This will be the continuation of this thread.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BbDB

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 18, 2004

Answers

>It is believed that faith brings works. My question is. What if it doesn't? <

What if corn oil doesn't float on water? What if ice isn't solid?

It's a non-question. Faith brings works because that's what an attitude of trust does - it operates according to its own nature.

>Logically, the person who shows no evidence of works must then not be Saved.<

Only the Master can judge who will be saved.

>what works must be done?<

Gal 5:6 "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 20, 2004.

It is believed that faith brings works. My question is. What if it doesn't?

What if corn oil doesn't float on water?

For example, the Dead Sea??

What if ice isn't solid?

Relative to say, like liquid nitrogen?

It's a non-question. Faith brings works because that's what an attitude of trust does - it operates according to its own nature.

Like when St. Peter denied Christ??

Logically, the person who shows no evidence of works must then not be Saved.

Only the Master can judge who will be saved.

That has always been my point.

what works must be done?

Gal 5:6 "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

Love? Is love not a work? I should say that love is experienced also through the deeds one does.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 20, 2004.

Things generally float when they should sink. My reference to the Dead Sea was to give an example of seemlingly contradictions to nature. The corn oil should float, but a human does not when it should; that's the contradiction that really isn't once we make a full understanding of the nature.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 20, 2004.

>What if corn oil doesn't float on water?

For example, the Dead Sea??<

OK, for the sake of those who choose to miss the point...

What if virgin olive oil doesn't float in a glass of regular tap water drawn from a faucet in Deadwood, South Dakota?

Seriously... consider the point, not the lack of detail in the analogy.

>What if ice isn't solid?

Relative to say, like liquid nitrogen?<

For those who miss the point...

What if ice (H2O) isn't solid?

Maybe you're jut trying to be humorous. I dunno.

>It's a non-question. Faith brings works because that's what an attitude of trust does - it operates according to its own nature.

Like when St. Peter denied Christ??<

Peter stumbled in his faith (not having been baptized with the Holy Spirit yet) but notice that his faith took him straight to repentence after he fell.

>Only the Master can judge who will be saved.

That has always been my point.<

Good point.

what works must be done?

Gal 5:6 "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

>Love? Is love not a work? I should say that love is experienced also through the deeds one does.<

Yes, love is something that is given. However, without faith there is no true love - just a mechanical empty giving that may appear good to an outward observer, but is a stench to God.

Love follows faith and is empowered by faith. Faith comes first.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

"OK, for the sake of those who choose to miss the point... "

LOL! Heh, rod chooses to miss points rather oftenly ;-)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

>Things generally float when they should sink.<

What? This sentence makes no sense. Maybe I'm dense. Or maybe you mean, "Things generally float when it seems like they should sink at first glance."

>My reference to the Dead Sea was to give an example of seemlingly contradictions to nature.<

Yes, but you totally missed the point being made and went off on a tangent. ;)

>The corn oil should float, but a human does not when it should;<

Floating was not the point of the analogy. The analogy was to illutrate the nature and properties of something spiritual.

The nature of faith is to produce fruit. Period. There's no maybe it produces fruit and maybe it doesn't produce fruit. Law of non- contradiction.

If a person's faith is not producing fruit, they're playing make- believe and need to find genuine faith or they'll be condemned.

Only God knows whether another person is producing true fruit. But, we know ourselves and can judge ourselves on the matter.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Luke 6 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Max, I didn't miss any of your points. I think that you have failed to hear my points. My point is that works are being used as a gauge for measuring one's faith. So, if a person fails to exhibit works--by your description--he then must not have faith.

Here is an "analogy":

What if a person doesn't sho works?

For one to follow a doctrine that minimalizes works out of the Salvation equation, one does make works rather critical, yes?

Yes, David, I am the bumbling idiot around here. Can I change my unsername to "B.I."?

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Floating was not the point of the analogy. The analogy was to illutrate the nature and properties of something spiritual.

"Floating" represents works. Some people do not show works while others do proper works. Float or sink.

The nature of faith is to produce fruit. Period. There's no maybe it produces fruit and maybe it doesn't produce fruit. Law of non- contradiction.

That is not a truth. You are making your own law. You need to factor in "Faith Only" doctrines that completely reject works. They have faith, but do not have works. They have no fruit. For them, works is a bad thing that leads to boasting, etc.

If a person's faith is not producing fruit, they're playing make- believe and need to find genuine faith or they'll be condemned.

Earlier, you said, "The nature of faith is to produce fruit. Period." I think you have failed to see the point. Your comment contradicts your law. But now, you have introduced another point. One's faith can be false if the works are not present or in error. Again, works are a measure of one's faith. Faith is the measure of one's Salvation. Get my point?

Only God knows whether another person is producing true fruit. But, we know ourselves and can judge ourselves on the matter.

I have said that many times with different words. I reject the idea of people believing that they are "saved". I embrace the idea that we have the hope and continual offer of Salvation when we accept Christ as OUR Saviour. God knows whether another person is producing true works. Once again, works seem to indicate that faith and works go hand in hand.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

If only God knows, then how can we also know about ourselves? You know that your "fruit" is true? How?

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Max

After reading our posts, would it be safe to say that "Faith Alone" may not be the best choice?

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Max

I believe you have made your point clear.

If one is not producing "fruit" (works), than one is in a "make-believe faith". So, it would be fair to say that "fruit" (works) do reveal one's faith. So, faith and works are needed.

What I find interesting is the idead that faith alone will determine the works because of the nature of faith. In other words, a man will suddenly know what works to do. Intuition? I hope not. Is there a list of works? Sure. But, which works are needed and says who? Man or God? Definately God.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

"Yes, love is something that is given. However, without faith there is no true love - just a mechanical empty giving that may appear good to an outward observer, but is a stench to God. "

That sounds rather Calvinistic, Max. Love is God. An atheist can show love, but have no faith. But, it is that love that may play an important role in bringing the atheist to God. How is that for a Calvinistic flavored approach? How can love be a stench to God? Love is pure without the stain of sin or evil. Perhaps love is also faith?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

and God is love.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Works (like love) can bring a man to faith in God.

...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

"only God knows whether a person is producing true fruit."

By this I meant that some appear to produce good fruit, but only God knows for sure.

>For one to follow a doctrine that minimalizes works out of the Salvation equation, one does make works rather critical, yes?<

I'm not sure I even understand this sentence... sorry.

Minimalizing works out of the salvation equation? I think putting works in their proper order is what I attempt to do.

I totally reject the idea that our good fruits help persuade God to forgive our sins. Rather, Our good fruits come as a result of knowing God's forgiveness, not in order to attain God's forgiveness.

This is what I mean by keeping works in their proper order. I don't minimalize works out of the slavation equation, I totally reject works as being part of the salvation equation.

If you are justified through faith in the cross, you cannot be hindered from entering heaven.

>That is not a truth. You are making your own law. You need to factor in "Faith Only" doctrines that completely reject works. They have faith, but do not have works. They have no fruit. For them, works is a bad thing that leads to boasting, etc.<

Like Kevin on this board, you totally misunderstand "Faith Alone" justification. Faith alone does not mean we reject works altogether in our lives. Faith alone means we do not place works into the equation for salvation. When you know that you have been delivered from hellfire through simple faith in the blood of God's Son, you do not neglect good works. On the contrary, you tremble under the grace of Christ, knowing that He delivered you from such a horrible fate. Your gratitude and attitude of love towards God urge you to do good works out of the goodwill that now resides in your heart. The works you do now are not in order to purchase salvation, but are to magnify and glorify God as your Savior, the One Who graciously delivered you from the punishment you deserved.

Only faith can accept the merits of the cross. Works are a fruit born out of gratitude for God's deliverance, not done in order to purchase God's deliverance. God's deliverance was purchased with the Blood of His Son, not our works.

>One's faith can be false if the works are not present or in error. Again, works are a measure of one's faith. Faith is the measure of one's Salvation. Get my point?<

A false faith is no faith. Only TRUE faith can justify a man, not works. And TRUE faith (trusting attitude) is known by God before even one fruit is produced. God knows the heart.

>I reject the idea of people believing that they are "saved".<

Then you reject Scripture.

>I embrace the idea that we have the hope and continual offer of Salvation when we accept Christ as OUR Saviour. God knows whether another person is producing true works. Once again, works seem to indicate that faith and works go hand in hand.<

No, faith alone justifies. Good works are the natural result of a grateful heart that trembles under the grace of Christ Who has laid upon the soul of one who has passed from death to life Eternal Life and a CERTAIN PROMISE of salvation.

There is definitely a difference between a person who is not sure of their salvation and who is tring their best to avoid hell and a person who knows hell has been avoided because of what Jesus did for him.

Who lives a life of more gratitude? The person who is given eternal life for free - as a gift. Or, the person who thinks he has to buy the gift with his good works? Obviously, the person who receives freely will be more grateful than the person who thinks his works earn him salvation.

The one who thinks his works earn him salvation will think of heaven as like a paycheck that is owed. The other will think of heaven as a gift - totally undeserved.

Which promotes a more thankful heart? The one who thinks he's owed heaven? Or the one who knows he's unworthy of heaven?

>If only God knows, then how can we also know about ourselves? You know that your "fruit" is true? How?<

When I said, "only God knows" I was speaking in reference to other people. You cannot know for absolute certain that another person has true faith. You must trust that their works are evidence of true faith, but you do not know for absolute certain as God knows. But, you can know if your works are of a true heart of love or of a heart that is trying to buy God's grace.

>After reading our posts, would it be safe to say that "Faith Alone" may not be the best choice?<

As I said, you do not understand what "Faith Alone" means, unless what I've written above has suddenly enlightened you.

>If one is not producing "fruit" (works), than one is in a "make- believe faith". So, it would be fair to say that "fruit" (works) do reveal one's faith. So, faith and works are needed.<

Needed for what? Works are not needed for justification. At all. Works are needed in order to express the love of God that resides in your new heart by the power of the Holy Spirit.

>What I find interesting is the idea that faith alone will determine the works because of the nature of faith. In other words, a man will suddenly know what works to do. Intuition? I hope not. <

Love is the natural fruit of the Holy Spirit Who lives in and through the person who has faith. Love does not need a list of do's and dont's in order to know what to do in any given situation. Love is empowered by the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit. You do not need to know one verse of scripture or God's Law to know how to express love to a neighbor. Yes, it is inuition to those who have the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Love is simple. Even a child can express the love of Christ.

>Is there a list of works? Sure. But, which works are needed and says who? Man or God? Definately God.<

A list of works? Needed for what? Where?

>"Yes, love is something that is given. However, without faith there is no true love - just a mechanical empty giving that may appear good to an outward observer, but is a stench to God. " That sounds rather Calvinistic, Max. Love is God. An atheist can show love, but have no faith.

An athiest's "love" is not given out of a right attitude towards God, which makes the "love" the athiest shows devoid of God's favor in regards to the athiest's standing with God.

I don't care if something I say sounds Calvinistic or not as long as it's true.

>But, it is that love that may play an important role in bringing the atheist to God. <

An athiest who has no right attitude towards God will only find the love of God in the cross of Christ, not his own works.

>How is that for a Calvinistic flavored approach? <

I have no idea what you mean.

>How can love be a stench to God? Love is pure without the stain of sin or evil.<

There are different sorts of love. What if an athiest did a very kind thing for aneedy child, but the athiest was doing it in order to show how much better he is than any so-called God? My point is, a "love" without faith, without the proper motive, is an empty thing that does not please God.

>Perhaps love is also faith?<

No, Christian love is not faith.

FAITH is confidence or trust in God... an attitude of the heart. LOVE is caring sincerely for a person and showing it with action.

Love without faith is not God-pleasing. Faith without love does not exist.

The fact remains: We are justified from sin by FAITH alone.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

Then, Max, you are Saved. But, you still have not answered one point. God knows who is fruitful, yes. How do you know that you are fruitful? It is only by intuition that you know. There is no list, according to you, of what is fruitful.

My faith has lead me to a different undersatnding than yours. By your definition, I too am to assume that I am saved--it is my intuition to believe that. It is also my intuition to believe that I must do works. Enlightenment? No, more connecting of the dots.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 25, 2004.

Max says, "The fact remains: We are justified from sin by FAITH alone," inspite of the fact that scripture clearly says otherwise. You are preaching a different gospel Max. James says "You are NOT saved by faith alone."

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 25, 2004.

Gail, please visit the threads I made for you. And James 2 is speaking of a different kind of faith, if you want to yank that verse out of context go ahead, but in context it actually agrees with our position.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 25, 2004.

>How do you know that you are fruitful? It is only by intuition that you know. There is no list, according to you, of what is fruitful.<

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

This is a list, if you need a list. But, if the Spirit is alive in you, He produces these fruits whether you know the list or not. In other words, the Spirit doesn't need a list. His very nature produces good fruit. And, if the Spirit is in you, these fruits will be present.

>My faith has lead me to a different undersatnding than yours. By your definition, I too am to assume that I am saved--it is my intuition to believe that. It is also my intuition to believe that I must do works. Enlightenment? No, more connecting of the dots.<

I have no clue what you just said here. Sorry. I could guess, but that'd be wasting time. You need to try and write more clearly if you want your point to get across.

>Max says, "The fact remains: We are justified from sin by FAITH alone," inspite of the fact that scripture clearly says otherwise.<

Scripture says MANY places that we are justified by faith (Paul.) But, in ONE place it says we are not justified by faith - we have to add works to the equation. (James)

I know most here take all the letters and books of the Bible (which the Church put together) as an absolute guide, but I think the book of James needs to be considered carefully, especially since James was of the circumcision group at one point. He was prone to error just as Peter was.

Remember when Paul had to correct Peter?

It should also be noted that James was sent to the Jews, not the Gentiles... so if you want to get technical, according to Gal 2:9, unless your a Jew, the epistle of James is not even meant for you.

Galatians 2:12 - "Before certain men came from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group."

Why did St. Peter start acting like such a hypocrite? Because he was afraid of what the guys who hung out with James would say. In other words, the guys who hung out with James were not fully informed about living out the truth of the gospel. Peter was not fully informed about living out the gospel. He was afraid of what James' friends would say if he hung out and ate with non-Jews.

I'll repeat that: Peter was afraid of what James' friends would say if he hung out and ate with non-Jews.

What does that tell you about James' opinions? Think about it.

Paul obviously infers here that James and his friends are the source of a mistaken view of the gospel and that Peter was paying more mind to James' opinions than the purity of the Truth. Paul had to correct Peter and tell him to repent.

We can conclude here that, James may have been an Apostle, but we must consider Paul before we pay mind to James. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. James was sent to the Jews. If James and Paul seem to disagree somewhere, we must go with Paul's opinion.

Reading Galatians, Paul makes it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR WITHOUT A SINGLE BIT OF DOUBT that faith is the only thing that justifies us in God's eyes. Paul in no way states that we are justified by faith plus works in his epistles.

Galatians 2:16 "know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. "

What justifies us according to the blessed Apostle Paul? ________

>You are preaching a different gospel Max. James says "You are NOT saved by faith alone." <

You can base your whole life on one verse of an Apostle who was sent to the Jews - who was prone to cause other Christians to live in hypocrisy (St. Peter) but, I'll heed the MANY LETTERS written by the Apostle Paul to the Gentiles.

Beyond the letters, the Spirit of God within those who are more mature in the gospel says we are not justified by the imperfect physical things we do with our mortal and sinful bodies. We are justified by a right heart attitude toward Jesus. If we have the right attitude, the right fruit will follow.

But, don't get confused. The right fruit cannot justify us. It only testifies that the right attitude is present - that the Spirit of Christ is present.

It's this right attitude which justifies. If you do not have it, you are not justified. If you begin relying on your own actions instead of Christ's actions, you instantly muddle the purity of the gospel.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Since I've been justified for free (not based on a single action of my own) then I feel compelled by love to do something to show my gratitude towards Christ, since He's the one who paid the full price by His perfect life and death.

So, my life is lived in a liberated sense of gratitude to my Redeemer... a sense of love.

I refuse to live under the spirit that says, "If you're not grateful, I'll send you straight to hell." If that were the case, then my actions would not be out of love, but out of fear.

Fear of hell only makes a person hate God, not love God. And if your works are done while despising God in your heart, instead of because of free love, your works are just a stink to God.

God wants free lovers... liberated from the fear of hell through faith in His Son.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Here is a very interesting remark:

"It's this right attitude which justifies. If you do not have it, you are not justified. If you begin relying on your own actions instead of Christ's actions, you instantly muddle the purity of the gospel. "

So, what actions must a person take in order to get into that attitude in order to become justified?

(And please answer in simple terms so that my weak mind can comprehend.)

.......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Once inside this attitude, what role does Hell have?

Does Hell change or remain the same as a punishment for those who are not in the "right" attitude?

(Daivd. It really is me posting. These two post seem like a "car wreck".)

.......................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Max, where in the N.T. does it say we are saved by faith alone? You keep saying that the Bible says that, but WHERE?

Then you said, "It should also be noted that James was sent to the Jews, not the Gentiles... so if you want to get technical, according to Gal 2:9, unless your a Jew, the epistle of James is not even meant for you."

What books of the N.T. should we then, as Gentiles, apply to ourselves?

And since Jesus only spoke to Jews, does that leave out the gospels as well?

David, I have just about HAD IT with you accusing me of taking things out of context:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16: and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE. 18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19: thou believest that there is one God; thou does well; the devils also believe and tremble. 20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? 21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22: SEEST THOU HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? 23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the Friend of God. 24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO?

Jesus says the sheep and goats are separated by what THEY DID AND DID NOT DO! And on and on I could go. Belief and obedience are BOTH REQUIREMENTS FOR SALVATION! If you say you are saved by belief or faith alone, all I can say is "the devils also believe and tremble."

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 29, 2004.

Gail,

"Belief and obedience are BOTH REQUIREMENTS FOR SALVATION!"

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (KJV)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 29, 2004.

Gail,

You can keep posting that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

It still does not mean what you think it means. James is talking about the evidence of salvation. God doesn't need evidence. Abraham was justified by faith, and yes it was by faith only.

"If you say you are saved by belief or faith alone, all I can say is "the devils also believe and tremble."

And all I can say is you do not even understand that verse, nor our position. Maybe it's just your hatred towards Protestants that is getting in the way. You hold double standards and accuse us of misrepresenting Romanism and yet you won't even learn our position yourself.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 29, 2004.

David, I don't hate Protestants or PROTESTANTISM!!!! Your method of salvation by faith alone MUST discount MANY, MANY scriptures!

When a person first gives their life to Christ, they must ACT. They must RESPOND. They must RECEIVE THE GRACE OF GOD given through Christ Jesus. Then throughout their lives, they MUST CONTINUALLY RESPOND TO GOD'S CALL, OBEYING their Lord.

Would you please be so kind as to tell me how I am taking James out of context?

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 29, 2004.

Faith does not exist WITHOUT evidence, David, that's the whole point. That is the point of James! It is proven faith that saves, not a simple "said" faith.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 29, 2004.

>Max, where in the N.T. does it say we are saved by faith alone? You keep saying that the Bible says that, but WHERE?<

If you can credit your own works for your salvation, you're a self-righteous person, not a Christ-righteous person. The only way to be Christ-righteous (justified) is through faith in His blood - and you can't work for Christ's blood, as if working somehow made it more effective. It's fully effective by faith. Works don't make the blood more effective, period.

Therefore, saying "faith alone" is proper, just as using the word Trinity is proper. It distinguishes proper doctrine from mistaken doctrine. There's a true difference between those who think their works justify and those who recognize that only Christ's blood can justify - that expressing love in your life does not make Christ's blood more effective in the saving of your soul. It might help save others' souls through a good testimony, but it doesn't add to your salvation.

Working comes from an attitude of gratefulness for that free Promise from God. Do you have God's Promise? How did you get it? Did you buy it somehow or receive it by faith? There's only two ways to go.

"The Promise comes by faith."

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), March 04, 2005.

hey, welcome back Max.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 04, 2005.

Max wrote, "If you can credit your own works for your salvation, you're a self-righteous person, not a Christ-righteous person."

Who said anything about crediting our "own" works for salvation???

Max wrote, "The only way to be Christ-righteous (justified) is through faith in His blood - and you can't work for Christ's blood, as if working somehow made it more effective."

Actually, the only way one can be "justified" is by obedience to Jesus and obeying the gospel of Christ... (See Heb 5:9).

Max wrote, "It's fully effective by faith. Works don't make the blood more effective, period."

Faith is null and void without works... (See James 2:17-18).

Max wrote, "Therefore, saying "faith alone" is proper, just as using the word Trinity is proper. It distinguishes proper doctrine from mistaken doctrine. There's a true difference between those who think their works justify and those who recognize that only Christ's blood can justify - that expressing love in your life does not make Christ's blood more effective in the saving of your soul. It might help save others' souls through a good testimony, but it doesn't add to your salvation."

It is not "our works" that save us... It is our obedience to the commandments that God has ordained that we obey... (See Jn 14:15). Faith "alone" never saved anyone...

Max wrote, "Working comes from an attitude of gratefulness for that free Promise from God. Do you have God's Promise? How did you get it? Did you buy it somehow or receive it by faith? There's only two ways to go."

One cannot have faith without works... There is no such thing hence, faith "alone" salvation is dead...

Max wrote, "The Promise comes by faith."

Yes, but not by faith "alone" which is what these "advocates" of this false doctrine wish to "add" to God's word...

When the Jews on the day of Pentecost who obviously had faith that they were guilty of killing their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (the Messiah) they asked in Acts 2:37, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Did Peter respond, "There is nothing you can do, you are saved by faith "alone" since it is obvious that you have already believed." We all know that Peter didn't give the Jews any such nonsense as those who claim faith "alone" salvation are giving today... Peter actually told them they had to "do" something in order to have their sins "washed away"... In Acts 2:38, we learn that Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" and those who obeyed the voice of Peter were baptized for this is exactly what verse 41 states, "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 04, 2005.

Well, I dunno, Kevin, I mean, the devils have "faith alone" don't they? Ah, never mind . . . . bad example!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 04, 2005.

Of course faith is noty alone--it is accompanied by works. But the works are the response to salvation--the deliverance from sin and its penalty. Good works are the fruit of the spirit--which isn't in us until we believe. Faith comes first and is the reason for the works. We don't receive the Spirit and become saved because of anything we do.

It's so clear....

Great post Max!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.

That is really just splitting the "proverbial" hair Faith. You're saying that we're saved by "faith alone" but then you go on to say there MUST be works, and even though you're not saved by works you must have them. So what's the difference between that and saved by "grace, working through faith and charity" Very dang little difference! APPLES and ORANGES! You say tomato, I say tomata! The truth is you MUST have faith, and you better have WORKS to show for it.

The doctrine of "faith alone" did not come along until Luther, who of course "penned the phrase" and actually had it inserted into his very own German translation of the Bible; i.e., he interjected the word "alone" after "faith" which was not in the original language. In order to truly understand what EXACTLY is meant by "faith alone" you must read his writings. Personally, Faith, I don't think you would subscribe to his theology at all in this manner.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 04, 2005.

Gail--

You miss the point completely.

The works are a result of the faith that saves us. If we don't see this fruit--then there is a good chance the faith isn't true.

A Christian can have no good works under his name, though, and still be saved because he is saved by Christ's blood--by Christ's work. Just as the verse in 1 Corinthians shows--even a Christian with no good deeds surviving the test--is still saved.

It's not about what we do--it is about what God does.

I found a great Psalm that speasks to this:

Psalm 51

1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love;

according to your great compassion

blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash away all my iniquity

and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions,

and my sin is always before me.

4 Against you, you only, have I sinned

and done what is evil in your sight,

so that you are proved right when you speak

and justified when you judge.

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,

sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts;

you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.

7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;

wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

8 Let me hear joy and gladness;

let the bones you have crushed rejoice.

9 Hide your face from my sins

and blot out all my iniquity.

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,

and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11 Do not cast me from your presence

or take your Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation

and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,

and sinners will turn back to you.

14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God,

the God who saves me,

and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.

15 O Lord, open my lips,

and my mouth will declare your praise.

16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;

you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;

a broken and contrite heart,

O God, you will not despise.

18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper;

build up the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices,

whole burnt offerings to delight you;

then bulls will be offered on your altar.

God saves us--we don't save ourselves and no amount of good deeds will save anyone if they don't first have the faith. His faith.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.

Yes, I am quite familiar with Psalm 51 written by King David after his affair with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband, Uriah. It is a song especially sung during Lent. I like the version written by Keith Green best.

****

"The works are a result of the faith that saves us. If we don't see this fruit--then there is a good chance the faith isn't true."

Exactly.

But then you said this which is a direct contradiction of what you just said above: "A Christian can have no good works under his name, though, and still be saved because he is saved by Christ's blood--by Christ's work. Just as the verse in 1 Corinthians shows--even a Christian with no good deeds surviving the test--is still saved."

ANSWER: It is impossible to be in relationship with Christ and have no good works. ABSOLULELY, UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE! A branch that is connected to the vine must produce good fruit by virtue of the simple fact that it is connected to the life source. To say that a "Christian" can be connected to the branch, or can be in union with Christ, and not produce fruit is an oxymoran.

John 15 makes it crystal clear, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Then you said "It's not about what we do--it is about what God does," YES -- THROUGH US! And He GETS THE GLORY when he inspires people to do great things, like start orphanages, feed the poor, aide the sick, doing justice for the oppressed. The testimony of Christ to the world are these things!

If we do not allow God to work through us then we are fit for the furnace PER JOHN 15.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 05, 2005.

I guess it boils down to what we think is meant by good works, Gail. The verse in 1 Corinthians clearly says that even though the works of some Christians will burn up--they will still be saved.

So maybe the contradiction isn't in my understanding, but yours.

Maybe the most important work, or fruit of the spirit is a heart issue? Love?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 05, 2005.

Yes, and that fruit -- love -- the heart issue, will pass through the fire spoken of in 1 Cor. 3:15.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 05, 2005.

Faith "alone" advocates are always "inconsistent" when they cry "faith alone" and then come back and say, "Of course faith is noty alone--it is accompanied by works."

This is typical of those who refuse to acknowledge the truth of God's word... James 2:20 says, "faith without works is dead" and yet these "faith alone" advocates claim just the opposite... If one has faith without works, then they have no faith at all... Since this is the case, faith cannot be without works hence "faith alone" salvation is as the writer put it, "dead"...

There is no proof of the nonsense these "faith alone" advocates teach such as, "But the works are the response to salvation--the deliverance from sin and its penalty."

One cannot be saved by "faith alone" because before faith, one must "hear" the gospel for that is what produces "faith"... Hearing the gospel is a "work" that someone must do prior to one having "faith" for it is the word of God that produces faith. (Romans 10:17, James 1:21). One is not saved merely by "hearing" the word that produces faith for it is written in James 1:22 that one must, "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving ourselves."

One is still not saved once they have heard the word, that is the gospel of Christ and one is also not saved once they believe or have faith in the gospel of Christ... Actually, one must after they have heard the word, and believed it, they must repent of their sins (just as Peter told the Jews in Acts 2:38), they must confess that Jesus is Lord (just like the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:37), then they must be baptized for the remission of their sins, (just like Peter told the Jews also in Acts 2:38), then and only then are one's sins washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ...

To claim that one must be "saved" in order to do good "works" is not what the Bible teaches...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 05, 2005.

But Gail--it's not a real fire--just an analogy meaning "testing"...and it is the "works" which will be tested, not us--because we are saved no matter what the result of the testing reveals--yet the works are "burned-up".., disregarded, destroyed. It basically means that they were of no value--they didn't do well, so they are rejected and we receive no reward for those said works. We may also have many works that did well and came through the fire/testing to be revealed as thoroughly effective. Then we receive rewards for those. The Bible does not elaborate on what these rewards might be, however. Maybe there are different levels of position and authority and responsibility in heaven and we receive according to our abilities and acheivements in this life. I don't know for sure-- the Bible doesn't say.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 06, 2005.

My point is that our hearts will be laid bare before the Almighty. Fire is used metaphoricially to describe the action of cleansing or purifying throughout scripture, and St. Paul uses fire in the same manner. Our works are not only what we do EXTERNALLY, but what we are INTERNALLY . . . authentic sanctification, real transformation does produce lasting fruit!

Actually, scripture does have some things to say about rewards in heaven, and although I do not have time to look them up, position and authority certainly are amongst the rewards. In one instance, St. Paul chastises the Corinithians and says "What! Don't you know we will judge angels." (My paraphrase). The word "judge" in the original language means "to rule". And there are quite a few other scriptures, some in the O.T. as well.

Then there are several parables, one in particular concerning the talents that gives at least an indication "reward" to the good steward.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 06, 2005.

"Actually, scripture does have some things to say about rewards in heaven, and although I do not have time to look them up, position and authority certainly are amongst the rewards." - Gail

I believe one passage that speaks of this is found in Corinthians. It's a passage members of the RC denomination use to defend purgatory. I don't have time to look it up though.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.

Ohh, I see it's been mentioned already...Sorry, I don't have enough time to read these things anymore. And the computers at our Recreational Center blocked this board. Probably because of the "playboy threads", I'll be deleting soon.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.

Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Thank you David--someone needs to do some moderating around here : )

Hope you are doing great!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.