For what possible reason would God create us? I'm guessing not to just to be His servants, that's what He has angels for. I don't remember coming across anything like this in the Bible. Anyone have any answers or guesses?

-- Henry (HenryJ525@dodgeit.com), July 20, 2004

Answers

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

1 Corinthians 11:7-8 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man.

The creation gives glory or is the glory of the creator. All of the animals and all of the universe are woven with the work of God, so all give glory. Man even more was created in the very physical image of God himself, a unique creature, to live in perfect relationship. Satan corrupted this, and thus man, while still mainting the physical work, lost the spiritial likeness. This is why the plan of the cross was made.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The blood of Jesus was spilled so that man could once again reflect the image of God, but not just physically, but spiritually. This is called Godliness. Everyone who put's on Christ is in the likeness of God once again. What reason would God create us? For His glory.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), July 20, 2004.

"For what possible reason would God create us?"

To Love us.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 20, 2004.

Humanity as a whole? Or you individually?

You as an individual have a different purpose on Earth than I do.

But overall, we're part of one big interwoven story... a love story filled with stories upon stories about how amazing God is... and we each get to help write ourselves into the overall story.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

I stumbled upon this today and remembered my post yesterday. I wrote this a few years ago, I think when I was 25:

Life is a story. And a story is drama. We ought always view our lives as an unfolding story... containing the elements of drama. There we find comedy, tragedy, victory, defeat, romance, bravery, and all other such themes of human life. Whether our life is in a current state of stagnation or if we are under constant changes and new suprises each day, our lives are an unfolding of a unique blend of themes - and although we may never get to share the depth of these themes and their impact, we certainly should be thankful that we had any part, whatsoever, in this grand universal play. Everything we do is written into the Master Play Script. It is written and cannot be undone. Therefore, we should always seek to write ourselves into the Master Play Script as an honorable person, worthy of praise by those powers above - especially of the Master Playwright Himself.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

We are part of an evolutionary process. We are no different too much genetically from chimpanzees, gorillas, mice, elephants, birds, whales, and most animals, even some mushrooms.

While they do things many times by instict, we do many by reasoning. Reasoning doesn't mean that what we do is right or wrong. It means we think about it. Once we think about it, we look for options,....

God as a light-creating Spirit cannot sense, feel, touch, smell, hear, perceive things the way we do. Yet, he wanted some of his creatures to experience this.

That is why, many of us, when someone dies, we still see that person in our dreams. Why? Because a person's spirit remains. This means the human Spirit becomes like that of God. So if the Spirit becomes almost like thatnof God, then the Spirit had to be there from day one from God.

Thus, God Yahweh touches the universe through our senses. We came from God Yahweh. We return to him.

The Christian yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

>We are part of an evolutionary process.<

Mankind will "evolve" so much it crowns the anti-christ and will worship him the world over.

>We are no different too much genetically from chimpanzees, gorillas, mice, elephants, birds, whales, and most animals, even some mushrooms.<

And don't forget corn... fact is, all life is similar genetically. Does that necessarily mean all life comes from the same genetic soup or the same Writer of genetic code?

>While they do things many times by instict, we do many by reasoning.<

No, animals reason too on a simple level - like some simple humans. Watch a cat.

>Reasoning doesn't mean that what we do is right or wrong. It means we think about it. Once we think about it, we look for options,....<

Animals operate according to "thinking" and "options" too. Humans do not have the exclusive ability to think and choose among options. Look at a cat or a dog for your nearest example.

>God as a light-creating Spirit cannot sense, feel, touch, smell, hear, perceive things the way we do.<

"God cannot..." I cringe when people begin sentences that way, unless it has to do with God's morality... "God cannot lie."

God is omnipotent and omniscient. He can descend or ascend. He can lower Himself and take a human nature and experience human life like we do... wait... He did! He even humbled Himself and tasted death!

>Yet, he wanted some of his creatures to experience this.<

Yes, He created humans and animals with bodies with the ability to sense and manipulate a physical world. Amazing. He also wanted creatures to commune with Him. Remember, God walked in the Garden too in His manifested form.

>That is why, many of us, when someone dies, we still see that person in our dreams. <

Huh? Because God wanted us to have a sensory life experience? That is one major leap in logic. You need to develop your premises a little better before you jump to such a drastic conclusion.

>Why? Because a person's spirit remains. <

Now you've leaped from talking about humans as simply genetically creatures evolved as relatives of "chimpanzees, gorillas, mice, elephants, birds, whales, and most animals, even some mushrooms" to talking about a person's spirit remaining?

First, you have to prove that "thinking" is exclusive to humans. You know it's not, if you've ever known any intelligent animals... i.e. horses etc.

Second, a person's spirit and his soul are two distinct things. You may need to develop your philosophy on this distinction before you can recognize where the difference between humans and animals lies.

>This means the human Spirit becomes like that of God. So if the Spirit becomes almost like thatnof God, then the Spirit had to be there from day one from God. <

That's a logical leap. There are other possibilities. If there are other logical possibilities that can be forwarded, then you cannot rest on your philosophical theory based on such weak premises. You must find some other premises to prove that point if that's your goal.

>Thus, God Yahweh touches the universe through our senses.<

Another huge logical leap if you're basing it on the premises you've laid out. Also, did God "touch" the universe before humans existed?

Or perhaps you mean this: only through human sense, which is connected to His eternal Spirit within us, can God experience or touch this realm.

You forget that, if God is omnipotent, He can create for Himself a sensory vehicle body that can manifest in the physical realm, enjoying all the same sensory experiences that we do. He is n ot reliant upon us in order to "touch" the Universe He created.

Also, don't forget God can not only create such a sensory vehicle- body, He can cause His Word (self-expression/consciousness) to transform into a vehicle-body generated from the seed of a virgin, indwell that vehicle-body from the moment of conception, and live among us as a friend, a brother, a prophet, a healer, a carpenter, a human being that subjects himself to the same rules he subjects all other humans to. Now THAT'S an amazing God.

>We came from God Yahweh. We return to him.<

We are not eternal. Only God is eternal. We are created beings. Something that is created has a beginning. God has no beginning. All creatures have a beginning.

If we are born again of the Eternal Spirit of God, we partake of the Divine Nature and can see that a part of our new selves has always existed. However, by nature, we are not born with this Eternal aspect.

We must be born again to enter the Eternal Kingdom/Family.

And I don't mean in the modern sense of being "born again" where you can decide one day, by your own will, to become a child of God by saying a "sinner's prayer" etc.

God imparts His Spirit to you when He reveals His Son to you. Only the Father can reveal the Son.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 22, 2004.

But......once we are born, we are eternal. We will either be eternally damned in hell or have eternal life with God. I do recall reading and hearing that.

Our soul is eternal.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 22, 2004.

Rod, your answer is well put. We are truly eternal.

Max, what is a spirit, what is a soul?

Scripture states that God breathed his Spirit (Ruach) into humas, and they become living souls (nefesh). That is, a soul is the fusion of Spirit with the flesh.

Gen 2:7 And the Yahweh God formed man [of] the dust of the ground , and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and man became a living soul . Souls can sin, and thus die. Lev 5:1 And if a soul sin , and hear the voice of swearing , and [is] a witness , whether he hath seen or known [of it]; if he do not utter [it], then he shall bear his iniquity .

Also, this psalm is misuderstood. It is usually applied to Jesus, but is in reality about King David.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption .

Hell here is the tomb (sheol). Also there is hope in a future life. Thus, David hopes Yahweh God will preserve him and one day he will partake in the resurrection of the dead.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.

>But......once we are born, we are eternal. We will either be eternally damned in hell or have eternal life with God. <

I'm of the persuasion that a soul that is damned will receive just punishment for the sins it committed and then the soul will be destroyed - totally destroyed. I understand this does not agree with Historic Christianity, so I know most disagree with me.

However, Jesus said, "Do not fear those that can destroy the body but cannot destroy the soul, but fear Him Who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell."

I believe, if the soul can be destroyed like the body can be destroyed, this means that the soul can be disassembled like the body is disassembled.

How great of punishment will it be to have holy angels take you into a dark cell that is so empty of God's grace that it burns your very consciousness? The only awareness is of Christ's displeasure. Then, how horrible it would be to see every one of your sins played in front of your consciousness for all to see while a new flame is lit for each sin you committed? How heavy the pain when you see how much the saints are enjoying Heaven while you toil in agony? All this while you realize that your soul will be beyond recovery after it is disassembled by the flames. There will be no coming back. This is everlasting punishment that will never be reversed. There will be no return from the burning darkness that envelopes your consciousness. The descent into destruction from existence is not something that possesses even a glimmer of hope - whereas everlasting burning might offer a soul a glimmer of hope that God might change His mind. Existence is the last grace you have. Along with the demons and Satan himself, you'll finally praise God that you ever even existed and plead that God might let you exist in flames forever if only it means that he spares you from extinguishing your soul from existence - taking away even the knowledge that God was once merciful, blessing you daily, and that He cared enough to offer you the grace of Christ. But such a plea is not heard and you know it, which adds to the slow agony of being destroyed by the fire of hell. The slow descent to nothingness, into a state of not even being a soul which Christ offered His life for, is the worst punishment imaginable, worse than burning without end because. in burning forever. at least you know that God once loved your soul and gave you good things in life. Descending into nothingness is worse, because it's as if you never existed, you never really mattered and every good experience and fun thing you ever did was absolutely vain and you will never be able to remember the good things God once gave you. It's as if God never loved you. Burning forever you may know that God once loved you, but by slowly burning out of existence, you will be tortured with the knowledge that you will at some point never again even remember the good that God once gave to you.

>Our soul is eternal.<

I highly disagree. Something that comes into existence in time cannot be Eternal, since it had a beginning.

The souls of believers receive Eternal Life upon being born of God, being united with the Eternal Spirit. However, the soul does not in itself become Eternal. It's union with the Eternal Spirit prevents it from ever perishing, but that does not mean that it is Eternal.

Every human soul has a certain relationship with God that gives it an eternal "spark" - it is conscious of the Eternal, but that does not make it Eternal... that is, without beginning and without end.

Something that has a beginning but no end is everlasting, but not eternal.

Only That which is Eternal is beyond the confines of time... It never had a beginning. Only God is Eternal.

Again, something cannot become Eternal that had a beginning. That's an absolute contradiction in definition.

Something either always existed or it came into existence at some point. Everything God created came into existence at some point, having a beginning. Thus, all things are subject to an end if God so chooses. A soul is not indestructible as Greek philosophers and Eastern religions teach.

A soul is that part of you that is conscious of God and your experience in Existence. A dog may enjoy a steak, but only a human can savor the moment of eating a steak, or making love, etc. because only a human has that special eternal perspective, being created with an awareness of the Eternal, that is, God.

Your spirit is your life energy which animates and gives life to your body and unites your body and soul. When you die, this energy goes back to God who gave it. Your soul is then disconnected from your body until the Last Day when God revives your body again at the resurrection to be judged.

The spirit which gives life to man has an eternal property to it. This is what gives your soul-experience on earth conscious awareness of the Eternal. Without this "breath from God," which is passed from your parents, you would not possess a soul. Animals are not given this same spirit and thus do not have souls. But, since you are in possession of this spirit, you are a soul.

It's not so much that you have a soul, it's that you ARE a soul. You (soul consciousness) possess a human spirit and a human body.

At death, the life-spirit goes back to God, your soul enters prison or paradise, and your body decays.

On the Last Day, your soul is released from prison or paradise and reunited by the life-spirit to your body in order to stand trial before the Judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who are Christ's sheep will receive their due for the good things they did while alive in the body. They will enter the Kingdom where they are given their everlasting treasures.

Those who are not Christ's sheep will receive their due for the evil things they did while alive in the body. These enter the lake of fire where they are given their everlasting punishment.

By everlasting punishment, this means God's painful destruction of the soul will never be reversed. Some will burn longer than others, but the end of burning does not mean the end of punishment. There is no end to the punishment under everlasting fire. The destroyed souls (which Christ mentions) will never come back into existence. Their punishment under everlasting fire (being slowly and painfully burned out of the fabric of existence) is permanent.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

If God predestined your existence from the beginning of His existence, that pretty much makes your soul eternal.

If what you say it true that the soul will cease to exist in Hell, than, all souls who are damned a hope in Hell. Those souls will have hope of ending their suffering in Hell when their souls will be destroyed. Than sounds like a good theology to me. That is right up there with the Apacolypse of Peter. He wrote that those souls in Heaven will look down into Hell and see the suffering. They will ask God to forgive them and bring them to Heaven. God agrees. "Bah, bye, bye Hell". No more suffering everyone has a get into Heaven free card, hello "Sola Gratia". Something is wrong, very wrong when theology is surmised by hope and intuition and rejects the truth. Sorry.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

[Sorry, my eyes are still blurry.]

If what you say is true that the soul will cease to exist in Hell, then, all souls who are damned will have hope in Hell.

(It should have read like that.)

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

How do you know that God predestined our existance from the beginning of his? God has no beginning, so it would be impossible to record how long He existed before the plan of man came to be. I agree with Max, our souls aren't eternal. But I think when Jesus said fear the one who can destroy the soul, I don't think this is an "end" to the soul. We are spiritually dead while in sin, and spiritually alive in Christ, yet even after we become alive, the body still dies. But then we are told that those in Christ go to everlasting life, while the wicked to everlasting contempt. Everlasting doesn't have an end.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

How do you know that God predestined our existance from the beginning of his?

That question does not originate with me. Calvinism seems to imply that. I do not believe in predestination. I was hoping to use Calvinism's own theology against itself.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

Oops! my comment should have read as:

"If God predestined your existence from the beginning after His existence, that pretty much makes your soul eternal."

That makes a big difference. Sorry, for the foul up.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

Anyway, from our point of view, the moment that we are aware of self, we have an eternaty to deal with--eternal damnation or eternal bliss. Obviously, we cannot be aware of an existence that never materialized. We did have a beginning. God has always existed and always will exist. It is our concern to be with God.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

Hi Elpidio,

You wrote that "God is a light creating spirit. It Cannot sense, feel, smell, hear or perceive as we do...God Yahweh touches the universe through our senses."

That reminds me of a gnostic idea I read somewhere, (Pagles maybe?) Roughly, God "as unknowable" wished to be known; was not content to be alone. The One God through emination created everything including matter which is not eternal. We physical humans are part of and house a "universal self" which is in all of us. This is why gnostics were so intent on knowing the self. Each soul is part of the one true God. "I in thou and thou in me" I believe there is an idea that God experiences himself through us. (Which could also be why we are here.)

While matter is clearly not eternal, any part of the spirit of God would be. --- Our body dies and our soul reunites with God. It may be a gnostic idea, but it doesn't seem like a bad one.

As Catholic, I accept the Church's teaching on death and final resurrection as stated in the Creed. However, I find myself trying not to think about that teaching because it in turn makes me think about the gnostic idea outlined above which I personally find myself liking more. I'm often troubled by competing ideas that make sense to me, but are not part of, or differ from the doctrines and teachings I should embrace.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 25, 2004.