Here presented an old Classic of Reform theology, the Five Sola's!.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004

Answers

SOLA SCRIPTURA, or Scripture Alone SOLA GRATIA, or Grace Alone SOLA FIDE, or Faith Alone SOLUS CHRISTUS, or Christ Alone SOLI DEO GLORIA, or Glory Of God Alone

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004.

Let us discuss the Historic ramifications of this set of principles, and the general theology behind it.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004.

SOLA SCRIPTURA, or Scripture Alone- This relaly emans that Scirpture contaisn all we need ot knwo to be saved. I wil agree to this.

SOLA GRATIA, or Grace Alone - this means that God's grace alone remisses our sins, and again, I concure. Oddly so do the Catholcs on this baord, even though this is written up in protest to Catholisism...

SOLA FIDE, or Faith Alone - This is one I disagree with , as Faith without works is dead. ( James, Chapter 2, verse 20.) However, I do beleive i a form of Faith alone, int hat our faith is the empitus for our actions.

SOLUS CHRISTUS, or Christ Alone - Even Catholics agree that Christ alone is our Saviour.

SOLI DEO GLORIA, or Glory Of God Alone - Agreed. In all thinhs, to God be the Glory.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004.

I believe in these if we reverse the orders...

FIDE SOLA: I do not believe in "faith only" as interpreted by our silly American churches today. I do however believe that we are saved "only by faith." The Christian walk can only be by faith, as opposed to sight or human control.

FIDE GRATIA: If grace alone was sufficient to save humanity, every person would have automatically been regenerated at the rising of Christ's body, regardless of our repentance. However, it is only by grace, only by the merciful favor of God that any individual throughout the course of humanity can be saved.

FIDE SCRIPTURA: While history can add strong evidence of oral teachings and church practices, only written scripture can hold ultimate authority for Christian guidance. Sound doctrine can only be so if it does not contradict inspired writtings.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

I probably violated all kinds of Latin grammar rules by reversing them, but I believe everyone can understand my meanings.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

It is my understanding that the reformers, specifically Luther, believed in the "reverse latin" versions of these teachings. When I consider the purpose for their creation (opposing legalism and compromised human tradition), I draw the conclusion that Luther was just going back to the basic arguments of Paul, the appeal of the NT teachings of faith vs. works.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

Well, it is odd to see " Fide" as the afix each time since Fide means faith...so Fide Gratia means Faith grace...

I htink you means as follows...

FIDE SOLA: I do not believe in "faith only" as interpreted by our silly American churches today. I do however believe that we are saved "only by faith." The Christian walk can only be by faith, as opposed to sight or human control. GRATIA sola : If grace alone was sufficient to save humanity, every person would have automatically been regenerated at the rising of Christ's body, regardless of our repentance. However, it is only by grace, only by the merciful favor of God that any individual throughout the course of humanity can be saved. SCRIPTURA Sola: While history can add strong evidence of oral teachings and church practices, only written scripture can hold ultimate authority for Christian guidance. Sound doctrine can only be so if it does not contradict inspired writtings.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004.

Paul himself wrote that we are not justified by works. I am certain that Paul had rituals and legalism in mind when he wrote these things. However, the church, just previous to the Reformation, had been compromised with the very things Paul and Jesus rebuked. Did Luther do it perfectly? Well, no. Why are we discussing these issues right now? I believe his intentions were good and biblicay based.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

oops, you caught me zarove. silly cutnpaste. word of caution when using is needed.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

haven't you ever heard of the Faith Bible? It's the newest translation...

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

I believe that St. Paul and St. James were teaching the same doctrines, but from different angles. St. Paul was teaching to people who could not understand their faith because of the emphasis they put on the "law". St. James was teaching to people who did not understand the "works" believing that all one needed was faith, which turned out to be a "fruitless" faith. Luther, obviously, did not grasp the importance of St. Paul and St. James as being in harmony and unison of the same doctrine.

We really should include "works" in our overall faith system. Put "works" where you like, just don't dismiss it.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

But, in all reality, of the many non-Catholics whom I've met and chatted with, they all did perform "works". Some don't admit it and then them make stipulations about those "works". That's fine. Every non-Catholic church I've been involved with inevitably puts their congregation to "work", but some don't dare preach "works". The will use terms like "fruits", "labor of love", "God's work through you", etc. That's fine, too. But, it is rather puzzling when the sermon/preaching proclaims "Faith Only".

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

Do people do good things if they don't have a good heart?

The law given by Moses represents the Earthly things, which are symbolic of Heavenly things. Jesus said if we cannot understand the Earthly, how can we understand the Heavenly?

Those deeds of the law, the sacrifices and feasts and fasts and sabbaths, they mean absolutely nothing by themselves. They are only symbols of what is supposed to be in our hearts. This is why Paul wrote that we are not saved by works [of the law]. Going through the rituals, observing the feasts, and being Jewish in the flesh means cannot save anyone, simply because they are nothing in themselves, only shadows pointing to the order of God.

The Sola's protested the "Jewish" church, the church that had become so concerned with the rituals and traditions and outward symbols that she had forsaken the work of Grace.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

I still see James as speaking of something totally different. Certainly he was in agreement with Paul that the circumcision of our flesh was of no use. But he had a different task, teaching idle believers. So you believe in God? Now what? Now present yourself proven before God! James spoke of action faith, not a faith that inevitable goes through the rituals of the law, but a faith that acts out of fear of God.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

I generally agree with you, Luke. Man didn't get things straight with the "Law". That's why St. Paul had to re-organize it for them. But, we must remember Who gave them the "Law" in the first place. Was it Moses or God?

The "Law" showed or pointed to Christ as Our Saviour. But, they didn't understand it at the time.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

I don't believe we can use James to refute Sola Fide, or as I believe it was intended Fide Sola. Had James been thinking of the symbolic rituals of the law when he wrote "we are justified by works," then Christians, including Gentiles would be required to observe the law.

James isn't saying, "faith without [sacrifices/ceremonies/feasts/sabbaths] is dead." Rather, the action done by faith are is faith. It seems that Luther did not understand the differences.

In light of this, I don't see a major problem with Sola Fide, apart that it has been interpreted to Faith's view by many denominations today.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 21, 2004.

On the other hand, Paul also contrasted faith with human effort. The example James used, providing for a brother in need, certainly could be considered human effort. On the other hand, maybe it cannot.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

SOLUS CHRISTUS (getting back): This is fine to me as it is. One angle is, Jesus Christ is the only redeemer, savior, and giver of eternal life. Christ himself said "Iam the way and the truth and the life."

Another way to take this would be to say, "The only one I need is Christ." Having Christ is what salvation is, or Christ having us if you will. Having Christ only speaks of being crucified to the world, forsaking everything and clinging to Jesus only. Having Christ certainly means having faith in him enough to walk with/in him

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

Amen to that Luke!

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 22, 2004.

We also need each other. The idea of a "personal Saviour" doesn't quite settle comfortably in my faith. And, there is God who gets kind of put back on the back burner when we settle for Jesus Only thinking.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

I think I know what you mean, Luke. I'm only trying to reflect on the purpose Jesus walked the earth--our Salvation and our living with each other.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

I totally agree Rod. In my mind, that is part of the "Christ only" concept as described by Luke above. That is because we are part of the Body of Christ and Christ wants us to see Him in our brothers and sisters.

The people I respect most for having a great personal relationship with Jesus were the most giving and loving toward the worst of humanity (e.g., Mother Teresa, Vincent DePaul, Dorothy Day, etc.). In fact, St. Max fits this bill too. He prayed for the Nazis who tormented him. All for the love of Christ.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 22, 2004.

SOLA FIDE

We are justified by an active faith, not an act of faith or mere mental assent. We must have a true living trust. Only God can judge whether one has that saving faith or not.

This is not to be confused with the idea that our works or money can remit sins, as the Roman Catholic church has taught in many ways - Indulgences etc.

Only the blood of Christ can remit sins and only an active faith can apprehend that blood through the Word (which includes the Sacraments of the Church.)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

All for the love of Christ..

and God our Father.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 22, 2004.

Ooops, you beat me on the post Max. that last post was meant as a tag along to my previous post.

Great description of active faith Max. But you also said,

This is not to be confused with the idea that our works or money can remit sins, as the Roman Catholic church has taught in many ways - Indulgences etc.

Acts of charity (including indulgences) are worthless without faith. That is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 22, 2004.

I wasn't a reformer, but based on their writings, I would conclude that the Solus Christus wasn't intended to deny the Trinity, or promote "Jesus Only" propaganda. They were just affirming that Jesus Christ was/is the only Messiah.

Then there is that country song, about some guy who doesn't go to church because he and Jesus have their own relationship thing going on.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

Max-

In the 21st century, is Catholic Church in the business of selling indulgences to buy our way out of Purgatory?

Do you hear Catholics boasting about their "works" for fame and glory?

Do you believe that Catholics are making their labors important for the benefit of their society?

Or, do you believe that their "works" are purely irrelevant in the eyes of God?

The people I've met--non-Catholics and Catholics--do "works". They neither boast nor claim self-puffing up. This has been the argument used against doing "works". Also, I hear that it is God working through the working believer. But, this belief can take on a look of magic or possesion. For me, God does work through his children because his children have accepted His teachings. So, we reflect the image of God in our "work". It is the thing to do for our lives and others'. God wants us to be like brothers and sisters. God could very easily do the work Himself. But, that would make us like little spoiled bratts always asking for more and more. He wants us to take care of each other. That is the "work" I generally understand.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.