Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Revelation 21:13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, threee on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I'm curious to know which twelve?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004

Answers

Would Judas be included? Seems strange that the betrayer would be a name on one of the twelve foundations. But, he was chosen by the Lamb in the beginning.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Judas wasn't a foundation of the Church either. He had hanged himself before the Church was founded. Paul seems like the more likely candidate. Though, he also regarded the "super-apostles" as a different group than himself.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Of course, we cannot leave out Matthias. He was chosen to replace Judas. Don't hear much about him though.,

-- Luke Juarezq (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Mattias was chosen by rolling dice or whatever, but me thinks Paul was God's actual choice. What's more fitting than to replace the worst disciple with someone who turns out to be the best? ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), November 17, 2004.

St. Paul? Saul? Interesting.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 17, 2004.

Matthias witnessed the resurrected Christ along with the other eleven. He also was present in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came upon them in tongues of flame and the church began. Paul wasn't.

Saul/Paul had a special introduction to the resurrected Christ, but very different than the others. Paul received the Holy Spirit in a different way than the Twelve. Acts 9:27 tells us that Barnabas took Paul to the apostles since they were afraid of Paul.

That's why I lean toward Matthias rather than Paul as one of the "twelve apostles of the Lamb." I tend to think that John would consider Matthias one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb before Paul. Although I think a good case can be made for Paul, Matthias was already an apostle before Paul was converted. That is clear from Scripture.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 17, 2004.

I agree that Mattias was counted as #12 by the others and was considered that by the whole church. As a figurehead, that's probably true. As an active agent of Christ, though, I'd say Paul far outshines many of the other 12 as an instrument of God's grace. That doesn't make Paul #12, but it sure makes one realize that the Apostleship of God was not limited to just the original 12 - and that even the remaining 12 could fall into error and had to be corrected by a fellow Apostle.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), November 17, 2004.

Max,

I think you may be judging Matthias too harshly. I'm not so sure he was just a figurehead. We certainly have more writngs from Paul than we do from Matthias (or any of the other apostles for that matter), but that isn't necessarily the yardstick we should judge for Apostles. Luke left a Gospel, but no one claims he was an Apostle. Philip and Andrew were Apostles, but they left no writings, to my knowledge. Just saying don't sell any of the twelve short just because we don't have a lot of writings from them. They all were part of the church when it began and they all went forth to preach the Gospel to the nations. The church owes a lot to ALL of them, whether their writings are in Scripture or not.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 17, 2004.

You're right, Andy. I should do a study about Mattias and see what he accomplished before I draw any definite conclusions. Maybe I'm just too biased and love and favor St. Paul so much I don't give enough consideration to other Apostles' contributions to the Church.

On a different note, being of an extreme Protestant background, I never had a living love for the saints. Lately I've become convinced that, if you do not have affection in your heart for saints such as St. Paul and the Theotokos, that it's likely you're not really much of a God-lover. I came to this conclusion after being filled with love for St. Paul one night and, though I absolutely rejected sending prayers to saints at the time, I felt truly compelled to send a prayer to St. Paul in heaven in order to express gratitude to him for his commitment to Christ and the Church which has thousands of years later, thanks to him, been such a blessing in my life. I think I prayed to God telling Him to tell St Paul "thus and such" so I wouldn't be guilty of "praying to saints." Now I realize that sending a message to a saint in heaven is not wrong. It's a natural expression of love and that "time and space between us" does not make speaking to a loved one sinful. If saints are aware of earthly events and prayers, then of course they can hear us. And if they can't hear us, I'm sure God or angels can deliver our messages. Of course, I don't waste time imploring saints for help in matters where I can just speak directly to the Father, but expressing gratitude to a saint or asking a saint to intercede on our behalf is no longer as bad as I once thought. I can see where some may feel it's idolatry, though, since it seems polytheistic to send prayers to any Spirit other than Almighty God.

Maybe if I studied Mattias my appreciation for him wouldn't be so limited as it is now.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), November 18, 2004.

"it seems polytheistic to send prayers to any Spirit other than Almighty God".

A: The saints are not "Spirits". They are Christian people, human beings just like you and me, living where we hope someday to be living. What possible similarity could there be between seeking the intercessory prayers of other Christians, and polytheism? When those very same saints were alive on earth, fellow Christians asked for their prayers of intercession. Should they stop asking these same Christian people for such prayers, simply because they are now living in a better place?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 18, 2004.

Max,

I wish there was more definitive information about the apostles like Matthias, Andrew (my namesake), and the others. Mainly just tradition has come down to us regarding the lesser known Apostles and their martyrdom.

I didn't mean to make light of the contributions of St. Paul. We certainly know more about St. Paul because of the legacy of Scriptural writings he left us. For that and his ministry I can only thank God and I feel indebted to Paul and all the Apostles for their faithfullness to the Gospel. My faith is a legacy of their love and steadfastness.

I understand what you're saying about being filled with gratitude for the saints like the great St. Paul. There have been times (not often enough) that I have been moved like you to thank them for the sacrifices they made to keep God's word alive and to spread the church. Reading their writings has made a difference in my life. They are not only great role models, but also great teachers (and I believe intercessors for us in Christ). Like Paul M said, they are very much alive in Christ. Much more so than I am.

Also, if not for the martyrs who were willing to die for love of God, I may not have been fortunate enough to have grown up in the Gospel. I think it would be good for Christians to thank God more often for the saints. We certainly have a lot to thank them for. Spreading the kingdom of God in most areas of the world has not been done without the shedding of the blood of martyrs.

What a "cloud of witnesses" we have to thank God for!

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 18, 2004.

When I said I can see where it may seem like polytheism to some, I meant that if one is only accustomed to directing prayer to God alone (that only God is worthy of prayer) then seeing a person direct a prayer to another person other than God seems to "steal glory" from God.

There's a little difference between praying to a saint in heaven and asking a saint on earth for intercession. One cannot sit down and pray to a saint that is living on earth. How do our messages reach the saints in heaven? Who knows? Maybe they are given special powers to know things. All I know is that, if saints are ruling with Christ, then they have certain powers we don't understand.

I admit, I still have issues with long glorifying prayers to Mary and the saints that seem to cross the line from veneration to worship - wherever that line is.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), November 18, 2004.

There really isn't a line there Max, being that those two words are synonyms.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 18, 2004.

Adoration and worship are synonyms. Veneration simply means honor and respect.

Why would someone who claims to believe only what is in the Bible claim that "only God is worthy of prayer"? The Bible says that only God is worthy of worship, which is exactly what His Church teaches and has always taught. But "pray" simply means "to ask". In fact, the Bible uses the phrase "I pray" more than fifty times to describe communications that don't directly involve God. No-one has to be "worthy" of prayer. Why would I have to be "worthy" to have someone ask me a favor? And how could someone asking me to pray for them "steal glory" from God? Or someone asking a saint to do the same?

You say: There's a little difference between praying to a saint in heaven and asking a saint on earth for intercession. One cannot sit down and pray to a saint that is living on earth."

On the contrary, there is really no difference between asking one Christian human being for intercession and asking another. Where they currently reside surely makes no difference. And one can indeed ask ("pray") a fellow Christian on earth for intercession.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 18, 2004.