Ok. Abortion is murder. We can all agree on that. And people who vote for pro-abortion politicians are accomplices to said murder, so they shouldn't take communion. I don't beleive that, but fine. But what about all the other forms of murder that go unpunished?

What about big tobacco? They put tons of nasty chemicals in their cigarettes like arsenic, cyanide, benzene, ect. and are the only industry that is NOT required to identify the ingredients in their products. Then they add more chemicals to make it more addictive and then they market it specialy to CHILDREN. They also disproportionately target minority communities by flooding them with billboards and advertisments. More than ten million people die from cigarettes world wide every year. Tell me this is not murder.

What about pollution? As I've pointed out before, Koch Industries knowingly pumped 91 metric tons of benzene into the air and water supply BECAUSE IT WAS CHEAPER THAN DISPOSING OF IT PROPERLY. Congress let them off the hook. Nobody had the courtesy to mention that to the people who would be breathing that air or drinking that water. They were totaly defenseless. HOW DOES THAT NOT EQUATE TO MURDER?

What about war? Report after report has shown that the Bush administration at best was hopelessly incompetant in their analysis of "inteligence" about Iraq's non-existent WMD's, and at worst deliberately misled the public to start this war. A thousand americans died as a result of that war. And for what? Is it worth the lives of your sons to go off and fight a country that has shown no agression towards you? But hey, what does Bush care? He knows nothing of sacrifice, he's had everything handed to him on a silver platter his whole life. He's never earned a penny independently. And he sure as hell wasnt going to fight, so daddy pulled some strings and got him into the Texas Air National Guard (jumping a year and a half wait list) and then let him go AWOL for over a year (which I beleive qualifies him as a deserter). And hell, why should he care if some kid gets shot in Iraq? Not like it's his kid. Hey, he's probably poor anyhow (since military recruiters disproportionately target poor communities, and for many people who can't afford college, the military can be a good way out), and we know how much compassion Dubya has for poor people. So it comes down to this: is it murder to let a thousand soldiers die because of negligence regarding some WMD's that aren't there? I think it is.

What about the death penalty? The United States is one of the only nations in the world that still executes children, the mentaly ill, and the mentaly handicapped (although I beleive the Supreme Court ruled that mentaly retarted people can't be executed in 2001, courts make it very difficult to prove mental retardation in a defendent). We join the prestigious ranks of Iran, Somalia, and China. Boy, doesn't stuff like that make you proud?In addition, the death oenalty disproportionately punishes minorities. A study in Georgia found that black killers of whites are 4.3 times more likely to recieve the death oenalty than white killers of blacks. Many poor people are railroaded through our justice system. Many are homeless and have recieved no education, so they don't know their rights. Take the case of Girvies Davis. He was arrested for armed robbery, of which the prosecution could produce no evidence other than a singed confession. Girvies was illiterate. He claimed the police took him for a ride in a car and told him if he did not sign the confession, they would shoot him "while trying to escape", which the police later admitted to doing. The paper confessed to the armed robbery and nine other murders. Girvies was executed. His crime? Being poor and black. This is not a rare, isolated incident. Many people are forced to use inexperienced, incompetant public defendents who know next to nothing about the law. Often, the prosecution will tell defendents to plead guilty (sometimes leading to the death penalty) because they will "go earier on them", and threaten them with the harshest sentence possible if they opt for a jury trial. Between 1900 and 1992 there were 416 documented cases of innocent people being sentenced to death. Most were were exonerated on death row before they were executed, although one third were put to death before being posthumously exonerated. As our justice system gets more hopelessly complicated, this number is only expected to rise. Is this not murder?

I've brought up these points before, and all you people want to argue about is the degree of murder. THERE IS STILL BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS. Tell me which of these secenarios is worse: a woman killing a baby, or a corporate CEO pumping a bunch of dealy chemicals into the water supply so he can save a quick buck. Do both not add up to murdering defenseless people? How can you pick and choose? Does God really care how many people you murder in cold blood? It seems to me that God would be more concerned with the fact that you murdered someone in the fist place than with the dgree of murder. But that's just my take.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), July 28, 2004

Answers

Ok. Abortion is murder. We can all agree on that. And people who vote for pro-abortion politicians are accomplices to said murder, so they shouldn't take communion. I don't beleive that, but fine. But what about all the other forms of murder that go unpunished?

{No form of Murder should go unpunished.Se below.}-Zarove

What about big tobacco? They put tons of nasty chemicals in their cigarettes like arsenic, cyanide, benzene, ect. and are the only industry that is NOT required to identify the ingredients in their products. Then they add more chemicals to make it more addictive and then they market it specialy to CHILDREN. They also disproportionately target minority communities by flooding them with billboards and advertisments. More than ten million people die from cigarettes world wide every year. Tell me this is not murder.

{I agree. I think Cigerets shoudl tell peopel what is inside them, or else be made ino a regulated substance, or outright illegal. Bu one injustice does not negate the other.}-Zarove

What about pollution? As I've pointed out before, Koch Industries knowingly pumped 91 metric tons of benzene into the air and water supply BECAUSE IT WAS CHEAPER THAN DISPOSING OF IT PROPERLY. Congress let them off the hook. Nobody had the courtesy to mention that to the people who would be breathing that air or drinking that water. They were totaly defenseless. HOW DOES THAT NOT EQUATE TO MURDER?

{well thcniclaly you can survuve this incedent, however, I agree that it was wrong, and congress was wrogn for allowign the incedent to go wihtout muhc notice. They shoudl have been punished. However, this does not mean Koch industries DIRECTLY murdered anyone. Polition may kead eventually to premature death, or may not, thats the problem. Its still wrong though, and I agree that they shoudl ahve been brought to a higher standard of Justice.}-Zarove

What about war? Report after report has shown that the Bush administration at best was hopelessly incompetant in their analysis of "inteligence" about Iraq's non-existent WMD's, and at worst deliberately misled the public to start this war.

{Moetheless, war is not the same thing as Murder, and, though peopel die in War, War is not really equatable with Aboriton.}-Zarove

A thousand americans died as a result of that war. And for what? Is it worth the lives of your sons to go off and fight a country that has shown no agression towards you? But hey, what does Bush care? He knows nothing of sacrifice, he's had everything handed to him on a silver platter his whole life. He's never earned a penny independently. And he sure as hell wasnt going to fight, so daddy pulled some strings and got him into the Texas Air National Guard (jumping a year and a half wait list) and then let him go AWOL for over a year (which I beleive qualifies him as a deserter). And hell, why should he care if some kid gets shot in Iraq? Not like it's his kid. Hey, he's probably poor anyhow (since military recruiters disproportionately target poor communities, and for many people who can't afford college, the military can be a good way out), and we know how much compassion

{This is just asseetion, s you cannot prove what goes on in th Mind of George Bush, this speculation, designed to ft your dim veiw, is not relaly germaine.

Again, War is not equel to Murder as it is an act of national interest.Thouhg I oppose the actual Iraq war, I cannot simpley call it Murder. }-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 28, 2004.

Anti-bush, you have to define your terms precisely in order to have a reasoned position rather than an emotional one.

Murder is defined as the intentional killing of another human being.

But people are killed all the time by other people BY ACCIDENT - and while dead is dead, the MORALITY of the act is different.

If you're driving down the free way and get distracted for a split second only to look up and see a child dart out into the road - and you hit him... you didn't do it INTENTIONALLY, and thus, even if the kid dies, you didn't MURDER him.

If a rapist breaks into your wife's home at 2am and she struggles with him such that his knife slips and he accidentally stabs himself - she didn't MURDER him. He's still dead, but not by murder.

If a company ENDANGERS the environment - that may be bad and immoral, but it would only be MURDER if the company knowingly and purposely polluted to directly kill human beings.

In all this again you have to take into account the act itself, the intent of the person doing the act, and the circumstances.

A mother killing her baby is very different morally from a soldier shooting an armed terrorist in a firefight. Both are dead, but the baby wasn't a threat to the life of the mother (certainly not in our technologically advanced culture) whereas some adult male shooting at you with an AK-47 is a threat.

To be morally equivalent, the terrorist would have to throw down his weapon, sue for peace, be handcuffed and then shot in the back of the head.

Or a CEO of some 'EVIL' corporation would have to knowingly pour pollution into a drinking resource, or into waters by a public beach or pool - with the specific intent to kill bathers. Polluting is SINFUL but not all sin is murder.

If you can't see the moral difference between an unborn child - the very definition of innocence - and someone caught raping or murdering another human being, (the definition of guilty) is tried, sent to prison, re-tried, re-tried, and then 10 years later put to death, then I'm afraid you'll never figure morality out.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.

I see all of these things as the wilfull killing of innocents. Period.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), July 29, 2004.

Not so. The intent is not to kill, thus it becoems wreckles sendangerment or manslaughter. War is killign in defnece of a national cause.

Never ae they considered Murder. evn if morlaly wrong.

By the way, I was right, soem polluters are barred form comunion.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 29, 2004.

Really?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), July 29, 2004.

"the intent to kill innocents"? So a company pours waste into the ground...and this is equal to you grabbing a .357 pistol, holding to some random person's head and pulling the trigger?

Anti-bush, this is where hyperbole and metaphor falls apart. Polluting - is just that, harming the environment. It endangers life - but doesn't directly kill people. I know, I have friends in the EPA!

Look, in order to not be a complete kook (and I'm not trying to call people names here) you have to be able to see the difference between harming someone and KILLING THEM.

Otherwise words cease having meaning and people start taking the law into their own hands out of desperation or fanaticism. In order to have a peaceful co-existence with people, one of the first things one has to do is maintain real communication - which means sharing a common vocabulary.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.