Gail: Faith and Works - Clement of Rome

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So, I was reading through the quotes (now links) that Gail provided us. I thought maybe she can explain this and engage in an actual discussion instead of just repeating the usual anti-Protestant rhetoric.

Jose Gallegos cites this about "Faith and Works", which was referred to us by Gail (which she claims agrees with her position):

"Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. 'For God,' saith [the Scripture], 'resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.' Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words." Clement of Rome,Epistle to the Corinthians,30(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:13

"For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?" Clement of Rome,Epistle to the Corinthians,31(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:13

" All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Clement of Rome,Epistle to the Corinthians,32(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:13

On an interesting pass through ccel.org, I went looking for Clement of Rome's writings they have available online and ran across his work titled "We are Justified Not by Our Own Works, But by Faith." (ANF, Vol I, First Clement 32-33)

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.129 For from him130 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.131 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, "Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven."132 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immoveable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word133 into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all,134 with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him-the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: "Let us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them."135 Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, "Increase and multiply."136 We see,137 then, how all righteous men have been adorned with good works, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.

I thought, Gail, you said you didn't believe in "faith only" salvation?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004

Answers

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004.

btw, wasn't Clement a Bishop of Rome?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004.

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004.

I really don't think Gallegos' quotes can be trusted. Engwer caught him misciting Origen and now he plucks Clement of Rome out of context..

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004.

Here is the site. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01- 05.htm#P171_20841

You can read it for yourself, though, I think Gail will respond by plucking things out of context again.

Or click here and then Click on "Clement of Rome" http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/TOC.htm

Btw, I thought it was claimed that this "faith only" salvation was recent :) It's nice to know that a Roman bishop agreed with us...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004.



Also, this is not a thread to argue about theology. So any posts condemning "faith only" will be deleted as it is way off topic. This thread is about Rome, and the miscitations Gail showed us.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 26, 2004.

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 27, 2004.

David,

You should have added the next two paragraphs where Clement helps explain faith and works. This is entirely in line with Catholic teaching. I don't see the point you are making about Gallegos. One of his quotes is the same paragraph you provided about faith from Clement. Catholics do not believe that we are justified by our own works without faith. It is only by faith and works accomplished by His grace and through love. Works need to be done in faith to be righteous.

Here are the following two paragraphs from Clement:

"Chapter XXXIV.-Great is the Reward of Good Works with God. Joined Together in Harmony, Let Us Implore that Reward from Him.

The good servant138 receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well- doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work."139 He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this,140 that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will. Let us consider the whole multitude of His angels, how they stand ever ready to minister to His will. For the Scripture saith, "Ten thousand times ten thousand stood around Him, and thousands of thousands ministered unto Him,141 and cried, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the Lord of Sabaoth; the whole creation is full of His glory."142 And let us therefore, conscientiously gathering together in harmony, cry to Him earnestly, as with one mouth, that we may be made partakers of His great and glorious promises. For [the Scripture] saith, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which He hath prepared for them that wait for Him."143

Chapter XXXV.-Immense is This Reward. How Shall We Obtain It?

How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence,144 faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! And all these fall under the cognizance of our understandings [now]; what then shall those things be which are prepared for such as wait for Him? The Creator and Father of all worlds,145 the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty. Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith rewards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition.146 For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those that take pleasure in them that do them.147 For the Scripture saith, "But to the sinner God said, Wherefore dost thou declare my statutes, and take my covenant into thy mouth, seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee? When thou sawest a thief, thou consentedst with148 him, and didst make thy portion with adulterers. Thy mouth has abounded with wickedness, and thy tongue contrived149 deceit. Thou sittest, and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest150 thine own mother's son. These things thou hast done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest, wicked one, that I should be like to thyself. But I will reprove thee, and set thyself before thee. Consider now these things, ye that forget God, lest He tear you in pieces, like a lion, and there be none to deliver. The sacrifice of praise will glorify Me, and a way is there by which I will show him the salvation of God."151

Part of the difficulty in our discussions lay in terminology between Catholics and Protestants. Here is a link to an article by Jqmes Akin that helps explain the differences between the Catholic idea of "faith alone" and the Protestant idea of "faith alone." Let me know if you disagree with any of the thoughts on terminology differences. The link is http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

There are areas where Catholics and Protestants are not that far off in understanding and areas where we are. I think we can learn a lot just understanding how our definition of terms (and connotation of words) differs because many times we read the Early Church Fathers through the prism of our theological baggage. This includes "professional" apologists. That's why I believe we can both look at the same quote from a Church Father and say, "This guy clearly believes what we do," even though we might believe different things. This could be at the root of accusations of misquotes from the Church Fathers.

-- Andy S (ask3332004@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.


Here is a link that explains the term justification in Catholic teaching:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/justcath.htm

Andy S (formerly of aszmere@earthlink.net)

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), July 28, 2004.


Perhaps, David, if you really want me to reply to this post, you should start the dialogue off in an equitable manner. The first thing you do, above, is accuse me of "anti-Protestant rhetoric."

Then you accuse me of taking things out of context, WHEN IT IS ACTUALLY YOU who continually quote the fathers, or parts thereof, to prove your point only to be humbled time-and-time again, as Andy so admirably has done above.

As Andy says, it is not faith versus works, it is BOTH, which is so COMPLETELY clear from a thorough reading of the N.T. that you have to be blind in one eye, and can't see out of the other, to miss it!!! Clement reflects perfectly the teachings of the Church as routed in the N.T.

Gail

P.S. BTW, I appreciate others input on these ridiculous "challenges" David keeps sending my way this week. I am working two jobs, volunteering at Vacation Bible School, I have laryngitis, bronchitis and one of my close friend's husbands was killed in a motorcycle accident yesterday!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 28, 2004.



I'm sorry about your friend's death, Gail.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.


My condolences for your friend passing away, Gail.

Maybe to what David objects in his latest number of posts directed at you was that you were proselitizing you new Catholic views on Protestants like him.

It is normal for people to be enthusiastic about their new found faith, in you case , the Catholic Church.

As such, since you have a Protestant background where scripture is used frequently , you can easily attack Protestants views better.

What you said doesn't bother me. I came out of catholicism. I know what irritates catholics. Proof of that is John Gecik. He has done his best to get me banned from the catholic Forum. 20% of his posts other than saints' posts were directed at me. Not Counting Eugene Chavez, Enrique, David@excite,....

The only reason I probably have survived is because of Paul M. Ed deleted many of my posts.

When Rod and I joined this Forum was to make it more inclusive of other people's beliefs. Only David, back then with the Assemblies, now a in a different Protestant Church, and Kevin from The Churches of Christ were the main ones her.

Of the new Catholic converts I have dialogued with ,Emily is another great debater. She knows Protestant weaknesses.

But like any convert, Gail, the fire usually dies down. many people leave their new found Church.

This may happen to Emily. I don't know about you. If older than 40, you may die a Catholic. Younger than 30???? I doubt it.

Any branch God Yahweh has planted will never dry up,Gail.

The Way-The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus is one of them.

As for the catholic Church, there are too many claiming they are apostolic:

-The Roman catholic Church claiming 1 billion but with less than 20% attendance.

-The Orthodox Churches with about 250 million (at one time largest before 1200 AD)

-The Anglican/Episcopal with about 70 million (classified among Protestants)

-The Lutherans with about 65 million (classified with protestants)

-....

-The Syrian Orthodox with about 3 million (at one time the largest church before 200AD)-classified as jacobite

-The AssyrianOrthodox with about 3 million before classified as Nestorian

-The Copts with about 7 million in Egypt

-The Arminians with about 3 million (oldest Christian nation)

-The Ethiopians with about 35 million, second oldest Christian nation.)

....

And many minor ones

So the claim that there is one Cathlic Church is like saying there is only one Protestant denomination.

Yet, there is only one Church established by Yahweh- The Way-The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus.

My Mom, a Roman Catholic, was the first to tell me that she had dreams starting in 2000, where not only did she see the destructiion of the Catholic Church, but that me and one of my cjhildren were going to create the biggest Church of the 21st century. My wife had the same dreams in 2002 up until now in 2004.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.


In 2002, my wife saw a Lady telling her in a dream:

(There was something about the Catholic Church.)

I will leave you 20 million because my children were not worthy.

Then she saw 69 doves flying.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.


Gail,

I am sorry to hear about your friend's death too. I hope things calm down a bit in your life. Peace and perseverance.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), July 29, 2004.


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