I don't know how in the loop anyone here has been during and after the "election", but I have been very much in the loop, being on an election committee for a state rep candidate.

Intuitively, it seemed strange that the election went to Bush, since the media, and even Bush's campaign chief, were saying that Bush was losing by a substantial margin.

Then. strangely, the pendulum swung to bush, more or less at the last minute.

I was immediately suspicious, being a suspicious fellow, but also because I'd been forecasting for some time that Kerry had it won, if only there were no voter fraud.

The voting fraud has now been proven, to my satisfaction, at least. I've been told to "get over it", "oh, baloney", etc. by almost all my friends. However, now i'm regaining some of my lost credibility, because more and more pundits are joining in on the issue.

Also, a group of Congressmen have joined in, calling for a GAO investigation.

I also was sent a copy of the official Cuyahuga County, Ohio voting synopsis. Although most precincts reported about fifty to sixty percent of eliglible voters having cast a ballot, t here are LOTS of districts which have unresonable counts, e.g. 90 percent voter turnout.

Furthermore, there are about thirty or so precincts whose counts are not only unreasonable, but impossible. These counties are reporting vote counts in excess-often FAR in excess-of he total number of registered voters.

I will post a couple of urls, below, which are linked to a Randi Rhodes site. Don't be sceptical; these are real urls. I've confirmed the data at several other locations.

I got to the Randirhoads site by a circuitous route, but here it is: http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html

Go to the actual site, and click on MUST SEE PDF LETTER FROM HOUSE DEMOCRATS ON THE JUDICIARY REGARDING VOTING IRREGULARITIES   Then click on http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/results/currentresults1.htm

  You will be amazed.

I can’t tell if the cuyahoga county data really is as far off as they say here, without printig it out, and comparing the registered voters with the nuber of voters, (by laying the pages out side by side) without spending way more time than I want scanning up and down thru all the precincts.

FLASH: I have correlated about 90% of the data, and will finish after breakfast. There are, indeed, lots of impossible data at this site, which is the official Cuyahoga County website.

hang in there, and, if you really want to do some good, go to blackboxvoting.org Read up on the issues, and maybe make a small contribution of time or money.

Blackboxvoting.org has become so popular that they exceeded their bandwidth allowance, and are currently down, but are expected to come back up sometime later today, I hope.

JOJ

PS: if anyone cares, I can give you a list of which actual precincts exceeded 100% voter turnout, which will make it easier for you to interpret the data at the Cuyahoga site.

-- Anonymous, November 10, 2004

Answers

Hi JOJ,

So good to hear from you! Earthmama has pointed out the BlackBox voting site recently (see other thread), too. Guess I'll have to spend some time there....your accounting sounds scary.

Hope you can stick around for a while. Keep us posted!

-- Anonymous, November 10, 2004

I saw a piece on the news that addressed some of the higher figures and attributed some of it to provisional ballots.

As far as the media situation, many republicans went "gunning" for the media during this election. I recieved 6 telephone poll calls from both parties and our local media. I also participated on online and "man in the street" polls with our local news and was interviewed by a news crew on exit from the poll at our precinct. I responded to all these media and party polls that I was voting for Kerry even though I voted to re-elect President Bush. Many of us felt that it was improper how the liberal media was skewing their reports so we did our little part to preskew the figures they chose to bias to their view anyway. Perhaps in the next election the media will try to skew the data to their position less . After the prediction fiasco of 2000 , they chilled out on that this election. Maybe in 2008 they will be more to center and respect the privacy of the ballot booth .

-- Anonymous, November 11, 2004

So if one thinks that it is "improper" that the media is 'skewing their reports,' one displays those superior ethics by lying to pollsters. Very well then. Is that the same line of reasoning that believes in killing people to show that killing people is wrong?

As to your tired reference to the "liberal media," it is covered well in this article:

The Price of the Liberal Media Myth

Good to see ya here, Joe! Geez I wish you'd come around more often! Keep up the good fight.......but what the heck happened to Oregon?? I know it's entirely possible the election was rigged bigtime, but Oregon has a totally different system, all mail-in votes, or is that not right? I too sickened by the dems shut-up-and-get-over-it attitude! If there is big-time fraud going on, wouldn't decent people of any party want to know? Why does it seem like the majority of people are dishonest nowadays? The oh-so-religious country seems to have not done a very good job of embedding basic ethics and REAL morality into its citizens, while they babble on about non-issues like gay marriage, most people appear to be busy cheating on things that really do matter, lying, stealing, and making excuses for it.

-- Anonymous, November 11, 2004

I messed up that link, I'll try again:

The Price of the Liberal Media Myth

-- Anonymous, November 11, 2004

Hey JOJ; nice to see you around! Thanks for the info.

Well heck EM; if I'da voted for GWB, I woulda lied about it too!

-- Anonymous, November 11, 2004

We just did our part to make our local media and their trite leftist spew appear just as biased as they really were. Those who really knew me knew who I was supporting from the start. The media should refrain from attempts to influence and simply report.

-- Anonymous, November 11, 2004

Jay, I may consider that the press should just report the news (although I doubt that would ever happen). But I cannot figure out why folks still think the media is "liberal". I can't turn on teevee or radio without being nearly assaulted by all the right-wing talkmeisters. And yeah, there's still liberal newspapers (like who reads newspapers anymore besides me? I get 2 daily), and maybe NPR is a bit on the liberal side, but I dunno. FOX hardly seems liberal to me! As for the nutwerks, Mike Wallace and all those old geezers are just a bunch of windbags. You could hardly think they would have any influence...no matter what their position.

-- Anonymous, November 11, 2004

CBS, NBC, ABC and Fox are all leftist pukes. While CBN is to the right, Pat is as spooky as Micheal Moore. Those two mixed would be like a degraded matter / antimatter generator. I prefer Barrons or WSJ for my media take.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2004

Of course those networks are owned by print media which is even lower stature than they are. Of course the leftist media serves a purpose as they employ those who cant find work in state funded educational and mental health indoctrination programs and other liberally polarized fields. I just refrain from relying on them for any meaningful information.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2004

I've been fighting despair and depression this week; actually spent all last weekend in bed under the covers, except to visit the loo. Our new satellite tv has Free Speech TV, and in addition to all the other political stuff I'm addicted to, I now have a new one. It doesnt help my mood, that's for sure.

Seeing all the crap going on in the world, all the incalculable suffering, much of which is generated by my government, is horribly devastating. I know I have to accept that which I cannot change, truly believe that everything happens just as it should, but oh god is it painful to watch sometimes.

To step back and watch history repeating itself once again, to see a mass of otherwise decent and intelligent people hypnotized and terrified by liars and powermongers, to witness what seems the inevitable collapse of the powerful country I call home. Sometimes it's all too much, ya know?

The profound failure of the 'fourth estate' (the press) in recent years is the primary villain in this tragedy. If the media were doing the job it has through the ages taken as a badge of honor, there would be no possibility that George Bush would be in the White House in the first place,and instead of filling a second term, he would be behind bars for his myriad treasonous crimes. The media is really the only thing we have to protect us as a people from a corrupt and overreaching government, to tell us the truth when they give us nothing but lies, to be the strength we need to make certain we are indeed a government of, by and for the people.

In order to stop joining the 'red vs blue' mentality, and to keep myself from despairing, I have to constantly remind myself that the people just do not know the truth. The truth has been hidden from them by American media to a criminal degree, and they are ignorant and haven't the time or energy to find it on their own,which indeed they shouldn't have to expend if the press were doing the job it is there to do. Americans for the most part seem completly baffled by the fact the the world hates George Bush, and have no idea that every study I have read fears him more than Bin Laden.

So back to work; I am sad but re-energized. A friend lectured me against the idea of going to Canada,and set me right, at least for now. He reminded me of all the poor in this country,whose numbers are growing and will continue to do so in the next many years, and how they don't have the option to leave. To run away is to abandon them, which is no better than what the government is doing to them, and we must all stay and fight for their right to justice and equality.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2004

Well, let's see how it plays out in the Ukraine. I'm really watching this one closely, especially about the electronic voting fraud. BBC had a great report on in the middle of the night. Four insiders from the electronic voting team refuse to endorse the results as they are fraudulent. Guess the Russians are massing a bit on their border, too. Hope they can resolve this peacefully. Some people on the planet actually take their voting seriously and are willing to fight for it.

knock knock...

wake up neo

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2004

Jay says "Maybe in 2008 they will be more to center and respect the privacy of the ballot booth . " What a riot! I guess he'd probably be ok with deliberate miscounts of the votes, too; after all, vote counting is as disrespectful of the privacy of the voting booth as exit polls are. Both are counting votes, and both are anonymous.

EM said, "but what the heck happened to Oregon?" EM, what do you mean? Oregon, I'm happy to say, had the most amazing grass roots efforts all over the state. In Josephine County, for instance, Democratic meetings, which formerly have always totalled three or four people, just kept growing and growing. We even had to move our meeting place because the grange we were meeting at only held one hundred people. We had a few meetings with around 150 people. Plus, everyone was incredibly energized!

I manned the Demo HQ occassionally, and it was non stop visitors. We had to have three people on each shift, just to give out yard signs and buttons, and to discuss issues with all the drop ins. This in a county of only 75,000 people and a big Republican majority!

Oregon did go for Kerry, and my favorite Congressman, Peter DeFazio, got reelected (as usual. His base is mostly north of here in more educated, more progressive Lane County)

On the other hand, we lost ALL local elections. My man-Kevin Marr-did very very well, though, considering our lack of funding, his new arrival on the political scene, and his "good ol' boy" opponent, who has lived here since 1950, is a retired dentist, and former city councilman and Mayor. Keving got about a third of the votes. Not great, but not bad for his first venture.

Which brings up another issue: Polly says, "Well heck EM; if I'da voted for GWB, I woulda lied about it too! " Here in JOCO, up until this year, people were actually AFRAID to admit that they were DEMOCRATS. Literally afraid. But this year, there is so much animosity against GW Busch, it's as though they have come out of the closet; they are acting like PROUD DEMOCRATS!

(bythewaydon'ttellanybody,butI'mactuallyaGREEN)

Sheepish, "liberal media" is almost an Oxymoron. Maybe they used to be liberal, but they are all getting bought up by Clear Channel and other big Neocon orgs. By the way, you're mispelling FAUX News :) Amazing that Mr. "don't influence the news" Blair thinks FAUX is LIBERAL!!!! He's just about wacky enough to get a job there as an "investigative reporter! ROTFLMAO!

EM, sorry to hear about your depression. I've been fighting it, too. I too have considered Canada, and have also considered Mexico, since I love Latin America in general, and am not big on real cold or real hot weather (have located a land of "eternal spring" in Mexico..)

I agree with your friend on some levels (about abandoning the poor here). On the other hand, there are even more poor in Mexico, and they need help even worse than the US Folk.

On the OTHER hand, I have been an active player in my community for a long time, have lived here for 29 years, know "everybody", and live on my dream property, and don't want to relocate.

So many choice. I'll most likely stay here, and try to focus more on local politics, where I have actually been fairly successful in some issues.

But it's sure hard to stay in a country where more or less half the people support the mess in WA, regardless of whether it's their media promoted ignorance. I mean, why do folks in virtually every other country in the world see the truth, but not the US? I just don't get it.

Onward. JOJ

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2004

Hiya Joe (your name isn't really joe, or is it? :) Always so glad to see ya!

I guess I said the Oregon thing cuz back then wasn't it too close to call, and was lookin to go ......ummm, forgive me, red? Glad to hear things aren't so bad after all out there. I know I'm always surprised when I hear righties doin weird things in Oregon, even though my brain knows there is a strong right wing community within the state, I know so many folks in Oregon who are pretty much socialists that I forget how mixed it is, and am surprised all over again! Brain cells dwindling?

David Sirota had a good article in The American Prospect The Democrats’ Da Vinci Code (there's another good one too, but I can't seem to place who/where it was) that outlines lots of the good stuff that happened all over the country this election that the regular media hardly touched on. I'm pretty sure he included your DeFazio in his analysis. It's amazing what a different picture one gets when one is exposed to all the stats, not just the ones "they" want us to see. Perhaps it's not so hopeless after all? Anyway, we must cling to some hope, cuz without hope we risk losing our will to live, much less fight.

The scariest article I've read lately was written by one of my favorite human beings, the wonderful Bill Moyers. It describes very well how the twisted minds running things or influencing those who do these days think, (remarkable in and of itself, considering how psychotic these folks sound!) especially about enviromental issues. Read it when you feel strong, he knows his stuff; Battlefield Earth

or let it make you mad enough to get up and do something about the religio-nutsos out there. There really are very few of them, they just shout so loud and garner all the attention. They need to be exposed for the mental cases that they are, over and over and over again, and Bill Moyers, who is an ordained Baptist minister so understands where they come from, is just the guy to get us started.

Sheepish, remember when I told you guys, back when we bought our building, that we thought it an omen that there is a church at the opposite corner on our block that had a special outreach to the gay community? Well, guess what kind it is? ;) The church building itself isn't much to look at, just a drab cinderblock building very like ours, but they have the most fantastic gardens planted in the front and on the boulevard! Course it's all dead now but all spring, summer and fall, they were gorgeous!

We have a corner too, but almost every square inch is concrete or asphalt. Besides the boulevard, there is only a strip in front about 20'x2'with a few straggly mulberry trees, and another on the side about 6' x2'. I often thought about planting something lovely there, but I just imagine the night-of-the-living-dead folks who come out after dark would probably wreck it in no time, (just peein' on it, which they do alot of, believe me, might do it in) if indeed it is even possible to dig next to the building. Could be the foundation would make it impossible.

Ciao,

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2004

Hey, EM, (Your name's not really Earth Mama, is it?) My name's not Jumpoff Joe, either. I live in Jumpoff Joe Valley, and got the name when I was chairman of the JOJ Citizens Advisory Committee.

Like many states, I'm told, there is a split between conservative rurals and progressive urbanites. This definitely holds true in Oregon, with the exception of some of us "counter culture, back to the land" types. The back to the land (aka "hippy") movement started here a little after it did in California, where most Oregonians seem to have migrated from, and where many, many Californicators are still immigrating from, alas--we don't have the resources to support all the new people for much longer.

Thanks for the two articles, which i'll likely read tomorrow; since it's my night to cook (like, almost every night, since mama's still working for a couple or three more years.) and she'd due home soon.

good talkin to ya!

JOJ

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2004

Hey Joe.....(why does my brain now say....."where you goin' with that gun in your hand?...) :)

Well by golly yes indeed my name is Earthmama; I'll just this night scan and send along a copy of my birth certificate from the states of Nirvana AND Minnesota if you would be so kind as to send me your actual real and authentic email address. My email address listed on this forum, is btw, real and gen-u-wine, as it has been since I first signed up some years ago. :)

To pick on you some more, I was tickled that you found it necessary (in typical liberal male manner :)) to point out that not only were you cooking tonite, but that you had to give an excuse for it! Why your woman wasn't doin her thang, lest anyone should wonder about you! ;0)

Just jabbin you in the ribs, dear joe; how I wish we could all get together sometime for real! And we could have a meal to remember! I'll make dessert!

Anybody read "The trouble With Kansas"?

It explains very well why and how the righties skewed this election, and the tenor of the country, by deceit and division, and what can be learned from it.

Polly said somewhere back, something like " when was it that rural folks stopped reading?"

Interesting subject, on its own. I think it has something to do with talkradio,and the dearth of alternate views. But I also suspect that the divisions may not be so stark when people are presented with the truth. I think hardly ANY rural folks are exposed to anything remotely related to alternative viewpoints,considering that rural folks listen to lots of radio, and the airwaves are awash in rightie blowblab such as Limbaugh, day in day out,because there is no alternative view, and after awhile, they begin to become programmed to the repeated lies,having no one to offer intelligent arguement.

Come back more often, joe!

-- Anonymous, December 09, 2004

Random thoughts from me, somewhat related. I surely hope that our election procdure get a thorough overhaul, but it didn't happen after the 2000 election, so why would it now? The sum total of the rise of the fascists and the assaults on American liberties has me in a blue funk (ha, a pun, though not very funny) most the time.

Today, out of the blue (ANOTHER pun), it came to me . . . it's not the Republican Party, it's the Repressionist Party (with a large Oppressionist contingency too, plus the Robber Baron wing). I intend to call them that from now on.

Also, on a (proudly) liberal forum, this definition was posted.

"Sociopath: Lack of empathy, lack of emotion, no feeling towards death or pain in others". Sound like anyone you know?

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2004

I hear ya, Joy; yes indeedy,it certainly does.

We must not despair, cuz then they win, and if that happens, we all lose, forever. Keep yer chin up and proud, and let's find happiness wherever we can. Life is too short to be miserable, eh?

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2004

Hey, EM (if your "real name" is "really" earthmama, then is your "whole real name" E.M Earthmama? heh.

thanks again for the aritcle The Democrats’ Da Vinci Code. It's a good rebuttal to the article I was sent yesterday calling for the excommunication of the "soft liberals" and "dough-faced feminists" from the Democratic Party. If not, the article says, the Republicans will stay in power for at least a generation.

Basically, to put a VERY long article in a nutshell, this article supports the neoconisation of the Democratic Party. to me, this is analagous to destroying the US's liberties, via the Patriot act, the dept. of Homeland Security, and the Intelligence Reform Act, in order to save ourselves from repressive al Qaidans.

Battlefield Earth touches on a theme I've adopted for qutie a long time: So many of us Earthlings have such a limited intelligence, and such an egotistic outlook on things that it is nearly a tautology that we're destined to shit our own nest, to the extent that, sooner or later, we'll exceed the planet's carrying capacity, or a single element of its carrying capacity, with disastrous results.

Many other folks have expressed this idea. The first I was aware of was Paul Ehrlich, back in the late 60's.

Ehrlich, unfortunately, thought he could predict when "the end" was coming, and earned the ridicule of all the power players who prefer not to look to the future, but to continue exploiting both Mother Earth, and all her inhabitants, regardless of outcome.

Ehrlich's temporal predictions were proved wrong, of course, but his basic premise is unarguable: we live on a finite planet, and infinite growth is impossible on a finite planet.

Ehrlich did not consider the future expansion of Earth's civilization to other planets. This is of course possible, but not likely to be feasible with any techology which is likely to be developed before catastrophy strikes.

Besides, why bother interplanetary exploitation, when it is so simple (on a physical level, anyway) to plan on some firm maximum population for "spaceship earth"?

Of course, if George Bush's (and as Bill Moyers points out) James Watt's dreams come to fruition, none of the carrying capacity issues carry any weight, as all the "good guys" are about to Rhapsodize themselves into Jesus's arms before we reach terminal environmental exploitation. Oh, boy; I can hardly wait!

Moyers's recitation of the difficulties of reporting on the serious problems we face, without alienating (and losing) the folks who need most to be awakened, is most interesting. Thanks for the articles.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2004

Forgot to mention, EM: I am so impressed by Moyers's article, and feel so strongly that those of us who do NOT want to destroy the environment in the bizarre belief that we're hurrying along the story of Revelations, need to act, act now, and act strongly to educate each other to what is happening. Whether we can overcome the religious zealots described by Moyers is debatable, but we need to try.

Your diatribal poke to my ribs was pretty funny. nevertheless, i have to defend myself. YOu're right that i needed to brag about my being the chief cook and bottle washer; many of my male friends, even the liberal ones, don't cook or wash dishes.

I did not need an excuse, though; my hon and I generally USED TO share in the dinnertime ritual; one would cook, the other would clean up. Since I've retired (kinda; I just worked my little butt off for six months buiding a rental house) I've pretty much taken over all the kitchen duties. this should be bad news to all concerned, as I'm not the best cook in the house, but oh, well.

I also continue to do all the "man things" which my liberal female friends-almost without exception-refuse to do, e.g. cut firewood, stoke the home fires, do all the heavy outdoor work, check the house for burglars when the female half "hear noises" in the night, take out the compost, etc. I could go on, but won't, as it will likely just give you more ammunition for your ribbing.

Ah, life is great!

Joy, here's a quotation I think you'll like, by the imitable Garrison Keiler:

Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we're deaf, dumb and dangerous.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2004

Refreshing to know you do your share around the house, Joe! And as to your not being the best cook, I doubt anyone minds. It's awfully nice to have someone else cook for ya; I always think the food tastes better! My kids are out shopping as we speak for the meal they're gonna concoct for my birthday meal this evening,and I can't wait!

About your 'liberal' female friends.......how disappointing that they don't do their share of outside chores! Course these things are often based on patterns that families fall into , that become habits they rarely think about, but we libs ARE supposed to be the thinkers, ain't we? Sometimes folks are afraid of trying that which they have never done, cuz they don't think they can do it well, or will be criticized if they mess up. Even same-sex couples get into roles, although they of course are not gender based, and are frightened of interfering in the other's tasks.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2004

You speak wise words, as usual, EM. But I don't mind at all that T and I don't share all chores equally. For one thing, I'm about 75 pounds heavier, so it's sure a lot easier for me to run a chainsaw (she's also scared of them) Plus when I step on a shovel, it's more likely to penetrate our "soil".

Other chores are done due to our likes/dislikes. I am an adamant energy conservationist, so I'm the one who gets to hang clothes on the line instead of throwing them in the dryer. That's cool, as I find hanging clothes rather relaxing.

I'm happy to say that we have few gripes about each other and our roles, other than house cleaning and dishwashing. Neither of us is as good as the other would like us to be...

I think, in defending my liberal women friends, that part of the problem is that they have been doing non physical jobs for so long that they are in poor shape. I personally have the advantage, if it can be called that, of doing seriosly heavy work most of my life, which makes it less a big deal to do physical work

T used to split all her own firewood when we first met, 25 years ago, but then got out of the habit when I welded the head of her splitting maul onto a length of 2" steel pipe to make a fence post driver. I think she was secretly glad. Then she got a full time job teaching at the local college, and between that and getting 20+ years older, probably couldn't split wood if she wanted to. At least, not without resorting to using wedges.

But she does so much more--like almost single handedly organizing the community to support the arts, in various forms. for one example.

Keep on keepin on, EM!

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2004

Y'all just keep putting those political links in; heck, I'll settle for just the addys, being link challenged as I am.

See, I don't know how to search this stuff out (and I have a god- awful slow dial up besides) so I kinda count on other folks to point me in interesting directions.

Not to distract from politics, but..

Joe, my Hubs has been doing most of the cooking since he semi- retired - and, while he is not as good a cook as I am; I'm not as good a mechanic as he is either, since I spent my last 40 years tinkering around in the kitchen or garden while he was out in the garage. I am just whimperingly grateful each time I wake to a kitchen full of food. Of course, I am also grateful each time he picks up the chainsaw. I could do without the TV cartoons and the strange bodily noises and odors; but all in all....

I have fallen more into a (forgive me, EM) "traditional" femmy role in the past few years; and while it sometimes bothers me, it is oh-so comfortable. Of course, it is the traditional role as held by my Granny Leone Steamroller, not my Granny Julietta Doormat....so that probably makes some difference in my comfortability level. The fact that I earn the majority of the bucks in our household also probably makes me more comfortable in the fem role. (I started to say Earthmother role, but that one was already taken, eh?!)

So anyway, I'm done digressing now; carry on with the political stuff.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2004

EM, very interesting about the church by you folks! We have PFLAG meetings at our church (local) and we have adopted open and affirming position, as well. Our sanctuary was built in 1905 and we are gearing up for a centennial celebration. The building is lovely with concrete walls that look like old stone and the tall steeple associated with Congregationalist churchs (Congregationalist merged with 3 other denominations in the 1950s to become UCC).

Good discussion. Both the current religious right and political right strategies seem to involve scaring the hell out of the population, either by terrorist threat or eternal damnation (oh and this rapture stuff is a later addition to Christian theology...I'll have to do some research b/c I can't quite remember, but seems to me this stuff starting spewing around Darwin-time). The history of the Christian church is quite fascinating, for those of you who have a lifetime or so to study it(!).

Our state is embroiled in the Governor's race still. Christine Gregoire was behind Dino Rossi by 40+ votes in a race in which several million votes were cast. The state is now on its 2nd recount (for those of you who live in caves and probably have not heard by now). Interesting banter on the radio. Much of the dissin' of Gregoire is old sexist crap that is unbelievably still around. I heard a guy on a call in show say who does this broad think she is? Does she think she has more balls than Rossi, etc. Yes, even here in Blue Western Washington, we have enlightened thinkers such as that guy.

Speaking of sexism...actually not, but speaking of chores, Mr. S. does a lot of the physical stuff, but I also chop wood, put up fence, and have had to wrestle rams as you know. Mr. S. does all the car maintenance; I'm so grateful. That stuff bores me so much. The last time I knew how to fix anything on a car was on my '66 VW, but then how cars worked made sense to me back then. Mr. S. also does the bill paying, as he's more organized (anal) about it than I am, which is a very important character trait in bill-payer mentality....means the bills get paid! I do almost all the nest stuff (cook, shop, etc), and he does his own laundry and sometimes mine (although one needs a directory on how to wash my clothes, apparently, or stuff comes out shrunken and discolored). I have built most of the gardens myself, including planting the trees and digging the turf, dumping truckloads of topsoil, etc. Mr. S. has built all the structures: 2-car garage, bunkhouse, hot tub pavilion, 2 chicken houses, 2 barns (but I helped). I usually do the painting and the holding of the ends of things whilst they are being nailed.

Guess I'd better think about feeding some hungry sheep right now and get ready to go to work (ha! work...after writing about all this physical stuff; it seems funny to describe sitting at a desk all day typing as 'work')!

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2004

Hi, Sheepish. Yawn; i'm too old to be answering this./ Seems to me that whatever works for you, me, Em, or anyone else is fine, as long as we're all willing to work together. in other words, as long as one or the other in a relationship (one, two, three, or the others?) does not get aggressive and push his/her weight around) we can have healthy relationships regardless of the PC factor.

You guys are way cool. Thanks for being here!

JOJ

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2004

I agree, Joe, whatever works is hard to argue with. There is something to be said though for occasionally stepping outside one's comfort zone in order to learn how capable we are of learning/accomplishing something new. With opposite sex couples, the issue of the partner with a superior physical strength is certainly valid and predictable, a condition that doesn't exist with most same sex couples. My family,having no males, has managed to do everything that needs doing anyway, using brains over brawn when "heavy-lifting" is required, or occasionally hiring the brawn.

When I was married (seems like another lifetime), my husband was pretty useless in the stereotypical male stuff anyway,which was fine with me cuz I cannot abide macho guys. I know he was a city kid, and only 22, but he couldn't even put up the tent properly on our honeymoon camping trip without my help, knew much less about cars than I, and had no sense of direction, and was terrified of bugs. Ha.

Sheepish, I think that perhaps sitting at a desk all day is more work, if work is defined as a negative thing, than is physical labor, cuz it can be so bloody boring, eh? Probably the majority of folks in this country have jobs that are desk jobs nowaday, pretty useless and unfilling, a lot of em.Physical work can seem so much more satisfying.......real results, real beginnings and endings.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2004

Wise words as usual, EM. You're right about challenging ourselves with things we normally would not think appropriate (paraphrasing)

Re: "My family,having no males, has managed to do everything that needs doing anyway, using brains over brawn". That reminds me of a "dicho" (don't know the English equivalent) my very retired friend used to tell me when I was building him and his hon a garage: "JOJ, if you don't use your head, your whole body suffers".

BTW, as a builder who did 90% of the work alone, I sure had to figure out how to do a lot of heavy stuff by using ingenuity, leverage, etc. One can do damned near anything alone that two or more people normally do together.

Feel free to turn this into some smutty sexual thang if y'all want...

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2004