If I, as a Catholic, persist in devotion to the Mother of God, will I after death, suffer in Hell for that very fact?

Just say it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 30, 2004.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004

Answers

bump

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

Where'd we leave off?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

David, you kindasorta gave a "yes" for the sake of argument, and faith wouldn'd really give a direct answer to the above question. But your yes works well enough. So:

By establishing that one could lose heaven for all eternity over the obstinate holding of even one belief which is supposed to be contrary to true Faith, it follows that the holding of the true Faith (whatever it may be) is admitted to be an absolute necessary for for salvation. Other facts, if any not being ignored, such as being of good moral character or whatever.

Being the case then that the holding of certain beliefs is necessary for the salvation of a person's soul, the question is then this: What are the articles of Faith that absolutely must be held (the doctrines) in order to avoid eternal damnation and enter into Heaven after death?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

Emerald--

You said:

Being the case then that the holding of certain beliefs is necessary for the salvation of a person's soul, the question is then this: What are the articles of Faith that absolutely must be held (the doctrines) in order to avoid eternal damnation and enter into Heaven after death?

I already answered this but I will try to answer more specifically.

The only article of faith necessary is faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished for you and me on the cross. If you reject Him then you cannot enter eternal life. It is that simple.

When you accept and receive Christ--then you are saved.., saved from the power of sin and the penalty that goes with it. Then you are able to pick up His cross and follow Him. We don't follow Him to be saved., but because we are saved.

The saved--or the *elect*., have been predestined by God from before time began--to blessings such as eternal life in heaven with God. Only those who believe in Christ to save them will receive eternal blessings such as being adopted children.

Reject Jesus= eternal separation from God [hell].

Receive Jesus= eterity with God, [heaven].

Mary has no role in salvation.., she is not part of the Godhead.

And there is no indication in the Bible that she does.

Rom. 1:16-17

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Eph 1:13-14

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Eph 6:16-17

In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

1 Peter3:21-22

...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

I keep searching the Scriptures and I find no mention of Mary in the process of our salvation--can you find any Emerald??

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

"The only article of faith necessary is faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished for you and me on the cross."

So it would be not be a denial of the Faith to deny that there are three persons in the Holy Trinity? If one did deny the Trinity obstinately to the grave, would this preclude them from eternal life?

How about the moral arena. Take adultery or homosexuality. If the only article of Faith is what you saying it is, such that there are no other doctrines, then could a practicing homosexual or adulterer, unrepentant to the death, but believing this one doctrine, could they enter the Kingdom of God?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

Ya see Emerald.., true faith comes by repentance--which is a turning away from the sinful lusts of our flesh. Salvation gives us the strength in Christ to turn from sin.

Repentance means turning from our old selves--sin--and turning towards God.

If this is real--then we will no longer deliberately want to live in sin. That is not to msay that we won't make mistakes or struggle with these things. But someone who is deliberately going on sinning--isn't probably truly saved. They haven't truly repented. They are missing Christ in them....

Mary has nothing to do with whether or not you will be with God in heaven. Only Jesus does.

Once we have Christ in us--and we are saved., we can now resist sin-- we bear good fruit and follow Him according to His Word.

So let me ask you this? Where in the Scriptures does Jesus instruct you to worship His Mother? Where in Scripture do you find anyone praying to Mary or asking her for assistance at coming to her Son? Where is Mary's salvitic role in the Scriptures??

The question isn't *what do you do with Mary?*--but rather., "what have you done with Jesus?"

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

Alright, you address the moral arena, saying that a person who holds the one and only doctrine, which is this:

"The only article of faith necessary is faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished for you and me on the cross."

...will not longer desire to "deliberately live in sin" notwithstanding struggles, temptations, etc. as I understand it. Well and good.

So let's say that suffices for the moral arena for now. That effectively leaves us with the sticky issue of having only one doctrine of the Faith to be believed in order to avoid Hell and enter the Kingdom of God. Narrowing the matter to matters of doctrinal belief only, then. Stay on focus:

Would it not be a denial of the Faith to deny that there are three persons in the Holy Trinity? If one did deny the Trinity obstinately to the grave, would this preclude them from eternal life?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

When one is truly saved., they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

With the Holy Spirit in us--which comes by believing in Jesus Christ--it would be impossible to deny the Trinity unless of course., one doesn't believe in God the Father...but it's a silly quandry, Emerald.

Matt 3:11

"I [John] baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

If someone denied the Trinity to His grave--He is rejecting Jesus and is not saved to begin with.

-- ('faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

"If someone denied the Trinity to His grave--He is rejecting Jesus and is not saved to begin with."

So it is true, then, that there IS in fact more than one doctrine, and that at least one other can be identified as being absolutely necessary. Namely, belief in Triune Godhead.

We now have two, not one, doctrines which are indispensable to holding the true Faith of Jesus Christ.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

No Emerald..,

There is only one thing that will make it impossible to go to heaven-- and that is rejecting Jesus.

Such rejection of God does manifest itself in many ways and countless sins....but it isn't any one of those sins that keeps us out of heaven-- it is the one ultimate sin that keeps us separated from God-- which is rejecting His Son.

For there is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.

This is not a works thing, Emerald. Behaving and not doing this or that is not what saves us. Receiving Jesus is what saves us--and then., we are able to avoid such sinful behavior.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

You have to believe in the True Jesus. If I get a frog and name it Jesus and believe in it to save me, will I still be saved? No.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

"There is only one thing that will make it impossible to go to heaven-- and that is rejecting Jesus."

You've already established though, that to reject the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Jesus Christ. Which is true. Now if that's the case, whatever other doctrines are there, if any, the rejection of which constitutes the rejection of Jesus Christ?

Sidenote to conversation:

"This is not a works thing, Emerald."

We are narrowed at this point to question of articles of Faith only anyways. A discussion of works has already been put on the back burner.

Are there any other doctrines besides the single doctrine you claim, plus the doctrine of the Trinity?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

The Resurrection of Christ is essential.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

"You have to believe in the True Jesus. If I get a frog and name it Jesus and believe in it to save me, will I still be saved? No."

I had one like that, but the Communists got hold of it and kept turning the heat up one degree a week until it died.

Just messing around; seriously, though, this thing about doctrines... I want focus on it and get a grip as to your understanding of the nature of it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/essentials.htm

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm

These links might help you Emerald.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

No links; I want you and faith to answer, if that's alright with both of you.

"The Resurrection of Christ is essential."

Ok, there's a third.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

Salvation by Grace (unmerited favor)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

"Salvation by Grace (unmerited favor)"

Meaning that the person did not merit, or does not deserve, sanctifying grace through any action of belief deriving from himself? Alright, there's another.

Here's where we are though, so far. It's been admitted that the belief in certain things is essential to being able to enter the Kingdom of God. So intrisic the necessity of these beliefs, that if one does not hold them (other things such as a leading a good life not being tossed aside here) that they will not enter the Kingdom of God. Also, that holding beliefs which are contrary to true doctrinal beliefs can also prevent on from entering heaven.

So it's been established that Faith is essential to salvation, and that the doctrines of the Faith are more than one.

It's also been introduced that to deny one doctrine is to deny Jesus Christ.

It seems therefore that one must accept all the doctrines of the Faith. If this is the case, it makes sense to want to know exactly what these doctrines are.

It can also therefore be concluded that if one lays claim to the name Christian, and another person also, and a third and so on, that all will profess the same doctrines.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

"There is only one thing that will make it impossible to go to heaven-- and that is rejecting Jesus." You've already established though, that to reject the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Jesus Christ. Which is true. Now if that's the case, whatever other doctrines are there, if any, the rejection of which constitutes the rejection of Jesus Christ?

I think you have it backwards Emerald.....the rejection of Jesus Christ is the reason for all other sins.., such as worshiping Mary., denying the Trinity...etc..

"This is not a works thing, Emerald."

We are narrowed at this point to question of articles of Faith only anyways. A discussion of works has already been put on the back burner.

Obviously if you think that obeying doctrine is what saves you--then it is a works thing.

The way I see it--it is because we are saved by faith., that we are able to turn from sin--follow Jesus and understand His teachings...

Are there any other doctrines besides the single doctrine you claim, plus the doctrine of the Trinity?

Following doctrine is not what gets you into heaven Emerald. Not understanding doctrine is the result of having rejected Christ and a sign that a person does not know Jesus. This results in things like you keep mentioning.., but is not the reason one will not see eternal life.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

"Following doctrine is not what gets you into heaven Emerald."

But you, with your own words, have established the necessity of adhering to them in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

Established:

That the holding of doctrine is essential to being able to enter the Kingdom of God.

That there is more than one doctrine.

That to deny any one doctrine is to deny Jesus Christ.

The necessity of knowing what these doctrines are.

That all those who lay claim to the name Christian will agree upon what these doctrines are.

All that remains, then is a complete and available body of doctrine.

Do you have that?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

I logged onto that chat thing, David, if you ever want to go live with the convo, let me know. It'd be a little faster; probably too fast for me, but it would be fun.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

Emerald--

I know you are not really this dense. Please try and *see* what I am saying.

You said:

But you, with your own words, have established the necessity of adhering to them in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

No I have not--I simply said that a person who doesn't believe what the Holy Spirit reveals--doesn't have the Christ in him/her in the first place. It is the rejection of Christ--not having faith or believing in Him-- that causes the confusion and misunderstanding.

It isn't that because you don't believe in a doctrine--such as the Trinity--that you reject Christ--it is because you reject Christ-- that you don't believe these teachings.

**********************

Established: That the holding of doctrine is essential to being able to enter the Kingdom of God.

Not at all Emerald. You have it backwards. Receiving Christ is essential to being able to enter the kingdom of God. If you don't believe in His teachings--you have not received Him by faith in the first place.

That there is more than one doctrine.

There are many doctrines Emerald--some biblical., some not. These have nothing to do with salvation--only faith in Jesus Christ does., which naturally results in adherence to His teachings.

That to deny any one doctrine is to deny Jesus Christ.

That to deny His teachings/doctrines means you never received Christ in the first place. He is rejected.

The necessity of knowing what these doctrines are.

Knowing these doctrines comes to us through His Word--the Holy Spirit enables us to understand only after we are saved. We cannot discern the deeper things of God without the Holy Spirit. Salvation comes first.......

That all those who lay claim to the name Christian will agree upon what these doctrines are.

No--many claim the name of Christ but will be msent away in the last days--hearing these words:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matt 7:21-23

All that remains, then is a complete and available body of doctrine.

Do you have that?

Yes--it's called the Word of God [Jesus].

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

Well, Faith, I'm very dense and I probably can speak for those other dense people who are trying to make sense of "Faith Alone". But, I can follow Emerald's line of reasoning. It is plain as day. There are doctrines that are correct and those that are not. I think this is why people must follow doctrine--some are intellingent, some are dense, and some choose not to accept. Who is more inclined to get into Heaven? Somehow, I sense that a dense person may have a better shot considering that they will obey, work, and believe there way. They may never understand their faith because--like me--they are dense. I know of some geniuses in this world who think they have everything figured out, but they are atheists or agnostics. I know friends who don't have that college degree or even that high school diploma; they walk with God, let's say. "Dense" may be a good thing, I'd say.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

I'm sorry, Emerald, for intruding. I'll let you all continue without my pestering, again.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

Well rod., the way I see it--the ability to understand Jesus' teachings can only come when you have received Him as your Savior--by faith..

If you have not--then doctrines--whether false or not--don't make any difference.

Being able to differentiate between the truth and lies can only come to those who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

So the bottom line remains:

If you reject Jesus Christ--your are eternally separated from God-- that is what hell is.

If you have received Christ--then you will spend eternity with God. That's heaven.

It's simple really.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

"I'm sorry, Emerald, for intruding. I'll let you all continue without my pestering, again."

Go for it; I think I'm done for now. Yep, in a certain sense, dense is good.

It's always said that we Catholics are works oriented, but when you really look at the opposition closely, what's really seems the case is that it's first an issue of beliefs, or Faith, which is at the cutting edge of their objections. There's an objection against the works thing, but it really begins with a conflict about what the Faith consists of; the works rebuff actually comes later on.

Probably what happens most the time is that people do what they will, and then believe what supports those things accordingly. The other way is to believe, and then choose to live according to that belief.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

One more thing:

"Well rod., the way I see it--the ability to understand Jesus' teachings can only come when you have received Him as your Savior--by faith.."

I don't understand the Trinity. That's because it's an article of Faith. It's been provided by way of divine revelation, because sitting here at my desk for all eternity, I would never have been able to come to truth of the Holy Trinity using my human reason. So I accept it as true, since God deemed it necessary for me to accept it as truth... something having to do with what's necessary for salvation (salvation as in going to heaven, not something pertaining to this world).

But if somebody thinks they can explain the Holy Trinity because they've been saved... fire away! lol.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

It would be hard to explain these clear Scripture verses without acknowledging the Holy Trinity. With the Holy Spirit in us--we can accept this doctrine because it is revealed in the Scriptures..

An unbeliever will not accept this doctrine on faith--because they have no faith.

But none of this has anything to do with why we go to heaven or hell. We either accept Jesus and His Word=heaven.., or we reject Him=hell.

***********************

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He annointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come ( Corinthians 1:21,22).

Give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus . Do not put out the Spirit's fire (1 Thess. 5:18,19).

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 3:3-6).

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men (1 Cor. 12:4-6).

"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the begining God chose you to be saved through the sactifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" ( 2 Thess. 2:13,14).

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

Also Emerald--

And this....

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!.....

You think that *but only he who does the will of my Father* supports your faith+works gets you to heaven theology--

But if you really read this verse in its context., you will see that Jesus exposed those people who sounded religious--who claimed to follow the rules--but who did not have a relationship with Him.

On that day--only our relationship with Him will matter. Our acceptance of Him as our Savior--which resulted in obedience, will matter.

Many people think that they if are "good" people and say religious things, they will be rewarded with eternal life--but in reality., faith in Jesus is what will count.

The good works are just the evidence of a relationship and of obedience. There are those who acted religious and did good deeds-- but were not saved because they didn't have a personal relationship with Christ. He didn't know them......

"Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" [this sounds like what some religions do--including Catholicism]

And Jesus told them--

"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!....."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

But, Faith let's for a moment pretend that you are dense. If you are dense, then how do you know that Christ is in you? How do you know if you are simply wishing and just fooling yourself into thinking that you are saved?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you are dense like maybe Emerald and I. (You implied that Emerald was; I know I'm dense or "thick".)

And, if it is true what you say about having a "Personal Savior", then how do you know that Emerald's or my "Personal Savior" is Who we believe Him to be? Afterall, each of us has our own "Personal" thing going on.

But, the Catholic faith is much different because it brings together all people into one faith. Jesus Christ is OUR Saviour. Yes, we each experience His blessings, love, and grace in a personal way, but ultimately we are to be a family in worship and faith in Him under one doctrine of faith, not everyman for himself kind of doctrine. I truly believe that Catholicism is the path that leads to faith in Christ. I know that sounds scary to non-Catholics, but they too have their earthly leaders to learn and deal with.

I think that we are all dense compared to God. That makes for confusion in trying to figure out things that are divine. The Holy Trinity is only one example.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

Here is a quarky example:

What I admire about Elpidio, among several more things, is his sense of mission to bring people of different religions under one doctrine, one theology. I don't know how he will be able to accomplish his mission. The Catholic Church has had her dissenters.

In your previous post, Faith, you mentioned those poor lost "workers" and unrecognizable folks who went wrong in there religious duties. When you remind us of those Scriptures, I can't help but to think of the Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Lutherans, and on and on. Which faith system is not heaven bound? Are they all? What about the "cults" out there who, in most people's views, are lost more lost than lost? If these denominations are not in the "true" faith, then let's think about where the came from. We must all be lost........makes us wonder. But, I guess we'll have to realize that you, Faith, are correct. But, then Kevin....wait, David.....no, Max.....Uh.....oh, I know..Elpidio.....Me?? Hmmm??

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

"If I, as a Catholic, persist in devotion to the Mother of God, will I after death, suffer in Hell for that very fact?"

Or, to ask the same question another way, did all followers of Christ go to hell from the time of Christ until the Protestant Rebellion?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 31, 2004.

Think before I post?? Huh??? us Catholics are dense remember?

David read it slower so that you can understand what I've posted.

You might have to read it several times.

Uh, people? Are my posts really that difficult to understand?

I'm just wasting my time here.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

Yes I did.

I wonder if Faith has?

Faith to Emerald:"I know you are not really this dense."

So, how dense does she think he is?

I'm out of here.

....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

I find Faith's remarks offensive to all Catholics:

" "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" [this sounds like what some religions do--including Catholicism] "

I sense that Faith is using God's name in vain and making blasphemous accusations against His Church, the Catholic Church. How can Faith make such a judgement call on the Catholic Church? She is not even an ordained minister of any church. She is being direspectful to Catholics, even after the Catholics have brought the Church's doctrine to her feet. She is trampling on the Church. I feel that Faith needs to stop doing that. What will it be, David?

Are you gonna try to censor or ban me because of my faith or ask Faith to stop bashing the Church?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

David, if it is you, I'm am willing to suffer whatever you have to dish out over my faith. I have never equated Faith as an evildoer because of her church affiliation. I have never told you that that particular Scripture applied to you or any of the regular poster's church affiliations. Yet, Faith has taken it upon herself to make the final call on the Catholic Church. That is just plain wrong.

If you are gonna ban me, then be equitable with your punishment and ban Faith along with my punishment for sticking up to my faith. It is very simple if you ask me .

Tell me something, what do I have to lose by being banned? It is a very small price to pay in the overall scheme of things.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

In my opinion rod--

It is the Catholic Church that has false prophets.., casts out demons with the cross as though it were magic., and has made claims of miraculous things such as Transubstantiation. Jesus could well be addressing those practicing Catholicism when He says "I knew you not!!"

Your question about how do we know if we are saved or if we have a personal relationship with Jesus is a hard thing to answer. It is something personal between you and Jesus of course.

The Bible explains it--but you have to experience it.

2 Tim 3:15....and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 5:24..."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. [new birth--being born again by the baptism of the Holy Spirit]

John 1:12.....Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

1 Tim 1:15-16.....Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

1 John 2:3-6.....We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

David. It is a very sad thing for me to witness all of this. Faith may have won in condemning the Church. It may look as if I have lost. But, I'm sure that those who see know.

One week means nothing. Eternaty is a long time.

Think about what you are not doing, David.

My last post.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

rod???

I said to Emerald that I know he is *not* really this dense!!

Dense means slow or thick--and he was acting that way--but I said I knew he isn't really that dense. He was completely not seeing what I was saying--on purpose--I think.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 31, 2004.

"If you are gonna ban me" - rod

Sorry rod, I'm not banning you any time soon. :) The imposter thing was what caused me to say that. I was a church so I'll sort things out.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

Someone is impersonating me rod, I have not said a thing since I've been away for a couple of hours. And your new team is the wildcats.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

James, Emily,

I'm sorry, but I had to delete the messages as you were responding to the imposter and not the real David :)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

Ok, guys, this is the real david now, and you can tell because I have deleted all the imposters messages.

Other moderators, check for this address

Doing a reverse DNS now: 68.170.95.219 maps to ... md-wmnsmd-cuda1-c8c-219.chvlva.adelphia.net

Delete Any and All messages from this IP.

Also, I will not be posting for a while till this jerk gives up and stops being a little baby. Dude, you got banned, live with it!

rod,

Again, sorry for this mess, but I hope you come back.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

Add this one to the list too:

Doing a reverse DNS now: 68.170.95.219 maps to ... md-wmnsmd-cuda1-c8c-219.chvlva.adelphia.net

Jerk.

rod,

Check for my email.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

rod said: But, the Catholic faith is much different because it brings together all people into one faith. Jesus Christ is OUR Saviour. Yes, we each experience His blessings, love, and grace in a personal way, but ultimately we are to be a family in worship and faith in Him under one doctrine of faith, not everyman for himself kind of doctrine. I truly believe that Catholicism is the path that leads to faith in Christ.

rod, unfortunately my first post about this had to be deleted since I responded to the "imposter David" as well as to you. However, I basically said that this statement of yours above is beautiful and is one of the many reasons that I became convinced of the truth of Catholicism. It's no longer a "just me and Jesus" mentality, but it's the idea of a *communion* of saints (both alive and passed on). We all have a relationship with Jesus, and together we express that in praise to God. I believe this is what heaven will be like.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

David. I wasn't sure if it was you or not. I'm truly sorry for the mess. My eyes widened to hear the bashing from the boggus posts and elected to shut my posts down in order to avoid further confusion. I'm glad to know that it wasn't you who made the fake posts. We've come a long way and I should have known better than to believe that it was you in those boggus posts.

Emily, thank you. Your understanding is light years away from mine, but I'm getting it, gradually.

I do think that a week off from this forum will benefit all concerned. I honestly can't take anymore hits on my beliefs and faith.

I once drove by the old monestary there in Mission (on the river).

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.

Yes, I think I'll be taking a break from the forum too. I kind of lost it last time Gail started with her anti-Protestant rhetoric. I'll just come in once in a while to check up on the jerk that's doing these impersonations. He must be an Eagle ;)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 31, 2004.

Catholics believe in that faith and works are required to God to Heaven. This means that When one has faith, works must follow. When one does works, if they also have faith they will go to Heaven. Both are required.

Protestants believe that only faith is required. This means that when one has TRUE faith, works will be done as a part of that true faith in Christ. However these works are not required and do not earn salvation.

To answer Emerald's question, if one has a devotion to Mary, one CAN go to heaven if that devotion leads one to Christ. By praying to Mary and the other saints, we just ask that they help us on our journey to know Christ. They are guides.

Regarding sacraments and what not. John 9:38 - We saw people casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop them. 39. Jesus tells them not to stop them.

This is what the Church does. Miracles are performed in the name of Chirst. The use of objects to do that is very old. Christ's cousin (I think), Jude, had a coin with Christs head on it and he used it to drive out demons and to heal people. However, it is not the Church or the person that does these things, but Christ through the person. For only Christ has that authority.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

Scott..,

I guess you miss this point:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!.....

Catholics think that *but only he who does the will of my Father* supports that faith+works gets you to into heaven--but obviously not.

If you really read this verse in its context., you will see that Jesus exposed those people who sounded religious--who claimed to follow the rules--who did all the *works*--but who did not have a relationship with Him.

On that day--only our relationship with Him will matter. Our acceptance of Him as our Savior--which results in obedience, will be what matters.

Many people think that if they are "good" people and say religious things, they will be rewarded with eternal life--but in reality., faith in Jesus--and knowing Him is what will count.

The good works are just the evidence of our faith and of our resulting obedience. There are those who acted religious and did good deeds-- but were not saved because they didn't have a personal relationship with Christ. He didn't know them......

"Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?"

And Jesus told them--

"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!....."

******************************************

Also--let me point out that Jude was Jesus' brother--not cousin.

I know you'll argue that they used the same word for brother even when refering to cousin because there was no word for cousin in Hebrew. But I point out that the New Testament was written in Greek--not Hebrew or Aramaic. There is a word for cousin in Greek (anepsios). Adelphos means brothers/sisters. If what the Catholic Church claims about the word adelphos also being the meaning for cousin in the New Testament.,then why would it not be used in Colossians 4:10--where Barnnabus' cousin is mentioned? The word used for his cousin was anepsios.

My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.) Col. 4:10

Could you refer me to the verses in Scripture where you find this story about Jude casting out demons with a coin?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 02, 2004.

Faith says:

"Could you refer me to the verses in Scripture where you find this story about Jude casting out demons with a coin?"

I don't believe that Scott was putting this story on par with Scripture, however given the following verse, I am not convinced that it is inconsistent with scripture:

Acts 19:12

so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

The subject is not magic--but whether or not Jude was a brother or cousin. I knew the coin thing made no real biblical sense.

I think God chose to reveal his power through certain people.

That doesn't mean we can do the same thing. This is evident in the very next verses where some Jews tried to do the very same thing and drive out demons by evoking the name of the Lord. The problem is that they were not filled with the power from the Holy Spirit. The evil spirit that they were trying to drive out with their magic words said to them--"Jesus I know--Paul I know., but who are you?"

Many who had been practicing scorcery., confessed their evil deeds and acknowledged that Jesus is Lord.

Seeing a rare moment when the Lord reveals His power--even through these items--is not liscence for us to do the same thing. If it isn't in the Scriptures--then I don't believe it.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 02, 2004.

Faith says:

"If it isn't in the Scriptures--then I don't believe it."

You certainly can believe that if you want, although it is not a scriptural practice. The bible never says don't trust anything that isn't written in the Bible, it says be prudent with what is not written in scripture.

Of course, some protestants don't even believe what is written in the bible. For example, does your church do either one of the following scriptural practices?

1. Annoint the sick with oil and pray over them? 2. Encourage people to confess their sins to one another?

I have only been to one protestant church that did annointing and none encouraged the practice of confessing our sins to one another.

James 5:14-16.

14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.

Thanks Rod for your encouragement.

What I admire about Elpidio, among several more things, is his sense of mission to bring people of different religions under one doctrine, one theology. I don't know how he will be able to accomplish his mission. The Catholic Church has had her dissenters.

I know I had been an influence in my own family.

It took me a while, Rod. I encouraged my family to become Catholics (roman). Then at age 20 my faith began to crumble. Somehow that has affected some members of my family.

one brother and one siter are still Roman Catholics.One is a eucharistic minister. One is a Catholic Yahwist, like my mother. They believe everything Catholic except that they believe God is yahwheh. You met me as a Catholic Yahwist in the internet. One brother is still unsure.

My wife is a Christian Yahwist like me. One sister is a Catholic Yahwist. Another unsure. One tried Protestantism (Pentecostal apostolics), the rest are catholic.

So I was a Catholic (Roman) from age birth til age 20. Then I became a Catholic Yahwist (who still thin k they are Roamn Catholics since they obey they follow the Pope) from 1983 til December 2003.

In January 2004 I became the Christian Yahwist. My symbol is a Star of David with a cross in the center. I carry that as a necklace now.

I became the Man of Yahweh first on July 23, 2000 when Yahweh and Jesus appeared to me. In the internet in November 2001 in E-mails to President Bush.

The Christian Yahwist.

The Man of Yahweh.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

Yes James.., my church annoints and prays over people. Not only the sick.., but people in need too.

My church layed hands on me and prayed with me when I received Christ- --and another time when I was asking for relief from anxiety.

We are also encouraged to bring our confessions and any other circumstances before the people in question. And when and if that doesn't work--we can come to our church for support. My church works exactly as did the churches in the New Testament.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 02, 2004.

In defense of faith:

She is right i pointing out that what we have as the New Testament is in Greek now. In Greek there are words for brother and cousin. So Greek is less ambiguos than Hebrew or Aramaic.

know you'll argue that they used the same word for brother even when refering to cousin because there was no word for cousin in Hebrew. But I point out that the New Testament was written in Greek-- not Hebrew or Aramaic. There is a word for cousin in Greek (anepsios). Adelphos means brothers/sisters. If what the Catholic Church claims about the word adelphos also being the meaning for cousin in the New Testament.,then why would it not be used in Colossians 4:10--where Barnnabus' cousin is mentioned? The word used for his cousin was anepsios.

Except for the Gospels, and maybe James, no other book had an Aramaic original.

Thus, Paul by calling James the brother of Jesus in Galatians and I Corinthians twice (ch 8 and 15) shows James was his true brother and not cousin.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahwhe

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

Did any of the Apostles pray to any saints? They would have cringed at the thought of praying to any personality other than God.

Not only that, but it's a waste of time to pray to a person who can't hear you. A teddy bear may be a comfort to talk to, but really it's just silly child's play that's a waste of the time you could be using to make your requests known to the Father.

Why appeal to the King's subjects when you can appeal to the King Himself? Praying to Mary is not Christian, though, in the Apostolic tradition sense.

The term "Mother of God" is misleading and omits Christ's humanity or mixes the two natures. She was Mother of Christ.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), August 05, 2004.

Recommend Max's post be elevated to a new topic.

There are two points that deserve replies: Catholic teaching on intercession of the saints, and use of the term Mother of God; but this thread is getting too long.

With some digging in past threads, I bet someone could find that these points have already been replied to by someone like Emily, Emerald, James, or Ian.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 05, 2004.