Also, Catholics believe that Mary rose to Heaven without dying like Elijah did.

2Ki 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2Ki 2:13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan

Blue Bible.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004

Answers

Every creature must die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Thus, I don't think Enoch ascended physically.I don't think Elijah ascended physically. I don't think Mary ascended physically. Neither do I think Jesus ascended physically.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

"Thus, I don't think Enoch ascended physically.I don't think Elijah ascended physically. I don't think Mary ascended physically. Neither do I think Jesus ascended physically."

The Bible tells us differently. God can do anything. If God decided to bring someone into Heaven that hadn't died yet, then who are we to question that.

Mary had already died when God took her body into Heaven. Christ was God, so He could do what he wanted.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Did Jesus ascend into heaven in his physical body? If not, how could the gathered witnesses watch Him ascend? If His own physical body could rise into heaven, then clearly a physical body can be in heaven, and God therefore could assume into heaven any other physical body He chose to assume. Besides, it's really just a matter of timing. The Bible tells us that the bodies of the dead will eventually be raised. So its just a question of when the body of a particular person will be assumed into heaven.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 21, 2004.

I think 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 holds the answer:

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

When Jesus returns, our bodies are instantly changed to something else. Is this a physical form? Well I don't know. I'll have to wait and find out. We certainly do not enter into Heaven in our current physical form. Notice also that the passage teaches that not everyone will die. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 also confirms that some will be left alive until the coming of Christ.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

I think we should consider reading that Scripture from the spiritual idea instead of the physical. I'm not so confident that the verse is referring to the physical at all. I think it is referring to faith and the sudden change in faith of those who were in the state of "sleep", meaning without faith. Why do I think that? Because, "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,...".

That's my view. You can send me your cards and letters to:

David Ortiz
Pointless Rod Ave.
Cyberspace, TX 1234567

.................. ...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

rod,

Why must you drag me into this?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

I was just supporting you previous remark about me not getting the point "oftenly". That's all.

[In my best Shirley Temple voice] And if you can break your rules about ad hom's, then I can too, David. (In my best Shirley Temple pouty face) :P

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Ah, but rod, remember? The moderator is on vacation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Oh, I thought he was "out to lunch". :o

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Would you also happen to know what I meant by a "grain of salt"?

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

No, I don't.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Ohh, a skeptical attitude?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Well, I'll tell you.

I'm glad that you trust me with at least so much.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Skeptical attitude?

Uh......am I still clueless or "oftenly" unable to get the point?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

...and then they will not reply . I'll be left with unanswered posts. Hit and run............ #(

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

clueless in seattle.. :p

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

I accept you apology. (That's the best I can get, Folks.)

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Imagine the scene where Tom Hanks is lost in a deserted island. He is dancing around a huge fire he has just built. Now, Imagine me in the same situation, but instead I'm proposing the following (In my best Tom Hanks voice/character.)

I say that we should have next week be proclaimed David Ortiz week for the wonderful job of being moderator. We all have a warm place in our hearts for David. He deserves our gratitude and respect for the many things he does behind the scenes and ....well, ok....in front of the scene with this forum. I, you, us, and those lurkers, all together,"Hip Hip Hooray!" (repeat two more times).

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

No.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Ok

:(

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 22, 2004.

Rod, in responding to Luke,

you stated, I think we should consider reading that Scripture from the spiritual idea instead of the physical. I'm not so confident that the verse is referring to the physical at all

In response to what Luke said about the resurection of the body:

I think 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 holds the answer: I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

So if we say that passage is spiritual, Rod,

can this also be spiritual?

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

If that is also is spirtual,Rod, then, this also is spiritual

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake [it], and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

The bread in the eucharist never becomes Jesus real physical body.

Your Spider friend,

The Christian Yahwist The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.

Hi Elpidio

I see your point. But, let me add one import point. The Manna was real and it was a precursor of what was to come. The Manna was physical and it also maintained the literal and fugurative meanings. So, we can look at the retrograde inversion of the bread that comes from Heaven, too. Somehow, the symbolism becomes real(ism). It is so similar to our own ascension into Heaven: 1) it is spiritual, 2) it will be physical, too. We will be in Heaven both in a physical and spiritual existence.

I have never heard a beautiful explanation of transubstantiation and I probably never will. I still do not understand it, but I can't explain the existence of God, either.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.

Manna assumed the spiritual sense when in John Jesus is discussing about the bread from Heaven, referring to manna. But manna is not from Heaven, Rod. It is actually something produced in that area of Palestine. Remember that it looks like coriander seed (semillas de cilantro).

What Jesus meant was that good provided that in abundance. Jesus was like a bread from Heaven too, but better. Our belief in him as the one sent from God Yahweh satisfies our hunger from what God really wants from us.

And the reason why you have never found a good explanation for transubstantiation is because bread never ever turns into flesh before you eat but only after you eat it. Then your stomach churns it. Your intestines absorb it. It enters the blodd stream. Then becomes part of your muscle tissues. Then it becomes flesh, Rod.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 26, 2004.

Yes, but the Jews believed that the manna was sent by God, which it was. Sorry, David. I should have provided footnotes. Ok, (1)

(1)Exodus.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 26, 2004.

>>Thus, I don't think Enoch ascended physically.I don't think Elijah ascended physically. I don't think Mary ascended physically. Neither do I think Jesus ascended physically.<<

If by physical you mean solid flesh and blood that is corruptible and subject to death and mortal, then you're right to that degree.

If by physical you mean something absolutely unseen and untouchable and without the body that the person lived on earth in, then you are incorrect.

Enoch and Elijah were changed and entered heaven without dying. Jesus died, but became alive again. After this, He definitely appeared with a physical body, even telling his disciples to look at it as proof that he was not a ghost. He would not have given physical proof to prove he was not a ghost if he was actually just a ghost.

When Jesus rose, the cells of his body became spirit-driven and immortal. He could pass through walls and disappear and reappear and touch people physically. He did not ceased being physical. He did not cease to possess the same body He died in. Denying this Truth is denial of the central point of the Gospel.

When Jesus ascended, He ascended unto God and sat down on the very Throne of God. We do not know what sort of physical-ness He has now, but we can be sure that He has not lost his physical body. He is still a Man - the only Mediator between God and us. He will return in a very physical and visible way and resurrect the dead and judge all. He will not stand and judge you in some invisible ghost form. When we're judged by the Christ, it will be a very physical experience.

Roman tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven, but there are major doubts about that dogma which didn't exist from the beginning. Not all the "Apostolic" Churches hold that same position - even ones that pray to Mary.

In regards to the verse, "flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God" - of course our flesh and blood cannot inherit a spiritual realm, but that doesn't mean our bodies will not enter into heaven. Our souls inherit the spiritual kingdom, but our bodies will be changed into a form that can inhabit such a higher realm, a higher frequency of existence. We will enjoy the Kingdom in our bodies, but definitely not in their current form.

Light is physical. If you can imagine our bodies being turned into light... they would still be physical, but not in the same physical form as we know now - they'd exist at a higher frequency.

Personally, I believe our bodies will turn into something like physical light, like angels which shine brightly, for example, the shepherds saw bright angels and Jacob was able to see bright angels on the ladder to heaven etc. We'll be able to commune with angels on whatever their frequency is, but we won't lose our physical identity.... unless we were REALLY ugly lookers on earth, then we'll need a total makeover.... No... just kidding!!! We'll all appear radiant and beautiful like angels and Christ will be the most radiant and beautiful of all.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.

Max, you have given me one of the best explanations I have seen so far in my life.

I like you argumnet here, especially.

From -- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.

Light is physical. If you can imagine our bodies being turned into light... they would still be physical, but not in the same physical form as we know now - they'd exist at a higher frequency.

Personally, I believe our bodies will turn into something like physical light, like angels which shine brightly, for example, the shepherds saw bright angels and Jacob was able to see bright angels on the ladder to heaven etc

The reason for this is the dream revelation I had on July 23, 2000. When God Yahweh and I were speaking to each other, his whole body was full of light. It was hard to tell where the eyes, mouth,.... were.

His light shone light a soft light bulb.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh The Cjhristian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.

Thank you...finally some intelligent life!!!! There's a debate going on in the office and you clarified everything.

This is the best explanation I too have seen. At work my stance was that we would obtain some "Supernatural State" if you will. We will maintain the same physical appearance but ofcourse not the same physical state.

Ponder if you will when Jesus was first revealed, he was glowing his garments an unbelievable white. When Moses came down from the Mountain he too glowed (though he still died, because he was in the presence of God) and whose to say the Elijah too did not glow, his chariots were afire!!!. So maybe this glowing state is what we "regular" humans see of the SUPERNATURAL STATE :S

Thanks Again Max

-- Sharmaine Strachan (sharmstrachan@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Maybe what you said could be a good definition for the word soulSharmaine Strachan,

We will maintain the same physical appearance but of course not the same physical state.

The Spirit must be shapeless in the beginning. Then it joins the body. This creates a new transformation. Once the body dies, there is a second transformation which takes into account the shape of the body.

The Christians Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

The original question is confusing and almost self answering...

Genesis tells us that there are three parts to a human being.

The physical body made of the dust of the earth will return to the earth.

Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

One of the reasons GOD created us in this manner is that he wanted a creation that was removed from Heaven and it's inherent Holy influences. Then he can say that one of his creations praises him through their own free will.

THe spirit of man is his ability to choose, discern, think and rationalise. The inherent ability for humans to choose is the reason for the whole "Let us make man in our image" thing...

The soul came from GOD and is the only part of us that GOD is really interested in.

Mark 8:36 - For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

This physical body is only a house for our soul while on the earth. So in heaven, there is no need for it and its inherited sinful nature.

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Now when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus' soul was still in the tomb. But the soul needs a physical body to exist in to interact with other humans on the earth.

Even after Jesus rose, he could not interact with Humans...

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So we could even say Jesus came and went from Heaven a few times after his resurection. And how could he do this?

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mark 7:16 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

-- Technical Support Manager (support@gwsbahamas.com), July 29, 2004.