating.}-Zarove

i think your church should stop giving sex a 'bad' image and maybe realize that the meaning of sex is in the first place something between two people that love each other and then later if THEY want to create a new life;sex is not because of reproduction,i mean we aren't animals right?

{Actually, we are Animals. Boht sicnece and the Bibel say so. Biology classes Humasn as Homo Sapians. Primates, Of the Mammalains. Vertibrata. Animalia. The Book fo ecclesiasties says this in Chapter 3.

18. I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Likewise, se xisnt firts and foremost abotu love. If it wehrre, peoell woidlnt feel compelled to have sex unless they where in love. Rather, many men, and even women, seek sex for physical pelasure as they have become addicted. Sex clealry isnt solely base don love.

Biology tells us we are programmes to reprodice, and the Bibel confirms this. Sex is primarily designed for reproduction, andour sexual ethic merley acts to ensure stability in the rearign of children, and assures us a companion wwith which toi compete our life, its secondary goal. However, it is best to regulate our impulses, as every culture has dscovered over the centuires.

Humanity has existed for 2 million years now, and hte vast overwhelming majority of societies have always eschewed sex outside of marriage. it is only cultures ont he delcine that allow it, an htey usually flal to ruin.

2 million years of Human expeirnce, the Biological sicneces, and relevation form God, all confirm this basic fact that you wish to disregard.}-Zarove



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 12, 2004.



Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

you people make me sick

that's all i can say...

-- robert (tulenedoispasconnaitre@hotmail.com), December 12, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Then why did you even bother posting here? Do you think you can dissuade someone from the truth, or were you really looking for an answer? We gave you answers to your questions, but you don't seem open to understanding or even listening. You obviously wasted your time here.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 12, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Robert says people make him sick. To which one must say; Yes. you're sick. ''i'm not promoting one night stands, slutty behaviour, prostitution or i don't know what else...''

In fact, you are promoting all of that, and you're repudiating every marriage in the world. Why doesn't that make US sick?

Tell you why, Robert: You can be helped. Your sickness is not unto death. Yet.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 12, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

So you have no real answer tot he glarign problems with ipen sexuality, and refuse to even acknowledge the statements we make as to why we place limits, and simle say we mak you sick. Yes, when you run out of logic and see yourself as outgunned, you mske emotional disparagies. Won work here laddie.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 12, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Robert is right...

Sex should be in the first place something about love and pleasure and NOT reproduction,yes we aren't animals and I don't want sex to be just a cheap trick of nature to keep our stupid race alive,I've found a deeper meaning of it...

And yes there is no difference between NFP and non-hormonal contraceptives;the purpose of both is avoiding to get pregnant in that certain time

All those bad things about pre-marital sex that Zarove mentioned are true in some cases,but this doesn't make a rule

After all love is love and marriage is marriage,many people marry because of different reasons than love($$$caaaaassshhhh$$$) and i really despise this

Marriage is just a concept invented by people to affirme their love to one another and that should bound them forever together,many people nowadays feel that they don't have to marry in front of the church or the state for something like that,after all we don't know what the future brings,people can change you know...,and most marriages end up to a divorce anyway;i think we should come back to reality instead of chasing dreams that probably would just always remain only dreams in this world...

-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 13, 2004.



Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

but marriage really sucks

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand if you christians are so gooood,why then do we still live in this awful world,in this awful system?

i mean you vote for bush i think that tells enough of you

you all only christian cos u are scared to burn in hell

you 'love' god,but you let your fellow men die and you don't give a **** about all the **** in this ******* world

many of us punks don't believe in god or heaven or hell,but we still have some ****** empathy to do something for the people that can't do it for themselves,at least we tried and we still try to change this ****** world because we know that we have no ****** future like this at least we ****** try to make people aware about all the ******* **** going on in this ****** country and you see us as the biggest scum of this entire ****** planet while all we want is our ****** freedom and justice for everyone.and you,you believe in god,you say you care but you vote for george bush,instead of fighting against his kind

****** before marriage will make you burn in hell

but just watching how this ****** planet goes to ****** hell and letting all this **** just happen and pretend everything"z ok won't?

and then you're telling that my kind of people are the ignorant one?

-- one of those that you hate to love (punklives4ever@hotmail.com), December 13, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Both of you are silly as well as immoral.

You weren't born in a litter of dogs, or spawned by a toad. Your own parents may have been unworthy of the title, but they were married. If not they were simply sinners. God is offended by the lifestyles you two have tried to defend. He gave you the soul hat distinguishes a man and woman from dogs.

I love dogs; but would hardly adopt the dog's sexual instincts. Of course they can't marry. Or divorce, either-- and that's fine with God. He made them animals of a lower order. He made me and you to love and serve Him in this life and to be with Him in the life to come. Its not debatable. You can choose not to believe it, but not to contradict God. Those who won't believe are justly damned.

You'll reap only what pleasure the sexual craze will afford you in this life; a passing happiness. They who have obeyed God receive for reward an eternal life of happiness and love.

Not what you called ecstasy, even love, here in the world. Dogs and cats are given that much. They only obey their imprinted circuits, animal instinct. Were both your parents just animals? No.

You must give God His proper place: First. No ''love'' is possible for your immortal soul unless you love God first; more than sex and more than sin. You love sin now. Sin only takes you to damnation and eternal sorrows. You should hear and obey Him while you still have life. Life passes rapidly, your sex alone won't last. Please try to understand.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 13, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Robert is right...

{hARDLY...}-ZAROVE

Sex should be in the first place something about love and pleasure and NOT reproduction,

{Bioligical sicnece proves this false. Thouhg a bind between a man an woman forms in the Human soeicies as a secondary trait, se xis, primarily, in all animals, even Humans, reproductuve...}-Zarove

yes we aren't animals and I don't want sex to be just a cheap trick of nature to keep our stupid race alive,

{Youhtink continuingthe Human race is a cheap trick? Heck, its a sacred duty... in and of itsself repriduction is a woderous, beutiful thing... dont disparage it. And liekwise, I did sy Sex had a seocjndary function... I merley said its primary function is reproductiin, by cliaming otherwise you not only ignore the facts but vow peopel of the opposite sex as objects to give you pelasure...}- Zarove

I've found a deeper meaning of it...

{No you havent. The deepest meanign is the fmaily, a man and woman, togathe rin life, and hoefully raisign children, is the deapest mening...}-Zarove

And yes there is no difference between NFP and non-hormonal contraceptives;

{Yes, there is, for ine one is perfectly natral whereas the other isnt...}-Zarove

the purpose of both is avoiding to get pregnant in that certain time

{Which doesnt avoid the relaity than in one case an articifial mean makes sex nothign but designed for pleasure and, even though you htink this is OJ, it chepaens sex to nohtign but tings we do fofor fun...By extension it cheapens all huamn life...}-Zarove

All those bad things about pre-marital sex that Zarove mentioned are true in some cases,but this doesn't make a rule

{Check the real world soemtimes, they are the rule... this si the AVERAGE.}-Zarove

After all love is love and marriage is marriage,many people marry because of different reasons than love($$$caaaaassshhhh$$$) and i really despise this

{Regardless, sex and love dont alwas go togather. Many peopel , especially these dyas, have sex for reaosns othe rthna lvoe too. you wan tto decontruct marriage as bad and not always base don love while elevatign esex to an expresion of live, which ignroes the facthat the majority of nonmarried persons between the age of 18 and 30 that are unmarried have sex for pelasure, not love... We can just ognroe these facts though, as they ar einconveneint...}-Zarove

Marriage is just a concept invented by people to affirme their love to one another and that should bound them forever together,many people nowadays feel that they don't have to marry in front of the church or the state for something like that,after all we don't know what the future brings,people can change you know...,

{Marrige wasnt just invented by some peopel to express lvoe, its the ondelst existign Human instetutioin designe do brign social order.Marriages, esecially arrnaged ones int he past, where never always base don love, as yu noted, nor was sex always an xpression of lv een among those glorous nmarried peopel. And those people who seek not to marry usually have less stable lives. Aain, study after study affirms marriage as more than a construct, btu as a whole instetution which safeuards all fo society, whih nwo you wan tot ignore...}-Zarove

and most marriages end up to a divorce anyway;

{Only 48% do, not most, but rouhly half. this is a problem only because of th social deteroration, not because marriage is a bad idea.}-Zarove

i think we should come back to reality instead of chasing dreams that probably would just always remain only dreams in this world...

{Its hardly a dream world we live in. Your "Real wrld" is filled with misurt and suffering. Most causal sex leads to pain and depression, its a proven fact. Most marriages make peopel more stable. Also a fact. Instead of telling us to getback to reality, why dot you?}- Zarove

-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 13, 2004.

but marriage really sucks

{Not accordign to most married couples... they find it relaxing, and again, mist married peooel ar emore stable...}-Zarove

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand if you christians are so gooood,why then do we still live in this awful world,in this awful system?

{ Because peopel liek you wont see the light and help imprive it?}- Zarove

i mean you vote for bush i think that tells enough of you

{Not all Christains vited Bush... thats sterytyping. Mist here did, but that was because Kerry was pro abortion...And whats so bad about Bush?Not that hes perfect, but hes not as bad as his detractors say either...}-Zarove

you all only christian cos u are scared to burn in hell

{Not why Im Christain, sorry...}-Zarove

you 'love' god,but you let your fellow men die and you don't give a **** about all the **** in this ******* world

{I care deeply for ithers, and try to help all I can. Indeed, Christauisn are ocmmanded ot help. More charities, hositalsn and shelters are bulild by Churces than any other gorup. Please tell me what you have doen to help?}-Zarove

many of us punks don't believe in god or heaven or hell,but we still have some ****** empathy to do something for the people that can't do it for themselves,

{Which you prove by comign here and cursign us out? You asusme we lack empathy and Love God for fea rof Hell and allow othes to die and dotn care baout there fates, can you prive this? Can you prove your better than me? What have I done and what have you done?}-Zarove

at least we tried and we still try to change this ****** world

{I try in my ways to change the world too, and again, Charities, hospitals, work reeducatiin centres, the salvation army, ect...all Chruc sponcered projects......... Christausn do try to change the world, syaign otherwise ignroes reality.}-Zarove

because we know that we have no ****** future like this at least we ****** try to make people aware about all the ******* **** going on in this ****** country and you see us as the biggest scum of this entire ****** planet while all we want is our ****** freedom and justice for everyone.

{Uhm...this sin true. We objec tot premarital sex and wrecjless behaviour precicely because it ruins lives. But that is hardly a disparagence aaisnt you personally. what have we said to dosparage you or nayone? Unliek your claims, Christaisn fught for justuce and freedom, btu also for morality, to improive peopels lvies, and do care. You, not we, are the one hurlign all the accusatioins.}-Zarove

and you,you believe in god,you say you care but you vote for george bush,instead of fighting against his kind

{We haven discussed who we vted for. Indeed, I didnt vote this year. I coiudnt find a cnadicate I coudl support , so I abstaiend. Likewise, viting Ketrry woidln prove weloved people, sicne he supports murder of the unborn, and supported the war in iraq, and supported the patrot act...exaclty how woudl that have been better than Bush? Also, what has this to do withhte opic?}-Zarove

****** before marriage will make you burn in hell

{It leads to greater conequecnes in life as well, trust me, Ived seen it...}-Zarove

but just watching how this ****** planet goes to ****** hell and letting all this **** just happen and pretend everything"z ok won't?

{We hardly pretend everythign is OK, and again I ask, what good ahve you done in this world? Are you so sure I do no good?}-Zarove

and then you're telling that my kind of people are the ignorant one?

{You seem ingorant and angry. I emean, you asusme we dont care about other people based upon predjudice tou cannot support...}-Zarove

-- one of those that you hate to love (punklives4ever@hotmail.com), December 13, 2004.



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

what's so bad about bush???? go watch fahrenheit 9/11 and see what 'so bad about bush' you ****** *****

{You want me to base an informed opinion based on propoganda? Really now, Farihheit 9/11 is nothign but Shock media designed to promot a spacific worldveiw, and is not considered a fair and balnced presentaiton. Moore often distors the facts and in some cases invents them for the sake of advancing his own cause. I woudl harldy consider him an unbaised source, and will not take hiw word on things. The only reaosn most do is becuse it supports there "Bush Sucks" attitude.}-Zarove

because it would take at least a whole day to type and prove what there is so bad about bush

{If your soruces are dubious, such as Moore's "Documentary", Farigheit 9-11, then dont bother. I want facts, noit propoganda.}- Zarove

no kerry isn't better,actually he's just 'playing' a ****** opponent all the time while his political program is pretty much the same as bush's(the ****** war in iraq,the war on the ****** 'terrorism'...)

{If this si the case, and if Bush opposes even one evil Kerry sypports, then Bush becomes the logical candidate.

Allow me to present a logic case.

Suppose Bush supports 100 evil things, and 1 good thing.

Suppose now Kerry supports 101 bad things, including the evil that Bush counters. If they are the same save that oen good, then Bush, because of the oen good, and for its sake, shoudl be elected, for either way we woudl have the rest.

Bush condemns abortion Kerry supports bortion, thus, Bush shoudl win, since the rest is the same, and makes no difference.}-Zarove

i can't type here everything so i told you already,go watch fahrenheit 9/11,and think a little about it,there it's all said;also take your ****** time to visit this site:www.votenader.com

{Why woiudl I vote for a third party wiht no chanc of winning? Likewise, isnt Nater a Socialist? All this said, Fahrenhet 9-11 is nothign but cheap propoganda that often gets its facts worng and isnt considered reliable. none of my old Collouges have a high opinion of Moore, and I was once a Jounalist. Beleiv it or not.

Thinkign abothte flm is nohtign btu thinking about the same tired lies peopel tend to tell to get oter peopel removed frmpositions. Its rmenecnt of Hitlers Propoganda, which is Ironic since Bush i so often compared to Hitler, especally by the likes of Moore. Yet hee Moore uses the same tactics as the Nazis and distorts evidence.

I do not pretend Bush is prfect, but F 9-11 is a shameful disgrace on the ducumentary collection of humanity, and is utterly worthlss as a sourc to form an edcated opinion.}-Zarove

what i have done for this ****** world???

{Yes, othr than waste time spilling out ****** all the time...}-Zarove

pretty much the same thing as michael moore but in a different way,i try to make people realise the failures of our society,

{Moore simeply trues to fist his own worldview on others by condmening others he doesnt liek, and often distorts, mechanises, and lies in order to achive his ends. That is not heroism, and that does not exaclty make me feel ashamed of my meager accomplishmens inthe face of suhc a giant. My reports on wich roads whre getting new pavement where of more vlaue tot he global community than his documentary, whuch is not bu a pack of lies and distortions, again, propogandising isnt helpful.}-Zarove

i try to make people realise that there isn't any democracy or justice in our country and that they're ****** with our mind all the time with the so-called 'terrorist';

{In other words, you endlesscly complain because peopel try to form real solutions to our probelms tht ou don like while you vent your disinfranshised anger and angst at peopel on internet mesage baords for no apparent reason while beleivign anyhtign that fosters your hatred and coaters to your disillusioned worldveiw.}-Zarove

how religion can be used to manipulate,

{You advocate Michael Moore and his film F-911 and then complain abut religion beign used to manipulate? The whole poin of the film wa ot manipulate th audience into accpting Moores worldview by geenratign a picture of outrage and disgust that woudl carry over, often create don an illusuon, since all his interviees where biased.}-Zarove

how there is no real justice and how people are being treated like **** in prisons,

{work toward reform. it works bette than using fowl language and compalinign endlessly.}-Zarove

how wrong and evil the ****** death penalty is,

{Why? For the sake of argumen why is it worng to sentence peopel to dath for the greater good o the community and forpenance as to what thy have done?}-Zarove

how big companies are exploiting people in africa,asia and south america,

{This is known and we are tryign to stop it by more effecvtive means that complaints and explatives...}-Zarove

how we all live a ****** lie that we are free and our life has a meaning while we are still stuck in a ****** system that gave our lives virtual boarders and that we can have a much more happier life and a much better world than we have today

{boundaries are importan to foster happness. Psycologiclaly, th rmoval of cboundaries leads to directionlessness,overcontole, and a lack of vlaue in onseels and others. Hmental health demads boundaries, and , oddly, this creates freedom, rathr than resicts it. Its the great paradox.}-Zarove

-- one of those that you hate to love (punklives4ever@hotmail.com), December 13, 2004.

i wanna thank the hippies for the sexual revolution

{Why? For contirnutign tot he end of mroals and the increase ind epresion, suicide, unwed births, and social anxiety, and the devlauation fowomen?}-Zarove

i wanna thank the punks for their wisdom and knowledge about society and life and for bringing us the ideas of anarchy

{wisdom? If the above is any indicaiton, all they seem to brign here is anger, angst, and propoganda, with no direction at all.}-Zarove

and i wanna thank every single individual that wants to change this world,

{Your welcome. ( I know you think I work fothe establishment and only the "rebels" are fighting, btu rellay...)}-Zarove

that rebels against the conventional,

{Rebellion is not always a good thing...}-Zarove

that questions dogmas,

{Queationing dogmas is good, but challeign them in anger and shakign a fist sint...}-Zarove

that thinks with his own head instead of going with the mass,

{That woidl be me. Nothign the above posters said was htoug of on ther own, btu adipted, they just go with there own masses. I, on the other hand, have thguht for myself and his si were I am. You cannot think that thinkign for oenself leads automaticlaly to Robert and Punks postion, indeed, it lead me here.}-Zarove

that amways keeps his identity and would die for it;

{This is the sotry of my life..and that of the Jewish people fo that matter...but you will ignroe this.}-Zarove

you make life worth living,thank you

{Robert and Punk devlaue life and mak it meaningkess an a lie, only God makes it worth living.}-Zarove

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.sdqa), December 13, 2004.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

sorry if my english isn't very good,i'm from china punks alive is right

{iM BEGINNIGN TO THINK YOUR ALL THE SAME PERSON, WHO ARE POSTING UNDER MULTIPLE NAMES IN ORDER TO ILLICIT SUPPORT FOR A TENUOUS ARGUMENT...}-Zarove

9/11 was did by the american governement to scare people so that they support their war on terror,while there is no real threat of terrorist and the governement focusses on stupid things like we can see in the film 9/11 about the mothers milk and the old guy in the gym are a threat of terorism and having 4 lighters and matches on the airplane isn't

{Again, F 9-11 is propogNDA, NOT VALID MATTER FOR DISCUSISON.}-Zarove

with 9/11 they had a reason to invade afghanistan and later iraq,they want to have the oil to control the economy of the world,they needed also a reason to make that partiot act so that they can control everyone in the usa so noone can stop them or their plans

{And The Aleins where in on it, rught? relaly this absurd conspiracy theory is a joke...}-Zarove

there was never a treat of sadam husain and the war in iraq is useless and so was the war in afghanistan

{Afganasatan attakced us. Iraq tyou have a case for. Hwoever this thread isnt about politics but sex...}-Zarove

bin laden is a produkt of hollywood

{No, he has a global terrorist network called Al Queda... even the Arabs rcongise this fact...

andf htis has ot do with sex and sex lives h and sexual mrolaity how?}-Zarove

there is no terrorism

{Uhm...even barrifg the Al Queda network, what of the IRA? What abouththe Peopels chance? WHat about those weord peopel in south america who shoot at the govenrment officals? heck, even you admit terrorism when you say 9-11 was caused byt he Govnemrnt of america...since it induced terror and tat was its aim...}-Zarove

this was a test how people react on fear and how they can use religion to manipulate(abortion,gay marrige)

{Religion? In case you hadnt noticed America is tryignt o eliminate rleigion form the public square, espeiclaly Chrisainity. no one used rleigion to manipulate, least fo all 9-11 which was blamed on Islamic terrorists...and hwo dos an attakc on the two towers effect anyones attetude toward either Abortio or Gay Marriage?}-Zarove

if hitler was stopped on time there would be no ww2 but nobody cared and millions of jews and other people died

{Hitler dint bomb his own people though... to geenrate an artificial thereat. in fact, he used a rela injustice to promote hismelf. The treaty of Vecilles was unfair ont he Germans anddid cripple thre economy. Hitler merely used the senements of the peopel on his side, not terrorists acts. is rise was political, not military.}-Zarove

now the same thing is going on with bush

{I dotn see Bush issueing "25 points of demand'. I don se Bush isuign propoganda tapes ( Ala Michael Moore). I dotn see Bush arrestign peopel who make fun of him ( Again, Moore coems ot mind.) I sditn see Bushs face everywhre or hi personal lparty logo on every sign and fence. Bush is no where near liek Hitler, and only a fool woiudl say he was. even his oponants relaise this and the name of Hiler is used here for shock vlaue.}-Zarove

9/11 isn't propaganda,but it's something to make you people that don't understand how american politics,economy and society works to make you wake up and see the truth

{I know tis propoganda because I knwo the full facts and knwo what Moore omits and changes.}-Zarove

you are all slaves of your governement

{I don even like the Govnermnt, Im a Brit...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.



Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

you are very dumb people and don't think that you are smart because you speek german,

{I beelive he spanish speaker started that trend...}-Zarove

we are not all the same person but robert brought us all to this site (me,sdqa,raymond and the punker) to discuss this and show us how dumb people can be and think they know the best while they need help

{The torible is, all you have become is a gang of bullies trying to impose by intimidation your views.

You have yet to do any of the following.

1: Actually give a reasoned, well thouhgt out argument in support of your world veiw.

2: Support your actual claims made.

3: Accept and losten to the oponants, who are not acting irraitonal but are presenting alternate takes that shoudl be listened.

4: Provided anyhting that woidl be construed as an argument in faour of your case.

5: Actually shows ral world examples of how tour ways are better or more advanced.

you have instead ...

1: Denied the studies, expeirnece, and observaitosn amde of the realwrld hat ontraict your teahcings.

2: Disaccepted others eiws becaue they conflucted with your own, while ignorign the root origin of the same.

3: Attempted to force your own eiws with no evidence, no facts, and no real applicaton tot he real wrld, by claimgn they apy tot he real world, wihtout showing how they applid otthe real world and in contradiction to acepted evidence.

4: Broguth in others t join in he attakc whi likewise fail to present reaosned argumes and merley serve as an artificial support mechinism to generate a sence of domenence.

5: Disregarded all civil conduct in favour of brash attakc and emotional appeals and bully tactics...

6: Gotten ff topic with F 9-11 and polotics nad how bad all christaisn are when the topic is sex and secual ethics...

Really, why shoudl I care if one or 1000 attack, truth changes not with opinion, or with beleifs, and many can beneive a lie.

So why not try to listen tot he arugments and make new ones, rathe than simpely decidign what is and isnt tuth and forcign this.}- Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

robert,punker,akramat and me gave all arguments but you don't want to listen because you think your religion and your ****** church are perfect and studies don't tell that;many sexuologs and psychiartrists agree that sex before marriage is a very normal thing to have

-- lin chen soon (murderthegovernement@yahoo.com), December 13, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

You're all in training for Hell. Not Cool, not Hip, not much in the brains department. Wayward kids impressing only one another. There's not much more pathetic than an adolescent troll. G'Bye.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 13, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

robert,punker,akramat and me gave all arguments but you don't want to listen because you think your religion and your ****** church are perfect

{i DONT ATTEND THE cATHOLIC cHURCH... Noentheless, I do listen. The problem is, you ahvet said anyhtign worth listenign too. you ignore everythign we say, and simpley declare thigns are true with no evidence. You havent put ofurth any argukents, all you have doen is declared that thigns are true, with not a sign of any auhoritative evidence on display. Your word isnt good enough.}-Zarove

and studies don't tell that;many sexuologs and psychiartrists agree that sex before marriage is a very normal thing to have

{Im in a PH.D Programme to get a degree in Psycology... the stidies reveal that monogomy is mor stable and the ideal. Political correctness forbids the use f the temr marriage, btut promiscuity, or ebven just casual sex amng adultsm is seen as problematic both Physically and mentlaly. likewise, sex aming adolecence is seen as greatly damaging tot here mental developemnt and lwors, rather than higtens, there ablity ot love, truely love.

The textbooks all agre with me, Monogomous, stable sexual relations ar the best. Marriage is the best. Just go ahead to your nearest colalge library and look a thre standad texts. They wil agree wiht me fully.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Zarove....why do you even bother addressing this kid? I find the best way to handle irrational children is to simply ignore them. All rational open minded people will see the truth in life eventually. Let them scream and rant about how stupid we are...so what?

-- Mike (none@nomail.nope), December 15, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

mike, this is a discusion board.Liekwise we don knwo what effect we may have.Besdes, it beats letting them think they run thigns around here...I know ther irraitonal, but we can at elats hold the line.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 15, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

OK...not gonna argue with you ;-)

-- Mike (mail@mail.com), December 17, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

btw i know many non-fundamental,non-conservative christians who don't keep all these commands because that isn't the essence of the christian beliefs,robert has made some great arguments why

{hE MADE NO ARGUMETS. HE MADE PRONOUCNMENTS WE WHERE EXPECTED TO ACCEPT, SAID WE MADE HIM SICK, AND HEN STARTED SAYING "pITAIN' OVER AND OVER. hARLDY ANARGUMENT. jUST AGREEIGN WITH HIS POSIITON IS NOT THE SAME AS SEEIGN MERIT IN HIS CLAIMS.}-Zarove

zarove you really are an *******

{ Yet Im accepted on this board without cnsure without beign Cahtolic... you just say this because you dont liek peopel to contradict you, and present reasoned argemtns aaisnt. This is an ad Hom attack. You cannot discrit what i say, so you attack me.}-Zarove

if you want to live that way,go ahead,enjoy your life,but stop telling us your ****

{Isnt it robert who came here to tell us to abandon our positin and embrace the notion that we can have sex if unmarried, and if underaged, and its all good?

why is it that he isnt seen as forcign his worldveiww ehn eh declares that we make him sick, btu I am forcing mine by disagreeing?

Need I remidn you that both you and robert ar eon a Cahtolci message baord, a haven for Cahtolci beelifs.

We didnt exaclty pull a gun to your head and force you to post here.

Nether ar emy posts derogitory attacks aaisnt those who disagree with me, as you have made asint me pesnally and as robery has agasint all who uphold a Chrisain morality.

Im not forcign anything, you and rovbert are. Then you reverse it and claim you an dhe where reasonable and I attakced you.

This is the behaviour of a bully, and an immature mind.

Please reassess your claims, and try to acutlaly use rasonable argumets, not iunsults, to make a case in future.}-Zarove

we found a deeper meaning to sex than just being tricked by nature to reproduct like akramat said

{No you didnt. You found that sex is recrational, thus makign all members fo the oppsiite sex, and in some cses the same sex, open game for your own gratification. You claim tis baout love, btu 30 years of "Progressive' sexuality reveal the level of poaiun casual sex has geenrated, and have shown nothing but disillusionment and discontendt as a rsault, especially for women who tend to feel used.

By ignorign these facts, yo find nothign but your own conclusion you had arrived at alreayd, and refuse to see thepain geberated by wanton living.

Deeper meanign isnt foudn in hedonism and self gratificaiton, btu in love, and genuine love woidl demand genuine commitment. Marrieage isnt too much ot ask for in sex, since it protectsd al inovled and seals them in a commitment.

You, on the other hand, reduce sex to a mere game, and that to you is deeper meaning.}-Zarove

it's like you go play football and the actual result of it is that you stay in form or loose weight,but the reason why you do it because you just love playing football or you're just bored and have nothing better to do

{Sex sint a game, and ususally ends up in isury if condiucted along the lines yo advocate. You go out and have sex with your girlfriend/boyfirned, break up, feel pained becase f the chemical oind, find anothe, do the same, and repeat it. By thre time you find soemoen tou actually ar ein lvoe with, you cannot form a permement boind with sex since you had to manh other partners,a nd its hard ott hink of yor current partner as a lovijgn spiuce, inseta there a vehicle for yourpleasure and a friend. you treated thers the same way, and are far more likely to divorce.

Sex is also addictive and leaves many feelign degrades.

Yeah lets treat it liek a game we love o play, it gives it such deeper meaning...}-Zarove

that's the same thing with sex,reproduction may be the actual result but the reasons why most people do it are totally different

{The reason they wan tto do it is because they ar ebiologiclaly programmed to do it. They WANT sex because it IS procrerative. This is liek saying they want food not just to sirvve. it is true that poepl eat for pelasure, btu our bodies crave food because without food we die.

Sex is a biological feature, fiurts and foremost, and we have a sexal urge because we are animals that need to reprodice, lie all others. Its plasurable to ensure its done.

In Homo Sapains, its also evovled to the poitn where it serves social cfnciton of keepign a fmaily unit togather. Bu corrupting this urge and having multle partners illicigtely, we damage ouselves and sociuety a a whole.

Why is this "Deeper meaning"?>}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 19, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

Where your analogy breaks down is that football was not designed by God and given to us with specific binding guidelines for its use. Therefore we are free to approach football any way we wish. Sexual relationships on the other hand come with specific instructions from God Himself, which we can ignore but which we cannot escape. We either live by His word or we reject His word, and in either case we experience the consequences.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 19, 2004.

Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

i used the whole football story as an allegory(if you even know what that means)

{Noentheles it reduces sex to a game...}-Zarove

i didn't say that the deeper meaning for sex is recreation or fun,it can be,but in my case it's also love

{If you lvoed who yu had se wih, you woidl rstirct yourself to that persn, and wait till the final commtiment, to show this love.Otherws yo excersise lust, which overpowers the loe, no matter how genuine, sicne the lust must be met by the person...}-Zarove

i'm just trying to say that most people don't have sex because they want to have children but out of different reasons while children are the result

{This doesnt effect what Sex is designed for, nor is it why we have th drive ot have sex. Simpley because it can be used for differign putposeds doesntmean it is naturla inent.

Likewise, you ignore the secondary developeal functionof bindign coules, which is damaged by extra and premarital sex. }-Zarove

actual funny how we come into being by someone's ******* it's strange if my parents didn't have sex,i wouldn't be here does this makes now my whole existance a quincidence?

{Not if you where prepalanerd. God told Jerimaiah that he was a Prhet even before his Birth, why shoudl you be less so planned?}-Zarove

or is someone's real existance not physical but trough everything that we live for and that we choose,how we make ourselves and our lives in the way we want it to be?

{Philosoph aside and being the pragmatist I am, our eistance is determiend by rather or not we excersise a physical or energetic preasence. I exist becaue Im siting here. That dosnt tell why I exist or how, but My existance is both hysical and spiritual, and actual in both cases scne I am a real being.}-Zarove

am i now sdqa,or am i becoming sdqa,my whole life long?

{You are SDQA, as its a name we use to call you that you alreayd selected to use...I am Zarove, not becomign Zarove. I can become many thigns and many thigns to deelop in life, but life itsself alreayd manifests in me.}-Zarove

aren't all people the same when they're born?

{I was born dyslexic and with black hair... most popel wherent. The short anseer is no one is exaclt rthe same at brith as anyone else.}- Zarove

a clean sheet of paper on which we must draw the things we want where do we come from?

{No. we ar eprepgorammged gnerticlaly and predispodsed to some things. Some are geenrally common in Humanity, and Soem Universal, btu instinct alone is invested alreayd. part fo thepciture is drawn, we can merle choose the patters we add later. But we cna stll add qiet a lot.}-Zarove

and where do we go? does it means if there was a time that we didn't exist that one day that time will come again?

{No matte ris created or desotryed. Lae of Physics. I will always eist, though I may not always be alove. My bdy will always exist, touh it may be dismembered over the milin and recycled into other things. My spirit will always exist.}-Zarove

we see everything here happening around us...but the truth is still unwritten and unheard

{The truth is written and known.

By the way, noen of this addresses sex and illicit sexual acts... nor makes any sort of argumen for or agsisnt... whih is the threads tpic.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 19, 2004.


Response to regards on marriage,sex,relationships...of the catholic chruch

you people make me sick

Robert,

One way to overcome your sickness or apparent revulsion to Truth as the Church teaches is to simply obediently embrace [it] and submit to [it] completely.

You are truly opposing your own and others best interests unless you embrace only that from which flows true personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 19, 2004.


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