Catholics , Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses,...believe that Jesus rose physically from the dead.

How can you prove it?

How can you be 100% sure Jesus rose physically?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004

Answers

Paul makes the resurrection his theme in ch. 15 of i Corinthians. 1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Was he speaking of a physical resurrection as all pharisees did believe in his time?

What proof do you have that Paul actually spoke to the physical body of Jesus after Jesus rose from the dead?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

At the university, in one of my religious studies courses, I was asked to discuss some traditional religious dogmas of Christianity from the point of view of believers, skeptics, and atheists.

My university proffessor, Dr. Hagan, a former Jesuit, wrote on my paper, , referring to my rguments on the resurrection.

Maybe is the biggie. Still no one has yet dare to respond.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.

http://www.tektonics.org/index2.html

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 23, 2004.

Even here, David, the Gospels, even Paul, don't agree. In the article, The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus Dr. William Lane Craig also lists some difficult problems. For me there is no problem for the tomb to be empty. Paul doesn't mention it.

From his article:

questions here need to be kept carefully distinct. First we must decide: (1) does Paul accept the empty tomb, and (2) does Paul mention the empty tomb? It is clear that (1) does not imply (2), but (2) would imply (1). Orin other words, just because Paul may not mention the empty tomb, that does not mean he does not accept the empty tomb …… .{11} It is also often urged that the empty tomb was no part of the early kerygma and is therefore not implied in the burial.

Second problem, who witnessed the resurrection? No one. Even the Gospels differ as to who was there first or to whom Jesus appeared first.

From his article:

The gospels all agree that around dawn the women visited the tomb. Which women? Mark says the two Maries and Salome; Matthew mentions only the two Maries; Luke says the two Maries, Joanna, and other women; John mentions only Mary Magdalene. There seems to be no difficulty in imagining a handful of women going to the tomb. Even John records Mary's words as 'we do not know where they have laid him'(Jn 20. 2). It is true that Semitic usage could permit the first person plural to mean simply 'I' (cf. Jn 3. 11, 32), but not only does this seem rather artificial in this context, but then we would expect the plural as well in v. 13.{62} In any case, this ignores the Synoptic tradition and makes only an isolated grammatical point. When we have independent traditions that women visited the tomb, then the weight of probability falls decisively in favor of Mary's 'we' being the remnant of a tradition of more than one woman. John has perhaps focused on her for dramatic effect.

Arriving at the tomb the women find the stone rolled away. According to the Synoptics the women actually enter the tomb and see an angelic vision. John, however, says Mary Magdalene runs to find Peter and the Beloved Disciple, and only after they come and go from the tomb does she see the angels. Mark's young man is clearly intended to be an angel, as is evident from his white robe and the women's reaction. {63} Although some critics want to regard the angel as a Markan redaction, the exclusion of the angelophany from the pre-Markan passion story is arbitrary, since the earliest Christians certainly believed in the reality of angels and demons and would not hesitate to relate such an account as embodied in vs. 5- 8.{64} And John confirms that there was a tradition of the women's seeing angels at the tomb, especially in light of the fact that he keeps the angels in his account even though their role is oddly superfluous. {65}

Does he appear first to Mary only as John does? To Clopas and (James) as Luke does? To Peter as Paul does in I Corinthians 15? Mark doesn't say to whom Jesus appeared first. 16:9-20 is missing from some of the oldest manuscripts, David.

When Jesus appeared to paul, he appeared in a dream. This was after the horse threw him down.Acts 9:1-8. There is no doubt Saul (Paul fell from the hrose. Hit a rock. He fainted. He hears a voice in his dream. It is Jesus. He then hears voices who awaken him. He hit the part of the head which controls vision.

That's the story, David. Paul never saw the physical fleshy Jesus ever after his resurrection.

According to Luke, not even the 2 men: Clopas and his companion recognized Jesus while walking along the way.

Does this really mean, then, that Jesus only appeared to his disciples like a ghost does?

John's last chapter doesn't go there. So I am back to square one.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.

Then, David, is the man at the tomb a man, an angel, or 2 men (angels)? Or is the gardener=man the same as Jesus?

THE BIGGIE>>>>>>>>>>

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.

Luke 24:39 "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Jesus

Jesus said He had flesh and bones after the resurrection.

"It is I myself! Touch me and see!"

JW's don't like this verse coupled with the verse where Jesus says He will raise His body in 3 days after they destroy it.

"a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Jesus was not just a ghost. He definitely rose fromt he dead. If you do not believe it, you're still dead in your sins.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

We get 4 different accounts in the Gospels about the resurrection, not counting Paul's.

The oldest recorded event of Jesus appearing to someone was that of Paul.When Paul saw Jesus, it was during his unconscious state after the horse threw him down. Paul never saw Jesus in the flesh. There is no proof from Paul he ever saw Jesus in the flesh.

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

The gospels don't record an appearance to James, Jesus brother, Paul does. Peter is not mentioned as the first to see Jesus in the Gospels either as Paul does. (i) 1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (actually 11 Max)

1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. (/i)

According to John, Jesus appeared first to mary, and then to the 10, then Thomas. Even Jesus says he is ascending tohis God, max. So he cannot be God Yahweh.

Mary never touched Jesus even thhough it seems she saw him first. Jesus was transformed in such way Mary did not recognize him.

Jhn 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

Jhn 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

Jhn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Jhn 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her.

Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

You cannot prove 100% with accuracy that Jesus was in the flesh other than Thomas.

Mark stops at 16:8, so 16:9-20 cannot be used as facts. Matthew mentionsn earthquakes, guards,... not mentioned in Luke or John. Luke says Jesus meets two men. They don't recognize him either.

So in conclusion, Jesus appeared to them as a transformed spirit, not in the flesh. That is why he wasn't recognized. Paul taks a lot about this type of pneumophysical body in I Corinthians 15.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

Just my vision:

In my eyes , it's impossible to raise from the death !! __ Once a body is dead , it starts to decompose , so , the body is damaged for good !!!!

Salut & Cheers from NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), August 03, 2004.

You are absolutely right, Laurent.

That is why the Jesus who appeared to Mary Magdalene, James,Peter,...Paul, was a transformed spirit.

What is surprising to me is the quickness in how Yahweh accepted Jesus righteous death. His disciples already saw him next to God Yahweh.

I will answer that in another thread.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.