Why are Christians so divided on the issue of artifical contraception (and even abortion sometimes) today? My understandiong is that Christianity was historically united on the issue (at least until 1930).

I found this quote from John Calvin's commentary on Genesis 38:8-10. Got it from http://www.swrb.com/Puritan/bible-birth-control.htm which excerpts from Charles Provan's book The Bible and Birth Control.

The quote is this:

"Besides, he [Onan] not only defrauded his brother of the right due him, but also preferred his semen to putrify the ground, rather than beget a son in his brother's name.

Verse 10: The Jews quite immodestly gabble concerning this thing. It will suffice for me briefly to have touched upon this as much as modesty in speaking permits. The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall to the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born--the hoped for offspring.

This impiety is especially condemned, now by the Spirit through Moses' mouth, that Onan, as it were, by a violent abortion, no less cruelly than filthily cast upon the ground the offspring of his brother, torn from the maternal womb. Besides, in this way he tried, as far as he was able, to wipe out a part of the human race. If any woman ejects a foetus from her womb by drugs, it is reckoned a crime incapable of expiation and deservedly Onan incurred upon himself the same kind of punishment, infecting the earth with his semen, in order that Tamar might not conceive a future human being as an inhabitant of the earth."

I will offer other commentary to spur discussion as time permits. If no one takes an interest in this topic after a while, I'll stop.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 01, 2004

Answers

This link looks interesting with regards to the topic at hand.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=121403173550

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 01, 2004.

Andy said: My understandiong is that Christianity was historically united on the issue (at least until 1930).

Good point, Andy. Gary Hoge addressed this on his website, Catholic Outlook. He quotes the likes of John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Wesley, and the Calvinist Synod of Dort, all in opposition to contraception. Below is a quote of Nate Wilson, taken from Gary's site.

The Protestant Synod of Dort equated contraception with abortion. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, and many other founders of Protestantism linked birth control with murder. The Pilgrims who founded our country considered birth control as bad as adultery and disqualified anyone from church leadership who practiced it.

Here's some more stuff from Catholic Answers for anyone interested: Birth Control. There they answer common questions or objections.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 01, 2004.

Thanks for that link Emily. I looked at Nate Wilson's article and he makes a lot of good points. I'll quote one of his replies to a common objection I've heard regarding why Christians can use artificial birth control:

"A sovereign God can override B.C. [i.e., Birth Control] Let us apply the same logic to another context: suppose a murderer were to say, "I've bought a knife, and I'm going over to Fred's house to kill him, but if God doesn't want me to kill Fred in cold blood, He will find a way to stop me." This logical progression is exactly the same as that of someone who says they don't know whether B.C. is wrong or not, but that they will do it anyway and God will stop them if it's wrong. This is not a logical position. It is iresponsible to purposefully not decide whether what you're doing is right or wrong! Here's one more question: "Why would God want to give children to someone who doesn't want them?"

The full article can be found at http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/brthcntl.htm

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 01, 2004.

I don't think that that verse could support or refute abortion.

It had nothing to do with such a subject.

The problem was the lack of obedience to God's decree. It was the brother's obligation to continue the bloodline for his brother.

It has nothing to do with abortion--and probably had nothing to do with birth-control and God's disapproval of that. It had to do with obedience to Jewish Law.

I would think that God would want us to exercise responsibilty when it comes to child-rearing. He gave us brains for a reason.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 01, 2004.

Faith says"

"I would think that God would want us to exercise responsibilty when it comes to child-rearing. He gave us brains for a reason."

I would hope Christians would be models of how to raise children effectively. Now when it comes to deciding how many children a couple should have, what criteria should be used? I say this because we are sinful creatures who can justify just about anything we want. We can say we can't afford to have more than 2 children, but 70 years ago there were people who had 10 kids on a fraction of the income (adjusted for inflation) that most of us live on today. We are getting killed (spiritually) by our insatiable appetites for stuff.

Just a thought, not necessarily a Catholic perspective.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 01, 2004.

Faith,

I recommend you prayerfully read Deuteronomy 25:5-10 and see if the puishment for not meeting the Jewish law you refer to is death. You'll find it is not. The next question to ask, is why would God strike Onan dead if he disobeyed a law that called for public humiliation as punishment for not meeting that law. Look at all the Christian commentary (I already showed John Calvin's above) on that passage before 1930 and you will find most (if not all) Christians in agreement that Onan was struck dead for his contraceptive act.

If you believe the Holy Spirit to guide the body of believers as a whole through the Word of God, then the next question might be why has the common interpretation by many Christians of Onan's sin changed?

Please prayerfully consider these things in Scripture and see whose will we are really trying to fulfill when we use artificial contraception. I recommend taking a look at Nate Wilson's article and also this one: by Jameson Taylor.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 02, 2004.

Well, Andy,

What is sin from the point of View of the Christian Yahwist:

Abortion is a sin.

Contraception may not be a sin.

If people use condoms to avoid AIDS,.... is not a sin. If people use condoms to avoid getting pregnant, then is a sin.

If people use the rythm method, as used by Catholics to avoid getting pregnant, then is a sin. If Catholics and others use the rythmn method after they had a child, then is not a sin.

If people use the pill, or any other type to avoid pregnancy, thenm is a sin. If they use it to space their children, provided that if God God wants them to have more children, they don't avoid them, then is not a sin.

In the old days, mortality rates were very high. I myself lost 2 brothers. People lived on farms. Many armas were needed for farming the old way. These days people are urbanites. Children don't die anymore. Cost of living is very high. I recommend 5 children or less for most couples unless God reveals to them they must get together to have another one.

But don't point the finger at me claiming I am one guilty of this: I have never aborted a child.

I have never used congtraception of any kind.

I have always been the husband of one wife.

I have only had sex with one woman, my wife.

Even the Bible says that King David had no more sex with his wife, the daughter of King Saul after she derided him for dancing in front of Yahweh's Ark. God gets angry when people don't provide sex to their conjugal partners. God never got angry with David for this. Instead, he got angry when David committed adultery, sent to get killed the husband of that woman, and made that man's wife Batsheba pregnant.

What God Yahweh really hates is that we have sex with many multiple partners, abortion, withcraft,....

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

Pope Paul when he wrote Humanae Vitae (1968?) made four predictions of consequences of the contraceptive mentality:

• Marital infidelity would become easy to justify, and other moral principles would be easily disregarded.

• Husbands would lose respect for their wives and use women as instruments for serving their own desires rather than as beloved companions.

• Governments would mandate contraception, and public authorities would interfere in "the most exclusive and intimate mission of spouses."

• Man would begin to think that he has unlimited power over his body and the natural operations of the body.

It seems that these predictions were somewhat prophetic.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

Good points James.

Elpidio, without going into details, I am in agreement with most of what you said. However, the pill is more than a contraceptive device, it also makes the womb lining unihabitable for a fertilized egg. That would make it an abortificent about 3-5% of the time. A lot of women who use the pill may not be aware of this. How many would want to take that 3-5% chance with the life of their child if they knew the truth? I can provide references if you'd like on the abortificent aspect of the pill. This info can easily be found by doing a Google search or going to the Pharmacists for Life web site.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 03, 2004.

James..,

For example--I have five children. I had a Ceserean Section each and every time. I am now forty-five and feel I can no longer go through that.

Do I have the right to make the decision that five children by c- section is all I can handle? I am still fertile., so if I didn't take measures to ensure I don't get pregnant anymore--I'd still be having babies and be facing major surgery every time. Can I decide I have had enough--or do I need to be at the mercy of mother nature?

-- ("faith@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Faith says:

"Can I decide I have had enough--or do I need to be at the mercy of mother nature?"

The Catholic Church teaches that sex has two purposes, it is for:

1. procreation 2. to promote unity between the spouses

The Catholic Church teaches that it a sin to deliberately separate those two purposes. That is of course, what contaception does. What is acceptable is to limit sex to those times when the woman is infertile, which is what nfp teaches.

That said, do I think you have valid reasons for wanting to avoid pregnancy? My answer would be yes, although I am not sure I would extend that so saying it is enough excuse for never having anymore kids, just because I can't say what God has planned for you in the future. If you were Catholic, I would say you have legitamite grounds for practicing nfp.

On the other hand, we have to be careful of practicing situational ethics. If contraception is sinful, having a good intention does not eliminate the fact that it is still a sin.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 03, 2004.

I think faith has had the maximum number of children an urban couple can have.

God Yahweh wants us to feed and take care of those children. In rural areas that is done by the extended family. In urban areas there is only mom and dad, provided dad hasn't found someone else.

So faith will commit no sin. She already had the amount of babies a couple can really take care of. There is no sin in sex.

For example why does Paul not prohibit sex among couples?

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Was Paul speaking of pleasure here?

1Cr 7:34 There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please [her] husband.

And then what about the song of songs? There is mentionof breasts, not necessarily to give milk!!!

Sgs 1:13 A bundle of myrrh [is] my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night between my breasts.

There is no procreation in kissing, caressing, necking,...

Sgs 4:3 Thy lips [are] like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech [is] comely: thy temples [are] like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.

Sgs 4:4 Thy neck [is] like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.

Sgs 4:5 Thy two breasts [are] like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.

Sgs 4:11 Thy lips, O [my] spouse, drop [as] the honeycomb: honey and milk [are] under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments [is] like the smell of Lebanon

The rest you can figure it out, except for David. When is David's turn to have sex, then he will know what we adults are talking about.

Only in the mind of Augustine of Hippo, a horny hot blooded young man, who indulged in passion could come the unthinkable: Sex is evil once he decided to quit.

That mentality has permeated Catholic thinking to the point infants are baptized to erase the sin of sex, better known as original sin.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

James..,

In my state of N.J--the hospitals that are Catholic--insist that after three c-sections., you have your *tubes tied* and they declare that it is not a sin. They go further to say that woman should not have more than three c-sections because it is considered unsafe for the mother.

I didn't know this until just recently when I was at a hospital because of a minor car accident., but the nurse who was filling out the forms had to ask me if I had ever had any surgery--and when I told her I had five c-sections, she was surprised. She was the one who told me I need to have a "Tubal Ligation." She was the one who told me of the Catholic policy.

Fortunately for me--I already had that proceedure done while having my last c-section.

Otherwise I could be like dead--or at best-- in the nut house like some crazy mother who lived in a shoe--and had so many children she didn't know what to do!!

Lol!!

Thank you God--for giving us the ability and freedom to take good care of ourselves and to utilize our brains. Obviously without utilizing such medical knowledge--I may not have survived even my first delivery.

I know that you, God, would not respect me if I had not done the right thing for myself and my family : )

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Elpidio,

That mentality has permeated Catholic thinking to the point infants are baptized to erase the sin of sex, better known as original sin.

Catholic teaching on original sin has nothing to do with "the sin of sex". There is no such thing as the sin of sex as far as I know.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 04, 2004.

Faith

I might be correct on this one:

That Catholic hospital must provide such procedures under law. If the hospital has any affiliations with insurance companies and legislations that regulate such services, the hospital must provide those services even if it is against the doctrine.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 04, 2004.

In my state of N.J

Well, howdy, neighbor.

--the hospitals that are Catholic--insist that after three c- sections., you have your *tubes tied*

I live in NJ, and work at a Catholic hospital. That is an outright fabrication. There's not a shred of truth to it at all. None.

They go further to say that woman should not have more than three c-sections because it is considered unsafe for the mother.

I assume you can produce these policies?

She was the one who told me I need to have a "Tubal Ligation." She was the one who told me of the Catholic policy.

She was wrong.

Otherwise I could be like dead--or at best-- in the nut house like some crazy mother who lived in a shoe--and had so many children she didn't know what to do!!

There are families who go to the chapel where I assist at the Traditional Latin Mass with 8, 10, and 12 children. They know exactly what to do, apparently!

The price of having a large family is insanity & death? Is that in the Bible?

-- jake (j@k.e), August 04, 2004.

Fortunately for me--I already had that proceedure[tubal ligation] done while having my last c-section.

Didn't you say elsewhere in this thread that you are

1. "still fertile" and

2. "not a liar?"

-- jake (j@k.e), August 04, 2004.

Well, Andy,...

We know genes are transmitted.

As far as sin goes,....

the parents will pay for their own sins, so says Yahweh in Ezekiel. They cannot be transmitted.

Jesus cannot cure that one. Only the disobedience to God Yahweh he could remediate. Once we accept Jesus as the Christ, then we accept he is showing us the way to the father, Yahweh.

I know this one is though. Yet, Jesus gave an example in John where they asked Jesus who sinned for that man to be born that way.

We know Jesus answer.

The Catholic Church has moved the sacraments. Confirmation, known as consecration in the Bible use to come first. Baptism use to come later. Usually adults were baptized in the biginning.

I treat these as observances: The bread and wine have taken the place of the Jewish passover. Penitence the place of Yom Kippur.

These are as commands: Having children:be fruitful and multipy (even priests were included on this).

Marriage: whatever God has united,....

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 04, 2004.

Elpidio,

I think we're starting to get off topic with the turn this has taken on original sin. I'll start a new thread in reply to you. I'll title it Elpidio - Original Sin.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 05, 2004.

In light of:

1. Charles Provan's book, The Bible and Birth Control

2. Nate Wilson's article.

3. Jameson Taylor's article at Christinity.com

4. John Calvin's commentary on Genesis

Can anyone provide Scriptural references, or even "proof text" that supports or recommends artificial birth control as a good thing to do? I guess I'm looking to see if anyone has a valid rebuttal to the points made in the above references. The only arguments against that I have seen on the internet so far are based on worldy values, not the Word of God. I'm not judging anyone, just trying to objectively discuss what people think God reveals to us about artificial birth control in the Holy Bible.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 05, 2004.

Margaret Sanger is one of the reasons birth control has been accepted today. She is one of the founders of Planned Parenthood which provides thousands of abortions in the US each year. Here are some quotes from her. These may help show the roots and original intent of artificial contraception from one of its major proponents.

"Let the aim of the State be not numbers, but citizens of quality physically, mentally, and morally. Let the aim of the church be not numbers, but Christians of quality mentally, morally, and spiritually. As in the great war it was not Germany, breeding like rabbits, that won, but France, a nation practicing Birth Control." ("Citizens and Christians of Quality." , Volume IX, Number 9 (September 1925), page 257.)

"Ignorance, poverty and vice must stop populating the world. To accomplish this, there is but way. Science must make woman the owner of herself, the mistress of her person. Science, the only savior of mankind, must put it in the power of woman to decide for herself whether she will, or will not, become a mother." Robert Ingersoll. , Volume II, Number 9 (September 1918), page 6.

"Knowledge of birth control is essentially moral. Its general, though prudent, practice must lead to a higher individuality and ultimately to a cleaner race. (Margaret Sanger. "Morality and Birth Control." , Volume II, Numbers 2 and 3 (February-March 1918), page 14.)

"Another reason why birth control appeals to the advanced radical is that it is calculated to undermine the authority of the Christian churches. I do not expect every one to agree with this statement, but it is the opinion of many who, like myself, look forward to seeing humanity free some day of the tyranny of priests no less than of capitalists....The church will never be converted to birth control. It prefers that the world should be over- populated by the ignorant and unthinking. It will continue to thunder against the prevention of conception as an `unholy interference with the laws of God and nature.' But those who take its clamor with a grain of salt will increase in numbers, until birth control finally looms up as one of the principal factors in the downfall of the church. Walter Adolphe Roberts. "Birth Control and the Revolution." , Volume I, Number 6 (June 1917), page 7.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.

One more viewpoint.

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/1/afa/192004mc.asp

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.

Here is Ms. Sanger's "Plan for Peace":

The first step would thus be to control the intake and output of morons, mental defectives, epileptics. The second step would be to take an inventory of the secondary group such as the illiterates, paupers, unemployables, criminals, prostitutes, dope fiends; classify them in special departments under government medical protection, and segregate them on farms and open spaces as long as necessary for the strengthening of moral conduct.

With the future citizen safeguarded from hereditary taints, with five million mental and moral degenerates segregated, with ten million women and ten million children receiving adequate care, [likely forced sterilization or at least enforced use of birth control] we could then turn our attention to the basic needs for international peace.

- Margaret Sanger, Plan for Peace, Birth Control Review, Volume XVI, Number 4 (April 1932),107-108. Cited on Birth Control Review Quotes from 1932 [internet]; can be found at http://www.hli.org/bcr_1932.html

Are we Christians helping to fulfill this plan of false peace, or do we stand for the truth and fight to prevent it's ultimate fruition?

Okay, enough soapboxing. I wanted to bring up some of these things because I think that Christianity as a whole in the West has forgotten the battles fought in the past. There isn't much difference between the evils we face today and what Christians have faced since Christ walked the earth. Even if you disagree with the conclusions I brought up in the info I provided, I think we should put at least as much thought into the morality (and biblical foundation) of using artificial contraception as we would buying a new house or a car.

http://www.lifesite.net/waronfamily/Population_Control/Inherentracism. pdf

http://www.silentvoices.org/christianbc.html

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.

Corrected link. Extra spaec removed before ".pdf"

http://www.lifesite.net/waronfamily/Population_Control/Inherentracism. pdf

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.

http://www.lifesite.net/waronfamily/Population_Control/Inherentracism. pdf

Text box too small. Can't do it properly. Oh well. Enough said unless someone wants to keep this thread going.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 12, 2004.

Here's your link, Andy: http://www.lifesite.net/waronfamily/Population_Control/In herentracism.pdf. Hopefully that will work.

I couldn't get the pdf file to work on my Adobe Acrobat Reader, but I think that relates to a problem specifically on my PC. Anyway, I found an HTML version of that article instead if anyone wants to see that: The Inherent Racism of Population Control.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 12, 2004.

Thanks Emily!

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 13, 2004.

Dearest jake--

In response to your comment:

Didn't you say elsewhere in this thread that you are

1. "still fertile" and

2. "not a liar?"

I was presenting a hypothesis when I said to james:

For example--I have five children. I had a Ceserean Section each and every time. I am now forty-five and feel I can no longer go through that.

Do I have the right to make the decision that five children by c- section is all I can handle? I am still fertile., so if I didn't take measures to ensure I don't get pregnant anymore--I'd still be having babies and be facing major surgery every time. Can I decide I have had enough--or do I need to be at the mercy of mother nature?

As you can see when you take the time to read acurately--I was trying to make a point and see what his opinion would be--and it had nothing to do with my real circumstances exactly., though it was my real life situation that I was thinking of. Notice how I speak in terms of having already had made this decision long ago...

And I would add that I am still very fertile., which is why it is a good thing I had the procedure.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), August 14, 2004.

I think the Protestants on this board are missing Andy's point. The Protestants on this board seem to argue that contraception is something that Christians in general have the liberty to decide for themselves whether to use it or not. However, liberty does not necessarily mean "do whatever you want". The question then becomes if, from the Protestant point of view, contraception is perfectly legitamite, is it everywhere and always legitamite or are there guidelines which should govern its use. If there are guidelines that govern its use, what should they be?

Let me illustrate with an example. Many Baptists that I know are convinced that gambling is a sin. Now there is no scripture that explicitly bans gambling, but they are still convinced that gambling is inherently evil and therefore a sin. I would argue that gambling by itself is not necessarily evil, however it has the potential for being sinful, just as drinking alcohol is not by itself sinful as John 2:10 makes clear, but also has the potential for being sinful.

The question then is for the Protestants:

Does the liberty you have in the use of contraception mean do whatever you want, or are their guidelines for its use. If there are, what are they?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 15, 2004.

As a Protestant.,

I can assure you that we do not consider *gambling* or *alcohol* a sin necessarily---but the addictive behavior that stems from them-- such as loosing all you own in an irresponsible gambling binge or a drunken rampage where you hurt yourself or others--as being the sin.

In the same respect--birth control is not a sin itself--but could be, depending on how or why it is used.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 15, 2004.

"The Protestants on this board seem to argue that contraception is something that Christians in general have the liberty to decide for themselves whether to use it or not."

I don't remember mentioning much about contraception.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 15, 2004.