http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm

Cached version

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2004

Answers

[A excerpt from a discussion board; Conversing with a Catholic]

Linking to Joe Gallegos' web site doesn't answer what I asked you. Citing fathers who believed in some sort of sinlessness of Mary or a unique role that she had doesn't prove that they considered her sinless from conception onward, much less that the church had always held and taught such a view of her. Some fathers will refer to Mary as sinless for a period of her life, but refer to her as a sinner elsewhere. Joe Gallegos includes Ephraim, Ambrose, and Augustine, yet all three of them only believed in a temporary sinlessness.

His citation of Hippolytus is irrelevant, since it says nothing of Mary being immaculately conceived or sinless in her behavior. Hippolytus is addressing Jesus as the ark, not Mary. He refers to Jesus being made of incorruptible wood, not Mary. It seems that Gallegos misread the passage.

He also misrepresents Origen, who is known to have considered Mary a sinner:

"Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon's prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)

Origen repeatedly denies that Mary was sinless:

"While if by those 'who were without sin' he means such as have never at any time sinned,-for he made no distinction in his statement,-we reply that it is impossible for a man thus to be without sin. And this we say, excepting, of course, the man understood to be in Christ Jesus, who 'did no sin.'...God has not been able to prevent even in the case of a single individual, so that one man might be found from the very beginning of things who was born into the world untainted by sin...For in the connected series of statements which appears to apply as to one particular individual, the curse pronounced upon Adam is regarded as common to all (the members of the race), and what was spoken with reference to the woman is spoken of every woman without exception." (Against Celsus, 3:62, 4:40)

Thus, Joe Gallegos' first six citations are erroneous. It isn't until we get to the seventh citation, from the fifth century, that we begin to see something more credible. I don't know much about Proclus of Constantinople, so I can't comment on him.

Gallegos next cites Theodotus of Ancyra, but the Roman Catholic scholar Michael O'Carroll notes that Theodotus' position on the sinlessness of Mary is unclear (Theotokos [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, Inc., 1988], p. 339). While he does make the comment Gallegos quotes, O'Carroll explains that Theodotus also refers elsewhere to Mary being purified twice in her life, and he (O'Carroll) suggests that Theodotus may have been inconsistent on the issue.

Gallegos' citation of Peter Chrysologus is inconclusive. The passage refers to Mary being pledged to Christ in the womb, but such a comment doesn't inherently involve an immaculate conception followed by lifelong sinlessness.

The next citation, from the sixth century, is Jacob of Sarug. The quote, once again, doesn't refer to sinlessness from conception onward. It refers to Mary being holy and stainless as a virgin, but it doesn't specify the timespan for it. We know that some fathers believed in a temporary sinlessness, so the passage Gallegos has cited is inconclusive.

The quote from Theotoknos of Livias, in the seventh century, is also inconclusive. It refers to Mary's birth, not her conception, then goes on to say that she's of pure clay. That could be a reference to her being sinless from conception, but it could also be referring to her state at birth or beyond.

I don't know what position was held by the last three sources he cites, who are all from the eighth century. They may have believed that Mary was always sinless. I don't know.

In summary, most of Gallegos' citations are erroneous, misleading, or inconclusive. He gives no examples prior to the fifth century of a father who viewed Mary as sinless from conception onward. Yet, we know that Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Basil, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Hilary of Poitiers, Augustine, and other fathers referred to Mary as a sinner. So did some of the bishops of Rome. Even in later centuries, we still find Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Pope Innocent III, and others denying that she was sinless from conception. You still haven't explained why they would have done so if Mary's sinlessness from conception onward was a doctrine always held and taught by the church. You've also failed to prove that the doctrine was advocated by anybody in the earliest centuries. If nobody advocates it in the earliest centuries, and it's only held by some people while being denied by others in later centuries, why should we think that it was a doctrine always held and taught by the church?

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
www.ntrmin.org


-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 17, 2004.

I agree with those facts David presents.

There is no such thing as immaculate conception.

Even more, Mary was not even a virgin!!!

Even Jerome realized almah was at Isaiah 7:14, not Bethulah.

Matthew misquoted not only Isaiah but many other prophets to prove Jesus was the Christ. He was wrong!!

Isaiah 7:14 deals with Ahaz and his son Hezekiah. Hezekiah is Immnauel!!!

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 19, 2004.

"As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel's speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin's disobedience by a virgin' obedience" -- Irenaeus, 130AD

"Mary, you are the vessel and tabernacle containing all mysteries. You know what the Patriarchs never knew; you have experienced what was never revealed to the Angels; you have heard what the Prophets never heard. In a word, all that was hidden from preceding generations was made known to you; even more, most of these wonders depended on you" -- 270 AD, Saint Gregory Thaumaturgus

"For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it don to me according to thy word. And so by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him" -- Saint Justin

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), July 20, 2004.