T.U.L.I.P.greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Readers,
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Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.
Just for fun I thought we could discuss T.U.L.I.P.
Besides, sort of brings David back.
Below is the list... and what it stands for. Offer discussions please.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004
T= Total Inability or Depravity U= Unconditional Election L =Limited Atonement I = Irresistible Grace P= Perseverance of the Saints.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004.
I reject Calvinism, based on many things... one of which is the abcnce of free will...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 20, 2004.
This reminds me of good old David O. I pray he's doing well. Looking forward to hearing from him again. I do have some comments/questions about TULIP, but I'll have to take some time to put more thought into them before posting.I'd be surprised if anyone can raise objections to Calvinist doctrine that faithful Calvinists don't already have an answer for. It seems to be a well developed doctrine, though I do think that it is wrong.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 20, 2004.
My problem with it is tht ou cant be a Calvinist for Chriztmas, its relaly only a spring and summer idea... and soem only once every two years if you plant a Bieneal.OK, bad joke...sorry...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 21, 2004.
I was predestined to reject Calvinism........................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 21, 2004.
i was predestined not to be predestined.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 21, 2004.
God doesn't knock everyone off their horse to wake them up in order to persuade them to become a Christian.God knew and planned for Paul's conversion to Christ.
Based on this, I'd say there must be a certain amount of predestination involved with conversion...
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.
Well, Max. Not everyone goes around killing Christians and underminding Christianity. I don't own a horse. But, I could envision God knocking people out of their automobiles as a wake up call to follow Him.I have this nagging problem with me praying. It seems that all the time I pray, bad things happen. My son is having such a difficult time getting his school assignments completed; my family life is suffering. We prayed. The next day. We learn of an old friend being involved in a bad car accident. Her son is in the hospital with severe head injuries. Another teacher's newphew, we found out yesterday, has died. Our prayers focus on others now. Suddenly, my son's problems aren't that important. But, I have discovered that my prayers should be done with great care. God doesn't exactly answer us to our specifications. I've been knocked of my horse quite a many times and for good reason.
.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.
Max--Can you post anything from the Scriptures where predestination ever refers to salvation or conversion?
Is there one example where someone is predestined to heaven or hell?
From as far as I can tell--predestination always pertains to certain blessings that God bestows on those who are already saved., such as being predestined to eternal life--or being predestined as adopted children of God..etc.
Anyone?
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding as to just what predestination means biblically speaking.....
-- ("faith01@myway.com), October 22, 2004.
"Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Ephesians 1:5)In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11)
Don't "becoming His adopted children" and "receiving our inheritance" comprise salvation?
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2004.
No Paul..They are the resulting blessings that come because of salvation.
God--in His foreknowledge--knew whether or not we each received His Son...and based on that foreknowledge--He predestined us accordingly...
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 22, 2004.
Salvation is being delivered from the power of sin and the penalty thereof...which is death.Romans 6:20-23
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
But now that you have been set free (saved) from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 22, 2004.
Rom 8:12-17 (NIV)Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 22, 2004.
Good one Andy--but it means the same thing to me., because:...if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ.
This reminds me of James who says that faith without works is dead. He is not contradicting Paul who says that we are saved by faith and not works so that no one may boast. But when you harmonize the two-- you find that what James is saying is that the works is evidence of true faith, and that the lack of such fruit would likely mean that the faith is not real..
In the same way--if you live by the sinful nature--you are not of the Spirit. But if you are of the Spirit--you will live by the Spirit...you are not a slave to fear because you are saved and therefore will suffer for Christ.You are able to do so because you have the power in Christ--because you are saved. You don't suffer for Christ in order to be saved...those who are not saved--are not of the Spirit., som they would live according to the flesh...
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 23, 2004.
"God--in His foreknowledge--knew whether or not we each received His Son...and based on that foreknowledge--He predestined us accordingly... " - FaithWhere is the biblical basis for this? How do you know 'predestined' means 'looked in the future'?
Main Entry: pre·des·tine Pronunciation: (")prE-'des-t&n Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French predestiner, from Latin praedestinare, from prae- + destinare to determine -- more at DESTINE : to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand; especially : PREDESTINATE 1
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.
David--No one is predestined to be saved though. It is because they are saved--that God predestined them to certain blessings, such as being adopted children of God and going to heaven.
In God's foreknowledge--He knew which of us would accept His Son. And He based His predestinating on whether or not we had salvation in His Son.
I never said that predestined means looking into the future.
Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestined us to certain blessings, according to His forknowledge.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 15, 2004.