Faith - Which is it?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Readers,
Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.
If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:
http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum
Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com
This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.
Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.
Faith, I posted this on another thread:
"You said,"1 John 5:1 confirms what I am saying. It does not support Calvins theory that we are regenerated or elected first--and then we can believe... "
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the [child] born of Him. (NASB)
You read the text as "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is [as a result of believing] born of God"
If you are going to accept that interpretation of those verses, you must accept these as well with the same interpretation.
1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is [as a result of practicing righteousness] born of Him. (NASB, brackets added)
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is [as a result of loving] born of God and knows God. (NASB, brackets added) ...
I would like you to comment on this.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2004
bump
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2004.
I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about salvation. Does it come by faith--or by regeneration?How you answer that--should shed some light on your questions above.
I think that the Bible reveals that we are all without excuse and do know God--because He has revealed Himself not only through His creation--but through Love. God is Love. And therefore anyone who loves--does know God--even if He doesn't realize that that is why he can know and give love.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 19, 2004.
"Does it come by faith--or by regeneration?"Faith,
One does not believe until they have been quickened by the Holy Spirit. We are saved by God's grace. Do you know what we mean by regeneration?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2004.
Yes I think I do.I believe that by regeneration is meant being born-again. Only-- according to the Scriptures--one is born again when they have placed their faith in Christ to save them. We are first saved by faith--and that is the moment that we are regenerated., or born-again.
In numerous places in the Bible we are told that upon believing in Christ according to the gospel we receive eternal life from God as a free gift.
******
Luke 8:12 ".... and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."
Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Romans 1:16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
1 Tim 1:16 "But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life."
How can one maintain that regeneration must preceed faith and thus salvation when the Bible clearly reveals that believing in Christ unto salvation is not the result of rebirth--but the cause of it?
Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-- and this not from yourselves, it [your salvation] is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
In order to support the idea that regeneration or being born-again preceeds faith-- you need to show that this rebirth is distinct from salvation.., that being born-again is different from and preceeds being saved.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 19, 2004.
Being born of God is more than a systematic decision. Being born of God comes as a result of His love overwhelming and slaying your old self and a new self that loves him now exists and trusts in Him and has faith in Him, even though the evidence seems contrary to the promise.Some choose to love against their natural tendency and some are overwhelmed by love to the point where they have a new natural tendency.
Falling in love with God is not a systematic thing. There's no recipe for it. There's no such thing as a "conveyor belt of love" like so many religionists like to preach.
If you think you've taken the correct steps to fall in love with God, you have no idea what love is. Love is an irresistable thing for those who've discovered it.
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.
Max.,Do you have any Scripture that reveals that man is born again by God overwhelming man's old self?
I have provided ample Scripture which reveals that man is born again through faith because he believes....
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 25, 2004.
"In order to support the idea that regeneration or being born-again preceeds faith-- you need to show that this rebirth is distinct from salvation.., that being born-again is different from and preceeds being saved." - FaithSimple: Do the unregenerate have the ablity to believe? (Read John 6 and find out)
I also believe you are confusing terms here, but I have to leave and do not have time to reply. I'll be back in a couple of hours (5 or 6).
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 25, 2004.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the [child] born of Him. (NASB)They believe because they are born of God. They don't believe to become born of God.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 25, 2004.
I disagree David..,The Scripture clearly says that whoever *believes* that Jesus is the Christ is born of God., not *whoever is born of God* believes that Jesus is the Christ.
It goes further to say that, conversely, whoever "loves" the Father loves the Son born of Him.., but nowhere do we read that anyone is unable to love the Father or to believe in the Son unless God first regenerates them. We read that regeneration comes by faith because we believe....
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 25, 2004.
>Do you have any Scripture that reveals that man is born again by God overwhelming man's old self? <This is an old post I guess, but I'll answer the question.
I have a scripture that shows that God opens our heart in order to believe.
Acts 16:14 "One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 04, 2004.
I think this is very strong evidence in favor of the Lord's work in regenerating a heart so that it can believe and respond to the gospel.
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 04, 2004.
Max..,One could argue that Lydia was already a believer. The Scripture says she was a worshiper of God.
What God did was he gave her the ability to discern the things in Scripture. That is what happens after we believe the gospel message.
God enables us to now discern the deeper truths revealed.
We know from other Scripture that after we believe the gospel--God sends the Holy Spirit in order that we might better understand.
-- ("faith01@my7way.com"), September 05, 2004.
Also Max..,This verse you provided doesn't say anything about the fact that God caused her to respond to the gospel. It is clear that she was already responding.
We also know that if a person is seeking God with all their heart, soul, and mind--that God reveals Himself to us. This is how God works. It is clear that this woman was gathered in hope, already believing God--she was a worshiper and she was seeking.
That's how it worked for me. I have always believed in God--since a child. But it was sitting in a church--seeking truth--where God revealed Himself to me while I was in the Scriptures and hearing the gospel message preached. Suddenly I believed and it became so crystal clear to me. But that didn't happen in my life until I was truly seeking.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 05, 2004.
>This verse you provided doesn't say anything about the fact that God caused her to respond to the gospel. It is clear that she was already responding.<God opened her heart. You have not responded to that fact.
>We also know that if a person is seeking God with all their heart, soul, and mind--that God reveals Himself to us.<
We also know that it's God Who draws us to His Son. Nobody can come to the Son unless the Father draws them. We also know that God can cause us to seek him by the life situations He puts us in. He can cause some to seek Him more than others.
> It is clear that this woman was gathered in hope, already believing God--she was a worshiper and she was seeking.<
She was a believer in God, but she did not have the revelation that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, UNTIL GOD OPENED HER HEART.
>But it was sitting in a church--seeking truth--where God revealed Himself to me while I was in the Scriptures and hearing the gospel message preached.<
It was God who caused you to seek Him. And it was God Who opened your heart, giving you the revelation of His Son.
> But that didn't happen in my life until I was truly seeking. <
Thankfully, God was able to direct your life situations and experiences in such a manner that you grew to seek Him.
>One could argue that Lydia was already a believer. The Scripture says she was a worshiper of God.<
Yes. Her heart was already prepared and cultivated by God so that when the Ultimate Truth arrived, God could open her heart and she responded willingly and believed. God opened her heart.
>What God did was he gave her the ability to discern the things in Scripture. That is what happens after we believe the gospel message. <
Discernment happens as we are coming to faith, otherwise we wouldn't even understand the gospel message... it would just be foolishness or a stumbling block if our the eyes of our heart weren't opened by God.
>God enables us to now discern the deeper truths revealed<
Yes, we are able to discern divine facts after we come to faith, but we are also able to discern divine facts AS we are coming to faith - AS we are being born again. How can one discern the Ultimate Truth, the Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, without some grace from above?
"Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father Who is in Heaven has."
You did not reveal the Divine Truth of the Identity of Jesus Christ to yourself. Only the Father did this by His Holy Spirit through power of the Living Word.
Thank God!
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 05, 2004.
Well Max,As a Catholic wannabe, I have no objection to the idea that God could work in people's hearts ahead of time or open them to receiving Him before they receive Christ. I believe that God reaches out to people at different times in their lives. But what I reject is the idea that God arbitrarily chooses some to be saved while abandoning the rest for hell.
Scripture says that God wants all people to be saved, so I believe that God offers salvation to everyone and opens our hearts to it. But He also gives us free will and some do reject God's offer. From my understanding, this is in line with Catholic teaching also. I'm not sure about Faith (Baptist, I think), but I think she would agree with me on this. What do you think, Faith?
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 05, 2004.
God opened her heart. You have not responded to that fact.Yes--but what doid God open her heart to, and why? You think he opened her heart to the truth about Jesus just because. And you think that He wouldn't do the same for everyone--but just His select. That sounds an awful lot like Calvinism.
I say God opened her heart to hear the deeper truths that Paul was revealing---because she first believed the gospel.
We also know that it's God Who draws us to His Son. Nobody can come to the Son unless the Father draws them. We also know that God can cause us to seek him by the life situations He puts us in. He can cause some to seek Him more than others.
The Bible never teaches that. We know that God could do whatever he wills. But the Bible tells us that He wills that all should come to a saving faith in His Son--and the Bible tells us that God draws all men. But because He created us in His image with a free will., He will never force anyone. He will persuade us. He has to probably work harder with some than others--and in the end, not all will believe. But not because God didn't want that one last soul.
She was a believer in God, but she did not have the revelation that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, UNTIL GOD OPENED HER HEART.
The verse doesn't really say that. The verse indicates that God honored her eager willingness to believe--by opening her heart to Paul's message. It would seem she was already a believer--and now God would bless her with the power to understand.
It was God who caused you to seek Him. And it was God Who opened your heart, giving you the revelation of His Son.
God does this for all of mankind. But ultimately--we must do the believing first. Then we are richly blessed.
Thankfully, God was able to direct your life situations and experiences in such a manner that you grew to seek Him.
Again--God does this in everyone's life. Not everyone responds though. Not because God doesn't want them to.
Yes. Her heart was already prepared and cultivated by God so that when the Ultimate Truth arrived, God could open her heart and she responded willingly and believed. God opened her heart.
He opened her heart because she first believed. I really don't think the gospel message is about discernment. It is a faith thing.
Discernment happens as we are coming to faith, otherwise we wouldn't even understand the gospel message... it would just be foolishness or a stumbling block if our the eyes of our heart weren't opened by God.
More Calvinistic thinking there Max. Discernment comes because we first believed and had faith. Then God blesses us with discernment.
Yes, we are able to discern divine facts after we come to faith, but we are also able to discern divine facts AS we are coming to faith - AS we are being born again. How can one discern the Ultimate Truth, the Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, without some grace from above?
The Bible never reveals that we come to believe because of some grace. God's grace goes out to those who believe. His forgiveness is offered to all who receive His Son by faith. Discernment is not needed to receive Christ. It is a faith thing. Faith comes to those who *hear* the gospel and believe. What discernment is needed to believe? None.
"Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father Who is in Heaven has."
As He has done for all of mankind by way of the cross.
You did not reveal the Divine Truth of the Identity of Jesus Christ to yourself. Only the Father did this by His Holy Spirit through power of the Living Word.
I could agree with the above statement. I think the difference between us is that I recognize that God does not withhold this from anyone.
1 John 2: 1-2
Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [believers], and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Thank God!
-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 05, 2004.
Yes Emily--we agree on this 100% : )
-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 05, 2004.
"Scripture says that God wants all people to be saved, so I believe that God offers salvation to everyone and opens our hearts to it." - EmilyWhat scriptures?
"But He also gives us free will and some do reject God's offer." - Emily
God gave us a "free will", but that will is limited by our nature. Tell me Emily, why do you believe while others don't? Is it because you are better than them?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 06, 2004.
Hmm? Does God fail when He calls some, but not others, to Him? Or, does man fail when he rejects God's calling?If it is a limited "free will", then has God failed to provide sufficiently? If God has not provided any degree of "free will" for man, then why does man fail in the first place?
God is not to blame.
...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 06, 2004.
If one takes a step towards God, God takes a step towards him/her...............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 06, 2004.
You to, read what I told Kevin in the "We Calvinists" thread. It will do you good.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 06, 2004.
But, David, I got that line from Scriptures, not from any popular modern-day commentator.Would you read the books I've read?
..................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 06, 2004.
>I say God opened her heart to hear the deeper truths that Paul was revealing---because she first believed the gospel.<God opened her heart to the gospel which Paul was preaching there on the banks of the river. He wasn't preaching anything else.
>The Bible never teaches that. We know that God could do whatever he wills. But the Bible tells us that He wills that all should come to a saving faith in His Son--and the Bible tells us that God draws all men. But because He created us in His image with a free will., He will never force anyone.<
I never said God "forced" us to believe. He persuades us and convinces us of the Truth. The Truth is something you realize, not something you simply believe or not believe whenever you feel like it. Jesus convinced St. Paul of His reality as the Son of God - albeit, through an event that might seem to you like God was forcing him to believe...
>He will persuade us. He has to probably work harder with some than others--and in the end, not all will believe.<
And some, God never even bothers to strive with, but lets them go their own way of rebellion. He allows these the most "free will" in allowing them to go their own way with very little hindrance.
>But not because God didn't want that one last soul.<
God doesn't know some souls. He let's them be themselves.
>The verse indicates that God honored her eager willingness to believe--by opening her heart to Paul's message.<
She had an eager willingness to believe - and God honored that eagerness to believe - by opening her heart and allowing her to believe.
>It would seem she was already a believer--and now God would bless her with the power to understand. <
No, she was not a believer in Jesus until after God opened her heart. Why try to get around it?
>God does this for all of mankind.<
God does not bring everyone special situations that cause them to seek Him. Some reject God even though they have creation as a witness that He exists. Some reject God even after they see a miracle. Some hearts are not prepared to receive the Truth. Some hearts are prepared to receive the Truth. Who prepared you? Who prepared St. Paul to believe? God has power to prepare our hearts.
>Again--God does this in everyone's life. Not everyone responds though.<
God doesn't move equally in everyone's life. That's easy to see.
>More Calvinistic thinking there Max.<
Why do people say "Calvinist" as if it's an automatic bad thing? as if you were labeling me a Gnostic, a Witch, or like some use the label Catholic in a negative sense. Weird...
>Discernment comes because we first believed and had faith. Then God blesses us with discernment.<
If you have not yet discerned the object of faith, how can you believe in it?
Discernment comes first, to discern the Object which calls for faith. Belief comes next, which clings to that Object.
You can't believe in what you do not yet know about. And you cannot know until you discern.
>Discernment is not needed to receive Christ.<
You need to discern that the gospel is true before you can believe it.
> What discernment is needed to believe? None.<
The smallest degree of discernment is needed to judge whether the gospel is true or not. You must be able to discern/judge that it's true before you can believe it.
>"Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father Who is in Heaven has."
As He has done for all of mankind by way of the cross.<
Uh... no. Not all mankind has the Revelation that Jesus is the Christ. Only believers have that personal Revelation. An atheist does not even believe in God, much less have the personal Revelation that Jesus is the Christ.
>
"You did not reveal the Divine Truth of the Identity of Jesus Christ to yourself. Only the Father did this by His Holy Spirit through power of the Living Word."
I could agree with the above statement. I think the difference between us is that I recognize that God does not withhold this from anyone. <
I know what you're saying. You're afraid that I think that God is trying hard to damn some people and that He'll do all He can to get them into hell. That's not my view.
>Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [believers], and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. <
First, I do not believe in limited atonement. Let me be clear on that.
Second, Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the entire world and bought every single human soul that ever and will ever exist. This is what gives Him the absolute authority to forgive or condemn... because all sins are sins against Him alone.
We are at Christ's mercy. He can forgive a soul or cast a soul into hell and destroy it according to His own Will. It's all up to Him.
When we realize we are at His complete mercy, through the message of the cross and resurrection and the judgment to come, we throw ourselves at His mercy (repent) and trust in His grace alone (faith.)
I know you know all this already. I'm just expressing it so you know we agree.
All we disagree over is the fact that I believe God has the power to reveal the light to whomever He wants. This does not mean He wants some to reject the light. They reject the light already and He leaves them in that state of rejection even though He gives them a certain amount of light.
Think about this: God could have left St. Paul in his state of rejection... but did He? What did Jesus do to take Paul out of his state of rejection?
Hint: He revealed Himself as the Son of God somehow and left very little room to believe otherwise.
People alone are guilty of rejecting God's light. God alone gets credit for bringing a believer into the light. That's my belief.
Maybe this is a good illustration:
God turns on the light switch in a man's heart. The man gives thanks that God has turned the light on in his heart. God gets full credit.
God turns the light switch on in another man's heart, but this man immediately turns off the light switch. The man stays in the dark and even blames God for the darkness, because God doesn't try harder to keep the switch on. This man gets full credit for his fate.
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 06, 2004.
In the illustration above, God could easily give the man even more light or could try harder to get the man to keep the light on, but God allows the man to reject the light he's been given. God is not to blame.God can give a ton of light to some, like the Apostle Paul - literally! And God can give very little light to others... like the Jews who were trying to kill him just like he once was trying to kill Christians.
-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 06, 2004.
Max, some need more light than others. Some just believe quite easily and don't go around killing Christians like Saul did. Some don't believe as easily and may continue to reject God until their death. Why would Mother Teresa need to be struck off a horse? It doesn't quite make any sense that God would need to give such a drastic cue to such a strong believer. Saul needed to be kicked off his horse for a reason. So, I can't believer that God would neglect one of His sheep and allow it to find his damnation. There are people who genuinely despise God for the life the think God has handed them. They blame God for their miserable lives. I guess they have to blame somebody cuz they sure ain't gonna blame themselves for the fine mess they are in. Hopefully, one day these poor souls will see the "Light" that God has already given us all.Again, if you are not a Calvinist, but have Calvinist tones, what are you?
............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 07, 2004.
You are wrong Max..,God does bring a special situation to all people. He sent His Son because He loves the World--all of mankind--that whosoever will believe--can see eternal life. That means that any and all are invited--and the cross is a sign offered to all people.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 07, 2004.
Also Max--Believing requires absolutely no proof or discernment. Faith grows when you believe something that can then be proven--in such ways as through fulfilled prophecy..or miracles or something of that nature. But belief and faith are not necessarily logically discerned first....
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 07, 2004.
Gosh! Faith. That's what I've been trying to tell Max. That evidence goes by the scientic jargon--"contructs". And, even those "contructs" require faith. But, we cannot explain why God exists yet we have faith that he does..............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 07, 2004.
(Uh, I was talking to another teacher.) Oops! make that "scientific". That "construct" requires the five sense, yes. But, it seems that the new trend in scientific methods is to take giant leaps of faith. For example, DNA research thinks of the DNA model as a double helix. That is because it is easier to understand and build upon that knowledge. Does it actually look like a double helix? It probably looks like a string of snot or something, not a beautifully contructed piece of geometry. But, we call if DNA because this is what man has created in his understandings..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 07, 2004.
I read a good quote from St Anselm recently. It goes something like this:
"For I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order that I may understand." Proslogion, Chapter One.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 07, 2004.
Emily said: Scripture says that God wants all people to be saved, so I believe that God offers salvation to everyone and opens our hearts to it." David said: What scriptures?2 Pet. 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2 (KJV) 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
David said: God gave us a "free will", but that will is limited by our nature. Tell me Emily, why do you believe while others don't? Is it because you are better than them?
I believe because God chose to give me the grace to believe. He gave me that free will to choose Him, and I did. I believe because I chose to accept His gift of grace, while others did not. The only way that I am "better" than them as you say, is because of God's grace to make me so.
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 07, 2004.
Emily, those are nice verses. :) Read them again, and tell me why "all men" means "every single individual".
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 07, 2004.
On 2 Peter 3:9:Emily, would you agree that it is important to ask who is being addressed here? Is it believers or non-believers?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 07, 2004.
David--It is a stretch to believe that when God says that He sent His Son to save the World--that He really only means an elect few.
If every verse that says all., whosoever and the world--really means that God only sent His Son to save the elect.., then how do you come to terms with this verse?:
1John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins {believers], and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 07, 2004.
The gospel according to a guy down the road:Somebody 3:16
"For a god kind of liked the world, that he sent his friend, that only a select group who believes in him should not perish but have a long life."
Commentary:
Our God loves the world. He gave His only begotten Son. Whoever--anyone and everyone--believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life.
Maybe, the elect are those who decided to believe and accept Christ, but not the elect chosen by God in the sense that God deliberately decided who would have faith and who would not. He just knows. He knows all, but must leave us to accept Him out of sheer faith and love for Him; it isn't about wind up humans and preprogrammed mother boards.
...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 07, 2004.
rod said, "The gospel according to a guy down the road:" then proceeded to quote "Somebody 3:16" which reads as: "For a god kind of liked the world, that he sent his friend, that only a select group who believes in him should not perish but have a long life."rod then provides "Commentary" and said, "Our God loves the world. He gave His only begotten Son. Whoever--anyone and everyone--believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life."
Jehovah loves the world, and He sent His only begotten Son to save them, not to make salvation possible. I do believe that "whoever" believes will have eternal life, but you, as well as Kevin, Faith01, Emily, and EVERY other Arminian will have us to believe that "whoever" implies ability. I take Scripture as a whole, en toto, and I realize one cannot believe unless he is quickened by the Spirit.
rod continued and said, "He knows all, but [He] must leave us to accept Him out of sheer faith and love for Him; it isn't about wind up humans and preprogrammed mother boards."
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.Can Scripture be any clearer than that? How does one go from a God-hater and become a God-lover? Is it by a human "decision"? How can it be? There is none that seeketh after God! Is there any hope for Humanity then?
"If there is no God-seeker, how can anyone be saved? Because there is a sinner-seeker, a Savior, who saves His people perfectly--Jesus Christ!" - JRW
Frankly, any arguments you, Faith01, Kevin, and any other Arminian will not be based on scripture, but on man's tradition.
rod, you do not understand Reformed Theology. I will direct you to this website once again. www.monergism.com
Read these articles:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html
Total Depravity:
by R.C Sproul
http://www.moner gism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/depravity.html
Unconditional Election
by John Piper
Particular Redemption ("Limited Atonment")
by Charles Spurgeon
http://solagratia.org/spurgeonatone.html
Irresistable Grace
by John Calvin
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/calvin_conversion.html
Perseverance of the Saints ("OSAS, Eternal Security")
by Jonathan Edwards
http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/wor ks2/htm/xi.vii.htm#xi.vii
There is a good online book by Loraine Boettner called _The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination_
http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/de fault.htm
If you don't have time because you are "working", here is your Calvinism 101 class ;)
http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=72&print=1
[Note: If you highlight and copy the link, you might have to delete some extra spaces that appear for no reason]
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
Hi David.Even my computer rejects it; it crashed with that first link/website.
I believe Arminians rejected the Holy Trinity. I don't. Yes, Whosoever does mean doing some work: believing, practicing the faith.
...................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 08, 2004.
I once got a Les Paul '56 Goldtop Reissue as a gift. The guitar just doesn't sit there in my music room and look pretty. I put it to use by playing it. I have had the chance to bring entertainment to my audiences and brought students to my teachings with this gift guitar. Had this guitar just sat there and looked pretty, the many people who've cross paths would not have benefitted from the work I've done with my guitar.Now, of course, replace my gift guitar with faith and see how works comes into play (oh, those puns!).
.............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 08, 2004.
David--Why do you insist that Paul is talking about anyone other than unbelieving pagans? Does this verse say that we cannot seek God or understand if we didn't follow our own way but, rather, received Christ and followed Him? This verse simply indicates that when a man follows the lust of his flesh--he cannot understand and would not seek God. The fleshy desires of this world cannot be what a man who wants God, should follow.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Clearly this verse is limited to describing an unbeliever....and to interject that it must mean that everyone is that way--and unable, on their own to follow God instead--is mere Calvinistic assumption.
Never does the Bible suggest that because of Adam's Original that all of his descendants lack the *ability* to turn to God through faith in Christ. In fact--the Bible is repleat with invitations to all men to repent and turn toward God.
Apparently David--even Paul believed that anyone could respond, not just a few elect who God had sovereignly without any faith on their part regenerated and then given them faith to believe. paul went everywhere preaching "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
In fact--all are commanded to repent and turn to Christ. Just as Paul declared on Mars Hill in Athens, God "commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30) To say that God commands men to do what they cannot do without His grace first--and then He withholds the grace needed and then punishes them eternally for failing to obey--is to mock God's Word, and His mercy and love, and is to really question his character...
We can see that rather than affirming any *inability* on the part of man--the psalmist declares "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God." (Psalm 10:4)
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 08, 2004.
I quoted what John the Baptist said, "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near." All I got back was confusion as to why I would post such a thing. "Random" comment? No. "Repentance" is required of all who accept Christ. Kevin has made it superbly clear in his post............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 08, 2004.
"Clearly this verse is limited to describing an unbeliever...." - Faith01This passage speaks of unregenerate men. I asked how does one go from being a God-hater to being a God-lover? Is it by a "decision"? No, unregenerate men don't seek God,
"....and to interject that it must mean that everyone is that way-- and unable, on their own to follow God instead--is mere Calvinistic assumption." - Faith01
I'm not sure what I said that made you think this. I even said to rod, "I take Scripture as a whole, en toto, and I realize one cannot believe unless he is quickened by the Spirit."
"Can Scripture be any clearer than that? How does one go from a God- hater and become a God-lover? Is it by a human "decision"? How can it be? There is none that seeketh after God! Is there any hope for Humanity then?" - David
I think if you re-read that, you might have not jumped to conclusions.
"Never does the Bible suggest that because of Adam's Original that all of his descendants lack the *ability* to turn to God through faith in Christ." - Faith01
Can Romans 3 be any clearer? Would you believe Jesus when he said "No man can come to me"?
"In fact--the Bible is repleat with invitations to all men to repent and turn toward God." - Faith01
Right, but the Bible also speaks of men being unable to "accept" this invitations.
rod,
YOu said,"All I got back was confusion as to why I would post such a thing. "Random" comment? No. "Repentance" is required of all who accept Christ."
Now you wouldn't be making such a comment if you'd actually knew what Max believed.
Kevin,
Read a book.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
Faith01,One more thing:
God doesn't owe condemned sinners a "chance."
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
I know that David..,But to think that God sent His Son to die for a select few that God had already deemed saved beforehand--makes no sense.
The Bible says that God does not play favorites and that we all stand condemned. We are saved by faith., then we are regenerated. That is what thew Bible reveals. Everyone has the same chance to be redeemed by the blood of the cross--
The Scripture, 1 John 2:2, is an unambiguous declaration that Christ is "the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world."
Surely "our" refers to the elect. Therefore "the whole world," being in contrast to the elect, can only refer to the unsaved and would prove that Christ's death is propitiatory for all mankind.
-- (faith01@myway.com"), September 08, 2004.
"would prove that Christ's death is propitiatory for all mankind" - FaithThen why do people go to hell? Did Christ actually save anyone at the cross, or did he only make salvation "possible". Did Christ cover all sins or all sins "except" the "sin of unbelief".
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
"But to think that God sent His Son to die for a select few that God had already deemed saved beforehand--makes no sense. " - FaithIt makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is making an unbiblical doctrine of saying Christ died to make "salvation possible".
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
"We are saved by faith., then we are regenerated. That is what thew Bible reveals. Everyone has the same chance to be redeemed by the blood of the cross--"Faith01, can a person have faith before they are regenerated? I think we have discussed this, and Paul says no. Read Romans 8 and 3 again.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
I disagree David...The Bible says we are saved by faith., not regeneration.
Nowhere from Genesis to Revelation does the Bible teach that sinful man, without first being regenerated, is incapable of repenting of his sins, turning to God and believing the gospel.
On the contrary--it is all too clear that faith precedes salvation and is in fact a condition of salvation. There are scores of verses declaring that we are saved through faith, through believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as He is presented in the gospel. This sequence of events is undeniable.
The Bible clearly teaches that the moment we believe and receive Jesus Christ as our Savior-- we are born-again by the washing of the Word/the gospel and are [regenerated by the Spirit of God] into the family of God.
John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Unless that you can show that being born-again is a seperate thing from receiving salvation and thus eternal life--I think the order of events is quite clear.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 08, 2004.
"The Bible says we are saved by faith.," - Faith01Amen.
"...not regeneration." - Faith01
Oh boy..
I'm sorry Faith01, but you are wAY OFF. It's like debating with Roman Catholics, saying the "Immaculate Conception" means the Pope is Sinless. Sorry, I will not respond to any other points as they are based on misconceptions you have about Calvinism. Faith01, _What Love Is This_ is NOT a good book to read as it is filled with gross errors (Like the one saying Spurgeon denied Limited Atonement!)
I suggest you read the links I have provided for rod and Kevin.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.
What?David?
I made a very clear distinction.
The Bible says we are saved by faith.
Calvinism says we are saved by being regenerated.
How can you not see that?
Your analogy about the Immaculate Conception and the pope made no sense to me.
I know that you have no answer to this dilemma David--none of my Calvinist friends do.
But that's okay. I'm sure it made you think about it though....
I didn't mention that book in this post either--yet--still., you are attacking Dave Hunt. What good does it do to attack him and let these points go unaddressed? It doesn't work out well for you because it just makes it look like you can't answer the question.
How are we saved David? Are we saved by our faith or by God's regeneration? It clearly can't be both. Unless there is a dual salvation message in the works.
-- (faith01@myway.com"), September 09, 2004.
Faith01,You would not have made a serious error like that, if you really knew what we believe. You know I am an advocate of Sola Fide, so I don't see why you would say such a thing unless you got it from someone else.
My analogy...you see, it's like attacking an RC and saying 'you guys say the pope is sinless', the bible says there are none righteous...do you see the point? The Immaculate Conception isn't saying the pope is sinless. That why I believe it is useless to attack a doctrine someone doesn't hold too. We don't believe we are saved only by "regeneration".
"How can you not see that?"
I only see an error on your part.
"I know that you have no answer to this dilemma David--none of my Calvinist friends do."
I'm not them. If they can't see this error, then maybe they need to study more.
"I didn't mention that book in this post either--yet--still., you are attacking Dave Hunt."
I am not attacking Dave Hunt. Attacking Dave Hunt is saying he is stupid because he doesn't have a "degree" from an "accredited" institution. I am attacking what he has written, and you have mentioned having that book. Re-read _Debating Calvinism_ and you will see how many errors and misrepresentations are made.
"What good does it do to attack him and let these points go unaddressed?"
Points...like that straw man above? Yes, these "points" go un- addressed because nobody believes in them.
"It doesn't work out well for you because it just makes it look like you can't answer the question."
I answered it. No much to answer, seeing how it is a straw man.
"How are we saved David? Are we saved by our faith or by God's regeneration?"
We are justified through faith only, but tell me, can an unregenerate man, dead in his sins, hate God, does not seek God-have the ability to believe? Jesus said, "No man can come", does that mean anything to you.
"It clearly can't be both. Unless there is a dual salvation message in the works."
I am a monergist- salvation is of the Lord. You are a synergist- salvation is made "possible" but man has to do this, this, or this to be saved.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
Okay David..,I still don't get your analogy. The Immaculate Conception is a doctrine that says Mary was born free from sin. The Catholic Church made that doctrine up because they don't see how Mary--if not sinless herself--could give birth to Jesus, who was born free from sin. They reason that therfore Mary had to be free from sin too. I suppose then that her mother had to be free from sin as well and her mother before that., and so on and so on. Though none of that suppostion is biblical.., it follows only their human reasoning. It has nothing to do with the pope as far as I can tell.
Secondly--you start with a false premise yourself--which is why you need *regeneration* before faith in order for your theology to stand.
The bible clearly reveals that regeneration--or being born-again--is the result of faith and therefore comes after faith. The mistake you make is in thinking that Paul reveals in Romans that man cannot seek God unless regenerated by God first. But those verses you site merely say that while man follows the sin nature--he cannot seek nor will he seek God. It does not--however--say that man is incapable of choosing to follow Christ instead. That is something that Calvin mistakenly surmised.. When you start with that premise--then you must make other verses say things that they don't--and you must ignore clear Scripture verses like the ones that say we are saved by faith in Christ. The Bible never says that we are saved by regeneration first-- and then faith from that regeneration.
I mean David--which comes first--salvation or faith? Isn't regeneration the same as salvation?? According to your order of events--one needs to be saved first before he can believe.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 10, 2004.
"I still don't get your analogy."The point I am trying to make is that you need to know what a person believes before you go "correcting" them. The Immaculate conception does not teach that the pope is sinless. Now, try that with what your saying about Calvinism. "Calvinism says we are saved by regeneration". Do you see? We don't believe this, so you are in error to say so. It's not about if their doctrine is right or not, it is if you know you what they/we teach and believe. Now, how would I look arguing and saying "The Immaculate Conception says the pope is sinless"?
"you start with a false premise yourself--which is why you need *regeneration* before faith in order for your theology to stand.
Read Romans 8 and 3 again. Unregenerate men HATE GOD. They have NO DESIRE to seek GOD! How much plainer can it be? Is it really David Ortiz's theology? Or is it what God says?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
David..,It is no secret that unbelievers hate god. But where does it say that those people cannot change their minds when convicted by the gospel-- without God first regenerating them?
You may very well believe that you believe that man is saved by faith. Yet--that is not what your doctrine actually plays out like. Clearly--salvation--or regeneration comes before faith according to Calvin. Yet the Bible says that faith comes first and that we are regenerated by our faith.
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 10, 2004.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - Jesus Christ
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
"Yet the Bible says that faith comes first and that we are regenerated by our faith."Where does the Bible say that?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
Romans 3: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.Romans 8: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
Faith01, How does one go from being a God-hater to a God-lover? Is it by there will? No, scriptures teach contrary to that.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
A slave is a slave, it cannot choose to be set free.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
But David--God draws all men to himself.
That verse does nothing for you in light of all the verses that declare in the plainest language possible that believing comes before regeneration or being born-again. Paul tells us that --"In Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15)... while Peter tells us that we are "born-again...by the Word of God"(1 Peter 1:23).
Being born-again by the Word of God can only be refering to regeneration. Paul says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17)...and he even calls it "the word of faith which we preach."
I can easily see that faith in Christ through the gospel happens before regeneration. Therefore the new birth does not take place by an act of God apart from a person's understanding of and faith in the gospel--but is in fact--a result thereof.
You avoid answering a simple question:
Are we born-again by faith--or are we born again by God first--then comes the faith? Which is it? Does salvation come before or after faith?
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 10, 2004.
David--Maybe if you read Romans without thinking about your doctrine of total depravity--which is not biblical--you might see what I am saying.
Nothing in any of those verses that you posted from Romans 3 or Romans 8 says anything about a man not being able to change his mind and follow the spirit--rather than the flesh--unless God first regenerates him.
These verses are merely pointing out that a man who follows the lusts of the flesh, cannot please God. They point out that a man who is a slave to the flesh--will not seek God. But it does not say that this man is a slave to the flesh and cannot be set free by believing the gospel--unless God first regenerates him. Not even close!!
Don't forget that Paul was writing about pagan unbelievers....
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 10, 2004.
"Maybe if you read Romans without thinking about your doctrine of total depravity--which is not biblical--you might see what I am saying."Faith, maybe if you read Romans without inserting your tradition and the concept of libertarian free will, you'd see.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
"God draws all men to himself.""No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - Jesus Christ
Are ALL men saved then? We have been through these verses before. 2 Peter 3:9 is refering to believers, 1 Tim 2:4 is refering to all kinds of men.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
"Paul says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17)..."Yes, I believe this! Now, please stop attacking a doctrine I do not hold too.
"I can easily see that faith in Christ through the gospel happens before regeneration."
Alright, let's settle this. To you, what does "regeneration" mean?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 10, 2004.
To me--regeneration is being born-again. It is the new birth one experiences when they are saved.Salvation comes by faith. Then we are regenerated by God-- or born again.
-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 10, 2004.
Faith01, I am having a hard time understanding why you think that a unregenerate man-who by nature is a child of wrath, whose heart is evil & sick, who is a slave of sin, who does not seek for God, who is at enmity with God and cannot understand spiritual things- can choose or desire God.I am thinking you might not be seeing the truth of this passage because you are using the NIV.
Here are two better formal translations of Romans 8:
KJV
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
NASV
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Is this so called 'faith' that a person, out of his or her own libertarian free will, chose to have, pleasing to God?
"Nothing in any of those verses that you posted from Romans 3 or Romans 8 says anything about a man not being able to change his mind and follow the spirit--rather than the flesh--unless God first regenerates him." - Faith01, (bold added)
The mind set on 'the things of the flesh' is 'hostile' toward God, and 'does not subject itself to the law of God'...Why can't they subject to the law of God? The answer comes in the next phrase you are unwilling to accept... FOR IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO. They are UNABLE to subject themselves to the law of God. Why aren't they able?
Here is two better, formal translations of Romans 3
KJV
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
NASV
As It Is Written, "There Is None Righteous, Not Even One; There Is None Who Understands, There Is None Who Seeks For God; All Have Turned Aside, Together They Have Become Useless; There Is None Who Does Good, There Is Not Even One." "Their Throat Is An Open Grave, With Their Tongues They Keep Deceiving," "The Poison Of Asps Is Under Their Lips"; "Whose Mouth Is Full Of Cursing And Bitterness"; "Their Feet Are Swift To Shed Blood, Destruction And Misery Are In Their Paths, And The Path Of Peace They Have Not Known." "There Is No Fear Of God Before Their Eyes."
Faith01, you tell me that unregenerate men can seek God, yet Paul says that "There is None Who Seeks for God". Likewise, Jesus Christ said in John 6, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." [Note: The best you can do, is dismiss this verse, like Kevin does. It is also interesting that he presents the most amounts of "exceptions" found in the Bible. You mention Cornelius, you get "oh that's an exception." You mention Lydia, exception! The thief? Exception! The Eunuch? EXCEPTION! John 6? Exception. Perhaps these are not just any "exceptions"...?]
KJV
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NASV
1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Can Scripture be any clearer? You scold me for accepting Scripture en toto. Why can't a "natural man", which is a unregenerate man, the same as those spoken about in Romans 3 & Romans 8, accept the "things of the Spirit of God"?
BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. Why not? BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY APPRAISED.
KJV
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
NASV
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
I asked this before and I received no answer. I'm not sure if you saw it, but can a slave just choose to free himself? No, God must open the heart, he must grant faith and enlighten a persons mind, just as he did to Lydia, the Thief on the cross, The Ethiopian Eunuch, etc.
The Eunuch:
He had the Scriptures; he was reading them, why couldn't he understand them?
Lydia:
Why did God have to open her heart? Did that violate her libertarian free will?
The Thief:
What happen to him? What made him change? Was he just smarter than the other thief was? Was he more spiritually sensitive than the other thief was?
I want you to keep these scriptures in mind:
1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 12:3 NASV Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
KJV
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
NASV
John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Why can't they hear what Jesus is saying? Is it because they don't want to? Or is it because THEY CANNOT? You scold me for supposedly ignoring all these 'scores' of verses, yet you don't even want to accept these basic few. I have not given you an interpretation; I've just said what it says. You are the one who will turn "No man can come" into "every man can come".
"You avoid answering a simple question: Are we born-again by faith-- or are we born again by God first--then comes the faith? Which is it? Does salvation come before or after faith?"
You completely miss the fact that one CANNOT BELIEVE unless they have been quickened by the Spirit. This is already evident from the passages I have provided. 'No God-seeker'; 'No man can come'; etc. You have not even given me a scripture that says we are "regenerated" after we "are saved". [Regeneration is not salvation, perhaps this is why you keep making errors like this] Regeneration comes before saving faith. We have been through these scriptures already, and the best you can do is dismiss them and say "they don't mean that"...How do I know regeneration precedes saving faith? Because the Bible tells us so in John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1, etc. Yet you fiddle around with these verses to.
This is the question you need to answer. It is White's response to Hunt:
"To confuse regeneration with saved and then quote dozens of scriptures about being saved by faith is to engage in empty rhetoric that has nothing to do with the question under debate, which remains clear: Can dead rebel sinners exercise saving faith to cause their own spiritual birth?" - JRW, Debating Calvinism.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 11, 2004.
David said: I do believe that "whoever" believes will have eternal life, but you, as well as Kevin, Faith01, Emily, and EVERY other Arminian will have us to believe that "whoever" implies ability.FWIW David, Catholics are not Arminian and in fact have some common beliefs with Calvinists. Jacobus Arminius was a Protestant. See the articles below for information on the Catholic understanding:
Catholic Answers' Ask an Apologist: Is the [Catholic] Church "Arminian" in its teaching?
James Akin's A Tiptoe through TULIP (more extensive)
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 11, 2004.
Well David..,First of all--let me just start by saying that I did not confuse regeneration with salvation. This is what I said:
To me--regeneration is being born-again. It is the new birth one experiences when they are saved. Salvation comes by faith. Then we are regenerated by God-- or born again.
So let me ask you-- why did you ignore the fact that I said regeneration is being born-again? And what about that? Is regeneration the same thing as being born again--and if not--please show me the teaching of regeneration apart from the teaching of being born again.
You said:
You completely miss the fact that one CANNOT BELIEVE unless they have been quickened by the Spirit. This is already evident from the passages I have provided. 'No God-seeker'; 'No man can come'; etc.
If I missed those words--please re-highlight them for me. As far as I can tell from the verses you provided--
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit--
In that we can see that the responsibility is on us.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Again--nothing in that verse that says that we cannot follow God, rather than the Spirit...and in fact, this verse seems to be warning us which is the better way and it lets us know that we cannot please God unless we are following Him.
You have not even given me a scripture that says we are "regenerated" after we "are saved". [Regeneration is not salvation, perhaps this is why you keep making errors like this] Regeneration comes before saving faith.
So if that's the case David--where is regeneration revealed, if it is not the same thing as being born again?
We have been through these scriptures already, and the best you can do is dismiss them and say "they don't mean that"...How do I know regeneration precedes saving faith? Because the Bible tells us so in John 1:12-13, 1 John 5:1, etc. Yet you fiddle around with these verses to.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[3] nor of human decision or a husband's will [natural child birth/rearing], but born of God. John 1:12-13
So in this verse we see that those who believe and receive Jesus are children of God--born-again, not because a man decided you would be born--as in natural child-rearing, but because you believe. Where does it say anything about regeneration?
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 1 John 5:1
Again--by faith--we are born again........
So far David--you have not made any case for the theory of regeneration....
Since when has the Bible revealed that man is born-again before faith?
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 11, 2004.
I can't believe David never answered me this question before he left! Now I have to wait for months??I guess his silence speaks volumes though....
Regeneration is indeed the same thing as being born-again. And we all know that the Bible reveals that faith comes first and being born- again or regenerated is the result of our faith : )
-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 13, 2004.
Ok, wow...Main Entry: re•gen•er•a•tion Pronunciation: ri-"je-n&-'rA-sh&n, "rE- Function: noun 1 : an act or the process of regenerating : the state of being regenerated 2 : spiritual renewal or revival 3 : renewal or restoration of a body or bodily part after injury or as a normal process 4 : utilization by special devices of heat or other products that would ordinarily be lost
Key words: 'renewal', 'restoration'.
Faith,
What is being renewed/restored? Look at #2: 'spiritual revival'.
"...I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (Ezekiel 11:19 NASB)
You said that 'regenerat[ion] is the result of our faith'. I'm beginning to think that you are getting this confused with sanctification... because according to you, a man dead in sin, lacking the ability to have faith, somehow gets faith but is still dead in sin, and THEN gets spiritually revived. I think my order makes more sense and doesn't cause this problem :) A dead man is spiritually revived, so he can then exercise saving faith, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, is enabled to live a holy life.
Think of this:
A dead man is lying at the bottom of a well. If you throw a rope at him, he is unable to grab a hold of it because he lacks the ability to do so (He's dead).
You are telling me that this dead man, somehow grabs the rope, is pulled out and then is revived. See the problem?
My view: The dead man is made alive, and now is able to grab a hold of that rope and is pulled out of the well.
Emily,
RC's are still Arminian :) There is no way you can say otherwise.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 16, 2004.
Well, I hold to the monergist view of salvation. In my view, the dead man gets completely pulled out of the well. In the synergist's view, the dead man pulls himself out because "it was made possible".
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 16, 2004.
What Catholic belief makes us Arminians David?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 16, 2004.
The problem with your theory David is that dead in sin, and just plain dead--are two different things.Being dead in sin simply means that we are not alive in Christ. It means we are under that penalty for our sin and have not been saved.
Nowhere is it taight that a man who has not believed yet--is unable to do so unless God first causes him to. In fact, the Scriptures are repleat with examples of God pleading with us to turn from our wicked ways and obey Him. Why would God plead with us to do this if in fact we cannot unless He first causes us to do so?
You said:
Ok, wow... Main Entry: re•gen•er•a•tion Pronunciation: ri-"je-n&-'rA-sh&n, "rE- Function: noun 1 : an act or the process of regenerating : the state of being regenerated 2 : spiritual renewal or revival 3 : renewal or restoration of a body or bodily part after injury or as a normal process 4 : utilization by special devices of heat or other products that would ordinarily be lost
Key words: 'renewal', 'restoration'.
So? Is that not the same as being born-again?
Faith,
What is being renewed/restored? Look at #2: 'spiritual revival'.
"...I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (Ezekiel 11:19 NASB)
Right. So when would God do this for them or us?
In verse 21 of the same Scripture we read:
"But as for those whose hearts are devoted to to their vile images and destestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord."
You said that 'regenerat[ion] is the result of our faith'. I'm beginning to think that you are getting this confused with sanctification... because according to you, a man dead in sin, lacking the ability to have faith, somehow gets faith but is still dead in sin, and THEN gets spiritually revived. I think my order makes more sense and doesn't cause this problem :) A dead man is spiritually revived, so he can then exercise saving faith, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, is enabled to live a holy life.
That's a nice theory, but it isn't Scriptural. Like I said above, there is nothing in the Scriptures that support the notion that an unbeliever is unable to change his mind or be convinced by the proofs and evidence God has given us, such as the cross. The gospel is designed to convict us of God's truth. Jesus says that if we would believe in him we could be saved. He says if we would just hear with our ears and see with our eyes, he would heal us.
If one must be regenerated and then is made to believe, the gospel would have no part in the new birth, preaching it would be pointless, there would be no convincing the unregenerate sinner and it would be a waste of time to do so. Yet we know that Paul--for example-- expended himself for Christ doing exactly that, disputing and persuading in an attempt to win people to Christ.
You say:
Think of this:
A dead man is lying at the bottom of a well. If you throw a rope at him, he is unable to grab a hold of it because he lacks the ability to do so (He's dead).
You are telling me that this dead man, somehow grabs the rope, is pulled out and then is revived. See the problem?
My view: The dead man is made alive, and now is able to grab a hold of that rope and is pulled out of the well.
In theory, you would be right. However, the man dead in sin is not literally dead and unable to think or reason.
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 16, 2004.
"the gospel would have no part in the new birth, preaching it would be pointless," - FaithI can't believe you wrote. This is just a silly straw man argument that should be put to death. Also, no one is forced to do anything Faith.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 17, 2004.
"However, the man dead in sin is not literally dead and unable to think or reason."A literally dead man and Spiritually dead man have one thing in common. They both lack ability. It seems we disagree on Adam's fall and it's effects on humanity. That is the core issue (Since we both agree on Sola Scriptura)
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 17, 2004.
Well David, can you point to a Scripture verse that says we are unable to believe in Jesus before God causes us to do so by regenerating us?It seems to me that regeneration is followed by faith.
The overall theme of the New Testament is that we are saved by faith. Yet you seem to believe that we are saved by regeneration.
Which comes first according to Scripture?
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 17, 2004.
How do you interpret this passge from Ephesians 2, Faith?1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 23, 2004.
More specifically, how do you harmonize these excerpts with your beliefs?
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions– it is by grace you have been saved.
8 ...–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–...
-- ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 23, 2004.
Andy--I believe that these verses are saying that even while we were still sinners (dead in transgression or unsaved) Jesus died for us.
He died for us so that we could *live.* His death paid for our sin. We become *alive* in Him when we--by faith, receive this gift of salvation.
There is nothing in the Bible that says that we cannot, on our own, choose Christ. In fact, that is exactly what God calls for all of us to do. His grace and mercy is extended to all who will believe.
And I think that this:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this (salvation) not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
I think this verse says that salvation is the gift. But we must receive it in order for it to be applied to our life. Jesus is salvation--he is the gift of life.
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 23, 2004.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions– it is by grace you have been saved.
Doesn't this verse support David's belief (see bold text)?
I think I see what you're saying, but the verse says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God". Even faith is not of ourselves, but is a gift from God, no? How can we even have an inkling to believe, if God does not prompt us to?
I'm posting the NIV version by the way.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 23, 2004.
BTW- I'm not arguing with what you've said here:But we must receive it in order for it to be applied to our life.
I am trying to better understand the Calvinist/Arminian argument.
-- ("ask3332004@yahoo.com), December 23, 2004.
Andy--I( really don't have time to put into this right now (frantically trying to finish all those last minute details), but I want to point out that it is not faith that is the gift--but salvation that is the gift in that verse.
And no, Calvinism is a false teaching. Being dead in our sin simply means that we are not alive in Christ--which we become when we believe and place our faith in Jesus to save us. There are no verses that say we cannot do this unless we are born again first. We become born again by faith--not vice-versa.
Be back later--maybe..
Merry Christmas Andy--and everyone : )
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 23, 2004.
Merry Christmas.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 23, 2004.
When you get back...
Do you consider faith to be "of ourselves," or a gift from God?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com), December 23, 2004.
Hi Andy...I think faith comes when we believe the gospel message.
There is one thing we do have to do, to do the work of God--and that is to *believe.*
God created us as free-willed creatures. That seems to be the most important thing He wanted for us. I think that that is because He wants us to love Him--a love given freely--real love. This could never be forced from us or imposed on us if it is to be real.
Otherwise, He could have just made us like robots., in which case, He could have just skipped the whole cross thing altogether.
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 23, 2004.
I see what you're saying Faith. But do you think can we believe without God's active help? Do you think that believing is something we "do" without any interference from God whatsoever?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 23, 2004.
"But do you think we can believe ..."
-- ("ask3332004@yahoo.com), December 23, 2004.
I think God is busy persuading us....but He will not force us against our will.He gave His Son as proof and the cross is the biggest sign for us to "believe" or not.
It is up to us.....
The Scriptures reveal that God wants that *all* people should come to a saving faith in His Son--yet we know that not all people do. So what's that about? Was God not able to force everyone? Or is it that He would not force us because our freedom was more important to Him ultimately?
-- (faith01@myway.com), December 23, 2004.