I DO believe that once you are saved you cannot be unsaved. God wouldn't promise eternal life and then take it away.greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
(I couldn't get in to post in the other forum, so I'll post this regarding Steph's comment.)"I DO believe that once you are saved you cannot be unsaved. God wouldn't promise eternal life and then take it away. " ................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004
Yes, God does offer Salvation and continually offer. But, it is up to us to keep faithful. If we fail, we lose..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
You know. Some will say that all you need is faith in Christ. They will tell you that "works" is not an issue--"Sola Fide". Well, I think of Salvation like an insurance policy. If you stop paying your premiums, you stop receiving your insurance. In other words, if you stop having faith, you stop having Salvation. So, when people say that you must keep in the Scriptures--study--you are actually doing "work". Faith? Hmm? How does a non-believer come to faith?How does a person come to have faith in the first place if "works" is not part of the deal?
How does a person stay in faith over the long haul called, "life"?
...........................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
I too believe that God is not in the business of "taking" away Salvation. He wants all people to come to Him. It is man's own design that causes himself to fall from Grace. So, what have we done in order to lose our Salvation? We lose our faith. Some will say that losing faith is not possible. Really? Some will say that the person never had faith to begin with. Really?Well, back to my bothersome question.
How do we know if that faith is real?
Who determines what is real or false?
Some will say that we have to stay in Scriptures. This means the acceptance of interpretations. Whose interpretations? Our own?
Well, with those questions sparkling in the sunset, how can we be sure of anyone's Salvation?
The best we can do is to "work out our Salvation" and have faith in God that His Divine Mercy will take care of everything.
........................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Faith-I read your previous reply to Steph in the Christian Forum. You did a fine job in describing the "work" needed to having Faith. The non-believer, as well as the believer, has to "work" at studying and keeping in the Word (for you that means text). But, the critical thing is working at faith. That means understanding and convincing oneself of what it means to accept Christ. I think it is rather strange that a person can just wake up on day and have faith. They would be like many church goers who say they have faith, but are clueless as to what they believe. Strange.
.............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Good points rod. Here are a couple more questions your train of thought brings to mind.
If "believing" is something we need to "do," doesn't that make it a "work"? I know faith comes from God. But us "choosing" to believe (and accept faith) makes it a work accomplished by our choosing to cooperate with His grace, doesn't it? Surely it's something done by the grace of God, but something we do nonetheless. If that is true, then is salvation accomplished by our "work" of believing, even though it is impossible without the grace of God? Sure, its a free gift, but God allows us to accept or reject.
"Believing" is something we need to "do" not just once, but every minute of our life. Can't stress that we couldn't "do" it without God's help though. Our "believing" dies if we do not act on it in our speech, our actions, our thoughts, and our will.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 23, 2004.
A time back, Kevin and I got into it about instrumental music as a form of worship. His argument asserted that it is only in the speech that we hear, not the extrinsics. We should worship will everything we have. You've pointed that out, Andy. This includes my guitar in my worship. I thought I'd just mention that................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Oops....I wrote "will" instead of "with". I was thinking free will, obviously.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Good point rod.Modification to previous post:
Our "believing" dies if we do not act on it in our speech, our actions, our thoughts, our will, and our music. :)
That brings up another idea. Music can touch the heart and soul like nothing else. Sometimes that may be the best way to communicate with God. Or maybe God sometimes speaks to us through music. Just a thought.
Don't want to throw us off topic. I'll stop thinking through the keyboard for now.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 23, 2004.
Rod-Salvation is offered as a gift.
If we work for it--then it is no longer a gift--but an earned thing.
-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 23, 2004.
You missed the point, Faith. In order to accept that gift, a person must first meet its requirment--FAITH.............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
And then I'll hear,"we are not deserving of Salvation"..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Faith,You said If we work for it--then it is no longer a gift--but an earned thing.
I think we have to work for salvation in the sense that we need to maintain our faith and charity through cooperation with the grace God freely offers us. It's a constant battle against temptations from Satan, the world, and our flesh. We struggle by the grace of God everyday. This doesn't make salvation an earned thing anymore than the need for our belief in Him makes it an earned thing. God doesn't have to give us faith (and through it, salvation) because we study Scripture. He doesn't owe us anything because of it. But He does keep His promises out of love for us.
For example, we should study the Word in order to grow in faith. If we don't, then our faith can become atrophied from lack of use. Eventually, if we don't continue to cooperate with God's grace, our faith becomes dead (without the fruit of good works). "Working" at strengthening our faith doesn't make salvation anything less than a freely offered gift. But I do think we have to "work" at obediently accepting that gift from God through obedience to His Word and prayer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have said a couple times that reading the Word of God can convict our hearts in faith. We don't earn salvation by reading the Word, but by doing this work (even if we are an atheist and don't have faith) God's grace can work through it to grant us faith. In this example, wouldn't reading the Word be an example of working out our salvation (such as Paul describes in Phil 2:12)?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 23, 2004.
I agree Andy--that once we are saved--we need to work it out--in that now that we have the power to resist sin--we need to do so.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.
I would add that salvation comes by faith because we believed the gospel message---believing the gospel is the only *work* required of us unto salvation.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.
But, the non-believer also has to work at that faith. Don't sidestep the issue.Faith says,"...believing the gospel is the only *work* required of us unto salvation. "
Let me remind you that in accepting that Gospel--Jesus Christ our Saviour--also means everything that goes with that acceptance. Faith means believing in doing everything that is commanded, ordained, or inspired. What is faith without works?
...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Here is an example to consider:Tell me this is correct.
A person can keep on sinning up a storm because Christ died for all of his sins. Of course, that is not correct. A person must find a way to remain sanctified or to avoid sinning to the best of his abilities.
...............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
You just have it a bit twisted around rod. That is all.There is no work required of us unto salvation but to believe. The Bibles states this in plain language.
Once you are saved though--then you have the power to resist sin and to follow Cghrist.
If you continue to deliberately sin and you do not follow Christ-- then your salvation was not real--because your faith is dead--false!
There is nothing we can do to earn salvation because it is a gift-- given freely.
If you try paying for that gift or earning it in some way--then it is no longer a gift.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.
"Once you are saved though--then you have the power to resist sin and to follow Christ. "-Faith.But, no man is without sin, not one. Are you able to resist sin?
(Your turn to twist things around, Faith.)
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
We might be able to resist sin, but we have Salvation that will redeem us. We must confess our sins to our Redeemer--Jesus Christ. That is why He was Sacrificed, for our Salvation. Resist sins? We are humans and we ain't exactly perfect or divine...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Some pertinent verses:1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth.
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another: And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised): Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 23, 2004.
rod--Maybe you should try and understand just what salvation is.Salvation is the deliverance from the power of sin--and the penalty thereof.
Once you are *saved*--truly saved--you can resist the temptations in this life. Will you mess up? Of course you will--but it won't be deliberate. You will be remorseful and confess it to God.
But salvation is forgiveness of the debt you owe for the sin which you inherited from Adam and Eve. The penalty is death! But you are forgiven that debt--salvation is like a receipt that reads: "Paid in Full". Jesus pa8id the debt--which is death--for you, in your place-- at the cross. Now you receive this forgiveness of that debt and you are saved from death.
Now you also have the power to resist sin in your life--but these such sins are not what you needed forgiveness for unto salvation. You needed to be freed from the debt incured in the Garden.
The end result of your salvation--is eternal life. You do not have to die. Jesus died in your place.
So to think that salvation cannot be a sure thing and that you are being judged by your abilty in this life to not sin--is to miss the biblical message and the whole point about Jesus--original sin and what salvation means.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.
How did you arrive at your idea of Salvation, Faith? The Holy Scriptures? I've read the Holy Scriptures, too, but our understandings are worlds apart..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Faith,I'm glad we were in agreement a few posts back :)
I think the point here is not that you are being judged by your abilty in this life to not sin. The point is that we are judged by our response to God's call to love Him. We can only avoid sin by God's grace. I may not have this thought out correctly, but if we reject God's gift of grace and "sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins". We must repent and choose God who will "cleanse us from all iniquity". Every day we have choices to make. We sometimes make bad choices and sin, but God's grace is always there for us, if we choose it. It's not that God is judging our ability to avoid sin, I look at it as a loving Father (God) allowing us to choose to love Him or not.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 23, 2004.
"Opportunity may knock once, but temptation bangs on your front door forever."................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
"Once you are *saved*--truly saved--you can resist the temptations in this life."This is true, if we have faith we have the availability of God's grace which if we choose to use it we have the ability to avoid sin. We have an abundance of God's grace, we just often choose to ignore it.
"Will you mess up? Of course you will--but it won't be deliberate."
So what you are saying is that people who are saved only sin accidentally? People sin because they deliberately choose to turn away from God's grace and do what they want rather that what is right with God.
"You will be remorseful and confess it to God."
I have seen people who claim to be saved deny sin and argue to they are blue in the face that what they do is not sin. I am not sure that there is much scriptural support for this notion. We should hope that we would be remorseful but there is no guarantee.
-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 23, 2004.
Well I know that this may sound a bit judgemental and hsrsh--but I truly believe that you can know a true Christian by their fruits.Someone who goes on deliberately sinning--even after they have been born-again.., has seriously missed something. And I would question the validity of their conversion.
But if someone's conversion is legitimate--yet they do continue in defiance., I believe they are still saved--though only as one escaping through the fire....
Everything we do as saved Christians still gets judged on judgement day. Not unto salvation--because there is no longer any condemnation for those found in Christ.
But are works--whether good or bad will be judged. If they burn up-- we receive nothing--if they survive the fire--we are rewarded in heaven. That is what I gather from the Scriptures...
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.
This is a cheap shot.---But as a shameless atheist-returned Catholic. What do people think about someone like Jimmy Swaggart. "He'd saved isn't He?"I wouldn't venture a guess on it based on the way I see things and maybe it isn't germane but --- he's got to be saved!
I feel guilty for this post but please indulge me.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 23, 2004.
Burn it, Faith, next we'll be saying that Satan needs a little faith and then he is saved. I don't think so, sorry.Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has no redemption. The habitual sinner, who knowingly sins, is walking on thin ice.
...................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Gosh Hot Mushrooms and Frozen Peas! Where is Kevin? I'd like to hear what Kevin's teachings have to.....well, teach............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Jim-When I was involved with the Pentecostal Church, the Swaggert thing was the big news in the press and the Pentecostal scene. Quite imediately, the Pentecostals forgave him and chalked it up as simple human natured sinning. Afterall, Swaggert did confess and ask for forgiveness. I remember his t.v. spot--tears running down the cheeks, uh, his not mine. I also remember the Bakkers and their fiasco. I'm sure the Pentecostals have put them all back in a secure condition.
(Is Jim Bakker out of prison yet?)
...............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
Is it "Baker" or "Bakker"? I can't remember. I still can't get the image of all that make-up and mascara out of my mind; I do remember that.....................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.
I think you all need to get with the Scriptures.Someone who deliberately sins is unlikely saved to begin with. Anyone can claim they are saved. But is it true?
I doubt Jimmy Swaggert really understood much--and he's probably as likely to be saved as is all those child-molesting priests I have heard about. It's a heart issue and it is between them and God.
Face it--there are phoneys in every religion.
We know Satan can't be redeemed--so that is just silly--again--read the Bible. God has revealed his doom.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.
This is an interesting discussion because I think Faith is admitting that there are mortal sins, something that I have never seen a Protestant admit before. The protestant position, if I understand it correctly is that it doesn't matter to God whether I am rude to you or kill you, both sins are equally bad before God. On the other hand, Scripture clearly states that some sins are enough to completely sever the relationship between us and God that is created by our faith. Then we start down a slippery slope because then if you argue once saved always saved, you must argue that people who are saved lose the ability to sin, at least to commit these mortal sins. I don't think that there is any scriptural evidence for this idea. We all have the grace to avoid sin, but we sometimes choose to ignore it and sin anyway.
-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 24, 2004.
FaithThat was part of my point. I don't think someone like Swaggart (who I only thought about because of his recent newsworthy statements) and priests who continuously sin have a lock on salvation no matter how convinced they are that they are saved.
THere may be a difference in viewpoint. Swaggart might think once saved always saved, the ped.-priest might think ---I've sinned but I can "confess" and be redeemed.
Still the final judge is the final Judge.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 24, 2004.
RodI'm pretty sure I heard Bakker was out of prison and working on a new ministry. I can give him the benefit of the doubt. He did his time. This time, he may truely be really saved.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 24, 2004.
Faith-"We know Satan can't be redeemed--so that is just silly--again-- read the Bible. God has revealed his doom. "But, according to your personal interpretation, it is theoretically possible for Satan to be saved. Yes or no, Faith? All Satan has to do is to have faith. Now, if it can happen to Satan--terminal damnation--it can happen to any soul. Yes or no, Faith?
Earlier, I asked how much faith is needed to be saved. The answer came back, "a little bit". So, how would that fit into the idea of a person "probably didn't have faith to start with" belief?
How much faith is actually needed before you can determine if they are saved or not?
Anyway, why has it become our concern as to who is saved and who is not?
Are task is to have faith (until our cup runs over, I suppose) and to spread the Gospels. It isn't our jobs to condemn or save anybody; we ain't exactly God.
It sure is a sad day when a self-proclaimed "Saved" person comes to the realization that they were very wrong. Maybe, they didn't have that "faith" afterall, hmmm? I would prefer to put my trust in God.
.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
Faith-"We know Satan can't be redeemed--so that is just silly-- again-- read the Bible. God has revealed his doom. " But, according to your personal interpretation, it is theoretically possible for Satan to be saved. Yes or no, Faith?Not at all, rod--that is your misunderstanding.
All Satan has to do is to have faith. Now, if it can happen to Satan--terminal damnation--it can happen to any soul. Yes or no, Faith?
I am not sure of your point here--Satan does not accept Jesus Christ. We can see from the Scriptures--the past, present and future story of Satan. We know his doom is a sure thing.
Earlier, I asked how much faith is needed to be saved. The answer came back, "a little bit". So, how would that fit into the idea of a person "probably didn't have faith to start with" belief?
Oh boy rod! What does this mean? Who said it takes a little bit of faith to be saved? You either believe in and receive Christ--or you don't. That's like saying I'm a little bit pregnant! There is no middle road. You either experience spiritual conversion and it is real--or you do not.
How much faith is actually needed before you can determine if they are saved or not?
We are saved by Christ's work at Calvary--not by any amount of anything we do. Faith comes from believing the gospel. You either believe it or you do not.
Anyway, why has it become our concern as to who is saved and who is not?
I don't understand your question.
Our task is to have faith (until our cup runs over, I suppose) and to spread the Gospels. It isn't our jobs to condemn or save anybody; we ain't exactly God.
So? I believe that I have always said that. What is this about rod?
It sure is a sad day when a self-proclaimed "Saved" person comes to the realization that they were very wrong. Maybe, they didn't have that "faith" afterall, hmmm? I would prefer to put my trust in God.
Rod--your statement here just shows that you do not understand anything I say.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.
James...This is an interesting discussion because I think Faith is admitting that there are mortal sins, something that I have never seen a Protestant admit before.
No James.., I believe that we are not judged unto salvation on any of these sins--mortal or otherwise. We are judged either condemned or forgiven of the original sin from the time of Adam and Eve., by receiving forgiveness of that debt through Christ's sacrifice that He made in our place--for us. This is like a judicial judgement. This is what we seek forgiveness of in Christ.
As a forgiven sinner--we are empowered by the strength of Him who saved us. A truly saved person cannot commit murder...
Confessing that murder on your death bed is going to do nothing for you if you are not found to be in Christ. What we need to confess on our death bed--if we never did so before is that Christ is Lord and Savior. We need to receive Him.
The protestant position, if I understand it correctly is that it doesn't matter to God whether I am rude to you or kill you, both sins are equally bad before God. On the other hand, Scripture clearly states that some sins are enough to completely sever the relationship between us and God that is created by our faith. Then we start down a slippery slope because then if you argue once saved always saved, you must argue that people who are saved lose the ability to sin, at least to commit these mortal sins. I don't think that there is any scriptural evidence for this idea. We all have the grace to avoid sin, but we sometimes choose to ignore it and sin anyway.
I think you miss just what salvation is....we are saved from the judgement of the curse from the time of the fall of man. When we are forgiven that debt--we are saved. We are saved from the power of sin in our lives. This salvation leads to eternal life--even though we will never be perfect in this life. A truly saved sinner will work out their salvation--becoming more and more Christ-like in their lives. If we do not show the fruit of the spirit in our walk with Christ--then we can doubt the valitiy of the supposed salvation.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.
I do not understand anything you say? I don't understand. What do you mean?Why is it tht when I ask specific questions, you get confused?
It isn't that I don't understand you, Faith. It is that I do not agree with your views, most of the time. So, don't go twisting it to say that I don't understand things. Perhaps it is your complete rejection of the Catholic faith that has you confused about me and many of the other Catholics here?
I notice that you tend to give slippery answers in order to avoid facing those logical arguments, which will prove your doctrines to be flawed. That is a nice tactic, but it can also be to your disadvantage. Face the music, Faith. And cut it out with those little cutting comments.
.........................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
I think the problem with some Protestants is that they do not want to face reality. It is easier to just say that they are saved and that "Sola Fide" is all that one needs. They will not call it "work". That sounds too Catholic. Sin is sin is sin. It seemingly appears that only Protestants are without sin. What happened to confession? Well, there are sins that will nail your coffin for good.Gosh! I want to be a Protestant. (uh, huh.)
..............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
I think the problem is actually that you loose track of the discussion somehow and you go off on irrelevant tangents.....It must stem from a lack of any real response to what I am saying.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.
This is good Andy:Faith, I'm glad we were in agreement a few posts back :)
I think the point here is not that you are being judged by your abilty in this life to not sin. The point is that we are judged by our response to God's call to love Him. We can only avoid sin by God's grace. I may not have this thought out correctly, but if we reject God's gift of grace and "sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins".
This is close to what I am saying--except that we are judged not by our ability to love God--but by whether or not we received Jesus Christ as our substitutionary sacrifice.
We must repent and choose God who will "cleanse us from all iniquity". Every day we have choices to make. We sometimes make bad choices and sin, but God's grace is always there for us, if we choose it. It's not that God is judging our ability to avoid sin, I look at it as a loving Father (God) allowing us to choose to love Him or not.
Again--an important factor that you seem to not be saying is "Jesus Christ" It is Jesus who cleanses us with His blood. It is not that God is judging our ability to not sin--you are correct. He judges us by whether we are covered and protected in His Son.
The reason there is no other sacrifice for sin is because Jesus is it. If we miss that--we have nowhere to turn.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.
Faith show me where I go "off tangent"..................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
This is what we are talking about:"I DO believe that once you are saved you cannot be unsaved. God wouldn't promise eternal life and then take it away. "
My posts are directly related to this topic. You are right. I cannot understand why you think I'm going of tangent. I'm going off the doctrine you are trying to preach; that's all.
Stay kosher, girl.
............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
A person can lose their faith. Have a look at the church who lost their "Faith". You once had a Catholic beleif and then you lost it. Some had a Protestant belief and then they lost it to become Catholic. So, where does that put your Protestant idea of people "never having faith in the first place"? Uh, this is still on topic, Faith. Try to keep up with me..................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
It is your "Sola Fide" that has become the issue in this thread dealing with Salvation..................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
".... God wouldn't promise eternal life and then take it away. "No, it is man's own design that he falls from Grace. Your understanding deals with "Sola Fide" as the sole requirement. I do not agree with your view. Nonetheless, it isn't God pulling the plug on our Salvation. It is those false doctrines. You say Catholicism is false; I say "Sola Scriptura" is false. Hello!
...................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
oops! Let me say it again, I say "Sola Fide" is false. I can add "Sola Gratia", too. "Sola" anything is false. Go back to the Catholic Church to rediscover why the 3 big "Solas" are not acceptable....................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
You have the floor,Faith. I'm going camping.............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
Sorry Faith. That's my Trinitarian view coming out. ;) I use Jesus and God interchangeably when to be clear I should probably distinguish between the persons of the Father and His Son and the Spirit.You said, He judges us by whether we are covered and protected in His Son.
But if we "sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins". In your jargon, I would not be protected by Jesus anymore if I continue to sin deliberately. Does God take away our free will to choose Him or not after we are "saved"?
On a side note: in my view, sinning means we reject Christ. When we repent and turn back to Him we are truly washed clean by His blood, we are cleansed "from all iniquity" not just covered up and protected again. But that's a discussion for another thread.
Here's the difference in our views as I see it. You say we are saved (meaning we are free from the power of sin) by being born again and nothing we do can take away that salvation. Correct me if I paraphrased you wrongly here.
I say we are "saved" (i.e., born again) and incorporated into the body of Christ in baptism. Nothing we do can take that baptism away from us. However, God allows us to freely choose Him even after baptism. If we reject His Son (by sinning), we reject Him and His freely offered grace with the promise of eternal life. It is by our own choice that this happens. This view to me is more in line with Scripture, especially references to holding "steadfast to the end" and being "judged, every one according to their works" than the "once saved always saved" doctrine as I understand it (cf Heb 3:12-14, 10:26-29; 2 Pet 2 19-22; 1 John 2 24-25; Mt 7:20-24, 25:32-46; Rev 14:13, 16:11, 20:11-15, and 22:12)
You also said, But are works--whether good or bad will be judged. If they burn up-- we receive nothing--if they survive the fire--we are rewarded in heaven. That is what I gather from the Scriptures...
What exactly do you mean by "rewarded in heaven"? If we already have eternal life because we are saved no matter what deeds we do, then how are we rewarded in heaven if we already have eternal life? Are there varying degrees of eternal bliss?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 24, 2004.
I'm back from camping.Faith wrote:
"As a forgiven sinner--we are empowered by the strength of Him who saved us. A truly saved person cannot commit murder...
Confessing that murder on your death bed is going to do nothing for you if you are not found to be in Christ. What we need to confess on our death bed--if we never did so before is that Christ is Lord and Savior. We need to receive Him. "
Why would a non-believer ever wish to confess his sins to Christ? Logic tells us that by his confessing of sins to Christ is an acceptance that Christ is his Redeemer. Only Christ can forgive sins and no other can do such a thing. Because the non-believer confesses to Christ, the non-beleiver has entered into a condition of faith. By all concerned, this pretty much shows evidence of faith. So, it is illogical to say that a "non-believer" would confess his sins to Christ. A "non-believer" would not think he had any sins to confess. Atheists don't think they have sins that need confessing, do they?
..................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
Is Confession one of those works that shows evidence of faith in Christ?Do all Protestants confess their sins to Christ?
Are works needed or not?
(I am not off on an irrelavant tangent, Faith. This is part of the Salvation Plan. We must confess our sins if we wish to remain in God's grace.)
............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
But if we "sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins". In your jargon, I would not be protected by Jesus anymore if I continue to sin deliberately. Does God take away our free will to choose Him or not after we are "saved"?I think willfully sinning after we have heard the truth of the gospel- -means that we reject it. Even the demons believe the gospel is true [James 2:19]...There is a difference between head knowledge--knowing something is true; verses a true acceptance--truly believing in Jesus and not just knowing it is true. Receiving Him into your heart.
On a side note: in my view, sinning means we reject Christ. When we repent and turn back to Him we are truly washed clean by His blood, we are cleansed "from all iniquity" not just covered up and protected again. But that's a discussion for another thread.
This would mean that you think someone can know the truth and except it in their heart of hearts--and then, just suddenly reject it for a time--and then just keep coming and going about it? I think that true salvation is a conviction that we cannot escape. Oncve you are truly saved--you would never rejct Him. It is impossible, in my opinion. So I think your first sentence is quite correct: sinning means we reject Christ.
Here's the difference in our views as I see it. You say we are saved (meaning we are free from the power of sin) by being born again and nothing we do can take away that salvation. Correct me if I paraphrased you wrongly here.
I'd say that this is true--based on this: John 10:25-30
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
*My sheep* listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; *no one* can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
To me--this is a powerful verse. Jesus basically says that true believers cannot be lost. Sin is the work of the devil--he deceives people into following him. But jesus says that the devil cannot touch those who truly are His.
I say we are "saved" (i.e., born again) and incorporated into the body of Christ in baptism. Nothing we do can take that baptism away from us. However, God allows us to freely choose Him even after baptism. If we reject His Son (by sinning), we reject Him and His freely offered grace with the promise of eternal life.
Yeah--no, I definately disagree with this. I believe in free-will., don't get me wrong. I just think that true salvation and the power of the gospel to convict our souls is a lot stronger than you think. Once you are born-again., if it is real., there is no turning back. Not because you aren't free to do so--but because you never would want to.
It is by our own choice that this happens. This view to me is more in line with Scripture, especially references to holding "steadfast to the end" and being "judged, every one according to their works" than the "once saved always saved" doctrine as I understand it (cf Heb 3:12-14, 10:26-29; 2 Pet 2 19-22; 1 John 2 24- 25; Mt 7:20-24, 25:32-46; Rev 14:13, 16:11, 20:11-15, and 22:12)
Well in this you almost answer your next question. What do you think the *judgement* that you mention above, is about? Surely it is not about salvation because true Christian believers are already judged *saved* in Christ. There is no condemnation for us. So what could this judgement be about? It clearly says that it is our *works* that are being judged.
You also said, But are works--whether good or bad will be judged. If they burn up-- we receive nothing--if they survive the fire--we are rewarded in heaven. That is what I gather from the Scriptures...
What exactly do you mean by "rewarded in heaven"? If we already have eternal life because we are saved no matter what deeds we do, then how are we rewarded in heaven if we already have eternal life? Are there varying degrees of eternal bliss?
Yes--I think there is., though the Bible doessn't get into too much detail...it says things like:
Matt 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
That verse doesn't say great is your reward which is heaven--it says you will be rewarded in heaven.
And here:
1 Cor 3:6-9
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
In this verse above--clearly these are all Christians who are saved...already will go to heaven. It seems that there are different rewards though--for each of us--based on our works. The Bible doesn't say what these rewards are.
Eph 6:7-8
"Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free."
I mean--don't take me wrong here. I agree that eternal life is definately a blessing and reward that we receive because of salvation. I just get the impression that there are other rewards in heaven too., based on our works.
I think of the verse that your church uses to supposedly confirm such a place a purgatory...
1 Cor 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
To me--this verse is clearly speaking of rewards other than eternal through salvation. Clearly both the possibilities in this verse are about a man who was saved either way. His works are being judged....
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.
RodWhen I went through my atheist phase, I still recognised "wrong" things I did as being "sins." Probably remnents from my background. But while I felt no need to confess them,--- I also had no desire to continue to commit them.
I did not view "not believing," missing mass or holy days of obligation as being sinful during those years.
But still, I used the imagery of "sin" to guide me in what I continued to view as a moral life. I was an atheist who could sin. As a believer I still think I can sin and could lose salvation as a result. I find consolation in following the teachings as I've learned them and continue to try to work things out. I don't think I'm cut out for epiphanies. Salvation seems to me to be a continuous process. Maybe not for all, some here see it differently- -- maybe we are "saved in different ways.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 24, 2004.
If you think "sin", then you were still a believer , even though not 100 %, Jim.Atheists don't believe in sin but in evil acts.
I don't think you were Atheist 100 % rather a 15%.
Our friend Laurent is 60% Atheist though he sounds 95%.
Ooga is 97%.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.
Elpidio-I promice you I was at least 95% and even to this day I argue with myself about my current percentages.
I think my belief in the term "sin" was a vestage of my Catholic up bringing. But one even when I shuned it, and poo-pooed it, and was ashamed of it as an intellectual, I was never comfortable throwing away. Ultimately its not all wrong.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 24, 2004.
Faith,I think you're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. It seems that you're reading Scripture with the OSAS (once saved always saved) doctrine in mind. Every passage you quote is interpreted in light of this doctrine. If you were to forget that doctrine for a bit and read the verses again, the "rewards" you speak of could be taken as eternal life itself. It's only by first accepting OSAS that you may then interpret those verses the way you do.
You yourself emphasized the most important part of the passage.
"My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me."
Also, in John 10:4 "...and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice."
Are we still Christ's sheep if we do not know his voice and follow him? No one can snatch us from Christ's hand if we hear his voice, and he knows us and we follow him.
Are we still Christ's, does he still know us if we sin? Do we still have the promise of eternal life?
Mt 7:22-23
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
If we sin we commit iniquity.
1 John 3:2-6
1Jo 3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:3 And every one that hath this hope in him sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin committeth also iniquity. And sin is iniquity.
1Jo 3:5 And you know that he appeared to take away our sins: and in him there is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: and whosoever sinneth hath not seen him nor known him.
But the voice of Christ's divine mercy is always there, calling us.
1 John 1:7-10
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another: And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar: and his word is not in us.
Which begs the question, what if we don't repent, confess our sins, and ask for forgiveness? How then are we cleansed from all iniquity?
I think Christ's words are clear that if we work iniquity, we are not hearing his voice and we are not following Him. That is why we must open our ears, answer His call, and repent. Then we remain one of His sheep.
To show that we can stop listening to His voice and stop following Him if we choose to, Christ gave us the parable of the lost sheep and the sheep and the goats. In the lost sheep He also shows that even when we are lost by our own choice he is still calling us, searching for us to come back to the flock. But we have to trust in Him, answer His call, and allow Him to lift us up and carry us back.
You said, I believe in free-will., don't get me wrong. I just think that true salvation and the power of the gospel to convict our souls is a lot stronger than you think. Once you are born-again., if it is real., there is no turning back. Not because you aren't free to do so--but because you never would want to.
I don't think Paul had this in mind when he wrote to the Hebrew believers "For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries."
Why write this to people who are already saved and wouldn't want to sin? Why would someone with a great marriage and everything anyone could hope for commit adultery? You can only ask yourself, what was this person thinking when he did that? People can always fall into temptation and sin.
Paul exhorts the believers of Corinth
1Co 6:9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: 1Co 6:10 Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.
Later on he says
1Co 6:15 Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid!
1Co 6:16 Or know you not that he who is joined to a harlot is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Fly fornication. Every sin that a man doth is without the body: but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or know you not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God: and you are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body.
Paul doesn't tell the Corinthians that their born again experience wasn't real and that they should try again because they continue sinning. He assumes they are believers and warns them against sinning. Why do this if he believed in OSAS? God always allows us to choose Him freely. Doesn't saying that we would never want to sin again effectively take away our free will? Is saying that we would never want to sin again mean that we never could or would? It makes sense that someone who believes in Christ and loves Him would not want to sin. But being humans, we aren't perfect and we can fall into temptation when we stop leaning on Christ. There's always the devil, the world, and our own flesh to contend with, by the grace of God.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 25, 2004.
By the way Faith, I forgot to mention that I agree with you. :)
I agree that eternal life is definately a blessing and reward that we receive because of salvation. I just get the impression that there are other rewards in heaven too., based on our works.
I didn't want that to get lost in my ranting about OSAS.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 25, 2004.
Hi Andy..,I never adopted the once saved always saved notion first--and then applied it to the verses in Scripture. I simply agree with the idea that once you are saved--you are always saved...because of Scripture. It is an overall revelation to me.
I think the bottom line is that those who are truly saved--are known by Gof from before the time He created us...In Hid foreknowledge He knows us. This is why we can't be lost. We are predestined to these such blessing before we were even born.
So I stand by the idea that once saved--always saved.
The trick is in determining if that salvation is real or not. Those who deliberately sin and who reject Christ after supposedly accepting Him--are probably not really saved from the begining. They just *thought* they were. There are many people who lay claim to Christ-- but their claim is false--and that is why they will hear, "Depart from me--for I never knew you." A personal relationship with Christ--through His Word is essential for salvation. Once this relationship exists--it cannot be severed if it is real.
The evidence of this relationship will be seen in your response and the fruit you bear---but it is not this fruit that saves you. The fruit is the result of your salvation.
The reason that the sheep/believers follow Jesus is not to be saved.., but because they are saved. The verses says it plainly...
"My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me."
If Jesus knows us--then we have a relationship with Him--and this is why we follow.
These verses that you provide:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
These simply confirm to me that there are many who claim Christ--but are actually not saved. It isn't that they were saved and then lost their salvation. They simply never knew Christ. I have often thought that this verse speaks to the Catholic Church. Because it is the Catholic Church that lays claim to Christ in an exclusionary manner and does claim to cast out devils and perform miracles [such as Transubstantiation]. But if they are wrong about what they claim-- this verse will ring loud and clear on that last day.
And again here., you provide confimation that the point is that we must know Christ in order to be saved. It is not about our performance:
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: and whosoever sinneth hath not seen him nor known him.
You said with respect to John 1:7-10:
Which begs the question, what if we don't repent, confess our sins, and ask for forgiveness? How then are we cleansed from all iniquity?
I think we need to remember that salvation is from original sin. Forgiveness of these such sins in our life is not unto salvation. Believers are already saved--they are freed from the power of sin-- but they need to work out their salvation. They need to apply that power and resist. And when we mess up--which we will., then we can come before the throne of God--in Christ's name and ask forgiveness. But there has to be sincerity. The sinning cannot be deliberate.
I think Paul is revealing the difference.
I think Christ's words are clear that if we work iniquity, we are not hearing his voice and we are not following Him. That is why we must open our ears, answer His call, and repent. Then we remain one of His sheep.
There is nothing in these verses that speaks to our salvation or threat of a loss of it. It is simply making a distinction between those who truly know Christ--and those who don't.
To show that we can stop listening to His voice and stop following Him if we choose to, Christ gave us the parable of the lost sheep and the sheep and the goats. In the lost sheep He also shows that even when we are lost by our own choice he is still calling us, searching for us to come back to the flock. But we have to trust in Him, answer His call, and allow Him to lift us up and carry us back.
Lost sheep are lost. They are not saved t0o begin with. They wandered away from the group because they did not know their master...they did not hear Him or follow Him.
You said, I believe in free-will., don't get me wrong. I just think that true salvation and the power of the gospel to convict our souls is a lot stronger than you think. Once you are born-again., if it is real., there is no turning back. Not because you aren't free to do so--but because you never would want to.
I don't think Paul had this in mind when he wrote to the Hebrew believers "For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries."
Ya see--I do. Paul did not say if we willfully sin after receiving Christ--already being saved then there is no sacrifice left. Paul is refering to people who have heard the truth of the gospel--but have rejected it--as evidenced in their behavior.
And he is telling them in a sense.,"What will you do now. You have rejected the only thing that can save you. There is no other sacrifice but that of Jesus Christ."
Why write this to people who are already saved and wouldn't want to sin? Why would someone with a great marriage and everything anyone could hope for commit adultery? You can only ask yourself, what was this person thinking when he did that? People can always fall into temptation and sin.
Again--I don't think that this message was meant for those who were already saved. And I also do not think that we lose our salvation if we do sin. I think Paul was defining the difference...deliberate sinning is different.
Paul exhorts the believers of Corinth
1Co 6:9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: 1Co 6:10 Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God.
Paul may be addressing the church--but he knows that there are many seekers and unbelievers who attend church. He is pointing out the difference. The sins he describes are not the actions or behaviors of those who truly know God.
1Co 6:11 And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.
Later on he says
1Co 6:15 Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid!
1Co 6:16 Or know you not that he who is joined to a harlot is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Fly fornication. Every sin that a man doth is without the body: but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or know you not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God: and you are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body.
Paul doesn't tell the Corinthians that their born again experience wasn't real and that they should try again because they continue sinning. He assumes they are believers and warns them against sinning. Why do this if he believed in OSAS? God always allows us to choose Him freely. Doesn't saying that we would never want to sin again effectively take away our free will? Is saying that we would never want to sin again mean that we never could or would? It makes sense that someone who believes in Christ and loves Him would not want to sin. But being humans, we aren't perfect and we can fall into temptation when we stop leaning on Christ. There's always the devil, the world, and our own flesh to contend with, by the grace of God.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 25, 2004.
-- ('faith01@myway.com"), September 25, 2004.
Oops Andy--I forgot to erase your name from my copy/paste in the above response.Faith
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 25, 2004.
Faith,I see what you're saying but still think you're applying OSAS to Scripture and then coming away with your interpretations. I'm probably doing the same thing with my beliefs. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree for now and allow the Spirit to convict our hearts to the truth.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 25, 2004.
Oops Andy--I forgot to erase your name from my copy/paste in the above response.No prob :)
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 25, 2004.
Here is the rest of what I forgot to address:Later on he says
1Co 6:15 Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid!
1Co 6:16 Or know you not that he who is joined to a harlot is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.
Again--I just see Paul defining the difference. Clearly we cannot be both joined to the Lord and to a prostitute...Remember that there was a problem with the people at Corinth because they also had a temple to the goddess Aphrodite. This temple employed prostitutes and priestesses--and sex was a part of their worship ritual. Paul was clearly defin8ing for them--the difference., and that Christians were not to be a part of the sexual immorality there.
1Co 6:18 Fly fornication. Every sin that a man doth is without the body: but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or know you not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God: and you are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body.
Paul doesn't tell the Corinthians that their born again experience wasn't real and that they should try again because they continue sinning. He assumes they are believers and warns them against sinning.
No--Paul is merely defining the difference for a people in a culture that said such immorality is popular and okay. He is speaking to a mixed bag of people--not just believers....
Why do this if he believed in OSAS? God always allows us to choose Him freely. Doesn't saying that we would never want to sin again effectively take away our free will? Is saying that we would never want to sin again mean that we never could or would? It makes sense that someone who believes in Christ and loves Him would not want to sin. But being humans, we aren't perfect and we can fall into temptation when we stop leaning on Christ. There's always the devil, the world, and our own flesh to contend with, by the grace of God.
I agree that we will mess up. This is not what Paul is addressing and salvation doesn't seem to be the issue.
He is defining the difference between a Christian--and pagan worshiper.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 25, 2004.
Faith says:"A truly saved sinner will work out their salvation--becoming more and more Christ-like in their lives. If we do not show the fruit of the spirit in our walk with Christ--then we can doubt the valitiy of the supposed salvation."
This sounds almost like faith and works, but I will let that go for the moment. What are the specific fruits that one looks for to determine whether or not one is saved? My question here is getting at the line of demarcation, what specific fruits do you look for to determine whether or not someone is saved. Is forgiveness one of those fruits. After all, Mother Teresa had fruit, but I am told by people who claimed to be saved that an athiest could have done what she has done. So to them, she has no fruit.
-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 25, 2004.
James..,I would say it is more like faith then works.
The works are the result of faith. And I think it is importannt to clarify what that faith is--and who it is in--in order to determine whether someone is saved.
Works alone will not tell us because as you pointed out--atheists can do good work as well.
I guess it boils down to who are you doing the work for? Is it for God/ Or is it for self-glorification.
I really can't say anything about Mother Teresa. I assume she had faith in Jesus Christ to save her and that her works were a response to Him.
But if she didn't understand the gospel and didn't have a relationship with Jesus Christ--and if she did her good deeds in order to earn her way to heaven--then she may be lost. I can't really say. I don't know what her personal relationship with Jesus was...
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 25, 2004.
No-one earns their way to heaven. Every Catholic knows that, so Mother Teresa certainly knew it. Her personal relationship with Jesus Christ was evident through the complete Christian life she led, a life of deep faith and exceptional good works as the Word of God requires. If she only performed humanitarian acts, but did not have a deep and abiding faith, that would not be a complete Christian life, and she would not be considered a holy woman of God. If she believed in Christ as her personal Lord and Savior but didn't live a life of service to others, that would not be a complete Christian life, and she would not be considered a holy woman of God. Salvation depends on a full and active response to Christ, a complete giving of self. That means believing in Christ as Lord and Savior, AND living as though you believe. If you don't believe it, doing it has no spiritual value. If you don't do it, believing it has no spiritual value. You can't separate one from the other.Faith leads to works. Works build faith. Many people experience the first spark of faith as a result of participating in some service activity sponsored by the Church. They join us because of humanitarian concern for others, but by participating in such Christ-centered works they discover something more - faith. And that seed of faith continues to grow, IF they continue to participate in the life of the Church. That means DOING something; and DOING something is what is meant by "works". If they DO nothing, the spark of faith simply dies out. Faith cannot grow in the absence of works, and life cannot exist in the absence of growth. That's why the Word of God tells us that faith in the absence of works is dead - non-growing, non-living, non-saving, non-existing. Works in the absence of faith are just as spiritually dead as faith in the absence of works. In the final analysis, faith and works are completely interdependent. Each is the means through which people find the other. Each is the means of endurance and growth in the other. Neither can exist without the other. Which is why both are equally essential. The two together consitute the Christian life. The absence of either one means the absence of both, and therefore the absence of the Christian life. Salvation requires our response to Christ, and the Christian life is that response. One who is responding to Christ and following Him necessarily has a life of faith and good works. One who lacks either faith or good works lacks both, and therefore lacks the Christian life and is not following Christ. Arguing whether faith or works is more essential to spiritual health and salvation is like arguing whether a heart or a brain is more essential to physical health. If you lack either one, you are dead. Therefore there is little point in saying that one is more important than the other.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 25, 2004.
Mother Teresa's work, will, and faith are/were quite evident to the world...................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2004.
"Mother Teresa's work, will, and faith are/were quite evident to the world."This may be true however, the world does not save someone.
What matters is whether or not she did what God specifically commanded in His word what one must do to be saved. This she did "not" do for God specifically states that obedience to the gospel is required and Catholics do not obey the gospel. They would rather follow some man (the pope) and do what he says what one must do in order to be saved rather than what God has specifically revealed in His word.
One can do all kinds of good works and still hear the words, "depart from Me, I never knew you".
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 01, 2004.
But notice Kevin--that they were told to depart, not because their works didn't measure up or anything like that--but because Jesus says he never "knew" them.There is only one way to know Jesus--and that is through a personal relationship with Him when you are born-again by faith.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 01, 2004.
"One can do all kinds of good works and still hear the words, "depart from Me, I never knew you".A: That is most certainly true. Mere humanitarianism doesn't save anyone. However, it is just as true that one who claims to be a Christian but has no good works to show cannot be saved, for such a person is unrighteous, and only the righteous can be saved.
"Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye DID IT NOT to one of the least of these, ye DID IT NOT to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the RIGHTEOUS into life eternal. (Matthew 25:44-46)
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone'. (James 2:24)
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 01, 2004.
PaulI'm glad you stop by this forum from time to time. I am comfortable here but don't know didley from a Catholic point of view.
I am also aware that you know how it works here too. More than some.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 02, 2004.
Jim said: I am also aware that you know how it works here too. More than some.Jim, what are you talking about? Apparently I am one of those "some" who are not in the know, because this one went over my head. Can you elaborate?
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 02, 2004.
Paul--I think Jesus is clarifying the difference between someone who is truly saved by faith and someone who is not.Those who are truly saved do reveal that in their actions.
Those who claim they are saved--but would walk past a hungry person., are not truly His. That is His point. He points to a personal relationship with those who are His.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 02, 2004.
Right! And therefore faith and works are equally essential for salvation. Not in the sense that either of them produces salvation - we can't save ourselves either by doing works or by believing - but in the sense that a person lacking either faith OR works cannot be saved, because a person lacking either of them lacks both of them.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 02, 2004.
Hi Emily,I apparently got distracted and left a sentence out. That part of my post makes no sense, --- and today I'm not sure what I was driving at yesterday.
If it comes to me, I'll try to clarify. For now its still a mystery.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 02, 2004.
P.S. Emily,The first part of my post is just an admission of the comparitive ignorance I feel about my understanding of my own religion. I was raised Catholic, and attended Catholic institutions from grammar school to graduate school. You as a recent convert show a far greater and deeper understanding of Catholicism than me.
I respect that and find your contributions to be quite helpful.
-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 02, 2004.
No., I disagree Paul--since that Scriptures say that it is by faith that we are saved--so that no one can boast.Once saved--we respond with good works.
Good works done by anyone who does not have faith--cannot please God. They are as filthy rags.
And anyone who claims that they have faith, but you see no fruit--is most likely not saved because their faith is deadd, not real.
You will know a Christian by their fruit.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 02, 2004.
"And anyone who claims that they have faith, but you see no fruit--is most likely not saved because their faith is deadd, not real."A: Yes. Therefore, anyone without fruit to show cannot be saved.
Therefore the presence of such fruit is necessary for salvation.
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)
"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead". (James 2:26)
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." (Revelation 20:13)
That judgment is described in detail in Matt 25:34-46, which is completely about works. Faith is not even mentioned here.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 02, 2004.
Paul--you cannot say that the judgement in Rev. 20 is the same as the judgement in Matt 25.The dead are judged accordingly--as they are unbelievers.
But by this point in Rev. 20--Christians are already seated with Christ and doing this judging with Him.
Christians--those who are saved--do not face a judgement like that. There is no condemnation for those found in Christ--as we see in Matt. 25. Jesus separates the sheeps from the goats.
Christians do face a judgement of their deeds unto rewards...those whose deeds hold up through the fire are rewarded in heaven. Those whose deeds burn up are still saved, though with no reward.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 02, 2004.
What does the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant teach?A servant owed the king ten thousand talents. The King demanded that he and his family be sold to repay the debt, but when the servant fell on his knees and asked for patience...
Matthew 18 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
Now the servant goes and finds a fellow worker who owes him only a hundred denarii. But the forgiven servant chokes him and demands repayment! When the other man askes for patience...
Matthew 18 he refused. Instead he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could repay the debt.
So then the King finds out about this and brings the servant he forgave to him and says
Matthew 18 "you wicked servant. I cancelled all that debt of yours...
notice he called the forgiven servant wicked
Matthew 18 In his anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured until he should pay back all he owed.
and then Jesus finishes by saying "this is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 02, 2004.
Faith, according to your doctrine, this man only *thought* he was forgiven, but he really wasn't. And the King only pretended to cancel the debt? Jesus clearly teaches that our actions, indeed our works we perform after the forgiveness do matter to our eternal state, not simply in the exclusion of rewards, but in the determinating of our home, either eternity in Heaven, or eternity in Hell.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 02, 2004.
It is absolutely essential to remember that the works Paul contrasted against faith with are the works of law, or legalism. It doesn't matter how much money I give to the church or how many homeless shelters i volunteer at or how many times I say "God Bless You." These things are good, but will perish with me if I have no relationship with Jesus. However, if I work these things, having been forgiven of my sins,(not Adam's and Eve's) I will be given more rewards in heaven. Jesus said that whoever offers a drink of water to a child will not loose his reward. But If we are trying to be justified and sanctified through these deeds, the sacrifice of Jesus becomes useless to us, and God's grace has no power.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 02, 2004.
On the other hand, James does teach that our *works* or actions are evidence before God and men of our Faith. In one aspect, our actions ARE our faith. Can we claim to live by faith, but react randomly based on our circumstances? If I say, "I will trust in God to place me in a work environment that he wants me in," but then I take the matter into my own hands, taking what seems to be best for me, am I living by faith? Certainly not.To live by faith means to do by faith.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 02, 2004.
"Those whose deeds burn up are still saved, though with no reward."A: Being saved is the same as receiving the ultimate reward - eternity in the intimate presence of God. Having received that reward, what else could possibly matter? What "other" rewards could possibly mean anything? Do some people get a more comfortable seat before the throne of God? Heaven IS the reward. The ONLY reward that matters. Hell is the absence of that reward.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 03, 2004.
Scripture reveals that in heaven--which is reward enough--I agree.., that there are rewards according to our deeds.Eternal life is the reward of our salvation.
But clearly--there are rewards of other kinds indicated, though the Bible is not specific. Perhaps we receive different levels of authority in heaven, based on how we utilized the positions we were given on earth--I don't know.
The Bible says that if we do good with little things we are entrusted with here on earth--great will be the things we are entrusted with in heaven.
Matt 25:19-21
"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.' "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 03, 2004.
Gee Faith,That sounds a bit like the Apostles' argument over who would be greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven - or John and James asking for a special place in heaven. In both cases Jesus put down the idea that anyone would have any special recognition. Again, what could be more special than simply being in heaven? What else could possibly matter? What could make heaven "better"?
Concerning special rewards for our good works, Jesus had this to say ...
"He does not thank the servant because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have done only that which we ought to have done.' " (Luke 17:9-10)
I don't see any mention of special goodies there.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 04, 2004.
Paul,You can ignore the clear Scripture verses that reveal that we are rewarded in heavenn based on our deeds, if you want to.
It really doesn't matter to me. God reveals things to me that you don't seem to see.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.
"Fight the good fight of faith." - St. PaulFaith naturally fights. If faith fights then truly faith works.
If your "faith" doesn't fight then, whatever you have, it's not the true faith.
Our faith will be judged by our works. Those with works full of grace and mercy will receive grace and mercy. Those who mimic the works of the devil will receive what they deserve.
If you're enslaved to a sin, but yet you believe in Christ, the Father forgives that sin, but He disciplines you until you conform more and more to the likeness of Christ - the never-ending goal of your salvation.
Every Christian grows in sanctification. If you claim you do not grow in sanctification, then you've attained perfection, something not even St. Paul would claim. Instead, he claimed just the opposite... that he had not attained perfection yet. If you claim you're fully sanctified and that you never sin, or if you do not permit weakness in others, then you're a hypocrite and a liar and the Lord will discipline and humble you in due time if you're a child of His by faith.
Our works are a visible manifestion of our faith, just as Christ is the visible manifestion of God.
Only Christ's faith is perfect, therefore only Christ's works are perfect, but the truth faith strives to grow to maturity in Christ.
"It is not I who live, but Christ who lives in me." - St. Paul
If Christ lives in you, then really it's a matter of how much we yield to letting Christ's Spirit shine His light through us. That is why we must seek to not quench and grieve the Spirit as He continually attempts to express Himself through us - God's children of Light.
God Bless.
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.