I have an odd question for Elpidio.

What do you make of Prayer? Or tithing? Of fasting?

are these things good, and should we do them?

What is The Way-The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus's teaching on these matters?

How do you reconcile these with the scriptures in your Canon?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 13, 2004

Answers

I am using DORESSE's translation of Thomas Gospel from this link: http://www.gospelthomas.com/gospelthomas6.html

To show an earlier version of Jesus regarding thse things.

6 [6]. His disciples asked and said to him: "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray, how shall we give alms, what rules concerning eating shall we follow?"

Jesus says: "Tell no lie, and whatever you hate, do not do: for all these things are manifest to the face of heaven

; nothing hidden will fail to be revealed and nothing disguised will fail before long to be made public!" Oxyrhynchus Greek Fragment DORESSE - Oxyrhynchus

[His disciples] asked [and] say to him: "How shall we fa[st and how shall we pr]ay, and how [. . .], and what rules shall [we] follow [concerning eating"] Jesus says: [". . .] do not [. . .] of truth [. . .] hidden [. . ."] ATTRIDGE - Oxyrhynchus

(6) [His disciples] questioned him [and said], "How [shall we] fast? [How shall we pray]? How [shall we give alms]? What [diet] shall [we] observe?" Jesus said, "[Do not tell lies, and] do not do what you [hate, for all things are plain in the sight] of truth. [For nothing] hidden [will not become manifest]." Funk's Parallels

POxy654 6, GThom 14:1, POxy1 27, GThom 27, GThom 104, POxy654 5:2-3, GThom 5:2, Tob 4:15, Luke 11:1-4, Luke 6:31, Luke 8:16-17, Luke 12:1- 3, Matt 6:2-4, Matt 6:5-15, Matt 6:16-18, Matt 7:12, Matt 10:26-33, Mark 4:21-22, Did 8:1-3, POxy1224 2, Did 1:1-2.

So for Jesus, in Thomas' Gospel one finds that they are not necessary.What is important is not to lie.

Matthew on the other hand makes them mandatory: Charity: Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Prayer:

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. .

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. .........

Fasting

Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 6:17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

Mat 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

So Matthew makes the argument, that although fasting, prayer, diets,.. are important, seeking God's Kingdom is more important.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

In Mark, Jesus makes it known that human beings welfare comes first. Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This is re-inforced later when Jesus says one should no be bound to traditions. For Jesus having a heart close to god (Yahweh) is much more important.

Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash [their] hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. It is not the outward worship, according to Jesus, which makes us right with God. And also, it is the impure thoughts and actions which makes us defiled before God Yahweh.

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

The Gospels of Luke and John also take a lenient attitude about them.

Even Paul does take a lenient attitude.

Not James, Jesus' brother. In his letter he wants a person to have a clean, purfied heart.

For James doing something for others is part of our outward religion: Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded James emphasizes prayer.

Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

In Acts James makes only these recommendations after this question arose:

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. ..... <Peter makes a case for the Gentiles>

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Thus, acts states that gentiles are not under obligation to follow Jewish traditions and rituals, Zarove.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

So, The Way-The Church of Yahweh also doesn't make things mandatory, but it doesn't make them optional, either.

Let me make this clear.

On prayer:

We pray when we get up: I thank you Yahweh for making live one more day. Have mercy on me. Protect me from all evil. Help me do well today. I ask you this in the name of your son Jesus.

when we eat:

Thank you Yahweh for the food you provide for us today.May food be always in our table.

when we go to sleep: Thanks Yahweh for allowing to live one more day. If my time has come , allow me to enter your kingdom. If I have sinned against any of your people forgive my sins. Remember the good things I have done. Show me mercy. But if my time has not yet come, then allow me to accomplish what I need to accomplish. Continue to bless me and those around me. I ask you this in the name of your son Jesus.

when we get on the freeway, when we drive,..: Protect me Yahweh from any accident. If it is my time to go, them have mercy on me. I ask you this in Jesus name.

when we try to make a decision: If what I have to do Yahweh is right, allow me to accomplish it. If not, then , let me know. Guide me every step along the way. Protect me from all evil. Give me the understanding to see what must be done. I ask you this in Jesus name.

we pray for our health and the health of others...:

Yahweh, I ask you for my health (or health of ....) to cure me from my sicknesses, illneses, and physical and mental condtions. Give me strength to carry on in life. Don't allow me to despair.

Besides the all famous prayer (Christian Yahwist version):

Father Yahweh, who are in Heaven, holy be your name, let your sovereign reign come. Let your will be done, on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Let us have bread everyday

(Hebrew says the bread of tommorrow give to us today).

Forgive our sins and debts

(Hebrew says debts)

as we forgive those who sinned and are indebted to us

(a combination of Matthew and Luke).

Don't lead us into temptation. Protect us from evil, Amen.

(Some vrsions say the Evil one).

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

As for fasting, zarove, The way-The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus,will fast only twice a year.

The day Jesus after was betrayed, to remind us of his betrayal during Passover.

The other time during Yom Kippur in september to remind us we are sinners. Jesus was born also around this time. He wasn't born in December. In the evening, after fasting in the morning, we write our sins on papers we later burn and wash away in water.

Passages on fasting: Mar 2:18 And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

Mar 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

So fasting, according to Jesus, was a way to mourn and remember him, the bridegroom, because he was taken away.

On dietery laws, we still try to follow the decision of James and the council on the question of animals that are strangled.

Almost all foods are permissible to Christian Yahwists,

except human flesh, the flesh of dead animals who died on their own, and animals who were fed other animals when they don't feed on other animals, animals who were cruelly killed,....Also avoid too much fat in foods, instead use olive oil when available... Lev 7:23 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat.

Lev 7:24 And the fat of the beast that dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn with beasts, may be used in any other use: but ye shall in no wise eat of it. . As for alcohol: Paul drank

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Si did Jesus

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Jhn 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. ...

Instead, we are to drink alcoholic beverages with moderation

1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

As for Tobacco products, I recommend moderation, but abstantion if you can. Why? Because we received God's breath (spirit) to live. When we smoke, we inhale no longer life but death. Lung cancer is a consequence of this.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

On the Question of marriage, celibate life, and so on:

Most people should marry to procreate new living beings to replace the ones who die.

We don't believe in living together arrangements.

We accept divorce and re-marriage in some situations.

We are against abortion. If you aborted and were not a member, we will help you to be at peace with God Yahweh.

We accept contraception when it is done not with the purpose to avoid children, but to space them. We recommend a minimum of 2 children. Couples should have between 2-5 kids in our modern era.

We recommend in case of divorce, that children be provided always money not because th state mandates it, but because God Yahweh requires it.

We also recommend that divorce proceedings be established after at least 6 months have passed to give time to the couple to find a reconciliation or an understanding.

We also suggest to our members to donate to charities which support good causes.

We consider a 1% donation to a particular church as part of doing business in our modern world to pay rent, insurance, ...Jesus never mandated tithes, neither did his disciples.

(In this passage, a tithe of a tithe is 1% was given by the priests and levites) Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, [even] a tenth [part] of the tithe.

Any otherpractice I will post later.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

"The Gospel of Thomas" is, however, part of thy cannon, is it not?

Read Sating 14 ( Hereafter I shall refer to the sayings as Verses.)

14) Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

What does " The Way, the Chruch of Yahweh in Christ Jesus" ( Hereafter called the Chruch of the way in Yahweh, or Yahwist group) make of this passage?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 14, 2004.

And still no answer...

-- -- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 19, 2004.

The gospel of Thomas is part of the canon of Scripture??????

No--I don't think so........

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 19, 2004.

Some of those "gospels" have trickled down to other parts of the early world and settle quite comfortably in other bibles.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.

Zarove,

Saying 14 is found in the accepted Gospels except the way these parts are written.

Check Matthew ch. 6. You will se that the first 18 verses of Matthew correspond to saying 14. Matthew tends to expand on Thomas just as it does with Mark, its other source for Jesus life. Giving to charity or giving freely what we have to others is not negated by Thomas. It is the way it is done, by letting others know.

I myself give to all kinds of charities: Feed the Children, Habitat for Humanity, Appalachia, The Salvation Army, San Bernardino Mission, Veteran groups, Olympic committee,....to Catholic ones (I ask them first if they object to someone like me donating to them. No one has yet refused to say I am lost). If I were to say to you how much I give to each then I will lose my reward, Zarove.

Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven

Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits

In Matthew 6:5-15 this question on prayer is elaborated. Reasons for praying are given, but the one alluded here is this one:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

That is, prayer is in most cases an act between one and God without any public displays to show others we we know how to pray.

Let us not confuse this with prayers that are done by a congregation. Even the apostle Paul approved of them, and so do we.

Again, on the question of fasting, Thomas show as expanded by Matthew that the way it was done in Jesus days was not the correct one.

Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward

So Thomas in a short way is saying that as long as we do things for our own glory and not God Yahweh's glory, then we have no reward, as Jesus stated.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.

The gospel of Thomas has never been considered as part of the inspired canon....

The reason is that the gospel of Thomas was always rejected by the majority was because the quality just isn't there.

Whoever wrote it--may have tried to copy from the true gospels--but even the early church fathers unanimously rejected it because the author reveals his inadequecies in most of his book. Eusebius of Caesarea said that the book should be "cast aside as absurd and impious."

The problem is that although the book may contain some genuine sayings of Jesus--it is mixed in with Gnostic teachings.

Clearly the canon of Scripture is closed...and the gospel of Thomas was never included. No other books in existence have the credentials to merit inclusion. Early believers instictively knew this......

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 19, 2004.

" The reason is that the gospel of Thomas was always rejected by the majority was because the quality just isn't there. "--Faith.

Ahem, the majority was not Gnostic. Had they been, we'd be in a mess of things today. Uh, Revelations was inches from being banned from the Bible. (Cough) The Book of John was questionable--being kind Gnostic. (Belch) The Protestants also did a number of the Bible. Let's face it. The Bible in the Protestant arena has suffered quite a make-over. Let's hope that the majority doesn't remove anymore books. Who is the majority anyways?

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.

I am not satosfoed, elp... the Verse 14 clealry said not to pray, or ive tithes, or fast...

it doesnt connect to Mathew, and if it is earlier, Mathew shoudltn count anyway.

Rod- the majority are Catholics, who are the largest denominatin in current existance.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 19, 2004.