Keeping a perspective and remembering the truth....

Bloody Friday

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 16, 2004

Answers

*Bump*

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 16, 2004.

Sorry, Americans always wimp out! I don't believe that Bush has done enough to rid this world of terrorism. When American soldiers invaded Iraq, they were told to remove the American flag from their tanks. Bull! We should have planted our flag on every acre of Iraq until the time came that Iraq could stand on their own two feet. Americans are the power that can overthrow the enemy. Heck! I think we should call them Iraq, U.S.A.

I will vote on the side of good, even if it means going in and destroying an entire terrorist nation. I don't want my children fighting terrorism in our own backyards. I don't want any children fighting terrorism at all. I think Bush shares that same sentiment and commitment.

I didn't want to get involved in a debate about Kerry and Bush, but sometimes the obvious needs letting loose before others burry it in the swamp of ignorance. Hussein is a weapon of mass destruction.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

rod, go back to work.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 17, 2004.

Are my words too harsh or unacceptable?

My work will never end, even when I'm no longer on this earth.

Did you see how well I moderated my posts, David?

Later, work calls.....

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

Rod.., the anti-American., anti-war Kerry--who always voted against military building--could never be a good choice--if what you say is important to you, is really true.

Kerry is incapable. He is a flip-flop big talker--who only seeks to say what the majority wants to hear.

He turned against his fellow soldiers and threw away his medals in a public display of anti-American rhetoric!!

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 17, 2004.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear, I'm not a democrat. I've always been a Republican. Whew! that felt good.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

If President Bush had listened to me about putting someone from Iraq to run the country, instead of trying to make some bucks for his friend Dick Cheney,.....

Oh, well,....

Come November there is going to be a winner.

John Kerry most likely will be president without ever beating President Bush at the election booths.

This man , President Bush,has too many enemies, that one will not miss a chance to do the unthinkable probably before November comes.

What goes around comes around. What started one cold September day, 9/11/73 with Pinochet in Chile supported by Bush's dad,....followed by Saddam, Noriega, Bin Laden (people supported by us), the 50 + people on death row in Texas, ....

will end soon.

There is going to be crying and weeping in this nation like it was in the days of Kennedy.

The President was number 20 on death's list of 123 people to die within 3 years. 12 have died as of 8/13/04. So far only Antonio Aguilar and Fidel Castro got a little break.

Still, come November, I am voting for Kerry.

Why?

No more money in social security, huge budget deficits, big cuts in education, higher fees at the university, insecurity about the future, too many enemies abroad, big companies like ENRON got away with murder (Bush's friend), not counting Cheney's company Halliburton,....huge debt in the trillions,...

the list goes on...

The Republicans got on Clinton for David Koresh and the Davidians in Waco so much, that urban terrorists made in the USA like Mc Veigh blew up an Oklahoma building.

We have met the terrorists.... they are in our midst, some of them are Americans too.!!!!

People detained without trials,....

trying to put up with 4 more years of Bush makes me realize that whatever is left of this countyry will take another Democrat like Clinton many years ro fix.

The mess of Reagan and Bush the father with unemplyment, high interest rates, large deficits, big cuts in education, health,... took 7 years for Clinton to fix, even after Republicans were making fun of him for balancing the budget.

So count this vote for Kerry!!!!

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

Elpidio--

For someone who claims to be in touch with God--you seem unusually uninformed about the true state of our country right now. Are you listening to God--or to the media?

False prophets are condemned by Jesus. The only true prophets prophesied with 100% accuracy--whose prophecies are recorded in God's Word for us.

No one else need apply., as far as I am concerned.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 17, 2004.

>I don't want my children fighting terrorism in our own backyards.<

You think the Iraq war increased or decreased the number of terrorists in the world?

Iraq did not attack us, nor were there any plans to attack us... nor were there any WMD - the very basis for the war.

How can you still back the war if the main basis for the war is gone?

The only reason people still back the war now is because of pride. It's like a dumb driver who can't admit he made a wrong turn and keeps on driving the wrong way because he's too afraid to admit he made a mistake.

We have to reverse the dirty deed and help rebuild a country's economy. Hopefully, helping them rebuild will help our economy, otherwise we should have thrown the billions of dollars to our own poor people. There are plenty of them on the reservations alone.

If Bush doesn't admit he made a mistake, he's worse than Clinton. Clinton only cheated on his wife and tried to keep it from getting out in order to save the reputation of the presidency. Bush really doesn't give a hoot about the families he cheated when he made the mistake of starting a war on a basis that didn't actually exist. He also doesn't care how the rest of the world views the President of the USA.

I'm not necessarily supporting Kerry... I just know Bush needs to be held accountable. All he has to do is admit he made a huge mistake and take some international steps to right his wrong. Otherwise, we'll pay for it in the form of the unmentionable - which can't be too hard to introduce into the country if we can't even stop millions of pounds of drugs from entering.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

All I'm saying is that there will always be war. I don't want them in my land. America has this bad habit of not doing the full throttle when we go to war. America should either conquer or destroy, but not do the halfway deal. Our error in Iraq is in not taking full and complete control. That means making Iraq an American controlled property--taxation, civil rights, and everything American. If we can't do that, we need not take over. But, we should destroy any and all terrorists. Why? Because they are evil, anti-American, anti-Christian, and because we have the power and responsibility to take action against any and all oppressors. We cannot and should not sit quietly by while innocent people are being terrorized and slaughtered. That's what I'm saying. I basically don't give a flip about politics when dealing with terrorism. Hard hitting ballistics and heavy handed laws are the answer to eradicating evil, not politics.

Terrorism has entered our land because we are who we are--Americans. America is hated by evil because evil hates nations who still worship God.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

Iraq is a synonym for those terrorists we are after to destroy. I don't mean to say that the Iraqi people are all terrorists. Basically, we are over there to protect and establish their pursuit of happiness, with American lives evidently.

Bush didn't take a wrong turn. Bush simple should have floored the throttle to it's most deliberate action and gone in with a stronger example. That was his mistake. That has always been the American mistake. Gosh! we could have had those NAZIS under our thumbs had we not hesitated. Patton was there! MacArthur! Our first Viet-Nam engagement was weak!

Study England's Imperialism and you'll begin to understand my views.

Our enemy is terrorism. It is just like cancer. If we just sit there and do nothing, cancer has a tenacity to get really fatal. We have to do everything in our power to stop it cold. Americans have this mentallity that just sits there until things go bad. That' just too late, in my book.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

>>False prophets are condemned by Jesus. The only true prophets prophesied with 100% accuracy--whose prophecies are recorded in God's Word for us.

No one else need apply., as far as I am concerned. <<

Was Jesus faith a true prophet or not?

Did he mess up with his return in AD 70? He said his generation (40 years) wasn't going to fade away until he came back. Starting counting from April 30 to April 70 AD is 40 years!!!

Well faith, in Mark 13, Jesus tells his disciples about the destruction of the Temple. Which it truly did happen. 2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Not satisfied with this answer they ask for more details about the time this will happen. Jesus calls it the abomination that causes desolation. This happened around 67-70 AD.

14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[1] standing where it[2] does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them

The problem is that according to what Jesus says after that, is that he will be back at the time of the desolation which happened around 67-70 AD. ....26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens

Matthew 24 34 I tell you the truth, this generation[1] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Yet Jesus says that not even he knows the end of the world. Matthew 24 32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 24 Such things must happen, but the end is still to come 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[6] but only the Father.

So what is my point, that even Jesus blundered in his return but not on the destruction of the temple.

Such was the correction made by Matthew when this prediction did not come true. This is not in Mark or Luke, which proves to me Mark came first before AD 70.

Ch. 24 Such things must happen, but the end is still to come

Paul believed Jesus would come in his generation. Writing around 52 AD in I Thes. 4 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The rapture was supposed to happen at around 70 AD, faith..... but Paul did not want to look foolish, so he writes at I Thes 5 1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you

In his second letter, Paul tries to correct himself. Paul tries to let his audience know that the man that will close the Temple will usher Jesus coming.

Well, Titus destroyed the Temple in AD 70. Jesus never came.

2 Thes 2 1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[1] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

So faith , there is more to prophecy in the Bible than you think. It is not 100% because God Yahweh keeps changing the times,....

Just like in the 123 that will die within 3 years, 2 of them were supposed to die between July 29 and August 5.: Antonio Aguilar and Fidel Castro. Why were they spared?

Why was Hezekiah spared after he prayed once Isaiah told him he was going to die?

What about Nineveh and Jonah?

Jeremiah telling the people not to go to Egypt because the Chaldeans would kill them there. It never happened.

Over 5 prophecies in Daniel that never came true.

The list goes on, and on,...

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

Rod wrote, "Let me make one thing perfectly clear, I'm not a democrat. I've always been a Republican."

Me too!!!

I could never in good conscience vote for a democrat.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 17, 2004.

And I cannot vote for a Republican...

They seem to me to have only 2 issues: no taxes, strong security for most and abortion for the Christian right.

They don't belive in public education,.....

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

Elpidio,

Public education is pure skubalon today.

More than half the teachers can be replaced by monkeys!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 17, 2004.

Elpidio wrote, "They seem to me to have only 2 issues: no taxes, strong security for most and abortion for the Christian right."

Yea, and the Democrats seem to me to only have 2 issues: increase taxes and promote class warfare between the rich and the poor. They claim to believe in one America except of course when it comes to rolling back the tax cuts enacted by George Bush.

Elpidio wrote, "They don't belive in public education,....."

Really??? Who told you this Elpidio???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 17, 2004.

MAX..,

You are mistaken when you think that the reason we went to war was because of WMD.

Remember that the media is not a good source for information if you want truth.. Don't let them influence you like that.

The reason for the war was that Iraq was unwilling to follow the law. They were in breech of resolution 1441--they failed to comply--and had no intentions of complying. While the rest of the world had to-- they thought they could do as they pleased. It doesn't work that way. And if you believe that they didn't have WMD--you believe another lie. Just because we couldn't find them--means that we obviously gave them far too many chances and far too much time to hide what they had.

But again--it doesn't matter. The reason we went in was to force them to comply with the resolution. 1441

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 17, 2004.

David wrote, "More than half the teachers can be replaced by monkeys!"

Ouch...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 17, 2004.

Oh, I'm sorry, are you a teacher?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 17, 2004.

No David I am not a teacher... I just thought that comment was a little extreme...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 17, 2004.

Elpidio..,

You simply need a good Bible study.

If you think that there are contradictions in the Bible--proving it wrong., then why do you bother using it at all?

I have answered these sort of objections ad naseum.., and if you really cared., you would know that there are good answers to all your objections and misunderstandings.

I am not going to waste my energy trying to address all this non- sense.

You are a lost soul--as far as I can tell. You have no way to measure truth. You reject the Word of God., which is my measure rod., so we will never agree.

It truly does amaze me that someone who is supposedly in touch with God--would miss something as simple to understand as the prophecy of the endtimes....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 17, 2004.

No, David, we are not monkeys. Students don't bring us bananas. They bring us apples. Uh, we then must be teachers without need of doctor visitations. "...an apple a day..." and all that jazz.

It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child. Some villagers can be rather oppressive with their taxes and laws.

Hey! Kevin. What do you know? We're Republicans. :)

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 17, 2004.

"Hey! Kevin. What do you know? We're Republicans. :)"

And we're also Texans!!! :-)

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 18, 2004.

Well, faith, as long as you continue to think the Bible somehow felt down from Heaven and that God Yahweh has abandoned us for a Book called the Bible, we are in for a good long talk. You said, I am not going to waste my energy trying to address all this non- sense.

You are a lost soul--as far as I can tell. You have no way to measure truth. You reject the Word of God., which is my measure rod., so we will never agree.

As to wasting your energy, faith, that's something not wasted unless you quit.

People quit when their opponent is either too well researched,too clever, too smart, too much connected to God Yahweh. If that is your case faith, then you are a quitter. You lost.Otherwise, hang on.

As for me being lost,...Well, being to purgatory, came back, talked to God Yahweh and Jesus,....talked to death, talked to the dead,... just 2 things left: The Hell of darkness and Heaven's Gate , and the accuser, two places my brother also visited in a revelation and he talked to when my brother was on the other side.

I think only the lost will never see that, faith. My only concern is not doing God Yahweh's orders. Then Moses, samuel, Eli come to mind: Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land. Eli lost the priesthood for his family. Samuel lost his jedgesghip for his family.

As for God Yahweh speaking to me only, then there is my wife,a woman, also as a witness:

(The message was in Spanish- Maybe God Yahweh also likes our language since my wife also speaks English since the age of 6. I translated this into English.)

"Don't be afraid, I am your father Yahweh. I will take care of all of you my children." -Those were Yahweh's words to my wife on december 1, 2003 when she saw big earthquakes coming.

Not all earquakeds are literal, faith. This means big changes are coming soon: from the Pope dying, President Bush getting shot,....

David, Rod answered for me. Out of 240-340 students who graduate, 25- 40% I had them in class. I only get regular and low students, not gifted.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 18, 2004.

Guessing that President Bush could be shot is something anyone could do--given how so many people hate him.

But if he is never shot--we will know that you are a false prophet. Even if one prophecy you make doesn't come true--you are false.

No offense intended Elpidio--but I think you are being visited by demons--not God. Don't forget that Satan is the great deceiver...

You have no way to measure the truth without God's Word.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 18, 2004.

[Mod.Note - Message promoting violence against the president deleted, As much as I dislike the pres, you just can't do what you did.]

-- REBEL (muhammad___imran@hotmail.com), August 19, 2004.

Faith

True, anyone can make a guess about particular events in people's lives. The issues aren't about guessing. They are about what is in the dreamer's mind as it manifests itself as dreams, not guesses. The interpretations of those dreams can be intuition, premonition, and even a guess. Obviously, you havn't had a bothersome dream, yes?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2004.

Elpidio makes claim to more than bothersome dreams. He claims to be a prophet, rod. He claims to have messages that usurp the Word of God and change God's revelation to us from the Scriptures. He claims to have visits from God..

Jesus warns us about such prophets and God tells us how to know whether a prophet is from Him. God shows us that His prophecies are 100% accurate...and that if a man makes claims that do not come true-- then he is not of God. Very simple.

How do we measure a message from a spirit? We do as the Bereans did and we search the Scriptures to see if what is being said is true.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 19, 2004.

Do people really think Senator Kerry is capable of the Executive Office or do they just hate President Bush so much that they'll vote for whoever opposes him?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), August 19, 2004.

My very first encounters with Elpidio and his prophetic tones have always involved my "let's see what happens" tags. If what Elpidio prophesies come true, we shall eat our hats. I'm not quick to kill a little bird on simple doubts. I haven't walked in the shoes Elpidio wears. Jesus was not accepted as a prophet in His own home. They even thought Him to be insane. I think I know what Elpidio's mission is. I also believe that it is his mission that is of pertinence. So, if his prophesies are false, time will tell. But, what of his mission? Will Elpidio bring souls to God? Will Elpidio return to our understanding or acceptance of orthodoxy? Again, time will tell. Is our orthodoxy correct and true? We will know for sure when our time is up.

I wish I had the power to enlighten Elpidio to an strong belief in Jesus being God. I can understand his rational as to his theological conclusions. My nature is to habitually question everything to death. The many books that I read are considered heretical by the Church and by Protestant theologies and doctrines. That doesn't mean that the heresies are adopted to my faith. It merely puts things in perspective and logic. It allows me to understand my faith better. Elpidio has walked many paths I wish to tour. Jesuit priests have provided some of those paths. What did they understand and why?

Ah! there's more to say, but maybe some other day.

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 19, 2004.

Okay rod..,

Just remember what God has said through His apostle on the subject:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 19, 2004.

Yes, I have a firm clutch on what we are to watch out for. The deadlier false ones are those with honey in their palm and beauty in their words. I have met quite a many in my time.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

....Like Benny Hinn, he does too many mirin the open, when Jesus tried to hush people up. ....Oral Roberts claiming that if people didn't give so many millions to his university, God was going to take him away,... ....Like Jummy Swagart, (busting Catholics and the like, caught with a prostitute,...) ...Like (can't rememmber all of them now, so feel free to fill in the blank)...

I still haven't raised the dead, given sight to the blind, make the paralytics and the lame walk...

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

Hi Elpidio

¿Siempre somos amigos? Cuando doy cuentas de ti mis palabras se sienten un poco picosas. Pero no creas que hablo mal de ti. La cosas es que en varias cosas creemos diferente, pero tambien creemos igual en otras. Horita estoy con un libro que me dice muchas cosas de Jesuscristo. Muchas cosas que tu me has dicho. En veces dengo que sobarme los ojos para ver si tu fuistes el que escribio este libro. Las palabras son como las tuias. Jesus by Michael Grant.

Jesus, el libro, juega con las ideas que Jesucristo siempre era un hombre con intenciones locas o divinas, pero solamente un humano con una mision ofrecida por Dios. "Exalted"! No lo creo, pero en veces parece logico.

Pardon my spanish, Elpidio.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

Uh, make that "tengo" (no excuse for that one) and "tuyas", right? It's been too long.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

"I still haven't raised the dead, given sight to the blind, make the paralytics and the lame walk..."

I wouldn't get your hopes up too high Elpidio. These abilities have long since ceased. They were "signs" to confirm the word of God (Mark 16:20) and since we now have the completed New Testament, there is no further need of these signs.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 20, 2004.

I am actually beginning to agree with your understandings of the charisms, Kevin. But, I do sense that some are given to us by the Holy Spirit. True, some charisms are not part of our mission because we are not Apostles commissioned to spread the Gospels to such an infant world.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 20, 2004.

No problem, Rod.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.

Catholics Kevin don't believe those gifts disappeared in the first century.

I was born Catholic, raised Catholic, lived as a Catholic until I realized Jesus wasn't Yahweh. That's the time my problems began.

What bothers my former Church is that I don't follow traditional mystics like Catherine of Sienna, Emmerich, Theresa de avila, Francis of Assissi,...

The reason I don't, as youheard me say before about not raising the dead, giving sight to the blind,... is that I don't pretend to have what I don't have.

There is still of a math teacher in me that says 2+2 is 4.

Even Rod and Jim Furst know that since the days they posted at the catholic Forum and by e-mails to me.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.

"I am actually beginning to agree with your understandings of the charisms, Kevin."

Don't think of it as agreeing with Kevin, you are in fact agreeing with what God says in His word.

"But, I do sense that some are given to us by the Holy Spirit."

Which ones???

"True, some charisms are not part of our mission because we are not Apostles commissioned to spread the Gospels to such an infant world."

The gifts of the Holy Spirit were only given to confirm the word of God. Once the word of God was confirmed, the gifts ceased. God says in 1 Corinthians 13:13, "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Spiritual gifts are no longer needed.

Elpidio,

You wrote, "Catholics Kevin don't believe those gifts disappeared in the first century."

They may believe this Elpidio however, I can assure you their belief is not correct.

"I was born Catholic, raised Catholic, lived as a Catholic until I realized Jesus wasn't Yahweh. That's the time my problems began."

If you reject the word of God that specifically states that Jesus "is" God, there is no hope for you to be saved.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

There is hope, Kevin, and you know it.

You and I come from believing that we have to get closer to the New Testament to truly know what the Church should be like and in what truly believe.

That's as close as we came. Then, once you realize that Jesus prayed to God yahweh and called his God (Mark, John) then your eyes will be opened, too.

It takes time.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.

Yes, Elpidio there is hope for you. It is my hope that one day you will study your way out of your current beliefs because they are not in accordance with what has been revealed in the Bible.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

Elpidio,

Just because Jesus called His Father "God" is not proof that Jesus is not God. Even doubting Thomas exclaimed the fact that Jesus was God, for he said in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God!"

Did Jesus rebuke Thomas and correct this error is Jesus is not God???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

I don't believe in "faith healers", but I do believe in praying to God for healings and the laying of hands. If it is God's will, we may find healing.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.

I beelive God can still work Miracles, sicne he did prior tot he apostles, and can still effect such things now, and we have acounts of miracles. Why shoud I beelive they cease based upon the teachigns of men?

This is one issue I diagree on within the Church of Christ.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 21, 2004.

The Book of Sirach (Ecclisiasticus) mentions doctors as being put here by God.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.

Rod,

You wrote, "I don't believe in "faith healers", but I do believe in praying to God for healings and the laying of hands. If it is God's will, we may find healing."

Yes, God answers prayers if it is according to His will...the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

Zarove,

You wrote, "I beelive God can still work Miracles, sicne he did prior tot he apostles, and can still effect such things now, and we have acounts of miracles. Why shoud I beelive they cease based upon the teachigns of men? This is one issue I diagree on within the Church of Christ."

I didn't say that God could not work "miracles", I said the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Yes, miracles still do happen according to His will however, the gifts of the Spirit that were given to confirm the New Testament have long since ceased and there is no one on this earth today who is able to perform the signs and wonders that were done through the early church.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

Kevin, I disagree, since God cn grant to whomever he pleases this gift, I beleive the gifts may still be valid today to show those who know not the Gospel its validity, or to strengthen faith.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 21, 2004.

Matthew Slick has written an excellent paper on this:

http://www.mslick.com/gifts.htm

It address the faulty arguments used by cessationists.

An excerpt from this page:

Argument 1: Since we have the Bible we do not need spiritual gifts. 1 Cor. 13:8-10 is usually quoted as scriptural support for the position. The only place in Scripture that explicitly states when gifts will cease is 1 Cor. 13:8-13. In part it reads, "When the perfect comes the imperfect shall be done away with." Some vigorously maintain that the "perfect" is the completed Bible and, therefore, the extraordinary gifts are no longer needed. If someone wants to believe that, fine. But I do not think these verses can be used to support cessationism. This is why.

Verse 12 says, "...then we shall see face to face." The word "then" refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Since the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, a quick examination of the way God uses the term "face to face" should help us understand this passage better.

The phrase is used throughout the Bible and always means an encounter with a person. When God uses it in reference to Himself, it means a visual, personal encounter with Him (Gen. 32:30; Ex. 33:11; Num. 12:8; Duet. 5:4; and Jer. 32:4). Likewise in the New Testament. There it is also used in speaking of personal encounter (2 Cor. 10:1; 2 John 12; 3 John 14, etc.). "When the perfect comes...then we shall see face to face" seems, most logically, to refer a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase.

If the position is take that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, how then do we encounter God in the same manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person. Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns.

Another "then" is mentioned in verse 12: "then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." The word "then" again refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Again, we need to look at how the Bible uses words, this time, the word "know." Scripture says that eternal life is to know God (John 17:3). Only the believer is known by Jesus (John 10:27; Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29). The unbeliever is not known by Jesus (Matt. 7:21-23). No where in the Bible does it say that an unbeliever is known by God. This is a salvific knowing; that is, it is a kind of knowing that God does of His people. He knows them and they are saved. The unbelievers are not known and are, therefore, not saved.

It would seem most consistent with scripture to say that "...as

I am fully known" would refer to a salvation relationship between Jesus and the Christian. At the return of Christ we (the ones known) shall know fully; we shall see face to face the One who is our Savior.

Also, we don't "know" Jesus through the Scripture; we know about Him from the Scripture (John 5:39). Instead, we know Him by personal encounter (John 1:12; 1 Cor. 1:9) through the Holy Spirit's indwelling. We don't know fully right now, even though we have the Bible, because we still are corrupted by our sin nature. In our fallen state we can only see Christ through sin-clouded eyes. We see a reflection of Christ in the Word. When Jesus returns the reflection of the truth will pass to clear understanding (the way childish thoughts give way to mature ones) when we receive our resurrected bodies, no longer have to battle sinful flesh, and can see Him face to face because "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2).. "Then we shall know fully."

The context of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 seems, to me, to show that the spiritual gifts will cease when Jesus returns. Interestingly, 1 Cor. 1:7 may be consulted here. It says, "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed." (NIV) The Greek word here for "revealed" is apokalupsis. It means the apocalypse, the return of Jesus. In both this verse and 1 Cor. 13:8-13 the gifts, which aren't differentiated as to which kind they are, are connected to the return of Christ, not the completion of the Bible.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 21, 2004.

Zarove,

You wrote, "Kevin, I disagree, since God cn grant to whomever he pleases this gift, I beleive the gifts may still be valid today to show those who know not the Gospel its validity, or to strengthen faith."

Where is the proof that these gifts are still available today??? Have you ever seen anyone drink poison and live??? Has anyone been able to raise the dead lately??? Why are these spiritual gifts needed to prove the gospel's validity isn't the gospel of Christ His power to salvation??? How does one get faith Zarove, is it through miracles being performed or is it through the word of God??? If God's word is sufficient to produce faith (and it is), then there is no need for spiritual gifts in the church today. God clearly states that His word is sufficient for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work". (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

"It address the faulty arguments used by cessationists."

There is no fault in what the word of God clearly states concerning spiritual gifts.

Those like David and Matthew Slick who believe that people today can expect to receive the Holy Spirit are the ones that have the burden of proof to show from the scriptures that we can expect such today. One cannot set out to give positive proof of a negative proposition. If you believe that such occurs in our day and that God has promised that such would occur today then it is your burden to prove it to be true. I am saying that you cannot prove such a doctrine from the scriptures. Since the scriptures do not teach us that God will give inspiration to us today by giving us the gift of the Holy Spirit. This "gift of the Holy Spirit" was for the purpose of inspiring men to reveal and empowering them to confirm the word of God. And through these chosen inspired men and their words in the inspired book the Holy Spirit has been guiding the church beginning in the first century and continuing until this very day. This has been accomplished and we need no others therefore we do not have any inspired men today.

In the days of the early church, God gave the Holy Spirit through the lying on of the apostle?s hands. (Acts 8:14-24; Acts 19:1-6). There is no place where any one received the Holy Spirit where the apostles were not present. Now, if you wish to assert that God will give every Christian the Holy Spirit in the exact same way that He gave it to the apostles and the house of Cornelius then it is your responsibility to prove that assertion.

No man has a right to make promises to people for God that God has never made in His word. It should be abundantly clear to anyone reading the New Testament that the examples we have of persons "receiving the Holy Spirit" are of only two types. One is the direct reception of the Holy Spirit upon being baptized in the Holy Spirit. This happened, as far as we have in the inspired record, only to the apostles on Pentecost and the gentiles at the House of Cornelius. The second is those who received the Holy Spirit through the "laying on of the apostles hands" (Acts 8:14-24; Acts 19:1-6). If you were not an apostle or among the first gentile converts at the house of Cornelius the only other way, given in the scriptures, for you to receive the Holy Spirit was through the laying on of the apostles hands. And there is no record of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit without an apostle "present" when it happened. The power for anyone other than Christ to give the Holy Spirit to others was a "gift of God" that He gave only to the apostles. (Acts 8:14-24). The fact that Phillip, the evangelist did not have these powers in Samaria is evident from the very fact that it was necessary to send Peter and John to Samaria that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Phillip was already there but he, though full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:6) did not have those powers which were reserved for the apostles only. Also the fact that Simon did not automatically receive this power when he received the Holy Spirit was proof that neither he, nor anyone else other than the apostles had "part nor lot" in this matter. And he was not therefore simply denied this power because his heart was not right before God. He was also denied this power because he had no "part nor lot" in it. If you can imagine someone receiving the Holy Spirit in such a miraculous way through the laying on of the apostle's hands and not being satisfied with the gift as it was given but wanting even more power, power that was not given to Him. You can then see that there was much more wrong in Simon's heart toward God than the mere fact that he offered money to the apostles to give this gift to Him. The apostle mentions the offering of the money as the outward conclusive evidence of the condition of his heart.

The apostles at Jerusalem knew that the Samaritans would not receive the Holy Spirit until the apostles laid their hands on them. Because they sent "Peter and John" to the Samaritans "that they might receive the Holy Spirit"

Why did the apostles at Jerusalem send Peter and John to the Samaritans?

Why did they not expect the Holy Spirit to just come upon the Samaritans in the same way that he came upon the apostles at Pentecost?

They did not expect it simply because they knew that it was God's design that through the laying on of the apostles hands that the Holy Spirit was given. (Acts 8:14-24). This was the very reason that the apostles went to Samaria and if they believed, as David does, that it could be expected to happen in some other way they would not have been concerned about the matter. They would have simply just trusted that God would send the Holy Spirit directly upon the Samaritans. But they clearly did not expect any such thing. For they knew that it was through the laying on of the apostle's hands that the Holy Spirit was given (Acts 8:14-17; 19:6) and therefore they sent the apostles to Samaria. "Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that the Samaritans had received the Word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who when they were come down prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been immersed into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit". (Acts 8:14-17).

Now one can see from this passage that the Holy Spirit was not received "automatically" upon one's baptism into Christ. It was something that occurred afterward when the apostles laid their hands upon them. These Samaritans had been baptized into Christ and received the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38). Yet they had not received the Holy Spirit because we are told "for as yet he had fallen upon none of them". Thus they were Christians and their sins had been forgiven but they did not have the Holy Spirit until the apostles came from Jerusalem and "laid their hands upon them".

In the same way, we in this century have been immersed into Christ and received the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38) but as yet the Holy Spirit has not fallen upon any of us only we have been baptized into Christ. We are today, as were the Samaritans before the apostles came to them and prayed for them and laid their hands upon them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. And unless and until an apostle comes to us to lay his hands upon us we will remain in our uninspired condition.

But we do not need this inspiration today because we have the same guidance of the Holy Spirit through the same inspired men who guided the church in the first century through their words in the inspired book we call the Bible.

Now, if you claim to be an inspired man who has received the Holy Spirit in the exact same way as the apostles or and the household of Cornelius then I challenge you to "prove it".

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

"Those like David and Matthew Slick who believe that people today can expect to receive the Holy Spirit are the ones that have the burden of proof to show from the scriptures that we can expect such today." - Kevin

You have to first prove they ceased, and there is no reason to believe so because of faulty arguments.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 21, 2004.

Here is your proof.

An article from Jim Dearman, Spiritual Gifts Are They Available Today?

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant" (I Corinthians 12:1). The spiritual gifts in this passage are the miraculous powers, such as prophesying, speaking in tongues (other languages), healing the sick, and raising the dead. Are such gifts still available to people today? We must not be ignorant concerning this important matter. Therefore, let us search the Scriptures for the truth about spiritual gifts.

The Bible teaches that miraculous gifts were needed for a specific purpose and for a limited time. They were to confirm the Word until the revelation was completed in written form. Then they would vanish from the scene. Paul proves this in I Corinthians 13:8-13. Let us study these verses carefully. "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail, whether there are tongues, they will cease, whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three, but the greatest of these is love."

Notice again Paul's words in verse 8: "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail, whether there are tongues, they will cease, whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." Clearly, the reference here is to the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. These gifts would pass away. In verse 9, Paul continues: "We know in part, and we prophesy in part." These early Christians were in the infant stage of their development as the church. The written revelation from God was not complete. Spiritual gifts were needed to guide the church. However, Paul, in verse 10, predicts: "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." Whenever "that which is perfect" came, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased. We must know what "perfect" refers to in this text. Then we may know whether or not "that which is perfect" has already come. The word "perfect" means "complete" or "whole." The phrase, "that which," indicates the word "perfect" refers to something, not someone. Yet, some apply this to Jesus Christ. They say these miraculous gifts were designed to continue until the Lord comes again. Since the Lord has not come again, they believe the gifts of the Spirit continue. This cannot be true. Paul did not write "when He who is perfect has come." He said "that which is perfect." Paul's words do not fit the context if we apply them to Jesus. Also, we must remember that the word "perfect" literally means "complete" or "whole." It does not refer to sinless perfection, but to maturity, or completion. That is its meaning in the original language of the New Testament. In I Corinthians 13, the completion of the New Testament is under consideration.

There is something else in I Corinthians 13:13 which clearly shows that "perfect" cannot refer to Christ's second coming. Hope will no longer exist when Christ comes again. Remember, Paul wrote "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three." In other words, faith, hope and love will abide after that which is perfect is come. Now, when Christ comes again, will hope continue? Will we still be hoping to see our Lord once He has come again? Of course not. He will be with us! Therefore, "that which is perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 cannot refer to Christ. Notice another of Paul's statements about hope in Romans 8:24: "For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" Hope that is seen is not hope. When I have seen that which I have hoped for, it is no longer hope, it has become reality. So Paul asks... for why does one still hope for what he sees?"

Here is a summary of Paul's inspired argument showing "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ's second coming. Paul states that hope will continue after "that which is perfect has come" (I Cor. 13:13). However, there will be no hope for Christ's coming after He has come (Romans 8:24). Therefore, "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ and His second coming.

In I Corinthians 13: 11, Paul uses the illustration of the child who grows to the full-grown man. Paul was showing how the infant church was to grow to completion or wholeness with the completed written revelation given by the Holy Spirit. The Bible itself claims to be all-sufficient. Why do we need miraculous gifts now that the Bible is complete? We are now in the time Paul, in I Corinthians 13:8-13, predicted would come. The fact that the Holy Spirit is not operating directly and miraculously today does not mean God is not active in the lives of His people. The providence of God is promised in the Scriptures, and it is present with His people today. God answers prayer through His providence. God can and does overrule in matters, through natural means, without the need for a direct miraculous operation of His Holy Spirit. The Spirit influences today by means of the inspired Word!

The Word of God is all-sufficient to produce obedient faith. "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30,31). The "perfect" Word provides all we need to know, and the providence of God is promised to us as we make our way toward the eternal home of the soul.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 21, 2004.

Oh, I see...the "perfect" argument again... ok.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 21, 2004.

I would never in a million years try to re-elect Bush.

-- Erin B (pooky_erin@hotmail.com), September 01, 2004.