Could Catholic Mary be uniting everyone under her banner already?

Why can't they see the endtime prophecy about the woman who rides the beast in this?

One World Religion

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 17, 2004

Answers

*bump*

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 17, 2004.

What I find disturign is this. If I wanted to enter a sared site ti Hindus, and hold a Christain service, this woudl be seen as disrespectful... but tis K for them to desecrste our sites. ( Be they Catholic or Protestant, their still Christian.)

Faith, I do think your righ to worry, but I dot think Mary lead this...rater, pepel userped this unto her.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 18, 2004.

This is the clear attack of Satan on the Holy Catholic Church by sending false religons to desecrate the Temple

Faith - Read the Book of Daniel and Gospel of Matthew Ch. 24 on how Satan will try attacking the true church of God by iniatives such as these...

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), August 18, 2004.

Doesn't anyone think that the apparition of Mary herself could be the attack of Satan?

Has anyone ever considered her message?

The best way to resolve this question is to look at the test which Jesus Himself gave us. In Holy Scripture Jesus says:

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-16).

Here is what this apparition declares (There is no way any person can believe that these apparitions are in keeping with the Word of God):

"I will never leave you [This is the promise of Christ to His disciples, and it presupposes omnipresence, an attribute to God alone.] My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God...

Sacrifice yourselves for the conversion of sinners [Only Christ's sacrifice avails for sinners], and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary...

I promise to assist at the hour of death with all the graces necessary for salvation all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep me company for a quarter of an hour while meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary with the intention of making reparation to me..."

This counterfeit Mary's offer of "the graces necessary for salvation" and her promise to "lead you to God" is one more denial of the sufficiency of Christ's finished work upon the cross, a denial which is implicit in Catholic dogma rituals.

It is to Mary's heart that the world must make reparation for the evil it has done against her?? That is another blasphemous teaching!

David said, "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned" (Psalm 51:4) Sin is against God, not against any of His creatures.

"Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Whereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" (1 John 4:1-2).

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

All of these apparitions boldly offer a false gospel of salvation through Mary and the usual sacramental Catholicism of purgatory, ritual and works!!!

Our Lady odf Medjugorje said:

"There are many souls...who have been in purgatory for a long time because no one prays for them. (7/21/82) God has placed His complete trust in me. I particularly protect those who have been consecrated to me. (11/6/82) (Where in the Bible do we find that the suffering of Christ for our sins was so insufficient, that there is more suffering required by us in Purgatory?) At Christmastime the greatest number of souls leave Purgatory. There are in Purgatory souls who pray ardently to God...[and] God permits them to manifest themselves...to their relatives on earth in order to remind them of the existence of Purgatory..."(Spring 1983)

Talk about yikes!!!

Clearly we can see what Paul warned would occur in the last days. "Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils." What these apparitions teach are definately doctrines of devils that deny the sufficiency of Christ's death for our sins, and that deny His position as Lord of all....and exalt a "false" Mary above Him!!! She becomes the way to Jesus and the door to heaven. (Standard Catholic doctrine but not biblical) ***********************

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

Can we at least agree the Hindi's didnt belong at the shrine and desecrated it?

I doubt one of their sacred sites wol be open for a Catholic ritural... strange that a Cztolic site is open tot hem... in the name of "Ecmenisism"... and "Because we do not want to be fundamentalists".

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 18, 2004.

At least to a certain extent I agree with faith here about Mary's apparitions and her messages.

The Pope , John Paul II has continued to stress Mary, even to his dying days. He just visted Lourdes, in France. He plans to visit Loreto in September. In the 3 letters I wrote to him (1997,2000,2002) I warned him of dropping Jesus as mediator and concentrating on Mary as Co-redemptrix. Not counting even confusing Jesus with Yahweh.

From the Associated Press and Newsweek

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-vatican- pope-travel,0,5049122.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

August 17, 2004, 8:02 PM EDT

VATICAN CITY -- Two days after a grueling papal pilgrimage which left some wondering if Pope John Paul II could still travel, the Vatican on Tuesday announced details of the ailing pontiff's next trip.

The Vatican said John Paul would fly on Sept. 5 from his summer residence in Castel Gandolfo, near Rome, to Loreto, an Italian town near the Adriatic which is home to a shrine to the Virgin Mary. There the 84-year-old pope will celebrate a stamina-testing two-hour outdoor Mass.

During his pilgrimage to Lourdes, France, John Paul, who has Parkinson's disease, alarmed observers when he started slipping off a kneeler and had to be quickly helped into a chair. At other appearances during the trip he gasped for breath and asked aides for help.

Though on the other hand, faith already has classified on the same level as these false apparitions because I stressed God Yahweh over Jesus.

Well...

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 18, 2004.

Yes we can Zarove..,

But that they (people of other religions) want to be there, is the interesting thing--though.

This is the reason that I think the Catholic Church is possibly that one apostate church prophesied about for the end times. There is going to be a One World Religion.., and I think there will be a revived Roman Empire (possibly the European Union is the beginings of it...)

The apostate church in Scripture is represented by a *woman* who rides the beast. The woman being this religion and the beast being the Empire or government controled by AntiChrist.

The woman *is* a city, and she *is* a city built on seven hills. There is only one city that has for more than 2,000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city is Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

The Mary of these apparitions seems to be the one religious entity who is accepted and adored by all the world--even by Muslims. Who better to unite all religions under one banner??

But this is what Scripture says about her....

One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. Rev 17

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes. Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, 'I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.' Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Could this woman be the Catholic Mary who visits us in those apparitions and represents the Catholic Church?

As for *mystery,* that name imprinted on the woman's forehead is the perfect designation for Vatican City. Mystery is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism.., from the words "Mysterium fide" pronounced at the alleged transformation of the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ--to the enigmatic apparitions of Mary around the world. Every sacrament, from baptism to extreme unction, manifests the mysterious power which the faithful must believe the priests weild--but for which there is no evidence. Rome's Catechism explains that liturgy "aims to initiate souls into the mystery of Christ (It is 'mystagogy.')" and that all of the Church's liturgy is "mystery."

I find this all very fascinating...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

Faith,

I don't mean to keep dogging you, but I feel you bring up some stuff that begs a reply.

Here's some more stuff I hope you'll find fascinating...

But that they (people of other religions) want to be there, is the interesting thing--though.

Thieves want to be in my house too. Evil men wanted to be in the sanctuary to defile it. Your point doesn't prove anything.

The woman *is* a city, and she *is* a city built on seven hills. There is only one city that has for more than 2,000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city is Rome.

Actually, Jerusalem has been known as the City Built on Seven Hills too. Keep your mind open and see if Jerusalem doesn't also fit in with Revelations.

Could this woman be the Catholic Mary who visits us in those apparitions and represents the Catholic Church?

Faith, the "Catholic" Mary and any Church approved apparitions have nothing to do with the whore of Babylon. Please tell me where you get this idea from unless it's all based on the first statement you made that pagan religions want to be at Fatima.

As for *mystery,* that name imprinted on the woman's forehead is the perfect designation for Vatican City. Mystery is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism.., from the words "Mysterium fide" pronounced at the alleged transformation of the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ--to the enigmatic apparitions of Mary around the world. Every sacrament, from baptism to extreme unction, manifests the mysterious power which the faithful must believe the priests weild--but for which there is no evidence. Rome's Catechism explains that liturgy "aims to initiate souls into the mystery of Christ (It is 'mystagogy.')" and that all of the Church's liturgy is "mystery."

So what is this "Mysterium fide" pronounced at the alleged transformation of the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ? It is "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." What does that have to do with the whore of Babylon?

Faith, please don't believe this stuff. Where are you getting it from? There is a book called Babylon Mystery Religion (or something along those lines) which has been debunked by Protestants even. If this is where you are getting it from, please read it with a discriminating mind.

There are more legitimate things we should be discussing. While you see the devil in every Catholic Church, he's working in the open (even among Christians) pushing abortion and undermining the family.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 18, 2004.

Hislop, that's where.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 18, 2004.

No Andy..,

Those Hindus love Mary--they didn't defile anything...the Catholics did by allowing such pagan worship to be held there in the first place.

But that is just the thing--the Catholic Church is and will continue to welcome all other religions into their fold--and not require them to abandon their pagan practices or even to believe as the Catholic Church does....

Also., about Jerusalem..John lists at least seven more characteristics to limit the identification to Rome.., and besides--Jerusalem is not built on seven hills.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

Faith says:

"But that is just the thing--the Catholic Church is and will continue to welcome all other religions into their fold--and not require them to abandon their pagan practices or even to believe as the Catholic Church does...."

Actually Faith, the Catholic Church does not allow anyone into its fold who doesn't believe as the Church teaches. For example, you would not be allowed to receive communion in a Catholic Church. Why is that, it is because you do not believe the core values of the Catholic Faith that Jesus left us. Eucharistic sharing is a sign of unity. Therefore, we would not allow pagans to share communion with us either.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 18, 2004.

Faith says:

"Those Hindus love Mary".

How could someone love Mary but hate Jesus? One cannot say that he accepts and loves Mary without loving her son and well. Obviously if one is Hindu it is because they have rejected Jesus (or are at least a victim of invincible ignorance).

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 18, 2004.

The fact remains James.,

People all over the world--including the Muslims--are drawn to Mary. Apparitions of her have appeared not only all over the world but to many non-Catholics. It should be no surprise that the Muslims adore mher as the Koran has many passages concerning the Blessed Virgin.

I know you give these apparitions credit for pointing people to Jesus- -yet there is little sign of real devotion to Jesus Christ among pilgrims to Marian shrines. It is Mary who has the honor. The rosary is prayed over and over, the talk is all about Mary rather than Christ or God.., the devotion is to her, and pilgrims see themselves as her servants doing her bidding. Mary--not Christ--is the one who will bring peace..It is her peace plan for the world, reparation must be made to her for sins committed against her...etc.

It is no surprise at all that those who reject Jesus could honor Mary., because Mary is glorified--not Christ. Even the Jesus who is promoted in the apparitions is not the real Jesus. This Jesus is subordinate to Mary. These apparitions diminish Christ while elevating Mary into His place.

What did Jesus warn about such deceiving spirits that would deny God's Word., deny that Jesus is the word made flesh? We cannot separate Jesus from the Word--and therefore any entity that would preach another gospel--is not of God.

Also James--

You may say that the Catholic Church would not allow these things..,however--it happened. The Hindus came and put on a show and paraded their pagan Gods at the shrine of Fatima. Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran.., and worships with the Dalai Lama.....

And I might add that I could indeed partake of the Eucharist if I wanted to--as I made my Holy Communion as a child in the second grade. I was also baptised in the Catholic Church--and I made my Confirmation in the sixth grade. Not that it matters--but no priest in any Catholic Church could or would deny me communion. They don't even check.... The fact is--I couldn't participate because I wouldn't.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

Faith,

Also., about Jerusalem..John lists at least seven more characteristics to limit the identification to Rome.., and Jerusalem is not built on seven hills.

Actually, Jerusalem is situated on seven hills.

Would you tell me what the seven other characteristics are that limit the identification to Rome? I personally have no problem with John talking about either Rome or Jerusalem. There was persecution of Christians in both cities at one time or another. In fact I would go so far as to say it might be both Jerusalem and Rome. That's the great thing about symbolism, there are many levels of it. The important thing is the message, anyway. Rome or not, its still a stretch to say John the Evangelist was talking about the Vatican.

Why do you say that Muslims adore Mary? They adore her as the mother of a great prophet like we would honor Moses' mother. They don't honor her as the mother of the Saviour like all Christians believe her to be.

You have a huge misunderstanding about what Marian devotion is all about Faith. Where do you get your information from? You imply you have been to a lot of Marian shrines and talked to the pilgrims to discern their hearts. Anybody truly devoted to the Mother of Christ would never elevate her above Jesus. Real Marian devotion does not diminish Christ in your heart, it brings you closer to Him. You can't think about Mary without also thinking about her son Jesus. She is the Christian model of love for Jesus, humility, and submitting to God's will.

How much experience do you have with people who are truly devoted to the Blessed Virgin?

As far as the rosary goes, it is centered on the Gospels. Each decade is prayed while meditating on the Gospels. Many people read verses from the Bible while praying the rosary.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 18, 2004.

By the way, many Catholics (lead by many who are devoted to Mary) are appalled at what is happening at the Fatima shrine. The link you posted is great evidence of that. How can you blame Mary (or approved Marian apparitions) for this when the site you got the info from is a Catholic site that is just as appalled at this as you? If you really want to see outrage go to web sites devoted to Marian devotion and see what many of them have to say about the Hindu worship there. It contradicts your theory of the one world religion and whose behind it.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 18, 2004.

rod,

Thanks for the author's name. I can never remember Hislop's name.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 18, 2004.

Andy.,

It's not the pilgrims themselves who actually elevate Mary initially-- it is the apparition itself who does this. All one has to do is read the messages that these apparitions leave with us.

One of the first things that John tells us is that this woman is a whore--that earthly kings have committed fornication with her and that all the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Since there is no way that a city can engage in fleshy fornication--clearly John., like the Old Testament Prophets, is using the term in its spiritual sense. The city-- therefore., must claim a spiritual relationship with God. And although Jerusalem can make such a claim--it is not built on seven hills-though I know you say it is. And it also doesn't meet the other requirements that John lists. The woman is a religious entity and she is the city. There are many churches that are headquartered in cities- -but how many cities do you know that are the headquarters of the church., the heartbeat of the church and nothing else?

The woman is accused of being in bed with rulers. The Vatican has always been obsessed with earthly enterprise and politics. Rome-- pagan Rome.., cannot be accused of such spiritual adultery because it does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus said that His Kingdom was not of this world--otherwise His servants would fight. Therefore we know that no religion is the true church of Jesus Christ- -for all are guilty of raising the sword. The Catholic Church has raised the sword and fought for political power in the world. Surely this is a betrayal to Jesus.

John indicates that the woman is drunk with the blood of the Martyrs' of Jesus.., the blood of the saints. One thinks immediately of the Inquisistions (Roman, Medieval, and Spanish).

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

ROME, Faith, ROME,.....

can you not think metaphorically just for a mo'.

the prophesy has been and gone. it was Rome, built on 7 hills, that chewed up and spat out the first Christians. it was Rome that eventually got slammed. Christianity took Rome from the Romans and converted its pagan festivals to Christian festivals.

you WANT to see the bad in the Church - that's your choice -- but you must see the obvious parallels between the Apocalypse and the city of sin.

the Blessed Virgin will intercede for you if you ask her.

you just need to swallow some pride.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 19, 2004.

Faith says:

"And I might add that I could indeed partake of the Eucharist if I wanted to--as I made my Holy Communion as a child in the second grade. I was also baptised in the Catholic Church--and I made my Confirmation in the sixth grade. Not that it matters--but no priest in any Catholic Church could or would deny me communion. They don't even check.... The fact is--I couldn't participate because I wouldn't."

Let me clarify things a bit. Obviously if you went to a Catholic mass and attempted to receive communion, a priest probably wouldn't deny you, not because it is legal to give you communion, because the priest presumes that the people receiving communion are doing so in good faith. I am talking about your receiving communion from a legal standpoint, not a practical standpoint. Although you had received communion as a child, you broke away from church when you became a protestant. Therefore it would not be legal for you to receive communion. If I were a eucharistic minister and I knew you were a Protestant, I would have an obligation to deny you communion and any good priest who knew that fact would do the same.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 19, 2004.

The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, Chapter 11:

27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord UNWORTHILY, shall be GUILTY of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh UNWORTHILY, eateth and drinketh JUDGEMENT TO HIMSELF, NOT discerning the body of the Lord.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 19, 2004.

Ian,

Isn't it each person's responsibility to determine if they are partaking the Lord's Supper in a worthy manner and not that of someone else?

My question is where does it state that there is someone who is a judge in whether another is taking the Lord's supper in a "worthy" manner?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2004.

Kevin

"Thy shalt not kill."

maybe i misunderstand you but who is "the judge" for that one? the murderer? isn't it a pretty objective test.

the same as for those who do not discern the Real Presence?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 20, 2004.

"Thou" shalt not kill, not thy shalt not kill... thy is used in conjuction to a possesive, thou is in speakign to a person as a firts person object.

Thy will be done ( Refering to will as the object, and recongising possesison of the will)

Thou sayest ( The object is "Thou" , the verb is not the object to fhetsentence.)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 20, 2004.

Thou art correct, sire. thy (thine?!?!) point is well made by thou (thee?!?!), and well taken by me (I).

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 20, 2004.

Yes, I hurt my thy the other day, thou it hurts, it isn't broken. That's what thee doctor said.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

THEE- Personal pronoun, used for second person singular. Used in senteces where the person is addressed direclty. Used if the Verb Precceerds the noun. Used wshen the houn is the obkject of tghe sentence. " Takest Thee a seat at the table."

THOU- Same as above, but used if the Vert postceeds the Noun.Or in conjunction to an attribute. " Thou art a man". " Thou mayest go"

THINE- Used when the Verb is the Object. Similar to Thy. Used when the object is emideate. " Thine is the Kingdom." r " Thine own strength".

THY- Used to conotate personal , seocnd person addres, used where the Verb is the object of a sentencem to designatie oewnership, property, or action. " Thy will be done". " Thy head is weary." " Thy speed is great." " Thy bag." "Thy house." " Thy child"

YE - Usedin speakignto a gorup, plural. Used when the verb is the bject. " Ye must all come."

YOU- Group, speakign to a plural. When addressing a group, where the group is the object.

" You know the hour is late."

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 20, 2004.

Ian,

I understand that we are not to kill however, this has nothing to do with taking the Lord's Supper (what you call the Eucharist). If there is a connection, please explain it to me because I just don't see it?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 20, 2004.

Eucharist-(from the Greek eucharistia, thanksgiving). The central rite of Christian worship, derived from the Last Supper; also called the Holy Communion, Divine Liturgy, Blessed Sacrament.
(Jesus by Michael Grant).

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

K

i thought i was being too clear - if there is such a thing.

let me put it this way: "My question is where does it state that there is someone who is a judge in whether" [YOUR WORDS].... you are in compliance with God's Will [MY WORDS]?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 25, 2004.

Ian,

The text says we are to judge ourselves. Where does it say that someone else is able to judge in this matter???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 28, 2004.

Kevin

let's start with God, maybe!!!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 28, 2004.

Ian,

Please stick with the subject we are discussing, we are talking about humans judging other humans in partaking of the Lord's Supper. We are not talking about God being the judge.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2004.