The Curate Thinks You Have No Soul 1. The Curate thinks you have no soul; I know that he has none. But you, Dear friend, whose solemn self-control, In our foursquare familiar pew, Was pattern to my youth--whose bark Called me in summer dawns to rove-- Have you gone down into the dark Where none is welcome--none may love? I will not think those good brown eyes Have spent their life of truth so soon; But in some canine paradise Your wraith, I know, rebukes the moon, And quarters every plain and hill, Seeking his master...As for me, This prayer at least the gods fulfill: That when I pass the flood and see Old Charon by the Stygian coast Take toll of all the shades who land, Your little, faithful, barking ghost May leap to lick my phantom hand

-- TC (treadmill.@yahoo.com), December 06, 2004

Answers

Hi TC

Ah! must give credit where credit is due.

"The Curate Thinks You Have No Soul", by St. John Lucas.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 06, 2004.

The above poem can also be found in the following thread:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Bfbs

Animals in Heaven discussion.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 06, 2004.

If its any consolation, I beelive Animals have souls...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 07, 2004.

If you define "soul" as the life principle, then obviously animals have souls, since they are alive. However, that doesn't address the essential issue of whether animals have immortal souls. In fact, they do not. Animals are part of the natural environment, just like plants, rocks, air, and water, and all such materials things will cease to exist. The fact that we have domesticated some of them doesn't change their basic nature. You can't take an animal to heaven with you any more than you can take your favorite car.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 07, 2004.

Paul; Unless you hae already been to Heaven, you cannot be that certain. You know that when Adam and Eve siinned, nothing was supposed to die, even animals.

So man sins, (no animals), but man gets to Heaven, but not animals, who did not sin. When you get there, (and I hope that you do), maybe one of the ones to greet you may be your dog. Of course, if you don't like animals, he may bite you instead.

-- TC (Treadmil234@south.com), December 07, 2004.

The whole concept of Heaven is so irrational to the rational mind. The book The Five People You Meet In Heaven makes me feel like Heaven is simply a state of mind. How can a soul's blissful existence include the existence with another soul if the other soul wants no part of the first soul? Unless each soul has their own personal Heaven going on, it is irrational to have your dog by your side. That leads one to believe that Heaven is a state of mind. Gosh! I hope not. I figure that Heaven is a place that will blow the mind of preconceived notions. It will be a place the mind never could conceive of in a trillion to the trillionth years and beyond.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 08, 2004.

One hting that irritates me about Paul in his answsers on this issue is his constant disregard for real facts. No evidence is used to support his claims, and ven many Popes have said Animals have Immortal souls, yet this we shall throw away so hmans can be special...Beign made int eh image of God isnt enough...it seems...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 08, 2004.

Zarove,

Do you believe that animals have "immortal souls" and if so, what facts do you have in God's word to prove this to be true?

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 12, 2004.

No Pope has ever said that animals have immortal souls. That would be in direct contradiction to the unchanging teaching of the Church that man alone was created in God's image and likeness when God breathed into him supernatural life, including an immortal soul. Everything else in physical creation is merely part of the environment in which man spends his earthly life, and there is no part of that enviroment that you can take with you when you leave this earth. Not your money, your clothes, your house, your car, your favorite rose bush,or your pet.

Another point that you should consider - the thought of having your warm cuddly puppy with you in heaven might be a fuzzy emotional experience for those with little grasp on theology, however - does your warm cuddly puoppy have more of a right to heaven than other animals? Does your dog have a right to heaven just because you took it (or its ancestors) out of its natural habitat and domesticated it? If so, then it is we, not God, who can grant access to heaven. Does that make any sense? However, if ALL animals have a right to heaven simply by virtue of God creating them, am I to assume that every single one of trillions of rats that have ever lived will be there swarming around the throne of God? Will heaven be full of rhinoceros and hippopotamus and lions? Whales? How about fish? Will there be an ocean in heaven, where every fish that ever existed will reside? Black widow spiders, fleas, scorpions, mosquitos, ticks, tapeworms? These are all animals too. And let's not forget the dinosaurs. Give a bit of thought to where your claims lead and the truth become obvious on practical grounds even if you can't find it on theological grounds.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 12, 2004.

I think this all comes down to what our vision of heaven is, or is supposed to be.

As a child I thought (and believe I was taught) it was supposed to be like a very perfect world, as recognisable as our own --- only absolutely perfect, no suffering or hatred. Reunited with Mom, Dad, Nana and all our old friends. --- It would be terribly strange if there were no animals there. Almost a vaccume if thats your understanding or expectation.

I believe many still hold this view of Heaven. I personally don't see it that way anymore, but what of those who do? Are they wrong? Whats the current description of Heaven? How should it be understood? Is it simply being reunited with God, becoming part of the "All?"

---For those expecting to see their pets, I know they won't be disappointd either way...

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 12, 2004.

Kevin write this...

Zarove, Do you believe that animals have "immortal souls" and if so, what facts do you have in God's word to prove this to be true?

Before I answer, and its a polished answer, may I ask this of you, oh my old churhc of Chrust friend? See, I was raised int he Chruch of Christ and was taught as you that only Humans had immortal souls. However, no one ever answered this.

Where in Gods word does it say they dont have immortal souls? Can you give me a spacific verse that says only man alone has an immortal Soul?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 12, 2004.

Zarove wrote, "Where in Gods word does it say they dont have immortal souls? Can you give me a spacific verse that says only man alone has an immortal Soul?"

The passage is located in Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

When animals die, they are dead... They do not have an immortal soul...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

With Christmas so near at hand we can be reminded about who was there to first greet the Baby Jesus. It was Mary, Joseph, and the animals who first greeted their creator. The animals shared their home with that baby when no one else would. So it is not too wrong to think that Our Lord will share His home with them some day.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 13, 2004.

Zarove wrote, "Where in Gods word does it say they dont have immortal souls? Can you give me a spacific verse that says only man alone has an immortal Soul?" The passage is located in Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

When animals die, they are dead... They do not have an immortal soul...

Im sory Kevin, btu Ive ehard this before, and its wrong. The toriuble is that this is presumption. You see, Solomon here is askign a queasion, not offerign a definitive statement.

read a few passages above it, you will see he makes lugt of suhc claims...

Read the rest of the section, it makes clear that your takign a verse out of context...

17. I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18. I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. {Interesting, sicne you usd a later portion of this text to say man is not an animal and has an immortal soul, whre animals do not, yet here Solomon under inspiration clams man is an animal...}-Zarove 19. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. {Man has no preemenence above the beasts. This is sacred scirpture. Why ignore this part and scip tot he part that justifies your beleif?}-Zarove 20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. {Uet again, solmon declares the same fate for man and animal alike...}-Zarove 21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? {And now we get ott he "evidence" that man has an immortal soul, and animals lack it. its phrased asa queastion, a challennge to those who say otherwise. In ligh of this fact, and in light of the fact that the rest of he pasage disparages the notion of human preemenenc in creation, I think you have fallen into the Vanity of Vanities that solomon dcondemns in this book... This verse deos not prove that man has an immortal soul, and animals do not, it claims the opposite in fact.}-Zarove 22. Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.

TC, I fully Agree...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.

Zarove wrote, " think you have fallen into the Vanity of Vanities that solomon dcondemns in this book..."

That is your opinion Zarove however it is not the truth...

If the following verse in Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?" does not mean that the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth, then please explain to us Zarove what it means???

Scripture does not say that animals will be in heaven... That is mere presumption on your part... and yet we clearly have a verse here that states that the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth and the spirit of the man goes upward... hmmm....

Where is the passage that states that animals will be in heaven???

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

Zarove wrote, " think you have fallen into the Vanity of Vanities that solomon dcondemns in this book..." That is your opinion Zarove however it is not the truth...

{ But it is th turth that the passage in ecclesiasties you quoted is hardly proof that when animals die, they simpley die, and have no immortal soul. The passage actually rejects mans preimenence. taht is nt opinion, its plain reading, and is the truth.}-Zarove

If the following verse in Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?" does not mean that the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth, then please explain to us Zarove what it means???

{I beleive I did, Kevin. It i a challenge to said belif, as Noted in my annotated reprodiction of the same passage,with the relevant verses above and be,ow it presented as well. The claim in this passage is that Humans themselves are animals, and have no preemenence. Likewise, even this passage did not include the animals spirit as becomign extinct upon death, that concept woidl have to wait till much later to be introduced to westernthough, and is not Biblcial. Animals have spuls, and hte osul endueres forevedr.}-Zarove

Scripture does not say that animals will be in heaven...

{on the contrary, it does.}-Zarove

That is mere presumption on your part...

{I don think so, I htink its arrogant presumption in yours. Again, usign the verse form ecclesiasties is illegetemate as it proves man has norpeemenence. You simpleu ignore that part altogather and distrt a queasion thats asked inorder to support an assertion you have made but clealry has no real foundation. You reject what ecclesiasties says in order to forc it to agree with you, abd expect others to do liekwise.}-Zarove

and yet we clearly have a verse here that states that the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth and the spirit of the man goes upward... hmmm....

{No we dont. Re-read the ENTIRE passage.

Let me RE-ANNOTATE it for you.Cafrefully read the HWILE THING.

16. And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17. I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18. I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.{Notive this verse. This one Kevin. This crcial verse you ignore. Man himself is a beast! We have a clear verse that says man is a beast! You say man isnt a beast, yet hee in black and white, in scirptrie, you are contradicted! Why shoidl I beleive man has an immortal soul and animals do not when the Bible said man is himslf an animal!? Is this not written? How is htis presumption, when I follow what is written? Why ignroe this? or perhaos reinterpret it to fut your preconceicved notions? The Bibel says man is an animal Kevin. Right here.}-Zarove 19. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. {Here is says man has no preimenence above a Beast Kevin. See, right here. Again in scriptrue. Its as palin as daylight. You ignore it, you will later reinterpret it, btu hee is what the Bibel says... Man has no preimenence above the beasts. so it is wrtten.}-Zarove

20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.{All go to the same place Kevin. Do I beleive you and your isolated verse, or the full wieght of scipture?}-Zarove

21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? {Posed as a queasion, in direct challenge tot he eiw you are espousing, this verse clealry was meant to convey the absurdity of sayign man has a soul that ascneds, and the soul of animals decends ot he earth. read i, its a qeastion. It oesnt clealry say thsat animal soul decent intot he earth while man soil ascends. Rather the reverse, it asks how do we know that this is the truth. Its arejection of Human-centredness. A rejection of hat notion. Its plainly a queatsion, and not a definitive statement, when taken alone, and when put into perspective its a challenge that contraceeds the notion of humanitis superiority over animals. Ive explained twice now, must I rpeat a third time?}-Zarove

22. Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

}-Zarove

Where is the passage that states that animals will be in heaven???

{http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/pets.shtml

My answer is simpel Kevin. The silence o ghe scriptures. No mention is made either way, but sinc Animals have souls ( as is evidneced in numerous passages with refernecr to there "ruach", that beign translated, there soul, it is only logical to conclude there continued existance.

Noentheless, your passage in ecclesiasties doesnt clealry say there spirits go down intot he earth whikle ans ascneds, and most assureldy doesnt speak of the extinction of there souls, it challenges this beleif, rather than proclaiming it. }-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.

Solomon said that "man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity." in verse 19 and he explains himself in verse 20 when he states, "All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust."

Man has no advantage over animals because we both die on this earth...

Animals do not have eternal souls...

Animals were never promised eternal life...

Animals die and they are dead...

There is no proof that animals are in heaven...

Now whether or not God will create animals for our companions in heaven is not stated in the Bible...

The animals that die on this earth are dead...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

I iwll post a longer reply later on my stattements baitu animals haivng souls, hwoever Kevin, can you show where they dont have immoral souls form scrioture? The passage form ecclesiasties does not reveal what you claim it revelas, and indeed, strengthens my own case.

Al you have done is present your own biases and interpolited them into a plain reading of the text, which challegnes the very idea you use it to support, even when taken in isolation.

Show me a clear an dunambigupous Versed that says man has an immortal soul that animals lack, or else admit that the topic is silent in revealign such things.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.

"All go to the same place Kevin. Do I beleive you and your isolated verse, or the full wieght of scipture?}-Zarove"

What is the "full weight of scripture" that proves that animals will be in heaven Zarove? Please quote book, chapter and verse in your reply...

Looks like you posted just before I did... :-)

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

"I don think so, I htink its arrogant presumption in yours."

No, not arrogant, just reading exactly what the verses state...

"Again, usign the verse form ecclesiasties is illegetemate as it proves man has norpeemenence."

Yea, man has no pre-eminence "on this earth"... the reason that Solomon made this statement is that both man and animals "die"... get it...

"You simpleu ignore that part altogather and distrt a queasion thats asked inorder to support an assertion you have made but clealry has no real foundation."

Actually, you are the one who espouses a belief (again) that is not found in scripture... The Bible nowhere states that animals have eteranal souls and that is nothing but presumption on your part...

"You reject what ecclesiasties says in order to forc it to agree with you, abd expect others to do liekwise.}-Zarove"

Who said that I am "forcing" anyone to agree with me??? It is the word of God that states that animals who die go down to the earth... in other words they are dead... there is nothing stated in scripture that says animals will be in heaven nor were the animals ever promised anything of the sort...

If you believe that animals will be in heaven, that is your perogative... I am merely pointing out to you that your belief is not in accordance with what has been revealed in God's word...

-- k\ (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

"I iwll post a longer reply later on my stattements baitu animals haivng souls, hwoever Kevin, can you show where they dont have immoral souls form scrioture?"

Can you post scripture that shows that animals do have an immortal soul from scripture???

"The passage form ecclesiasties does not reveal what you claim it revelas, and indeed, strengthens my own case."

You are mistaken Zarove... You think this strengthens your case however this is not so...

"Al you have done is present your own biases and interpolited them into a plain reading of the text, which challegnes the very idea you use it to support, even when taken in isolation."

Actually, a plain reading of the text will not result in someone believing that animals have eternal souls... This takes some serious twisting of the text for it to state what you believe this passage is stating...

"Show me a clear an dunambigupous Versed that says man has an immortal soul that animals lack, or else admit that the topic is silent in revealign such things."

We know that man has an immortal soul... If you claim that animals will be in heaven, then it is your responsibility to prove this to be true... The Bible never states that animals will be in heaven and those who claim they will be there have the burden to prove this to be true...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

kevin, you tak a queatsion andmak it an answer. Solomon in verse 22 did nto say animal soiuls DID decent wile human oens rose, he asked a queation, and its weak at best as evodence.

Howeved, animals in heaven are mentioend in isaiah, revelations, and Psalms.

Howevee, its late, so I shall ofer more tomorrow.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 13, 2004.

"kevin, you tak a queatsion andmak it an answer. Solomon in verse 22 did nto say animal soiuls DID decent wile human oens rose, he asked a queation, and its weak at best as evodence."

The same goes for your evidence in this passage Zarove...

"Howeved, animals in heaven are mentioend in isaiah, revelations, and Psalms."

Just because they are mentioned in Isaiah, revelations and Psalms is no proof they will be in heaven...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

"Another point that you should consider - the thought of having your warm cuddly puppy with you in heaven might be a fuzzy emotional experience for those with little grasp on theology, however - does your warm cuddly puoppy have more of a right to heaven than other animals? Does your dog have a right to heaven just because you took it (or its ancestors) out of its natural habitat and domesticated it? If so, then it is we, not God, who can grant access to heaven. Does that make any sense? However, if ALL animals have a right to heaven simply by virtue of God creating them, am I to assume that every single one of trillions of rats that have ever lived will be there swarming around the throne of God? Will heaven be full of rhinoceros and hippopotamus and lions? Whales? How about fish? Will there be an ocean in heaven, where every fish that ever existed will reside? Black widow spiders, fleas, scorpions, mosquitos, ticks, tapeworms? These are all animals too. And let's not forget the dinosaurs. Give a bit of thought to where your claims lead and the truth become obvious on practical grounds even if you can't find it on theological grounds."

Exactly...

There is no Biblical proof that animals will be in heaven...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 13, 2004.

A simple question:

Where is heaven ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 14, 2004.

I think the real question Laurent is "what" is heaven? I understand it as a state of real and totally unobstructed unity with God, the Creator of the universe who is the source of all love.

Just my amateur point of view.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004.

Laurent

"Where is heaven ??"

only one way to find out!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 14, 2004.

"There is no Biblical proof that animals will be in heaven... "-- Kevin.

I wonder if there is any Biblical proof for the many things that do exist in this universe.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 14, 2004.

Andy , actually , I could better ask , where or what is heaven ?? ;)

Ian , I love life 2 much , so I will not try this jump , 'cause nobody is ever return from the death !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 14, 2004.

evin, I idnt say Animals where mentioend int he verses, I said Animals where mentioend in Heaven in the verses, didnt you read?

As for ecclesiasties, I didnt claim it supported my agruemn fully, only that it leaned toeard my arguent. It des not unequivically say Animals have no souls, nor does it say thre soul decend intot he earht whole mans arises tot he ehavens, as you assert, but asks a qieasion and is actulaly arefutaiton of te concept.

you hav yet to provide me with what i asked. A clear and unambiguous verse fromt he Biel that says " Animals have no immortal souls, only Humans have immortal souls".

I will post later tonight.

Sorry, collage finals.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 14, 2004.

There is a scripture in Genesis somewhere that says animals do have souls. (I don't have time to look for it). They have no spirit, but they have a soul.

Animals are depicted at many major events throughout the Bible. For instance, they greeted our Lord at His birth! Romans says "All creation awaits the revealing of the sons of God." There are animals depicted in the book of Revelations.

And finally, and most importantly, why would God create the wonder of animals of all kinds for our pleasure on earth, but not in heaven? That is completely illogical.

Heaven will have colors we have never seen, smells we have never smelled, tastes we have never tasted, musical notes that explode in choruses unimaginable, and animals of all varieties.

Gail

BTW, Zarove, you were wise not to rely so much on Eccl. as Solomon was in the depths of depression when he wrote the book, CONTEXT!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 14, 2004.

Laurent

"Ian , I love life 2 much , so I will not try this jump , 'cause nobody is ever return from the death !! "

i never thought of this angle, to be honest. perhaps it shows our different perspectives.

what i mean was "try to get there". if you do get there, you'll know where it is.

but live for as long as you possibly can in either event.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 14, 2004.

Hi Laurent,

I love life too much to ever turn my back on God. As my relationship with God grows, my joy and desire to serve Him increases. There is truly nothing better in life than to serve God, and heaven is like the fulfillment of that. Spending eternity in the presence of a God who loves me and wants me as a part of His family.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004.

"evin, I idnt say Animals where mentioend int he verses, I said Animals where mentioend in Heaven in the verses, didnt you read?"

Okay... I did read... Did you read my response to what you posted?

"As for ecclesiasties, I didnt claim it supported my agruemn fully, only that it leaned toeard my arguent."

Here is what you wrote: "The passage form ecclesiasties does not reveal what you claim it revelas, and indeed, strengthens my own case."

"It des not unequivically say Animals have no souls, nor does it say thre soul decend intot he earht whole mans arises tot he ehavens, as you assert, but asks a qieasion and is actulaly arefutaiton of te concept."

Let's look at the text again shall we...

Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

The text specifically states the sprit of the sons of men goes upward to heaven and the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth...

This is not a refutation of the concept... The concept here is that man and animals die... That is the point...

"you hav yet to provide me with what i asked. A clear and unambiguous verse fromt he Biel that says " Animals have no immortal souls, only Humans have immortal souls"."

And you have yet to provide me a verse that states clearly and unequivocally that animals do have immortal souls...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 14, 2004.

"evin, I idnt say Animals where mentioend int he verses, I said Animals where mentioend in Heaven in the verses, didnt you read?"

Okay... I did read... Did you read my response to what you posted?

{Yes, and your anser is still weak.}-Zarove

"As for ecclesiasties, I didnt claim it supported my agruemn fully, only that it leaned toeard my arguent."

Here is what you wrote: "The passage form ecclesiasties does not reveal what you claim it revelas, and indeed, strengthens my own case."

{Yes. and it does strengthen my poition. It oes not, nowever, prove my position. This is the error you made. Strengtheneing the posiiton is not the same as unnequivical evidence.

But it does appear to refute your own claims of man as a special creation.

You constantly ignore the fact that it si a queatsion, not a tatement of fact, nd ignore the fact that the rest of the passage seems to be derailing the very idea that you ar advocating. }-Zarove

"It des not unequivically say Animals have no souls, nor does it say thre soul decend intot he earht whole mans arises tot he ehavens, as you assert, but asks a qieasion and is actulaly arefutaiton of te concept."

Let's look at the text again shall we...

{Why? So you can again lie about its content? and yes, I said you lied. The reaosn is because you re now repeatign the same hting you said initially, without even so much as acknoeledging the fac tthat it is a queatsion, not a statement of fact...}-Zarove

Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

{Notice the queatsion mark Kevin? Thjis passage does nto say the souls of the sons of men acentd to heaven and hte beatss decentd intot he Earth, it ASKS who knows if this si the case. It does not, hwoever, say this is the case. This, of coruse, if what you want it ot say, but it rellay qieatsions that assumption, rather than supports it.}-Zarove.

The text specifically states the sprit of the sons of men goes upward to heaven and the spirit of the animal goes down to the earth...

{No, it doesnt. It spacificlaly queatsions this. Read it again. I will highlight parts.

Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows ( Askign a queatsion, not makign a definitice zstatement) the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

It is not saign the souls fo th sons of men Go upward ot Heaven and the osusl fo the animals decend intot he Earth. It is, indeed, as it has been popitned out numerous tmes, a queatsion. One cannto transform a queatsion into a statment of fact.

Now, why do you think I shoudl ignore the queation mrk, and thr rest of the chapoter, so as to fit your own conclusion that animal souls cease to exist? Least of all since his text doesn emantion sousl ceasing to exist at all, merley deceniding iot he eartj, and less so when oen relaises its not even syaing that this happens, but rather is askign who knows if this siathe case?

Its a challenge tot he very beelif you now use it to defend!}-Zarove

This is not a refutation of the concept... The concept here is that man and animals die... That is the point...

{Noentheless, you cannot use this oassage to prove Animals lack immortal souls, sinc it is not a definitive statement, btu a queatsion. You are nw guilty of taing a quot eout of context to support yourposiiton.

The quote dosnt even on its own support your posiiton. No where does it even mention the cesation of existanc f animal souls, neither does it mention at all that mans soul ascneds to Heaven and animal souls deced intot he earth.

Rather, it only asks who knows if this is the case. Its not relaly proof Kevin. You cannot use someones queatsion that activcley refutes the claim you make in the precceedign verses you omit to support your proposition.}-Zarove

"you hav yet to provide me with what i asked. A clear and unambiguous verse fromt he Biel that says " Animals have no immortal souls, only Humans have immortal souls"."

And you have yet to provide me a verse that states clearly and unequivocally that animals do have immortal souls...

{I told you I woudl prpvide my case after you show yours. So far all you have shown is ecclesiaSTIES, and hat rpeatedly. You claim Ecclesiasties 3:21 proves your case, but in addition to not mentioning extinction for animal souls, its nto even a statement of fact, btu a qyeatsion. when taken in context, it doesnt even remotely resemble evidence for the case of the fact you present it to supprot, that beign tht man has an Immortal soul and animals do not.

Again, you cannot use a queation to prov yor point, you must use semthign that aculsly says man has an immortal soul and no other livignbeing int he flesh does.

You must prove this with actual evidence, and not from things that queatsion your assertion.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 14, 2004.

"{Yes, and your anser is still weak.}-Zarove"

Your answer is not supported in the Bible...

"{Yes. and it does strengthen my poition. It oes not, nowever, prove my position. This is the error you made. Strengtheneing the posiiton is not the same as unnequivical evidence."

Okay... I never stated this passage "proved" your position... No error here...

"But it does appear to refute your own claims of man as a special creation."

Who ever said that man was a "special creation"??? I certainly did nothing of the sort...

"You constantly ignore the fact that it si a queatsion, not a tatement of fact, nd ignore the fact that the rest of the passage seems to be derailing the very idea that you ar advocating. }-Zarove"

You completely ignore the context of the passage... The text I quoted does not "derail" my idea at all... That is your opinion...

I wrote, "Let's look at the text again shall we..."

To which Zarove replied, "{Why? So you can again lie about its content?"

So now you are accusing me of "lying"???? Please... Because I state that this verse shows that the souls of men go upward and the souls of animals go down to the earth now I am a "liar"???

"and yes, I said you lied. The reaosn is because you re now repeatign the same hting you said initially, without even so much as acknoeledging the fac tthat it is a queatsion, not a statement of fact...}-Zarove"

Okay, so this verse was formed as a question... This does not mean that I am "lying" as you assert...

I quoted, "Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

To which Zarove replied, "{Notice the queatsion mark Kevin? Thjis passage does nto say the souls of the sons of men acentd to heaven and hte beatss decentd intot he Earth, it ASKS who knows if this si the case. It does not, hwoever, say this is the case."

Who is it that "knows" the spirit of the sons of men that goes upward and the spirit of the animals that goes downward??? The "who" in this passage is God and it is a question that man does not "know" but God does for He created us...

In Ecclesiastes 12:7, the text states, "7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

This passage speaks of the spirits of men that will return to God... Where is the passage that says that the spirits of animals will return to God???

"Now, why do you think I shoudl ignore the queation mrk, and thr rest of the chapoter, so as to fit your own conclusion that animal souls cease to exist? Least of all since his text doesn emantion sousl ceasing to exist at all, merley deceniding iot he eartj, and less so when oen relaises its not even syaing that this happens, but rather is askign who knows if this siathe case?"

Where is your proof that animals will continue to exist after they die on this earth Zarove???

"{Noentheless, you cannot use this oassage to prove Animals lack immortal souls, sinc it is not a definitive statement, btu a queatsion. You are nw guilty of taing a quot eout of context to support yourposiiton."

Okay, I will stop using this passage and I await your passage(s) that prove that animals have "immortal souls"...

"The quote dosnt even on its own support your posiiton. No where does it even mention the cesation of existanc f animal souls, neither does it mention at all that mans soul ascneds to Heaven and animal souls deced intot he earth."

Go back and re-read Ecclessiastes 12:7...

"Rather, it only asks who knows if this is the case. Its not relaly proof Kevin. You cannot use someones queatsion that activcley refutes the claim you make in the precceedign verses you omit to support your proposition.}-Zarove"

Very well however, don't accuse me of lying when I am doing nothing of the sort...

"{I told you I woudl prpvide my case after you show yours. So far all you have shown is ecclesiaSTIES, and hat rpeatedly. You claim Ecclesiasties 3:21 proves your case, but in addition to not mentioning extinction for animal souls, its nto even a statement of fact, btu a qyeatsion. when taken in context, it doesnt even remotely resemble evidence for the case of the fact you present it to supprot, that beign tht man has an Immortal soul and animals do not."

You are the one who claims that animals will be in heaven, so it is your responsibility to prove it...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 14, 2004.

Which animal was ever promised the tree of life???

Can an animal obey God and live forever??? (See Genesis 3:22, Revelation 22:14)...

-- Kevin Walker (navyscporetired@comcast.net"), December 14, 2004.

"{Yes, and your anser is still weak.}-Zarove"

Your answer is not supported in the Bible...

I am beign Generous, Kevin. I am giving you oportunity to sipport your beleif, beforr I support my own. Your beleif,it seems, is equelly void of scriptural support. Indeed, you seem at a loss, dsignign ot manufacture evidence by a corruption of a verse, rather than selecitng even the standard Chruch of Christ Argumets I grew up with. Mhy beleifs are supported Biblically, I merley ask patirnce before I grantt Them.

"{Yes. and it does strengthen my poition. It oes not, nowever, prove my position. This is the error you made. Strengtheneing the posiiton is not the same as unnequivical evidence."

Okay... I never stated this passage "proved" your position... No error here...

o, you Implied ghat I belived my case was priven by this passage. However, clealry your position is not supported by it.

"But it does appear to refute your own claims of man as a special creation."

Who ever said that man was a "special creation"??? I certainly did nothing of the sort...

You did mak this claim. You claim man has an Immortal soul, and is Uniwue in the possession of such. this makes man created special. Unique.

It is alo a claim that appears to hae no Biblical support. As you have just illustrated with your lack of scriptural references.

"You constantly ignore the fact that it si a queatsion, not a tatement of fact, nd ignore the fact that the rest of the passage seems to be derailing the very idea that you ar advocating. }-Zarove"

You completely ignore the context of the passage...

I am the one who out it in context. You are th one who removed a verse from context. The verse does not, hwoever, state that Humans have immortal souls, and ANimals do not. Neither does it state that Human sols rise to Heaven,, and animal SOuls decend to the Earth. It asks "Who knows if' this is the case, it does not, however, support your claim.

The text I quoted does not "derail" my idea at all... That is your opinion...

It is your opinion that the verse clalry states that Human Souls ERise to Heaven and Animal SOul decend into the Earht thus proving that Animals lacj Immortsal SOuls. However, a plain reading ds not support your conclusion.

I offered no opinion, Kevin me lad, I offered only a direct reading.

I wrote, "Let's look at the text again shall we..."

To which Zarove replied, "{Why? So you can again lie about its content?"

So now you are accusing me of "lying"????

Wht else can I call it when you distort an obvious pasage, and use it repeatedly in the face of correction. I do not will to think of you as an idiot. Midn you, I do notthink you ar eoverlal dishoenst, but you allow your midn to be clouded with your own desire for this to be proof of what it is not, thus you propogate a deception.

Please... Because I state that this verse shows that the souls of men go upward and the souls of animals go down to the earth now I am a "liar"???

Yes and No. The first time you aid this, i showed you how this was not so. I offered the same explanation two addiitonal times before callin into queatsion your hoensty.

The verse does not plainly state that animal suls decen ino the Earht while Human Souls ris to Heaven. Instead, it asks who knwos if his is the case. It is not a statemen of fact, btu a queasuon posed ot he reader, and in ligh of the former portions ofthe same text, it can hardly be seen as a text that proves your conclusion that Nimal souls cease at Death, since the pasage neither mentions the cesation of there souls, nor dos it mention as a fact that the Human soul rises and the Animal Soul decends. Again, it asks the queatsion, and does not make any statement.

"and yes, I said you lied. The reaosn is because you re now repeatign the same hting you said initially, without even so much as acknoeledging the fac tthat it is a queatsion, not a statement of fact...}-Zarove"

Okay, so this verse was formed as a question... This does not mean that I am "lying" as you assert...

Unfortunatley, it does, though you may likewise be lying eve n to yourself.

The statement in ecclesiasties 3:21 is not a statement at all, btu a queation posed tot he reader, and thus does nto say that animal Souls decend intot he Earth, and Human sousl ris tot he Heavens, rater, it plainly queastiosn this assertion.

Likewise, even if it where a palin statemen fo fact and not a queatsion, no mention is made of animals souls perishing.

Neither of these things are acknowledged int he verse, yet you repeateldy say that Human Osuls clealry are shown rising and Animal Souls decneding, dspite the obviosu fact that the auhtor, here Solomon, is askign the reader, us, a queatsion, and is not assertign fact or makign definiticve statements.

Since you refised to see this, and repeated the sme trhing as if not corrected, oen can only conclude dishoensty in your approach.

I mean not to cultiuvate ill will here, but I certainly cannot compromise the scirptires based upon your mere opinion, which in this case can clealry be demonstrated as wrong.

I quoted, "Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

To which Zarove replied, "{Notice the queatsion mark Kevin? Thjis passage does nto say the souls of the sons of men acentd to heaven and hte beatss decentd intot he Earth, it ASKS who knows if this si the case. It does not, hwoever, say this is the case."

Who is it that "knows" the spirit of the sons of men that goes upward and the spirit of the animals that goes downward??? The "who" in this passage is God and it is a question that man does not "know" but God does for He created us...

For soemone who is in love wihthte Phrase, "Thats Your opinion, but your wrong" you cerainly revel in error.

A plain reading of the text does not reveal that God knwos that mans soul ascended and we dont. Indeed, the (Huamn) audience will knwo after reaidng it, and it certianly wasnt meant to tell them this as a fact.

Readign the text planly, it si a challenge to preconceivexd noons held in the midns of the readers of the day, and is not a statement of God knowign Human Sousl ar eimmortal and Animal Souls perish. This is mere opinion, based upon a conclusion you alreay had formed, and certainly not germane tot he topic at hand.

A plain reading of scirpture shoudl suffice, an the palin reading dos nto lead to the exegesis you propose.

In Ecclesiastes 12:7, the text states, "7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

This passage speaks of the spirits of men that will return to God... Where is the passage that says that the spirits of animals will return to God???

Why do you asusme the Spirit in this passag eis only the psirit of man? Why coudl it not be the spirits of any living thing? Aain, your opinion that it means only the spirit of man is not suffecient evidence fromt he text to prove your case. I need more than Kevins opinion to interrpet the word of God.

Th pasage you not quote does not limit this rule to only umanity, neither in the enture 12th Chapter where you puleld it form does it disclaIM ANYHTIGN ABOUT aNIMALS AND LIMIT THIS TO hUMANITY.

Your opinion that it speaks of the spirit of man only is not relevant tot he topic, which is offerign clear criptural evidence of the claim, and not scirptrue that has been filtered through your opinion.

"Now, why do you think I shoudl ignore the queation mrk, and thr rest of the chapoter, so as to fit your own conclusion that animal souls cease to exist? Least of all since his text doesn emantion sousl ceasing to exist at all, merley deceniding iot he eartj, and less so when oen relaises its not even syaing that this happens, but rather is askign who knows if this siathe case?"

Where is your proof that animals will continue to exist after they die on this earth Zarove???

Where is yours that they wont? You haved manipulated two pasages from ecclesiasties, and distorte there menaing. In one, you take a queatsion and make it a statment of fact, in the other you say it refers oly to mans spirit and ask me to show wher eit refers to animal spirits int he same way, when the pasage coudl eqelly apply to anumals as well as Humans.

You have yet to show a single shred of evidence to support yourposition scripturaslly, therfore, rather than state as a fact that animals lack immortal souls, woudl it not be more prudent to say that you belive thet lack them, and have no evidnece?

"{Noentheless, you cannot use this oassage to prove Animals lack immortal souls, sinc it is not a definitive statement, btu a queatsion. You are nw guilty of taing a quot eout of context to support yourposiiton."

Okay, I will stop using this passage and I await your passage(s) that prove that animals have "immortal souls"...

I shall present my arugments on Monday, if you conceed that no passage of the Bibel says that only man has an immortal soul. If you say that the Bible is clear on th issue, I will demand to see this evidence first.

"The quote dosnt even on its own support your posiiton. No where does it even mention the cesation of existanc f animal souls, neither does it mention at all that mans soul ascneds to Heaven and animal souls deced intot he earth."

Go back and re-read Ecclessiastes 12:7...

OK...

7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This doe snot say ...

7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit of man shall return unto God who gave it.

Your opinion is that this verse refers only to Human spirits, then you presume to ask me based on this unfounded opinion where it mentions Animal spirits. i ontend that this verse can equelly applu to animal life as well as Human. Note: I said contend that it can, nto does.

You asusme that it applies only to Humanity, but nohtign in the entire 12th chapter of eclesiasties limits verse 7 only to Human spirits. This is presumed in its menaign by you, n lacks textual support.

"Rather, it only asks who knows if this is the case. Its not relaly proof Kevin. You cannot use someones queatsion that activcley refutes the claim you make in the precceedign verses you omit to support your proposition.}-Zarove"

Very well however, don't accuse me of lying when I am doing nothing of the sort...

Yo did, when you used dishoenst tactics. You are repeatign the dishoenst tactics by usign your opinion on Ecc Chapter 12, by claimign that verse seven refers to only Human psirits, when indeed nohtign in the passage, reprodiced below, limits it to only umanity, and this is your opinion, added tot he scriptrues, and lakcign int he origional.

7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Whre in this verse is it limited only to Humanity? Wy shoudl I beelive it is? Based on your opinion?

"{I told you I woudl prpvide my case after you show yours. So far all you have shown is ecclesiaSTIES, and hat rpeatedly. You claim Ecclesiasties 3:21 proves your case, but in addition to not mentioning extinction for animal souls, its nto even a statement of fact, btu a qyeatsion. when taken in context, it doesnt even remotely resemble evidence for the case of the fact you present it to supprot, that beign tht man has an Immortal soul and animals do not."

You are the one who claims that animals will be in heaven, so it is your responsibility to prove it...

I also claimd the Bible is not clear and htis is my beleif. I make no claims of fact behyoing what I know. This is the dividing lien between myself and you.

You now claim that ecclesiasties chapter 12 verse 7 supporots you by tellign us of human spoirits retirngin to God and omiting animal spirits, yet you have no mean of showign that this si the case. I suspect you will repeat your actpons form ecc Chapter 3 on Chapter 12. You will insist your opinion is fact withotu givign any reason to beelive it is a fact.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 14, 2004.

-- zarove (ZAROFF3@juno.com), December 15, 2004.

Laurent "Ian , I love life 2 much , so I will not try this jump , 'cause nobody is ever return from the death !! "

i never thought of this angle, to be honest. perhaps it shows our different perspectives.

what i mean was "try to get there". if you do get there, you'll know where it is.

but live for as long as you possibly can in either event.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 14, 2004.

Hi Laurent, I love life too much to ever turn my back on God. As my relationship with God grows, my joy and desire to serve Him increases. There is truly nothing better in life than to serve God, and heaven is like the fulfillment of that. Spending eternity in the presence of a God who loves me and wants me as a part of His family.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004.

Indeed , everyone has another vision - opinion , but still , we have 1 thing in common: Life itself & the death !!

Also , I still remember all the animals which we had in the past !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 16, 2004.

Lumme. Was it something that I said?

-- Mark Grout (mark.grout@gmail.com), December 20, 2004.

Another take on this argument:

"As above, so below" meaning that everything here is a mirror of what is above. It is a well known hermetic inscription from the emerald tablet, possibly predating even Christanity.

My own beliefs (I was baptized Catholic but I study Rosicrucianism), is that we are ALL part of the ONE. Have you heard of ascension? Everything in this Universe, was created by the ONE. The big bang theory does not make sense. There had to be a supreme being to start everything. Something can not come out of nothing. The ONE became lonely, and so created everything out of itself. (as above so below)

Science can actually prove that we are of the exact same stuff as the animals, down to the atomic level. We are born same as them, and we die same as them. We ARE the same as them, only we are more evolved mentally.

And to answer about my thoughts on what heaven is... it is the journey back to being ONE with the creator. At that level there is no distinction between man and animal. Once we ascend to that level, we are all just ONE. There is no more "I AM" ... just eternal love and content. Because we are ALL part of the ONE and made from the ONE. In other words.. God is in all of us always... we are a part of him and so are the animals (and infact the whole Earth, and everything else in the Universe)

The problem I have with taking things in the Bible literally is that it might have been inspired by God... but it was written by Man, and translated by Man. How can we take anything so literally?

Another point to ponder - when scientists find proof that life exists on other planets... and it WILL happen .... how will this affect your beliefs? If God only made MAN in his image... and Christ only dies for OUR sins... how can another intelligent advanced race have a 'soul' as we do? It's easy... because what he meant by creating us in his image was that we are all made from him... and are a part of him, us the animals, the plants etc everything is made OF the ONE! Thats why we are made in his image. Scientists will prove this... at least on a small scale. Try looking up the existence of 'zero point energy' or the 'aether theory' quantum physics is actually proving this. This accounts for consciousness...

Try a site called http://www.ascension2000.com and read the book 'Shift of the Ages' it will not disocount religion... it infact proves it, including scripture from the Bible.

-- Wanda McDonald (synergie@accesswave.ca), December 21, 2004.

Another take on this argument:

{hOPE YOU DONT MIND REBUTTLES, WE'RE GOOD AT THAT HERE.}

"As above, so below" meaning that everything here is a mirror of what is above. It is a well known hermetic inscription from the emerald tablet, possibly predating even Christanity.

{sorry, no. "As above so Below" is an ancient funerary tight form the Pre-Hellenic cultures, so though it ds predate Christainity, which itself doesnt make it an autority here, it does not eman that what is on earth is mirrored in Heaven. Instead, what it means is that as oen lived in earht, so he shall in the afterlife. for instance, if a man was walthy in this life, and the gods deemed him worhty of continued existance in the vblessed relm of the dead, as oppsoed to exile in the realm of shadows, he woudl liekwise be wealthy in the nexct life. its based ont he beelif that a susl merit is rewarded by the gods materially. thus if you are rich, the gods have plessed you, if you are poor, the gods cursed you, and will continue to after death.

Liekwise, this is another problem. The " It predates Christainity" argument. s what? Geocentirsm predates Chrisauinty, that desnt make it true. older isnt alwas better.}-Zarove

My own beliefs (I was baptized Catholic but I study Rosicrucianism), is that we are ALL part of the ONE.

{Thats noce, but doesnt connec ttot he issue directly. Buddhism has the same concept, nly in Sme forms,w hn you fie, thats it, your ovcer, only your energy goes on...we are all "recycled" and part of the one...}-Zarove

Have you heard of ascension?

{Yes.}-Zarove

Everything in this Universe, was created by the ONE.

{Ok, qiht you so far...}-Zarove

The big bang theory does not make sense.

{Uhm...why not? }-Zarove

There had to be a supreme being to start everything.

{The Irony beign a Christain came up wihthte Big Bang theory as an alternative to the steady state thery , which stated that th Universe never rellay changed and eeeryhtign balanced out and it had neither beginnign nor ending. Based on he Bible, he undestood the Universe to have had a stratign point. His ida in the Primordial atom Teheory, alter nrenamed Big Bang as a joke and the name stuck, was to show this as not the case, whih he did mathematiclaly...

Big Bang theory dosnt prclud God, and practiclal demands him... }- Zarove

Something can not come out of nothing.

{Normally this is true but not always in quntum Ohysics, besods his opens up the "wher dd od come form" problem, which we wotn address...}-Zarove

The ONE became lonely, and so created everything out of itself. (as above so below)

{As aove so beliw, as stated, as a funeary ight, and has nothign to do with the ONE creatign anything...

Likewise, how can the ONE become lonely wiht no frame of refernece to what its liek to have company? mean, we get loeny becaae as social anmals we ar designed to be around others. But was od designed to be around others, and if so by whom? and why if no oen else existed?}-Zarove

Science can actually prove that we are of the exact same stuff as the animals, down to the atomic level. We are born same as them, and we die same as them. We ARE the same as them, only we are more evolved mentally.

{Agreed. Solomon also agrees in the misues pasage by Kevin when he said " I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."}-Zarove

And to answer about my thoughts on what heaven is... it is the journey back to being ONE with the creator.

{Ok...}-Zarove

At that level there is no distinction between man and animal.

{Ok...}-Zarove

Once we ascend to that level, we are all just ONE.

{But wait, wasnt God lonly when he crarted us? if we all go back to beign the ONE then wodln the ONE be loenly all over again, repeatign the vicious cyce?}-Zarove

There is no more "I AM" ... just eternal love and content.

{Untl the ONE becomes lonely again...}-Zarove

Because we are ALL part of the ONE and made from the ONE. In other words.. God is in all of us always... we are a part of him and so are the animals (and infact the whole Earth, and everything else in the Universe)

{So your a Pantheist...}-Zarove

The problem I have with taking things in the Bible literally is that it might have been inspired by God... but it was written by Man, and translated by Man. How can we take anything so literally?

{I dotn always read the translatons, and onlyt he Origional Languages are Authoruity to me.

likewise, we can take thigns literaly becaise soemthigns where itnended ot be literal.

Saying "The Bible isnt literal' base don this perjorative is liek sayinf my Physic books arent literal if they quote einstien sinc he wrote in german his rlativity theory.

Parts of the Bible are taken literlay because htey read as literal Histry,a nd translation doesn effect htis mucg of th discusisin, nor the factthat its wrtten by man.}-Zarove

Another point to ponder - when scientists find proof that life exists on other planets... and it WILL happen ....

{How do you know? I mean, Im all for there beign life on ither worlds, I beleie its emenently likely, btu there is no way i can say with certainty that there is lifeon other planets, its sheer speulation. what if your wrong?}-Zarove

how will this affect your beliefs?

{It wont. God merely created this as well...}-Zarove

If God only made MAN in his image... and Christ only dies for OUR sins... how can another intelligent advanced race have a 'soul' as we do?

{Sicne I espuse that Animals have souls, this is rlelay a Nonsequeter for me. why ask this?

On the othe rhand, two thigns otconsidr.

1: what if we are the only intelelgent life in he Univrse? what if the othe rklife is microbial or at best animal level?

2: what if there is no life elsewhere?

we cannot knwo for usre whats out there, no can we?}-Zarove

It's easy... because what he meant by creating us in his image was that we are all made from him...

{No, he made us to have dominion over this planet. Thus the animal aent in his image, btu they do have immortal souls...}-Zarove

and are a part of him, us the animals, the plants etc everything is made OF the ONE!

{At leats in theory...}-Zarove

Thats why we are made in his image.

{no, we ar emad ein his image becaue he mad eus in his image, no proof of oters made in his image as of yet. owever, we do hav roof that animals hav immoral souls.}-Zarove

Scientists will prove this... at least on a small scale.

{sicnetiisst go ino theoogy now?}-Zarove

Try looking up the existence of 'zero point energy' or the 'aether theory' quantum physics is actually proving this. This accounts for consciousness...

{eather was discredited, it was a 19th century idea that explaiend lught tranmision throu space. Relativity ended ether theory for good, Im afraid.

The other just relates to central diffusion of energy.

It doesnt crrelate to anythign you said.}-Zarove

Try a site called http://www.ascension2000.com and read the book 'Shift of the Ages' it will not disocount religion... it infact proves it, including scripture from the Bible.

{ Wy shoudl I bother wiht a new age book hats fulled iwh nonsence?}- Zarove

Least of all if it advocates eather...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 21, 2004.