Immaculate Conception of JESUS, not Mary

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I believe that the Feast of the "Immaculate Conception," honoring Mary, the Blessed Virgin Mother of Jesus, should be celebrated in March, not December, because CONTRARY TO WHAT SOME RELIGIONS ARE PREACHING TODAY, only JESUS was conceived without the stain of man's (Adam's) Original Sin: "... by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man ..." (Nicene Creed) JESUS, part human, part God, is the only person who was, is, and ever shall be born (and conceived) immaculately, in total purity of GOD's redeeming love for us. Mary, as the mother of Jesus, is a very special and much-needed role model for all human women; however, she is mortal and should not be confused as a deity (especially in the Roman Catholic Church.) Yes, Mary should be respected and admired deeply as the ideal HUMAN mother -- not as a fourth person of God.

Peace,

Mary

-- Mary (peacelovejoy2u@aol.com), December 07, 2004

Answers

Mary,

As I'm sure the forum will quickly let you know, you've completely distorted (lied about) the Catholic beliefs regarding Mary. They do not believe she is deity or equal to God - PERIOD. There are a few, small fringe groups within Catholicism that seem to be heading in a direction that approaches that thinking, but there beliefs will never become official dogma of the Church and are denounced by 99.999% of Catholics.

You've believed a lie and have come here perpetuating it. I suggest you do some research into Catholic theology for yourself rather than listen to anti-Catholics who distort and lie. An excellent online source of information is http://www.newadvent.org/. You could look- up the Immaculate Conception and Mary as topics to see exactly what Catholics believe. Please approach the research with an open mind and read carefully so that you can properly understand the actual Catholic position rather than taking someone else's interpretation. I also think you need to apologize for coming here in that kind of attitude, stating lies and dumping on them in their own forum. If you want to discuss an issue, ask questions, exchange opinions, etc. that's fine. But this is just rude behavior and not Christlike at all. You can even disagree with something respectfully, they will accept that and you'll be able to learn something in the process.

I actually disagree with a number of their dogmas regarding Mary, including the Immaculate Conception, but at least when I discuss such disagreements, I try to do so with an accurate representation of their beliefs (I do my homework) and with respect.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), December 07, 2004.


Oh, and one more important point . . . Jesus was not "part human, part God" as you stated. He was fully human and fully God - two complete natures. The way you stated it is actually a form of heresy that was addressed in the early church.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), December 07, 2004.


Mary, you’ve got a lot to learn about your patron saint, and her Son. Jesus’ conception is celebrated on the feast of the Annunciation (or Incarnation), 25 March, yes exactly 9 months before Christmas. Jesus is not "part human, part God", but FULLY human AND FULLY God. (See the Nicene Creed, "one in being with the Father"). Jesus was conceived without the stain of man’s sin, even though he is fully human and had a human mother, BECAUSE God allowed that mother to be free from original sin. We celebrate on Dec 8 the fact that He did this.

Whoever told you that Catholics believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a “a deity” or “a fourth person of God” is incredibly ignorant or more likely a bigoted deliberate liar. It is very sad to see that such foul calumnies against the Church which WROTE the Nicene Creed are still being circulated by some so-called Christians.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is a very special and much needed role model, not only for women but for ALL Christians. We should all follow her example in unhesitatingly saying “yes” to Christ and serving Him in the Church He founded.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 07, 2004.


See http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 08, 2004.

Cheers David... for defending the faith.

Of the numerous non-christian people who have visited this forum, I can say that David has been the only respectful one, who doesn't use fundementalist bashing or distortion...

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), December 08, 2004.



Andrew, I believe you mean non-Catholic, not non-Christian. Sorry to pick at details, but it could be misinterpreted.

Peace!

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 08, 2004.


December 8, 2004

Good evening,

I apologize to any of God's children whom I may have offended in my 12/07/2004 statement regarding the "Immaculate Conception."

Thank you, David, for your prompt responses to my opinion. Regarding your second response, I agree with you that God, Our Father, blessed His Son, Jesus, "with two complete natures" -- human and divine. JESUS, during his thirty-three year human life on our planet Earth approximately two thousand years ago, lived a fully human life; equally important, JESUS is, was, and always will be the Second Divine Person of GOD (Our Holy Trinity) throughout eternity.

Thanks for allowing me an opportunity to clarify my statements.

Peace,

Mary

-- Mary (peacelovejoy2u@aol.com), December 08, 2004.


December 8, 2004

Steve,

You are correct in your statement that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a very special and much-needed role model "not only for women but for ALL Christians." Thanks for the insight!

Peace,

Mary

-- Mary (peacelovejoy2u@aol.com), December 08, 2004.


Well said, Mary. And I'm glad you agree with the fully human/fully divine natures within Christ doctrine, it's pretty foundational to all our beliefs.

Now, so that we can turn this discussion in the right direction, would you be interested in learning what Catholics actually believe and why? If so, I'm sure that our Catholic brothers and sisters in the Lord would be very willing to discuss any questions you have so that you can fully understand. Check that link I provided and start reading.

David

P.S. Thanks Cameron and Andrew!

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), December 08, 2004.


Non-Catholic Christian David, it was good that you helped Mary to realize how wrong she was. But I need to make you aware of a couple of mistakes in your statement to her.

First, you said that she had "completely distorted (lied about) the Catholic beliefs regarding Mary."

Actually, I doubt that she "distored" or "lied," since "distortion" and "lying" are deliberate falsification, done when one knows that what he/she is saying is wrong. Like many misinformed anti- Catholics, though, Mary actually believed everything that she wrongly stated.

Second, you said that there "are a few, small fringe groups within Catholicism that seem to be heading in a direction that approaches that thinking" that Mary "is deity or equal to God."

Correction: There are no such "groups within Catholicism," because anyone who would be guilty of such a heresy would automatically excommunicate himself. I'll bet that not a single Catholic at this chat board has ever heard another person claiming to be Catholic and even hinting that Mary could be "deity or equal to God."

Just as I gave Mary the benefit of the doubt earlier, I will assume that you made a mistake on this second point, and I won't assume that you "completely distorted (lied about)" it.

-- Typist (asdf@jkl.com), December 09, 2004.



Hi John :-)

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), December 09, 2004.

Amen!

No Catholic approaches Mary as a diety. However, the uniqueness of her place in salvation as the human who bore the Savior is what the catholic church has been aware of since she was walking among us.

When one is able to distance ones self from the errors of adulterous protestant theological discourse and return to the one true church, accepting her authority, in spite of her obvious human sinfulness, then one can begin to examine the roots of what she teaches, and tries to practice, from the true perspective of an obedient child learning from a parent. What that parent teaches is true but what a parent practices certainly gives pause to reflect on occasion. Nevertheless, the parent still, rightfully, exercizes proper authority when it is properly used.

Every protestant bears the burden of their forefather's unrepentant adultery from the Bride of Christ and would do well to abandon that adulterous spouse of protestant theology and return to the true bride. We are all paying for this Great Divorce, for which there is culpability on all sides. But the rightful spouse is the rightful spouse and there remains no excuse for adultery, only repentance and the loving willingness of the Bride to accept that forgiveness and restore the relationship that God desires and designed for his Bride, the Catholic Church.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), December 09, 2004.


What of chruhces that arent Protestant, like the Chruch of Cnrist, which alreayd gave up protestna theology? Yet isnt catholic?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 09, 2004.

zarove,

while there is a huge movement in protestantism to deny that title for their particular denominations, honest professionals in the field of theology recognize that there are two classifications in the Christian religion: Catholic and protestant. while it is all well and good to claim to be niether, all christian sects fit into one of those two nitches because, in theological circles, protestant is defined as a christian who is not catholic.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 10, 2004.


Zarove,

I don't know much about the Churches of Christ except what I get from posters who are members of that church. From what I've gathered, they adhere to Sola Scriptura. Is that correct?

If so, wouldn't that be a part of Protestant Reformed theology that they accept, even if they do not consider themselves "Protestant"? Even if they aren't Protestant, many of their doctrines are the same and this would be where they disagree with Catholic teaching (e.g., teaching on the Eucharist and need for the Sacraments). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Of course, there are doctrines where they vehemently disagree with most Protestants - such as the need for water baptism, "once saved always saved", and the "faith and works."

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 10, 2004.



Peace to you Cameron

Thanks for correcting my mistake - I meant non-catholic christian

Pax Christi

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), December 13, 2004.


(I cut & pasted some answers directly from the Marian Libary Online Site, just because I couldn't put them better. I hope they helped.)

MARY CULTS? Actually back in the 4th Century Arabia, there were a heratic sect of Christians that were known to John Damascene Epiphanius called the Collyridians (or Kollyridians) which loosely translated means 'Cake eater sect.'

Epiphanius wrote: "Although Mary is the most beautiful and holy and worthy of praise, we don't owe her adoration." Then in another passage, "Adoration must cease. For Mary is no goddess nor has she received her body from heaven. (oute gar theos hae Maria oute ap'ouranou exousa to soma)"

This sect, mainly consisting of women or at least led by woman priestesess, propagated what amounts to a Goddess cult regarding Our Lady. They used to present kolluris, which was a pre-Christian special type of offering bread to her in thier rites.

Leontius of Byzance called them "Philomarianites", meaning Mary- lovers.

They were considered Heratic Cults by the Roman Catholic Church though. And currently (to my uninformed) knowlege they don't exist any longer.

DO CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY? Though English words like 'worship' and 'adoration' are occasionally used to signify only veneration, honor or affection, they are generally understood to refer to that highest type of worship reserved for God alone. In this sense, Catholics do NOT adore or worship Mary, or any other created person or thing.

The Ecumenical Council held at Nicaea in 787 considered the issue of veneration which is not directed to the Divine persons in relation to sacred images. At this Council, the Church taught that the special type of worship called adoration may only be offered to God: Latria from the Greek term for enslavement. However, the Church also acknowledged that certain persons, though only creatures of God, are entitled to honor or veneration of a qualitatively lesser degree than the absolute allegiance owed to God. The Conciliar Fathers termed this lesser devotion: Dulia. Such veneration was proper for Mary and the Saints. In view of Mary's important role in salvation history as Mother of Jesus, the Church recognized that Mary warranted a special degree of honor among the Saints. For this class of devotion, St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274) suggested the term hyperdulia.

No, Catholics do not worship Mary, if by worshiping is meant adoring. She is not God for us, has never been and will never be. Addressing prayer to Mary is like asking a dear and close friend for help. Do we make a God of our friend when asking him to keep us in his prayers? Do we divinize him/her when asking for his prayerful support in sickness and the trials of life? Believers on earth and in heaven constitute a living community which the major Christian denominations recognize as the communion of saints. The saints in heaven are not dead. Their Christian example of virtuous living and their closeness to God make of them powerful allies for us struggling mortals. They do not take God's place; they are an expression of his grace.

Likewise, there is nothing in Mary that would not have been in God and come from him. She is a pure product of God; this is the essential meaning of Mary's sinlessness. Never forget: if God wanted the exclusively direct relation between him and you and me he would never send Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, never allow scripture to be the foundation of our faith, never encourage his Son to found the Church or institute the sacraments. Christianity is the religion of mediation, essential and foundational in Christ; participative and subordinate in his Church and in varying degrees in the believers.

HENCE WHY WE CALL HER THE VIRGIN MARY, MOTHER OF GOD (THEOTOKOS) The expression, Mother of God, may hurt and seem preposterous. It is if by using this expression we make of Mary a super-goddess or the creator of God.

Mary is an exceptionally graced creature, not a goddess. God wanted her to be the mother of his son according to his humanity. She does not form in her womb his divine nature. This is pre- existent and comes into her womb with the power of the Spirit to coalesce in the god-human person of Jesus Christ.

To call Mary the Mother of Jesus may be correct if by saying so we do not want to reduce Jesus to a mere human being and strip him of his divine origin and nature.

To avoid linguistic difficulties official documents based on long standing words carry meanings which are not always explicit and co- extensive with their word-carriers. They need explanation. In this case, both Mother of God and Mother of Jesus need explanation.

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION Sacred Scripture does not explicitly proclaim the doctrine of Mary's Immaculate Conception (i.e. freedom from original sin from the very start of her life). The Catholic Church reflected on this question for centuries, considering biblical texts which seemed related to the topic, at least implicitly. As a result of this prolonged reflection, Pius IX issued a dogmatic definition in 1854 affirming Mary's Immaculate Conception. This declaration (Ineffabilis Deus) indicates that the teaching has been infallibly revealed by God through the living Tradition of the Church. There are also a number of scriptural passages which may be cited in support of the teaching. The angelic greeting in Lk 1:28 refers to Mary as "highly favored" or "full of grace". Both translations refer to the Greek term kecharitomene, the past perfect participle of charis which means a gift, favor or grace. In Biblical Greek, this verbal form suggests permanence and singularity. Such singular, permanent grace in Mary is essentially the same concept affirmed in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Another source of biblical evidence involves the references to Mary as "Woman" (e.g. Jn 2 and Jn 19). The evangelist alludes to Eve, who is called "Woman" in Gen 2. There are other parallels between the Genesis account of Creation and its Fall and the Johannine account of the Redemption. For example, the tree of knowledge caused Adam's death in paradise. The tree of the cross caused the death of Jesus, the new Adam, in Jn 19. So there is a certain biblical parallel between Mary, the Woman of the New Creation, and Eve, the Woman formed in original justice at the first Creation (i.e. before the Fall). This parallel is stated explicitly by very early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr (d ca 160) and Irenaeus (d. ca 220). None of this is explicit proof of the doctrine. However, it is solid support from Scripture alone.

Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effort to include all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (YouDontAgree_IDontCare@yahoo.com), December 14, 2004.


Dorian,

Thanks for posting that treasure trove of information. Very interesting details on the real "Mary-worshippers" (i.e., the Collyridians).

-- Andy S (ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004.


My pleasure Andy :)

It's a heretic cult but just leave it to one person to mention it, then like what happens frequently with information it gets accidentally, or even purposefuly distorted. So that in this day and age, you come across someone who heard it from someone else and thinks all Roman Catholics follow a 'cult'.

I like anthropology, particularily religion studies quite a bit. So now and then I happen to stumble across some of the most intrigueing things. I'm glad I could share, and hope I helped clear it up.

Though most questions can be answered if anyone just gets a good theology book from the library, and sometimes even online you can find good unbiased information. So I always suggest people do thier own research, then ask someone who follows the faith thier questions.

But even then, just because someone says they're it doesn't mean they're very knowlegeful about the why's and wherefores. So people should always read everything with a grain of salt and still double check new information. Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effor to include people of all faith: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (blahblah@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.


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