TC mentioned the brown scapular and I had the blessing of visiting a Carmelite convent today (which was wonderful btw), so I bought one. I have some questions, though.

The Brown Scapular -

1. Are there any good prayers on the internet for this? Are there various prayers or is it all the same?

2. Does anyone find that the promises are a bit excessive? Am I missing something?

3. What is the commitment involved?

4. Must one be a confirmed Catholic before starting this, or is Protestant baptism enough?

Thanks and God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), November 11, 2004

Answers

bump

-- (bump@bump.bump), November 11, 2004.

Emily;

If one faithfully wears the brown scapular and tries to live a good life, Our Lady promises that she will be with that person at their death. A really good friend to have at that time.

If a Protestant waiting to be brought into the Church is sincere, I see no reason why it would not be of help.

Anyway it can't hurt.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), November 11, 2004.

1. Are there any good prayers on the internet for this? Are there various prayers or is it all the same?

There is a prescribed prayer for enrollment in the Scapular. You can find it in the Roman Ritual, or in any number of online sources such as Fatima.org.

2. Does anyone find that the promises are a bit excessive? Am I missing something?

The promises are indeed incredible.

3. What is the commitment involved?

Observe chastity according to your state in life & pray (at least) 5 decades of the Rosary every day. I think there are other details that can be found readily online.

4. Must one be a confirmed Catholic before starting this, or is Protestant baptism enough?

You don't have to be Catholic to wear the Scapular, but you have to be Catholic to enjoy the promises & prilivages of being enrolled in its confraternity.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 12, 2004.

This is quite disturbing.

It sounds like magic or something, and definately borders idolatry to call on an item for good luck or blessings.

I know that when I die--I will be calling out to Jesus--and only Jesus. For the Bible tells us that there is no one else by whom we can be saved.

-- (What is Creation Science?@thinktank.com), November 13, 2004.

It sounds like magic or something, and definately borders idolatry to call on an item for good luck or blessings.

I think you're reading something into the posts that isn't there, my friend. No one said anything about calling on the Brown Scapular for good luck or blessings.

My understanding of the Brown Scapular is that it is all about committing yourself to Christ, rejecting sin, living in charity, continuous prayer, and the promises He keeps for those who do. There is nothing magical about it.

-- Andy S ("ask3322004@yahoo.com"), November 13, 2004.

Dear "Creation Science",

The Brown Scapular is a symbol of one's commitment to serving God. Saying that the brown scapular can save us is like saying that your wedding ring will keep you faithful to your spouse. It's not the item in itself, but the commitment and love that it symbolizes.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), November 13, 2004.

Hmmmm......is it playing with idolatry to wear a wedding ring?

Are there Christians who refuse to wear any medals, crosses, or pins for fear of worshipping those articles?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 13, 2004.

ytes rod, osme Christsin wont wear any jewelry...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 13, 2004.

Right now, I can only think of the Apostolics. They had very strict dress codes. I don't know if they still do.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 14, 2004.

Hello Jake and TC,

Thank you for your help. I have heard various things, like you said that one should pray the rosary, and someone else told me of another prayer. The booklet I bought with the scapular said I should pray the "Little Office of the Blessed Virgin." Do you know what this is? It didn't give me that prayer in the book.

Thanks for the help & God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), November 14, 2004.

Emily,

I remember a discussion on the Tradition Catholic site that jake hosts--where one of the posters was inquiring about these items and he was told that he could put a scapular under the pillow on his unbelieving mother's bed--and it would save her. That sounds like magic to me.

-- (faith01@myway.com), November 14, 2004.

Ok....so, you will be posting as "Faith"? I remember the big deal about multiple usernames. I was against any rules against posting multiple usernames. So, what's the deal now?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2004.

"I remember a discussion on the Tradition Catholic site that jake hosts--where one of the posters was inquiring about these items and he was told that he could put a scapular under the pillow on his unbelieving mother's bed--and it would save her. That sounds like magic to me. "

A: If that actually is what that poster said, and not just your interpretation of his words, then that poster apparently lacked full understanding of the role of sacramentals in the Christian faith. On the other hand, what is your take on the following passage ...

" ... God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them." (Acts 19:11-12)

Magic??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 15, 2004.

Thank you for remeinding me about that verse Paul,

Because that was the verse they used to support their idea. I was appauled that they thought they could garantee someone entrance into heaven with this scapular just by putting it under the pillow. But i understood them completely.

As far as Paul having that kind of power--I don't doubt it. I know God used His apostles to display many miracles. This affirmed them as being apostles of God and worthy of our listening to. This, I believe, was limited to the apostolic age.

-- (faith01@myway.com), November 15, 2004.

"This, I believe, was limited to the apostolic age. "

Faith, tell me, just where is that written in the Bible?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 15, 2004.

Where what is written Ian?

Where is it written that objects can no longer be used to save someone against their will? I don't think you'll find that it is ever written that this can be done.

But performing miracles by the apostles was done to convince the people that they were of God. It is how we determine whether a book or letter is the Word of God. It is how we also recognized a prophet. His prophecy must come to fruition, as we see bear out from the Old Testament.

Now that the Word of God and His revelation is complete--what would be the reason for such performances?

The Bible is clear that it requires faith in order to receive Christ. So how would a scapular save someone without their approval?

-- (faith01@myway.com), November 15, 2004.

Faith,

Once again you are confusing issues. You made a claim that the power of a sacred instrument to provide healing is limited to the apostolic age. Ian wanted scriptural support for this idea. A reasonable request.

Nobody here is claiming that by putting a scapular under someone's pillow you will guarantee their salvation. I refer you to Paul's not above.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), November 15, 2004.

The miracles were designed to teach the believer in the reality of Salvation. It was the power of God to show evidence of His gift of Salvation.

Faith, you were given an exact article by Ian for you to show Scriptural proof of your assertation. You obviously did a little tap-dance around it. Please!

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2004.

As well as I know God's Word--I can't always remember where everything is. I just assume it should ring a bell with you. But then again, maybe you don't know your Bible as well as you should!

I am realy busy and sharing my computer with two kids who battle for their time on their "messenger buddy system" or whatever ya call it!

I will try to find time to look for Scripture both to show that the purpose of propecy is so that we would know that the Scriptures are His Word.., and that God created everything with man at the center of His plan.

-- (faith01@myway.com), November 15, 2004.

"But then again, maybe you don't know your Bible as well as you should! "--Faith.

Perhaps he knows it better than you, Faith. Was that a challenge or another one of those remarks of yours? We can do without those little comments.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2004.

Ah, but rod,

We have to remember, there are two sets of rules here. Anything that Faith asserts is to be accepted ex cathedra. On the other hand, if a Catholic asserts something, it must be proven to Faith's complete satisfaction. Something which I don't think has ever happened.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), November 16, 2004.

Yup!

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Uh, rod--

That comment was made with you in mind. I can observe what ever I want to observe and I can comment on it. It is obvious to me that you do not study the Scriptures all that much!

-- (faith01@myway.com), November 16, 2004.

Faith says:

"I can observe what ever I want to observe and I can comment on it."

Faith, you seem to place a high value on your rights. You get to comment any way you wish, and of course it doesn't matter whether it is insulting or not. If you are pressed for evidence, you claim you don't need to produce any evidence.

My question to you is: Is this what faith in Jesus Christ is all about for you? Your rights? It would seem to me that in living the Christian life, my rights are the least important of all. Look what Jesus did: He forgave people who didn't even ask for his forgiveness!

The question you really need to ask yourself is whether you are more interested in being a good witness for your faith, or whether you are making yourself feel good by siting in judgement of everyone. After all, you say that it is by your fruits that we are to know that you are really saved. the fruits of the spirit are: love; joy; peace; patience; kindness; goodness; faithfulness; gentleness; self-control.

It is not a bad idea to meditate on these every once in a while.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), November 16, 2004.

Ha! It is obvious to us that you don't understand what you have read, Faith. Who is more lost? One with an ounce of understanding in what tons they have read or one with tons of understanding in the ounce they've read?

What seems obvious to you is all in your mind. So, when you think us wrong, it is only an illusion that you have created as evident in your interpretive suggestions. I would not say this until you push me into putting you in your proper place. This post is intended for you.

Play nice and don't go dissing my alleged inferiority of learning. That only makes you arrogant. We don't want you arrogant, Faith.

Yet, another example of your little comments, Faith.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Stop with your little jabs of arrogance while you're still behind; you may still manage to catch up.

Your jabs leave a sour taste in my thoughts. So, stop. How in the world do you expect to bring people closer to the "light" when they get turned off to your style of ministry? There isn't a need for those jabs. You are a turn off to me when you get like that. Stop.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

If you are simply looking for a fight, I'll simply exit the ring. I don't want to fight you; it will solve nothing. Winning is simply not even part of the equation because winning would only mean losing. Why should we waste our lives in such a stupid thing? It is much better just to walk away and leave you standing in your shadow.

Let the next person stand in the ring. Later, Faith. Vaya con Dios.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

[You may need to email your question instead.]

-- dor (Ftbxtl5k2djj@m5sk..), November 16, 2004.