Alright, I need help with something here. What does one say to a woman who says a priest she knows says the Catholic Church once said "Women have weak memories, are undisciplined, impulsive and dangerous when given authority over anything." I told her the Chuch has never said such nonsense and she gave me quotes such as:

"A woman is her husband's property." - Saint Thomas Aquinas

"Woman was made to be a help to man. But she was not fitted to be a help to man except in generation, because another man would prove a more effective help in anything else." - Saint Thomas Aquinas

"While the soul comes from God, the father supplies the formative power without which the female matter could not receive it. For this reason, a child should love his father more than his mother, since the father principle of his origin in a more excellent way than the mother. He is the active principle, while the mother is a passive and material principle." - Saint Thomas Aquinas

"And in fact this blood [menses] is so detestable and unclean that ... through contact with it, fruits do not produce, wine turns sour, plants die, trees lack fruit, the air darkens; if dogs eat [the blood], they are then made wild with madness." - Saint Isidore of Seville

"Once when the orders of canons of deaconesses were recognized, they had their own status at the altar. However, the defilement of the ministry by those menstruating expelled them from the divine and holy altar." - Balsamon

"Adam was deceived by Eve, and not Eve by Adam. The woman summoned him to sin; it is just that he takes on the guidance of her, lest he be ruined again by female recklessness." - Decretum Gratiani

"It is the natural order in humans that females serve males and children parents, since in this is justice that the lesser serve the greater." - Decretum Gratiani

"A woman was the effective cause of damnation since she was the origin of lying and Adam was deceived through her, and therefore she was not able to be the effective cause of salvation since Orders effects grace in another and thus salvation." - Guido de Baysio

"Orders is for the more perfect members of the church since it is given for the distribution of grace to another. A woman however is not a perfect member of the church, but a male is." - Guido de Baysio (professor of canon law)

"Men must correct and even punish females. A husband is able to judge a wife." - Glossa ordinaria

"It is stated here that if the wives of clerics should sin, they should not kill them, but guard them lest they have the opportunity of sinning in something else, weakening them by beatings and hunger, but not to death." - Glossa ordinaria

"What is lighter that smoke? A breeze. What is lighter than a breeze? The wind. What is lighter than the wind? A woman. What is lighter than a woman? Nothing." - Glossa ordinaria

"Women may not hold positions of authority in the church. Women are forbidden to teach men, lest they think they should be held in esteem." - Huguccio

"Women are inferior from the very moment of creation." - Huguccio

"A male and not a female is said to be the glory of God for three reasons. First, because God appeared more powerful and more glorious in the creation of males than of females, for the glory of God was manifested principally through man since God made him per se and from the slime of the earth against nature, but the female was made from the man. Second because man was made by God with nothing mediating, which is not the case for the female. Third, because a man principally glorifies God, that is with nothing mediating, but a female glorifies God through the mediation of a male since a male teaches and instructs the female for the glorification of God." - Huguccio (professor of canon law)

"The reason for the difference [between the roles of men and women] is on account of the fragility, imbecility and less natural constancy and discernment of women." - Canonist Aegidius de Bellamera citing the reason women could not hold civil and public offices.

"The female sex is easily misled, weak, and without much sense" - Epiphanius

She also named off and I quote her: "Summis desiderantes (issued by Pope Innocent VIII which allowed the Inquisition to hunt down, torture, and murder thousands of innocent people (the majority woman) over superstitious nonsense.")

and

Inter Caetera {issued by Pope Alexander VI that resulted in the slaughter of tens of millions of Native people.)

I also believe one of these statements of which says, "Women have weak memories, are undisciplined, impulsive and dangerous when given authority over anything." She is really trying to make the Church look bad. How does one defend this.

Anything that can help I appreciate.

-- D Joseph (newfiedufie@msn.com), July 27, 2004

Answers

bump

-- D Joseph (newfiedufie@msn.com), July 27, 2004.

I urge you not to bother relying to what appear to be (mostly) bogas quotes out of context. Ask the person citing these quotations to give exact citations to the actual works of the author so that you can see if they are really the authors words. The "quotations" from St. Thomas Aquinas are, at best, parodies of his actual words and mostly seem bogas nonsense. When the anti-Catholic who has provided these "quotations" gives you actual citations, go to the original documents, find the context, consult a reputable commentator about the meaning of the text, and then rely. The shortest way to deal with such nonsense is to demand that the anti-Catholic bigot quote only authentic statements fo the Faith from an official Church document such as the "Catechism of the Catholic Church." What does it matter, in any case, what a writer from the 1200s thougth, if it has not been declared the official teaching of the Church? A theological opinion is not the defined doctrine of the Chruch. A careful reader find plenty of bigoted anti-semitic racist and bigoted quotations in Martin Luther and John Calvin AND give the cites to their works. It would be much harder to find those in St. Thomas, who is NOT an "official" declaration of faith of the Catholic Church in any case. This from someone who has studied St. Thomas formally for 7 years.

-- observer (nospam@notmaim.com), July 27, 2004.

Actually, I gave the quotes from the Catechism and She said they were only recent views. I said the Church as a whole has never taught such nonsense and she replied "The church "as a whole" (meaning each and every Catholic) may not have said such nonsense about women, but the churches early leaders and teachers certainly did" I was referring to infallibility but she doesn't understand that. She would probably wonder why there was a continuation of this kind of thought about women amonst church teachers if the magistrium taught differently. Check in the Papal Bull "THE MALLEUS MALEFICARUM" It says some things of the womans nature that can be looked down upon.

(http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/part_I/mm01_06a.html)

I was wondering if anyone can find some actual good comments towards women by the early Church or Church teachers that I can use?

Are there any quotes from the early Church leaders that actually help to honour women as our equals?

-- D Joseph (newfiedufie@msn.com), July 28, 2004.

The Maleius Malforum was written by Krammer, an inde[endant lunatic, and was DENOUNCED by the Pope, it was not a Paupal Bull.

Odd how peopel get confused, but the Witch Hunting Manual was discredited by th Pope and the majority of Bishops.

It was used by hysterical mobs to add soem credibility form member of the chruchm een if his mental stability was queastionable.

That said, some of her quotes do not make sence.

"And in fact this blood [menses] is so detestable and unclean that ... through contact with it, fruits do not produce, wine turns sour, plants die, trees lack fruit, the air darkens; if dogs eat [the blood], they are then made wild with madness." - Saint Isidore of Seville

The bracketed portions of the text do not actually appear int he real document.The text is refering to dietary acts, not to a womans menstration, and the Bibel tells us not to drink blood.

Or when this was said...

She also named off and I quote her: "Summis desiderantes (issued by Pope Innocent VIII which allowed the Inquisition to hunt down, torture, and murder thousands of innocent people (the majority woman) over superstitious nonsense.")

sorry, no. She's refering tot he witch trials, not the Inquesition. The Inquesition did not mainly kill women, and for superstitious nonsence. The Inquesition killed HERETICS ( Such as myself) for not followign CAHTOLIC teachings. Protestants where killed, and most who met an end in the Inquesition where male. further, most peopel brought before the tirbunal where NOT kiled, such as Gallilio. its most famous, btu misunderstood, defendant.

The witch trials, hwoever, where largley a secular affair,a nd oftent he chruch ( Cahtolic or Protestant) opposed such behaviour.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 28, 2004.

Then what was the "Summis desiderantes" for?

-- D Joseph (newfiedufie@msn.com), July 28, 2004.

D Joseph: Clearly your friend has no interest in understanding the Church. I would urge you to stop bothering to argue with her. The Quotations from Thomas Aquinas are bogas. The others are probably mostly bogus, but even if they are, the names attached to them (Huguccio, Guido, Gratian) are mostly canon law teachers at the University of Bologna in the 1200s. All of them quoted texts that they disagreed with in order to argue against them or pose problems for students, you would have to see the context. None of these people are "arthorative" for Catholic doctrine. As above noted by another poster, the Malleus isn't a papal document either. Give up on this bigot.

-- observer (nospam@notmail.com), July 28, 2004.

Then what was the "Summis desiderantes" for?

-- D Joseph

Glad you askeed. Below it is pesented in its entirety.

The text from Innocent VIII's Papal Bull Innocent VIII: BULL Summis desiderantes, Dec. 5th, 1484 Bullarium Romanum (Taurinensis editio), sub, anno 1484. Innocent, bishop, servant of the servants of God, Ad futuram rei memoriam. Desiring with supreme ardor, as pastoral solicitude requires, that the catholic faith in our days everywhere grow and flourish as much as possible, and that all heretical depravity be put far from the territories of the faithful, we freely declare and anew decree this by which our pious desire may be fulfilled, and, all errors being rooted out by our toil as with the hoe of a wise laborer, zeal and devotion to this faith may take deeper hold on the hearts of the faithful themselves. It has recently come to our ears, not without great pain to us, that in some parts of upper Germany, as well as in the provinces, cities, territories, regions, and dioceses of Mainz, Ko1n, Trier, Salzburg, and Bremen, many persons of both sexes, heedless of their own salvation and forsaking the catholic faith , give themselves over to devils male and female, and by their incantations, charms, and conjurings, and by other abominable superstitions and sortileges, offences, crimes, and misdeeds, ruin and cause to perish the offspring of women, the foal of animals, the products of the earth, the grapes of vines, and the fruits of trees, as well as men and women, cattle and flocks and herds and animals of every kind, vineyards also and orchards, meadows, pastures, harvests, grains and other fruits of the earth; that they afflict and torture with dire pains and anguish, both internal and external, these men, women, cattle, flocks, herds, and animals, and hinder men from begetting and women from conceiving, and prevent all consummation of marriage; that, moreover, they deny with sacrilegious lips the faith they received in holy baptism; and that, at the instigation of the enemy of mankind, they do not fear to commit and perpetrate many other abominable offences and crimes, at the risk of their own souls, to the insult of the divine majesty and to the pernicious example and scandal of multitudes. And, although our beloved sons Henricus Institoris and Jacobus Sprenger, of the order of Friars Preachers, professors of theology, have been and still are deputed by our apostolic letters as inquisitors of heretical pravity, the former in the aforesaid parts of upper Germany, including the provinces, cities, territories, dioceses, and other places as above, and the latter throughout certain parts of the course of the Rhine; nevertheless certain of the clergy and of the laity of those parts, seeking to be wise above what is fitting, because in the said letter of deputation the aforesaid provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, and other places, and the persons and offences in question were not individually and specifically named, do not blush obstinately to assert that these are not at all included in the said parts and that therefore it is illicit for the aforesaid inquisitors to exercise their office of inquisition in the provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, and other places aforesaid, and that they ought not to be permitted to proceed to the punishment, imprisonment, and correction of the aforesaid persons for the offences and crimes above named. Wherefore in the provinces, cities, dioceses territories, and places aforesaid such offences and crimes, not without evident damage to their souls and risk of eternal salvation, go unpunished. We therefore, desiring, as is our duty, to remove all impediments by which in any way the said inquisitors are hindered in the exercise of their office, and to prevent the taint of heretical pravity and of other like evils from spreading their infection to the ruin of others who are innocent, the zeal of religion especially impelling us, in order that the provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, and places aforesaid in the said parts of upper Germany may not be deprived of the office of inquisition which is their due, do hereby decree, by virtue of our apostolic authority, that it shall be permitted to the said inquisitors in these regions to exercise their office of inquisition and to proceed to the correction, imprisonment, and punishment of the aforesaid persons for their said offences and crimes, in all respects and altogether precisely as if the provinces, cities, territories, places, persons, and offences aforesaid were expressly named in the said letter. And, for the greater sureness, extending the said letter and deputation to the provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, places, persons, and crimes aforesaid, we grant to the said inquisitors that they or either of them joining with them our beloved son Johannes Gremper, cleric of the diocese of Constance, master of arts, their present notary, or any other notary public who by them or by either of them shall have been temporarily delegated in the provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, and places aforesaid, may exercise against all persons, of whatsoever condition and rank, the said office of inquisition, correcting, imprisoning, punishing and chastising, according to their deserts, those persons whom they shall find guilty as aforesaid. And they shall also have full and entire liberty to propound and preach to the faithful word of God, as often as it shall seem to them fitting and proper, in each and all of the parish churches in the said provinces, and to do all things necessary and suitable under the aforesaid circumstances, and likewise freely and fully to carry them out. And moreover we enjoin by apostolic writ on our venerable brother, the Bishop of Stratsburg, that, wither in his own person or through some other or others solemnly publishing the foregoing wherever, whenever, and how often soever he may deem expedient... he permit [these inquisitors] not to be molested or hindered in any manner whatsoever by any authority whatsoever in the manner of the aforesaid and present letter, threatening all opposers... they may be, with excommunication, suspension, interdict and still other more terrible sentences, censures, and penalties. Let no man, therefore, dare to infringe this page of our declaration, extension, grant, and mandate, or with rich hardihood to contradict it. If any presume this, let him know that he incurs the wrath of almighty God and of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 28, 2004.