Question about my mother

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

Good Morning Ya'll. My mother is having a very difficult time with our conversion. She refuses to listen to me or even read any material I give her from the church. She has stated very plainly that when alone with the children she will teach them her verision of truth. (I have almost decided to not leave them alone with her. She will visit, but I will remain in the house with htem while she is here.) My husband's mother is Baptist too, and while she says it isn't her religion (Catholic), it also isn't her decision to make or her place to tell the kids anything contrary to what their father and myself teach them. Mother isn't coming to Michael's Baptism. She siad she will also not come to his first communion next year or any programs he does concerning the church. I do not know what to do or how to handle the situation in a respectful way. And the thing that bothers me most is I wonder since she isn't in the church, but believes and was baptized herself as a teen, is she saved? I know the church recognizes our baptisms as valid, but will people of other [Christian] faiths be saved?

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), September 10, 2004

Answers

That's certainly a very difficult situation Suzanne. All you can really do is leave the matter in the Lord's hands, and keep the door and the lines of communication open at your end. She may not choose to use them, but at least let her know, by action rather than words, that any closing of doors will have to be done by her. Make sure she knows about important spiritual events in the lives of your children and family, and that she is invited. Beyond that, it is up to her. I wouldn't worry too much right now about her threat to undermine your teaching of the faith. She is speaking from a position of hurt and confusion, and hopefully in time she will be able to come to terms with that, and have enough respect for you and your family not to actually do such a thing. If it actually happens, you will have to confront her with it, and tell her that if it continues you may have to limit her accessibility to the children. But for now I wouldn't take action that is sure to cause hurt, and may not really be necessary.

Regarding her salvation, the Catholic Church teaches that "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (Catechism of the Catholic Church). Christ said the truth would set us free, and while the fullness of Christian truth exists only in the Church He personally founded, other Chistian churches also possess a measure of that truth, present in them as a result of their Catholic roots, and God can use that measure of truth, together with their sincerity in desiring to follow Him, to bring about their salvation.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 10, 2004.


Dear Suzanne: Paul explained to you very clearly the steps you must take in this difficult situation. I will not send you any more advice on the same subject. I just want you to know that my entire family is praying for you. Once again: welcome into the Catholic Church.

Let us know any other reaction of your former pastor. Wish he could also see the light some day!!

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), September 10, 2004.


Suzanne, I was raised and practiced as a Catholic for 20 years so I hope I can give you some helpful insight on your situation. I can sympathize with your story, but not for your mother, but yourself. I feel sorry that you have been misled. Have you ever read the Bible? I'm not being smart or rude, hear me out, please. I NEVER had read a Bible (King James) until a few months ago and was AMAZED at what I found. Here are a few verses you should read: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Rom.5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. ANYONE who believes on Jesus Christ as their Savior is saved. That is, he came and died for our sins. End of story. If you actually read the Bible instead of taking a man's word, which is all a priest, pope or preacher is, you will be amazed at the facts you will find. THE ONLY THING YOU OR ANYONE HAS TO DO TO BE SAVED IS BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST and that he died for our sins in your heart. And I say "Believe On Jesus as our savior" because even the devil "believed in" Jesus Christ. Do you believe he came and died for our sins and saved our souls from damnation? If you do within your heart and soul you are SAVED. End of Story. If you don't believe me, check out the story about the thief who was crucified next to Jesus. Luke 23:39-43 "And on of the malefactors which were hanging railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." It doesn't say, "Jesus said unto him today comma... as in some day when you are out of purgatory...etc. will I see you in paradise. It says: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." That very day. His soul was SAVED! Aren't you glad it didn't take Baptism? Aren't you glad it didn't take a change of life? Aren't you glad it didn't take confession or any of that other nonsense! For what good works did this thief perform to get to heaven other than asking the Lord and believing on him? I will not say sorry for rambling on and on because I feel you should learn the truth and judge for yourself about your salvation and your children, not ask some people who only know what a priest has told them. Your mom cares about you, you are her child. Would you really be that upset if the "church" says she's damned or the BIBLE, which is the word of God? When we die we are all judged by God. Not by your priest, or the pope or a preacher. Do your own research. And read the original Bible, not one of these new, changed and interpreted ones...don't be misled. God Bless, cassie mak

-- Cassie Mak (CassieMak@cfl.rr.com), September 12, 2004.

Sheesh...The same old rhetoric backed up with the same misundertood verses and a poor understanding of Catholic Doctrine.

Cassie, the thing is, that when we loose some of the Catholic faithfull to protestantism, they always seem to be very unknowledgeable in the Catholic faith such as yourself. But we end up gaining stronger more knowlegeable Catholics like suzanne will inevitably become from the protestant faith. I will pray for you however, so that you may one day return to the Catholic Church, "The Ground and Pillar of Truth".

-- D Joseph (newfiedufie@msn.com), September 12, 2004.


"I NEVER had read a Bible (King James) until a few months ago and was AMAZED at what I found."

A: You were a member of the Church that compiled the Bible, the Church that safeguarded and taught the Bible from the day the Bible came into existence, the only Church that had the Bible until recent history, for TWENTY YEARS, and NEVER READ it?? Why?? What kind of a Catholic were you? Did you attend Mass regularly when you were "Catholic"? If so, you heard practically the whole Bible read to you, even if you neglected reading it yourself. I'm sure you did find some AMAZING things when you started reading it with no source of authoritative interpretation. People interpreting the Bible on their own have found so many different amazing things that they have fragmented into thousands of conflicting manmade denominations, in direct violation of the stated will of God - "that they all may be ONE". Which fragment do you associate yourself with?

Here are a few verses you should read:

John 16:13 (Jesus speaking to the leaders of the Church He founded) ... "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL TRUTH"

Matthew 18:18 (Jesus speaking to the leaders of the Church He founded) ..."Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.."

Matthew 16:19 (Jesus speaking to the one man He placed in headship over the Church He founded)... "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Luke 10:16 (Jesus speaking to the leaders of the Church He founded) ... "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me".

1 Timothy 3:15 ... "that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth". [Why do you deny the Word of God by trying to force the Bible to be the pillar and ground of the truth, when the Bible says the Church is?]

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (God's own description of denominational religion) ... "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

"THE ONLY THING YOU OR ANYONE HAS TO DO TO BE SAVED IS BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST and that he died for our sins in your heart. And I say "Believe On Jesus as our savior" because even the devil "believed in" Jesus Christ"

A: The devil can also SAY "I believe on Jesus Christ as my savior", if it is convenient for him to do so, because he is the father of lies. Saying it doesn't mean a thing unless you also live it; and living it means what you DO, not just what you SAY. That's why Christ said those who don't DO Christian works of charity will go to hell, and "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven". (Matthew 7:21) "DOETH" means ACTION, not just belief. This basic truth is what prompted the Apostler James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to write "... are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is USELESS? (James 2:20), and "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". (James 2:24) Is the letter of James the inspired Word of God or not? If so, why do you reject it? Of course the founder of your tradition tried to remove James from the Holy Bible, so why should you respect the Word of God any more than he did?

"Do you believe he came and died for our sins and saved our souls from damnation?"

A: You are speaking to Catholics here. If we didn't believe that, neither would you. Every Christian truth you possess came to you from the Holy Catholic Church, which is the only place Christ deposited His message and His truth.

"If you do within your heart and soul you are SAVED. End of Story. If you don't believe me, check out the story about the thief who was crucified next to Jesus."

A: Actually Catholics "checked out" this Scripture and understood it for 1,500 years before any Protestant ever saw it and tried to interpret it. The point of the passage is that the insurrectionist who was crucified with Jesus had made a total commitment to following Christ, not just the superficial verbal response which manmade churches often require. As such he accepted baptism, good works, and everything else that Christ required of His followers. It was not his fault that his allotted lifespan prevented him from living out Matt 25 to the fullest. After all, a person who dies a week after accepting Christ is not expected to bear as much fruit as a person who has many years of life as a follower of Christ. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more". (Luke 12:48) This passage refers to everything we have been given - material possessions, talents, and time. The criminal on the cross did what he could do in his allotted time. Unfortunately what he had been given in that area was very small. Still, it was his total commitment to all that is required that allowed for his salvation. A verbal statement without that total commitment would have been dead faith, and therefore totally useless, just as the Bible tells us.

As for your statement "If you do within your heart and soul you are SAVED", sorry but no-one IS saved while still on this earth. That is a new tradition of men introduced by your founders a few hundred years ago. The Bible says "... he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". (Matthew 24:13) Note the future tense here ... SHALL be saved ... AFTER enduring to the end. For the present, all we can do is continued to work out our salvation day by day. Just as the Bible says we must.



-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 12, 2004.



i dont mean to gang up on cassie, but....

"THE ONLY THING YOU OR ANYONE HAS TO DO TO BE SAVED IS BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST and that he died for our sins in your heart."

gee-- how easy is this? i can truly believe this, but then embezzle from my company. would it be ok to do that-- after all, i DO believe....

cassie-- honestly, its the acts a person does, and the graces received from the sacraments that give a man true communion w/ GOd. im sorry, i just done believe someone can be "born again" and theyre "set for life", spiritually speaking.

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), September 13, 2004.


and just in case THIS post is the last in the thread, and that they may have missed what paul wrote:

"...sorry but no-one IS saved while still on this earth. That is a new tradition of men introduced by your founders a few hundred years ago. The Bible says "... he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". (Matthew 24:13) Note the future tense here ... SHALL be saved ... AFTER enduring to the end. For the present, all we can do is continued to work out our salvation day by day. Just as the Bible says we must."

excellent

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), September 13, 2004.


jas,

Here is the answer to your theological question. A Protestant would say that you could not be saved if you did those things because a true Christian would not. Actions inevitably come from faith according to Protestants.

However, this gives a unique problem for protestants. Are works not then required of faith?

I believe that this is why the Vatican and the Lutheran Federation have come out with a document of justification.

Here is the document.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), September 13, 2004.


Actions DO come from faith! And faith is built through actions! That's why faith and works are mutually interdependent and equally essential. How can a person's faith grow if he DOES NOTHING? Without faith, works are mere humanitarianism, lacking in spiritual value; and without works faith is an empty shell, without life or growth - which is why the Bible tells us that such faith is dead and useless.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 14, 2004.

Hello Ya'll. I remember being at camp once when I was 12 and the preacher was talking about salvation. And I remember him saying that "works" wouldn't save a man; only faith. I walked up to the stage and "gave my life to Jesus". The next week I was back to being the same old terrible me that I had always been; the sale old spoiled, temper tantrum, I want my way, brat I had always been, but it didn't matter. I was assured that I had a place in heaven with Jesus. I could be the biggest brat on the planet and could be the worst smart-you know what to my parents and I was set....I was still going to heaven if I died that very minute. (I am so glad that God saw to it that I lived to be an adult.) If I had of died in my teens I know where I'd be. At first it was being smart to my parents and then on to total rebelion. I got pregnant at 15 and married so I could get away from their "rule" over me. I took to smoking and drinking after the baby was born ( luckily had enough brains not to use drugs)and so did my husband. We had 2 more babies (twins) by the time I was 17. After the twins were born we quit going to church altogether. We both had the attitude that we didn't need church and we didn't need God. Sheesh we had already been "saved". Why bother anymore? Then I remember Bradley's (my husband) cousin called on us one Saturday afternoon about a year after the twins were born and asked us to attend his church the next day. We went, albeit begrudgingly, but we went. His sermon was on Salvation. I don't know how many of you know much about the Church of Christ, but they teach faith and works and baptism unto salvation and it opened a new door for us. We began to realize that we had to be accountable for our sins. Just because we had proclaimed salvation and just because we had been baptized, it didn't mean squat without living as a Christian should live. Eventually, though, we quit going there too because under their beliefs we had to be rebaptized everytime we failed and it was taught that if you didn't become a member of the Church of Christ you were going straight to hell. Somehow we just didn't believe that. After 2 years of trying to "be good Christians" on our own my best friend finally stepped in and aske my husband and me if we would go to Mass with her. Bradley redily agreed. He said we haven't found "home" anywhere else; we might as well check it out and see what they have to teach us. What we learned was the whole truth. Not just bits and pieces compiled to "match" a certain demoniation's beliefs. From the first Mass we could feel a tug toward truth. Something we had never felt before. We both felt like, "Ohhhhh this is what was missing." I have lived on "faith" without works, and I know where that leads a person. In life it leads you straight to nowhere and in eternity, to hell. Faith without works IS dead. There is no question about it. I hope any of you reading this who believe that all that is needed is faith will somehow be led to the truth, and that can be found at the Catholic Church; the Church that Jesus Christ Himself created for his people. May God bless you all today !

For all those along the La., Ms., Al., and Fl. coasts, know that our prayers are with you.

Thanks and glory be to God !

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), September 14, 2004.



Moderation questions? read the FAQ