Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Genesis 15:6,
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

Heb 4:2,
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 10:38,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

1 Pet 1:17-23,
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Pet 1:3-5,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Pet 2:6,
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Isa 53:10-11,
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Jn 1:12-13,
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jn 3:15,
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16,
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18,
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36,
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 5:24,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jn 6:27-29,
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jn 6:35,
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jn 6:40,
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44,
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:47,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life

Jn 7:38,
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jn 11:25-26,
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jn 12:36,
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Jn 12:46,
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jn 20:29,
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jn 20:31,
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Psalms 106:31,
And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

James 2:23,
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

1 Jn 3:23,
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Jn 5:1,
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:4,
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith

1 Jn 5:5,
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 Jn 5:10,
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 Jn 5:13,
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 1:13-14,
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 2:8-9,
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Eph 2:4-6,
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Acts 3:12-26,
And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 5:29-32,
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:43,
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 13:38-39,
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:9,
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:11,
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they

Acts 16:30-31,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 20:21,
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:18,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Gal 2:16,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21,
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:1-5,
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:6,
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:7-12,
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:14,
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22,
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:24,
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:26,
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29,
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Cor 1:21,
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

2 Thes 2:13,
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Tim 1:9,
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1 Tim 1:16,
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Phil 3:9,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 1:16-17,
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:24,
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:26,
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:28-30,
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:3,
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5,
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:11-12,
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:16,
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:25,
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1,
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9,
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 9:30,
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:33,
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:4,
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:9-10,
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 11:6,
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Luke 7:50,
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 17:19,
And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Luke 18:42,
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee

Luke 5:20,
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Mark 2:5,
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee

Mark 5:34,
And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Psalm 32:1-5,
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. 3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah..

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004

Answers

*bump*

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

I might have made a mistake in one of the references above...so Don't kill me about it! I may have mistyped something, so inform me about it and I'll fix it. I believe I have the largest list compiled, so no, I didn't just rip this off some website (there are claims of there being 150 that indeed say faith is enough, which I set out to prove; Those who claimed this a. don't have it anymore b. have passed away) I actually went through the bible collecting these. This doesn't include the whole Old Testament though.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

Psalm 143:1 Hear my prayer, O LORD, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness. / KJV

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

Hi David,

IMHO, your references show that faith is necessary, but not necessarily "enough." What about passages that talk about doing God's will and loving as Christ loved?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 27, 2004.

Andy,

Those verses are to help the believer. to give the believer assurance of his salvation and redemption. It's also called sanctification.

Here is a quote on sanctification and justification from William Ames (puritan):
5. just as in justification a believer is properly freed from the guilt of sin and has life given him (the title to which is, as it were, settled in adoption), so in sanctification the same believer is freed from the sordidness and stain of sin, and the purity of God's image is restored to him.

Another piece from Hodges outlines:
Sanctification involves more than a mere moral reformation of character, brought about by the power of the truth: it is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man (Rom. 6:13; 2 Cor. 4

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

David,

I don't think I'm not understanding what you mean by "enough." Do you mean to say that faith is enough to obtain eternal life with God or enough to be free from sin? If I understand justification and sanctification according to Hodges, then he is saying that faith justifies (frees from sin) and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (purifies).

He references Romans 6:13 and 2 Cor 4. It seems the message of Romans 6 and 2 Cor 4 can be summed up in Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Is Hodges saying that obedience to God in faith leads to sancitification and righteousness?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 27, 2004.

"Do you mean to say that faith is enough to obtain eternal life with God"

Yes, as some people believe faith + something else is what leads to eternal life. Yet scriptures prove otherwise. "Works" are the product of Faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

http://www.carm.org/questions/justification.htm

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

David,

There are also verses that show that action is required (eg. love, baptism, working out your salvation, etc). The reason faith was emphasized so much was to reverse the Jewish belief that works alone saved people. This was wrong too, so the Scriptures focused more on the essential element of faith to address the issue at hand at the time. If the Scriptures were written today to address the "faith alone" people, they would instead emphasize the essential element of works alongside grace and faith.

What about this passage:
Rom 2 (KJV)
6 [God] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

This one, taken by itself, says that works alone are necessary. Also, the parable of the sheep and the goats in Mt. 25. I can't simply ignore any one passage that doesn't suit my beliefs, and isolate the other ones that I agree with to prove my point. The whole of Scripture must be taken into account, especially on such an essential matter as salvation.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 27, 2004.

"There are also verses that show that action is required (eg. love, baptism, working out your salvation, etc)." - Emily

This falls under sanctification, not justification as justification is a one time act, sanctification is a process.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.

David,

What is the purpose of sanctification? Is sanctification necessary to obtain eternal life? You said that faith is all that is necessary for eternal life with God. Yet, the passages in the Bible that you said cover sanctification mention eternal life. How are these related in your theology?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 27, 2004.

None of these say Faith Alone. It's not in the Bible. It was invented in the sixteenth century. Anyone who believes salvation is by faith alone believes in a tradition of man and will be judged appropriately.

Why does Paul use "faith" 200 times, but NEVER couples it with "alone?" Couldn't he have put them together even once--which would be a mere 1/2 of 1% of the time? No, he doesn't even do that. If not, why not?

The long message of the first poster is evidence of the claim I made elsewhere on this board that Protestants simply quote from the Bible without bothering to explain why their quotes prove their point of view. You've got to look at the context; biblical study is hard. That is why in matters of doctrine, Our Lord gave us the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Because no matter how well- developed your interpretation, it is always fallible, simply because it was written by you, a human.

Salvation is by grace with which we cooperate by faith and works, as taught in Holy Scripture and solemnly defined by the Holy Ecumenical Council of Trent.

Laudetur Jesum Christum.

-- JC (euthyphro9999@yahoo.com), June 30, 2004.

"None of these say Faith Alone"

Right, because that would be redundant ;-)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

JC, further discussion is rather pointless with you. You obviously DO NOT know what our position is. Please learn it, or the moderator will have to start limiting your posts.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

Here is a link you might find useful.

http://www.opc.org/documents/standards.html

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

David,

I agree that sanctification is a process, but the Bible verses that speak about what I understand you to mean as sanctification also say it is necessary for eternal life. How does this fit with your faith alone or "faith is enough" doctrine?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 30, 2004.

Actually there is one passage in the Bible which does comment on "faith alone" (or "faith only", depending upon your translation) - James 2:24. Other than that, the idea is not mentioned anywhere.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 04, 2004.

James... wasn't he the guy who influenced Peter to play a hypocrite?

YOU MUST CONSIDER THIS:

If James was combatting the "faith alone" point of view, then it must have been a view held very early on by Christians.

I'll say it one more time so it might sink in...

If James was trying to prove that "faith" does not justify, then he must have been writing his epistle to counter that view. It must have existed before he could write to try and combat it.

It must have been an early Christian view... and it was. Paul preached it clearly in his epistles.

The reason James combats the "faith alone" view is because he probably saw some Christians claiming to believe, but had no works of love.

He probably saw some rich dude "convert" to Christianity, claim to be saved by "faith alone" according to Paul's teaching, but he had no love for the poor that would have backed (justified) his claim.

So, James wrote a letter saying that "faith alone" does not justify. This is true, but ONLY if you understand it properly in view of Paul's clear teachings.

If you are rich and claim to be a Christian and you see a person in need of food, but you do nothing, it's impossible that you have true faith. Your faith is dead... in other words, you're a make-believer, not a believer.

Anyway, James hung around the circumcision group and caused Peter to play the hypocrite when James' buddies came to visit. Peter pretended that non-Jews were not good enough, that "faith alone" was not good enough. If James' buddies held this view and caused Peter to fall into hypocrisy, then we must take note and consider James' writing according to the Spirit of God.

Read Paul's epistle to the Galatians for His opinion about James and James' friends. If you want to get technical, the book of James was meant for Jews only, since James was sent to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles...

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Basically, James didn't understand the concept of "faith alone" - just like many today.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

I don't know Max, its been many years and many translations since James wrote. (Same goes for Paul) I personally wouldn't feel comfortable writing James off as simply "not understanding." There are many who feel that James was closer to Jesus than Paul. We all know that Paul never met Jesus during Jesus' life. If James was speaking to his fellow Jews, does it make his words less valid than Paul's simply because Paul was speaking to gentiles? I agree there is a misunderstanding going on, but am just not so sure we can lay it at James' feet.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 29, 2004.

>I don't know Max, its been many years and many translations since James wrote. <

Many translations? No. Most scholars agree it's quite accurate and the manuscripts are quite reliable.

>(Same goes for Paul)<

Nope. You must have heard this on the street, not from scholars.

>I personally wouldn't feel comfortable writing James off as simply "not understanding."<

If Peter had a season in his life where he "didn't understand clearly" and Paul had to correct him, and James' friends were at the root of Peter's hypocrisy, then we have to question James' epistle... I'm not saying write it off completely... just question it in light of Paul's writings.

>There are many who feel that James was closer to Jesus than Paul.<

And Peter was closer than any except John, but Peter fell into hypocrisy and had to be corrected by Paul... and James was part of the reason Peter was being a hypocrite.

>We all know that Paul never met Jesus during Jesus' life. <

Paul met Jesus after the resurrection and ascension. Of course he knew him during His life, just not during his earthly life when the mystery of the gospel was being revealed.

>If James was speaking to his fellow Jews, does it make his words less valid than Paul's simply because Paul was speaking to gentiles?<

No, but some things regarding the Law are of no relevance to a Gentile - only Jews.

>I agree there is a misunderstanding going on, but am just not so sure we can lay it at James' feet.<

I'm very sure that James did not understand the concept of faith as Paul understood it. Personally, I trust Paul more than James since Paul was the one with the revelation first and had to correct Peter.

James' epistle is good, but only when properly understood and interpreted. James is telling those who claim to have faith that they'd better produce fruit in keeping with repentance... that is, if you truly believe, you'd better show it or stop fake-claiming to have faith. To say that faith alone does not justify is taking it too far and misunderstanding the primary place faith has.

For awhile, until the council at Jerusalem, James was a follower of the circumcision group that required Gentiles to get circumcised in order to join the community of Christ. After the council, his understanding aboutt he subject changed. James probably wrote this epistle before the council, before he came to a clearer understanding of the relationship between faith and works in regards to justification.

If James needed a clearer understanding at one point, it's obvious he did not understand before and knows he was partly in error... which is how I account for this contrary epistle.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

I think scholars do have some questions about the many translations and copies and copies of copies of scripture that have come down to us over millenium. But I guess that is not relevent to this here.

But it is certainly likely that Paul would present his side of the story (and I know I'll get in trouble for this) in the best possible light to support his views.

There are some who believe that James wrote his epistle to refute Paul, perhaps even to correct him or those influenced by him. There was a rift between the early Jeruselem church and Paul. Here we are two thousand years later continuing to battle it out over a teaching that seems (depending who reads it) to have never been completely settled. Why not respect the wisdom found in both approaches?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 30, 2004.

>I think scholars do have some questions about the many translations and copies and copies of copies of scripture that have come down to us over millenium. <

The majority agree, based on overwhelming manuscript evidence, that the epistles are very reliable. The early church fathers quoted endlessly from the epistles, sealing the words in a source outside the Bible. The epistles were also distributed throughout the churches and held to be Divine Scripture - in other words, the Churches would copy each word faithfully - as a religious duty.

There's much more to say about the false idea that the New Testament is corrupted. Ignorant people (no offense) like to say these types of things about the Scriptures without truly investigating the facts.

>But it is certainly likely that Paul would present his side of the story (and I know I'll get in trouble for this) in the best possible light to support his views.<

There was no doubt a very heated debate about the issue. Read Acts 15. Peter finally accepted that the Gentiles were accepted by God because they believed in Jesus Christ, not because they followed the Law.

As for Paul painting it in the best light, there's really nothing you can paint here. Paul reported the facts. Peter withdrew from eating with non-Jews. Paul confronted Peter about this. There's no "best light" you can paint these facts in as you suppose.

>There are some who believe that James wrote his epistle to refute Paul, perhaps even to correct him or those influenced by him. There was a rift between the early Jeruselem church and Paul. Here we are two thousand years later continuing to battle it out over a teaching that seems (depending who reads it) to have never been completely settled. Why not respect the wisdom found in both approaches? <

Acts Chapter 15 and Galatians Chapter 2 settle the issue once and for all. There are those who have not been informed yet, who still require the followers of Jesus to do something to maintain grace, rather than simply believe in Christ.

Paul argues strongly that, if God granted you His grace when you believed, how is it that you think you can perfect His grace by your own works? as if the blood of Christ was not enough?

This does not mean we do not do good works, it simply means we do not do good works to maintain God's grace. God's grace comes to us through faith alone in Christ.

Galatians 3:2 "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."

In other words, Paul is saying: If God gave you the miracle of the new birth by the Spirit when you believed, making you His child, do you think by mere human effort you can hold onto the Spirit? Human effort didn't get you the Spirit, it surely isn't going to add anything to the Spirit.

Hmmm.... anyay, the debate existed but was settled in Jerusalem. James switched his position over to Paul's side. But, some modern Christians even reject that first council.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

Thanks Max,

Although I'm not absolutely convinced about the faith/works argument. You support your argument well and I understand the basis for your position. I also guess that we have to assume that James' epistle was written prior to Paul, and was not a response to Paul's view. Do we know the chronology?

Also do we know that James eventually accepted Paul's position, or do we assume it because Peter changed his position on table fellowship?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 30, 2004.

Paul and James were not contradicting each other....lol.

To assume this just makes God's Word a joke.

Paul and James both agreed that true faith was evidenced by works.

They each--speaking to didfferent peoples., came at that one same conclusion--from opposite ends.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 30, 2004.

Faith,

If you believe in conditional security, "you must obey to be saved", then it does contradict. The hermenutic applied by these folks can make the bible say whatever it wants. You can never stay in one passage for long. To many screwballs being thrown :)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2004.

Perhaps we should dispense with "lolling," Am I alone in finding it somewhat offensive when used in certain contexts? Maybe others do too, or perhaps thats the whole purpose.

I'm most likely being supersensitive.

That being said, I still think there is evidence that there was a disareement between James and Paul. This would be normal between humans, and am not suggesting that "the word of God is a joke." I think this is much more complicated, and that is one of the reasons none of us "today" can come to an agreement. They {back then) never really did either. Maybe that's the nature of being "human." Do we enjoy being at odds? Does the protection of our individuality spread out so much that we never come to agreement outside of our "group?" We "lol" at those who don't get it. I "lol" and have done so for years but truely think its better not to. I'm sure Jesus had a sense of humor but I don't think he "lolled" At least not the way we do.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), July 31, 2004.

I feel the same way, Jim, but you said it better. My words come out like harvest time at the jalepeņo farm.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 31, 2004.