paganism... religion... you pick...

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paganism? why are you so worried? statistics show that christianity, while being the largest religion, still comprises only 30%... which means 70% of the world have other beliefs.

you would be very naive if you thought that paganism ever left, it is no more prevalent now than before.

i find it quite insignificant which religion you belong to... we spend our lives thinking and worrying about the same things as our ancestors... we are so afraid of death that we forget to live. not knowing what death entails is like not knowing life before birth. i dont remember before i was born; death is just a phase.

another thing, if anyone cares to comment... i don't understand how any holy book can be taken as truth. the qu'ran, the bible, the torah, all written by men, not the divine. i think we can agree that man is by no means selfless, and by the act of writing these scriptures he can not avoid inputting selfish interests.

~ao

-- ao (esq_rd@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004

Answers

paganism? why are you so worried? statistics show that christianity, while being the largest religion, still comprises only 30%... which means 70% of the world have other beliefs.

{}{Who said we where worried?}-Zarove

you would be very naive if you thought that paganism ever left, it is no more prevalent now than before.

{Whoever siad it left?}-Zarove

i find it quite insignificant which religion you belong to...

{Then why coem here to slam us and our faith?}-Zarove

we spend our lives thinking and worrying about the same things as our ancestors...

{And vanity of anities, all is vanity, and chasign the wind...}-Zarove

we are so afraid of death that we forget to live.

{Which is why Im Christain, tis a faith for the living, not the dead...}-Zarove

not knowing what death entails is like not knowing life before birth. i dont remember before i was born; death is just a phase.

{which is relevant how?}-Zarove

another thing, if anyone cares to comment...

{I am, but just because you left this in a thread wher it didnt relaly connec tot he reality of the threads topic...}-Zarove

i don't understand how any holy book can be taken as truth.

{Same way as any other book, read it and compar eit to relaity. The Bibel, for instance, demands we test its claims this way...}-Zarove

the qu'ran, the bible, the torah, all written by men, not the divine.

{At leats you say this, but can you prove it?}-Zarove

i think we can agree that man is by no means selfless, and by the act of writing these scriptures he can not avoid inputting selfish interests.

{I think your worng. Not only is man capable of sleflessness, and not ony can mans written word surpass his reality, but the sciroteus where given by Insoiration. dont bother askign me ot prove it though, since you didnt do anyhign tu pontificate, so can I.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.


Ao, the difference between Christians and pagans is that Christians are NOT afraid of death. Christ has conquered death.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 11, 2004.

i totally agree with everything you said here ao

finally someone that understands!

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.


""Ao, the difference between Christians and pagans is that Christians are NOT afraid of death. Christ has conquered death. ""

who ever said that we were afraid of the death?

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.


No, the question has always been: what is true? A billion people believe that Mohammed really did receive a relevation from God via an angel and that therefore what he said in the Koran was true and God's final message to humanity. A Billion people really believe the Hindu gods exist (all 800 million of them) and a billion more believe the HIndu prince, who while not disbelieving the hindu idea of reincarnation, sought a way out via philosophy (Buddhism). About 2 billion people are Christians - they believe the Jewish prophets and theology and see that the Messiah of the Jews is really the savior of all people, not just the jews....

So that leaves only about 1 billion non-believers - mostly of them Chinese or other Asians suffering under communism.

Real honest to goodness pagans number perhaps in the low millions. But even they have to answer the fundamental question: is it true? do multiple gods exist in Valhalla or Olympus? If so, how do we know? How do they communicate their existence to us? etc.

We can't just take some guy's word for it - there are criteria of credibility for all religions, indeed that's how most people judge any news story or claim of science which they don't have direct info on...

And frankly, the early Christians dealt at length with the best pagan minds in history and concluded that while angelic beings certainly exist, they aren't "gods" and thus, shouldn't be worshipped.

So we arrive at monotheism and which monotheist religion has a better basis for its claim on truth: Judaism has the miracles and message of Moses and the prophets as well as their survival as a people to point to... Christians have the miracles and saints and survival of the Church to point to. Islam has only the sword - no miracles, no saints, no record of survival in adverse conditions.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 12, 2004.



it does not mean if christiany and judaism are more credible than the other religions that they are true

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

If something is more believable than another thing, then chances are, it IS more likely to be true!

Let's say the topic is the sinking of the Titanic. Lots of eyewitnesses claimed to have seen an Iceberg. But days later the berg was not seen... but most people believe the eyewitnesses and don't believe an evil German submarine sank the luxury liner in preparation for world war 1.

Now, the Jews had eye witnesses to the events of Exodus and other miraculous events subsequent to that. The early Christians were witnesses of miracles - and many more throughout the centuries. But how many pagans have actually seen a god?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 12, 2004.


Real honest to goodness pagans number perhaps in the low millions. But even they have to answer the fundamental question: is it true? do multiple gods exist in Valhalla or Olympus? If so, how do we know? How do they communicate their existence to us? etc.

The problem is Joe...most NeoPagans dtn beelive in their gods.They jist rpefer the stories and fele rebelleous by beign pagan...

They piddle with archtypes and whatever suits them, and don CARE hats true... the only rle for most of them is so long as it snot christain, you can do it...

I know., I use ot tlak to a lo of Pagans, and they dotn liek the idea of absolute truth ( which is the basis of sicnetific investigation and all forms of logic and raitonality) and isnetad think you can worship whatever you want and its all the same...except the Christain "god" who is obviously wrong...

There are few seriosu Pagans...numberign in the low thousands, the rest are fluffybunnies who like Paganism as it lets them do as they want...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 12, 2004.


on the subject of paganism...can it be considered a religion? you refer to paganism as a different subject from religion. but paganism has gods as well, and beliefs. also, id like to say something about what some of these people said about Christianity. they say that only some people take paganism seriously, and the rest of them are "fluffybunnies" who join this religion just because they can have "fun rebelling". but you can also say that only a few Christians are truly "Christian", while others just become so for salvation because they are afraid of hell. i guess i'm getting the feeling that some people here are thinking along the lines of "paganism is not a religion, Christianity is." but that sort of translates to me that, "Christianity is the only -true- religion." because other religions are not the same as Christianity.

isnt religion all about belief?...what -is- religion about? is it just "something that people base their lives on something totally immoral to have faith and motivation"?

also, im not meaning to "tread on any religions' toes", as my english teacher loves to say in our controversial discussions in class. id just like everyone's opinions!

so what do you guys think?

-- cat (cat_tie1988@hotmail.com), November 26, 2004.


um, to zarove:

ao said that the bible was written by men. you said in response, "at least you say that, but is it true?" (im not sure about the wording but im pretty sure it went something alone those lines). i think that both of you are right: i think that mankind wrote it, but maybe they got these messages from someone supernatural.

i dont know...even in the old testament moses, who was a messenger of god but still mortal, wrote the ten commandments.

ill write more later, class just ended!

-- cat (cat_tie1988@hotmail.com), November 26, 2004.



on the subject of paganism...can it be considered a religion?

{iTIS A RELIGION... THE OPENER OF THE THREAD MADE AN AMBIGOUS TITLE, THATS ALL...}-Zarove

you refer to paganism as a different subject from religion.

{No, we didnt... I think you malunderstand the thread, which aint surprising sicne you malundestand Christainity and demogrpajics.}- Zarove

but paganism has gods as well, and beliefs.

{Which makes it a religion.}-Zarove

also, id like to say something about what some of these people said about Christianity. they say that only some people take paganism seriously, and the rest of them are "fluffybunnies" who join this religion just because they can have "fun rebelling".

{"Some" is me... and ase this on both extensiv personal experunce and standard Demogrpahics. Few Pagans over the age of 35, and not a heck of a lot more between the ages of 30 and 35. Most are between the ages of 15 and 25, and this after a decade or so of it beign popularised in High Schools. its usually dropped by older, more mature minds.}-Zarove

but you can also say that only a few Christians are truly "Christian", while others just become so for salvation because they are afraid of hell.

{Woudln joinign or fear of Hell, though not the most noble of reasons, likewise mean they beleive in Heaven abd Hell?

When I said most where fluffies, I didnt men they beleived in the Goddess and all the other dieties, but joiend to be cool, I meant they joiend ot be cool nad pick and choose what they think sounds cool to do as far as rituals and wearign weird costumes and freakign peopel out. Moist pagans are quiet up fnt if asked that they dont actually Beleive in there gods... They ar eied as Archtypes. If asked why they worship the oens they do, its because they liked them.G on, ask them.}-Zarove

i guess i'm getting the feeling that some people here are thinking along the lines of "paganism is not a religion, Christianity is."

{The line of thought is actually more along the liens of " Most pagans arent interested in real theology and are just rebellious youign people. Christinity however has a much stirnger root and many devout beleivers." coupeld with " Paganisms vlaues are counterprodctive and do not lead to any known benefit and usually generate selfish feelings." No oen said it asnt a religion.}-Zarove

but that sort of translates to me that, "Christianity is the only - true- religion."

{ And this surprises you? Most peopel arudn here think it is, as Unpopular a notion as that sounds. The whole " All religions are equellly true" relativity is abjet nonsence. If two religiosn conradict, they cant BOTH be true. Both can be false, but both cant be true. As an example, Paganism traches a purality of gods, Chrisyainity teches that only one exists, these are oposing facts. They cant both be true. Both can be false ( Ateism may be right you know), but both cannot be true. Since most here are dedicated Christains, they will reject Po;lyhteism and call it wrong, and not just wrogn for threm in there truth, but wrong in relaity. everyones relaity. rater they like it or not.

Thats because truth isnt relative, and be we right or wrong on this mater, the fac tthat truth is NOT relative is Universal constant that any but a fool woidl acjnowledge.

Now I am for grantign fredom of beelif and expression of said bleif, btu I am not gpign to compromise my own beleifs to be Politiclaly correct.}-Zarove

because other religions are not the same as Christianity.

{No, its beleived they arent true because they teach different things besides Christainity, and two conflictign facts cannot simultaneously be true.

Again, if one religion teaches multiple gods exist and can be worshipped, and the other states ther is no god but Allah, these two beleifs are mutually exclusive and cannot both be right, however, tey can both be wrong. ( As I said, Atheist may be right.)

If Athesm is true, for instance, then both Paganism and Christainity are wrogn on these points.

However, most here beleive christainity to be true, and not merley there personal truth, btu actually true in relaity. Thus, if other religiosn disagree with Christainity, it is maintained that they are simpley wrong.

its no more bigoted to say this, nor is it just that they ar different, than syaing peopel who beleive the sun revovles aroufn thr eaeth are wrogn is.}-Zarove

isnt religion all about belief?...

{Not exaclty. religion is about teachign mora, codes from sources considered sacred. beleif is an element, but not the totality.}-Zarove

what -is- religion about?

{Mainly abotu personal spiritual growth and comunion with higher powers, unless said religion denies higher powers such as Buddhism or secular umanism.Then its abotu communion with onesself and nature.}- Zarove

is it just "something that people base their lives on something totally immoral to have faith and motivation"?

{Sort of, it is what peopel base there lives aroudn to give it guidance... but I doubt you will undertsand.}-Zarove

also, im not meaning to "tread on any religions' toes", as my english teacher loves to say in our controversial discussions in class. id just like everyone's opinions!

{Opinions are cheap, just chech the facts...}-Zarove

so what do you guys think?

{I think you need to learn a lot laddie.( Or is it Lassie?)}-Zarove

-- cat (cat_tie1988@hotmail.com), November 26, 2004.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

um, to zarove: ao said that the bible was written by men. you said in response, "at least you say that, but is it true?" (im not sure about the wording but im pretty sure it went something alone those lines). i think that both of you are right: i think that mankind wrote it, but maybe they got these messages from someone supernatural.

{The queatsion is, befofre you make an affirmative statement, can you prove it? Chrisaisn makign affirmative statements on a Christain board is acceptable since it is a haven form them. This is a Catholic board thereore peakign int he affirmative here is perfectly legetamate for Catholics. However, to make an affermative opposed to Catholic tehcign is considered rude, sicne it was not presented in a polite way but a a ehavy handed attack. Not everyone who attakcs religion is open mined, and not all Christaisn losed minded, as portrayed on media sources, and as you can tell, this isnt relalyt he palce to blast christaisn beleifs.

Likewise, this thread origionated as a responce to a thread I opeded about agan worhsip in a Cristain chruch. wich AI seemed ot think was OK since Paganism ahad exosted for a logn time. its not OK however to falely claim to be Chridyain then to blaspheme the God you are said to serve.}-Zarove

i dont know...even in the old testament moses, who was a messenger of god but still mortal, wrote the ten commandments.

{No, G-D wrote the 10 Commandments ersonally and delevered them to Moses, this si why the Torah is considered so sacred, because it was personaly delivered to Moses and is the direct word of G-d, uncontested by any in the Jewish Faith.}-Zarove

ill write more later, class just ended!

{OK, bye.}

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 26, 2004.


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