1 Corinthians 1:17 (Part 2)

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Ok, this will be the continuation thread for the old one.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004

Answers

"A better question to ask is, How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

"A better question to ask is, Should Vegetarians eat animal crackers?"

Are these really better questions to ask readers??? You decide.

David will probably give another smart alec 5 year old response if I were to continue to reply to his posts as he did above. I am not going to waste my time responding to the rest of his post as it is obvious by his responses above that he really doesn't want to engage in a meaningful debate.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.


Kevin,

I hope you saw my point. I can play this game to. I answered your questions, but I am sorry you did not like the answers.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.


And a 5 yearold could not have come up with that response. I even doubt a 5 year old is old enough to even know how to type.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

5 year olds on averaqge have basic readinf skills and can clumbsely type, though the words may look like somehing i OUT TOGATHER WHEN i AM IN A HURRY AND TRED...

-- zarove (zaroff3@juno.com), August 09, 2004.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

Job 14:5 "Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass.

Isaiah 43:12-13 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.

"Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Lamentations 3:37-38 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?

Psalm 33:10-11 The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.

The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.

Genesis 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 09, 2004.



Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation, 6 I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury To capture booty and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets. 7 Yet it does not so intend, Nor does it plan so in its heart, But rather it is its purpose to destroy And to cut off many nations.

12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness."

Isaiah 10 :)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 09, 2004.


Matt. 5:45, “in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

Matt. 6:26, “Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?”

Matt. 6:30, “But if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more do so for you, O men of little faith?”

Matt. 10:29, “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.”

Matt. 10:30, “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”

Prov. 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

Gen. 18:14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."

Jer. 32:27, "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"

Dan. 4:35, “And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’"

Matt. 19:26, "And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Luke 1:37, "For nothing will be impossible with God."

Acts 17:26, “and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”

Psalm 47:1-4, “O Clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy. 2For the Lord Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. 3He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. 4Hchooses our inheritance for us, The glory of Jacob whom He loves.”

Psalm 33:10, “The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.”

Gen. 4:25, “And Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, “God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel; for Cain killed him.”

Deut. 10:22, “Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.”

Ruth 4:13, “So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son.”

Exodus 21:12, “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13“But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.”

James 4:13-15, “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that.”

Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."

1 Sam. 2:6-7, “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. 7The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts."

Ecc. 7:13-17, "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider— God has made the one as well as the other So that man may not discover anything that will be after him."

Isaiah 45:5-7, “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"

Amos 3:6-7, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 09, 2004.


Ok,...it seems like somebody doesn't want to continue discussing things....

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 09, 2004.

Ok,

Guys, I think Kevin is an Open Thiest. Why do I think so? Well, because of a talk Max and him had about Abraham (You can read it yourself, I'll try and post it later). Also his strong view of libertarian free will which is NOT found in scripture makes me believe this.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.


David, please define "open theist." I have never heard this term before.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 10, 2004.


Emily,

http://www.carm.org/open.htm

That site should give a an idea of what they are.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.


Basically, Kevin kept saying "If God knew...Abraham.."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.

That is why I posted a bunch of Scriptures dealing with God and his sovereignty.

Like my favorite:

Psalm 33:10-11 The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.

The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.


Questions for Kevin that were not answered on the previous thread:

1)Do you believe that, God learns?
2)Do you believe that, God can make mistakes? For example, can God believe one thing will happen, and it does not?
3)Do you believe that, God changes His mind?
4)Is God all knowing about the future or not?
5)Is God existing in the future or not?
6)Is God limited to the present or not?
7)The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). If this is so, then how did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified?

I'm adding the 8th one, in Romans 9:13, was God's love conditional or unconditional?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.


I post this question: "If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?"

Kevin responded: "Yes, otherwise it is not free will. Does God impose His will over our own will??? If He does, where is the scripture(s) that prove this is the case???"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.



Matt Slick provides an excellent response to Kevin's answer.

http://www.carm.org/open/God_know.htm

Excerpt from page:

" There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.


Kevin brought up 2 Peter 3:9 in the other thread.

Again, he takes this verse out of context (And he still has not explained 1 Tim 2:4 to us)

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9

If Kevin would actually read the passage, instead of the anti-Calvinist writings he finds online, he would see that this was written for believers.

In v.1 Peter writes,"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:"

In v.8 He states,"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Clearly, Peter is writing to believers, if Kevin proves otherwise then maybe we can accept his interpretation of the text.

He brought it up because he thinks that will prove me wrong. But I accept what the text says. I just don't accept what he think it's says. In verse 9, is God's patience toward believers, or unbelievers? I think it can be clearly seen that is is towards the believers.

What about "not willing that any should perish"?? I think it should be obvious that it is the believers (elect) that God does not want any to perish. And we won't perish, because Christ is not a failure as some would like to have us think.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 10, 2004.


David,

I am not an "open theist" as you claim.

You wrote, "Kevin brought up 2 Peter 3:9 in the other thread. Again, he takes this verse out of context (And he still has not explained 1 Tim 2:4 to us)"

It is only your opinion that I am taking 2 Peter 3:9 out of context. For your information, I did offer an explanation to your 1 Tim 2:4 verse on the other thread.

"If Kevin would actually read the passage, instead of the anti- Calvinist writings he finds online, he would see that this was written for believers."

Since when do "all believers" need to come to "repentance" if they are already saved???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 11, 2004.


"What about "not willing that any should perish"?? I think it should be obvious that it is the believers (elect) that God does not want any to perish. And we won't perish, because Christ is not a failure as some would like to have us think."

If this was written to "believers as David alleges, then why the warning that He is "not willing that any should perish"??? I thought that once you were saved, you were always saved??? This is what David's Calvinism doctrine teaches.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 11, 2004.


"Basically, Kevin kept saying "If God knew...Abraham.."

No, I did not keep making this statement. If you will go back and re- read the post I realized that I made a mistake and corrected my error.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 11, 2004.


"It is only your opinion that I am taking 2 Peter 3:9 out of context."

Because......................................you.............................say........................so? I see no explanation offered by you.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.


Let me refresh your memory:

"The scriptures make it clear that God wants all people to be saved, and that the choice is up to us, not God. (See 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9).

Not at all. Go back and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4. I have not brought up any scriptures that contradict the words of Christ."

This is Kevin's explaination.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.


T answer your queatsion... Vegitarians SHULD eat Animal crackers, unles they dotn liek them, their allergic or have aother medcal issue withhte ingrediants, or else if it will spoil their dinner!

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFFF3@JUNO.COM), August 11, 2004.

"No, I did not keep making this statement. If you will go back and re- read the post I realized that I made a mistake and corrected my error."

Does God know what you will be doing 1 week from now?

1)Do you believe that, God learns? 2)Do you believe that, God can make mistakes? For example, can God believe one thing will happen, and it does not? 3)Do you believe that, God changes His mind? 4)Is God all knowing about the future or not? 5)Is God existing in the future or not? 6)Is God limited to the present or not? 7)The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). If this is so, then how did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified? 8) Was God's Love in Romans 9:13 conditional or unconditional?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.


"Because......................................you.............................say........................so? I see no explanation offered by you."

No, because the price of tea in China is too high!!!

I wrote, "The scriptures make it clear that God wants all people to be saved, and that the choice is up to us, not God. (See 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9)."

To which David replied, "Not at all. Go back and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4. I have not brought up any scriptures that contradict the words of Christ."

Neither have I David. The scriptures that I have brought up contradict your "opinion" of the scriptures - that is all. The truth of the matter is your calvinist doctrines are so full of holes, a freight train could pass through them.

"This is Kevin's explaination"

Not Kevin's "explanation", this is what the word of God actually states.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 11, 2004.


What was that comment you made to me on another thread about continuing to ask for answers from you??? Hmmm... I could go back and find out... but what would it prove.... Maybe that David is a hypocrite???? I have already told you that I am not going to answer those questions that you keep posting. Do I need to keep reminding you every time you post them??? Or do I need to continue to correct you when you misquote my words???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 11, 2004.

Alright Kevin, it's very obvious you do not want to have a meaningful discussion with anybody. You need time off man. Take a break or something.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.

"Neither have I David. The scriptures that I have brought up contradict your "opinion" of the scriptures - that is all. The truth of the matter is your calvinist doctrines are so full of holes, a freight train could pass through them."

Really? You still haven't proven so. All I have seen you do is pluck scriptures out of context and refuse to even look at the context. Your doctrine is the one that is "full of holes", and it starts with your false view of God's Sovereignty and Sin.

"Not Kevin's "explanation", this is what the word of God actually states. "

This is what Kevin's thinks it says because he won't look at the context so he holds on to his man-made traditions.

"What was that comment you made to me on another thread about continuing to ask for answers from you??? Hmmm... I could go back and find out... but what would it prove.... Maybe that David is a hypocrite????"

That won't prove anything. I've tried to go back an answer as many questions as I could. Even ones from a few days ago. You on the other hand...

"I have already told you that I am not going to answer those questions that you keep posting. Do I need to keep reminding you every time you post them??? Or do I need to continue to correct you when you misquote my words??? ""

If you'd answer then we'd really know what you believe. So stop whining and crying about people's misrepresenting you when you don't even want to tell us what you believe.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.


Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

This thread is now closed.

-- David Ortiz (Christian_Moderator@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.