A question for the board:

What does al-Qaida want and how does it affect Catholics?

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004

Answers

bump

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004.

Osama Bin Laden answered this question last year

here's the link: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

- but of course the Media hasn't trumpetted his letter to the four winds...I wonder why?

One reason of course is that he basically declares culture war on the ENTIRE West, making no distinction between Jews, Christians, and pagans.

He also lists his demands for our UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER:

- that we all convert to Islam (note to Catholics, this means repudiating the dogma of the Trinity and hence, the whole economy of salvation through Jesus Christ). - that we (meaning all Americans; business, tourists, students, etc) leave the world and go home - that we pay him (or the new mega-state he wants to found) much much more per barrel of oil (while not doing anything as he builds a superpower military machine). - that we allow the Muslims to annihilate the state of Israel.

So great are our sins (real and imagined) that He tells us that really, even if we did all this, he'd STILL have to kill a couple more thousand unarmed civilians, women and children, to satisfy the demands of "justice"...to "even the score".

Naturally, if more Americans knew the contents of this letter we'd feel more threatened by him and his ilk, while being more encouraged of our own moral (and mental) superiority and rightness of our cause...which would be BAD because it'd make the West stronger rather than weaker.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.

simply put, he wants to be in charge of a world where everyone is muslim and all infidels die.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 23, 2004.

Personal power, IMO. If they weren't killing for Islam, they'd be killing for sock choice.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 23, 2004.

He's just a ruthless man that only wants power. I really hope that we catch him soon. He is destroying his religion and killing people. Does he really think that Allah will grant him salvation? This is of course besides the fact they the extremists made up some theology to make it ok to do these things. The quotes that he uses from the Qur'an are either made up or misinterpreted. It's sad really.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004.

Frank, you hit the nail on the head. Murders like him claim to seek a higher cause, but at the end of the day they just have a pathological urge to murder.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004.

I don't know if he has a pathological urge to murder. I think that he just worships the idol of power, but "replaces it" with Allah. He thinks that he bows to the will of Allah but instead bows to the wishes of Satan or whatever the Muslims call him.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), June 24, 2004.

Frank, Scott, Anti, it's exactly what my late granddad said about nutjobs lik bin Laden. He and Sadaam Hussein are both Hitler- wannabes. We nailed one, but we haven't got the other one yet, unfortunately. We have the right idea in stopping monsers like them, but we're going about it the wrong way.

-- Garret Ford (Parallax281457689@Yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.

How should we "go about it"? We've got a $25 million bounty on his head, Interpol and every police agency in the world after him. We've got Pakistan, Afganistan, NATO, the USA's military all looking for him... what more shall we do?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.

Osama's Fatwa,
World Islamic Front Statement

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin- 'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah." This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'" We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson. Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things." Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 24, 2004.

In the above NOTICE,

''. . . people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people,''

It is Iraq which has incited al Qaeda to ''holy'' war against the west. We're passing naive if we do not realize the connection between Saddam and Osama. How much clearer can this fanatic say it?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 24, 2004.

Yes but Eugene don't you get it? Because OBL and Saddam didn't hold a press conference and produce business cards, the "is no connection darn it!" After all, we know the Germans and Japanese were allies...because they said so (but there were few official links).

Besides, linking the terrorists who hit us on 9/11 and Saddam would make the war in Iraq...well...legitimate and also mean that the "war on terror" is international, not isolated to Afganistan's border regions...and THAT would mean that what Bush has been saying all along would be...right, and of course we can't have that can we?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.

Osama's Fatwa,
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998

so it was all Clinton's fault? Just kidding, thanks for posting that.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 24, 2004.

We have a few wise guys here determined to fix something that isn't broken. Instead of a just war on terror, they love their candle-light vigils. You see them here, protesting the war and accusing us of sin. I suspect they sit at their keyboards; little face-paintings of butterflies and cloverleaves on them. A saintly bunch indeed. Giving aid and comfort to the enemies of our G.I.'s far way. And they don't like being contradicted

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 24, 2004.

Did You Know...? Some 9/11 Commission findings you may not be hearing about.

The Commission's Staff Statement No. 15 ("Overview of the Enemy"), states that one plot floated by the mujahedeen in Afghanistan involved taking over a launcher and forcing Russian scientists to fire a nuclear missile at the United States. Former presidential consultant and GeoStrategic Analysis President Peter Heussy says, "The commission's staff report gives major credence to the need for a ballistic missile defense system for the United States."

the commission's report states that while al Qaeda found recruits and "fertile" fundraising ground in Saudi Arabia, "No evidence exists that the Saudi government as an institution or senior officials within the Saudi government funded al Qaeda." In addition, Staff Statement No. 16 ("Outline of the 9/11 Plot") rebukes another popular rumor, "Specifically, there is no evidence" that the hijackers "received funding from Saudi citizens Omar al Bayoumi and Osama Bassnan, or that Saudi princess Haifa al Faisal provided any funds to the conspiracy either directly or indirectly

And more, read the article, or the report!

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@Hotmail.com), June 24, 2004.

Based on the above declaration, i can say that al-Qaida wants US out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Israelis out of Palestine.

سنی اسلام

-- Heave Ho (overseer@pyramidbuildersinc.org), June 30, 2004.

You need to understand bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

You need to understand Palestin e

includes all the lands now known as Israel.

-Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

What is the situation?

{a href="http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny- vphel303873825jun30,0,106877.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines}Let me see--{/a} / Is this the way?

Otherwise, here's the URL:
http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny- vphel303873825jun30,0,106877.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 30, 2004.

yes exactly, they want all of the non-Palestinian jews to go back to where they came from.

-- Heave Ho (overseer@pyramidbuildersinc.org), July 03, 2004.

"yes exactly, they want all of the non-Palestinian jews to go back to where they came from."

That's the white-washed version. I used to believe that Muslims wanted equitable justice. Then I studied history.

What happened to the Armenians in Turkey? Genocide.

The native Christians of the Levant? Killed, kicked off their land, or sent to the mountains.

Christians in Palestinian-controlled areas (Gaza, West Bank)? If the Muslims claim to be second-class citizens, Arab Christians are third- class.

In the Sudan? General Bashir's Arabization program for the south. Persecution and the beginnings of genocide on black Sudanese, starting with the Christians and other non-Muslims, and extending even to black Muslims who aren't strict enough (like Wahabis).

By its nature, Islam is, expansionist, to the exclusion of all others who stand in their way.

The only "equitable" solution that Islam will accept is all others to convert, die, or be subjugated by them.

Study every single civilization that has met up with Islam, and find what happens to non-Muslims when the Muslims get political and/or military control.

Then, get ready.

-- (umm@umm.com), July 03, 2004.

You're digressing, al-Qaeda clearly says that their purpose is to drive the US out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq and the non-palestinian jews from Palestine. It is either extreme arrogance or extreme ignorance on the part of the americans to portray themselves or Israelis as victims.

As for atrocities, I would recommend that you read THE INQUISITION: A Study in Absolute Catholic Power by Arthur Maricle. It's available on the internet.

-- Heave Ho (overseer@pyramidbuildersinc.org), July 06, 2004.

As for atrocities.... you'll find nothing in the annals of Catholic countries to compare with the Turkish genocide of the Christians my friend, no matter how you use the numbers. Also, elsewhere on these threads there are links to what the Crusades and Inquisitions (yes, plural, not just in Spain, but also Portugal, France, and Rome) were.

Case in point about your supposed big-bad absolute Catholic regimes: they weren't absolute, and they weren't worse than what other countries were doing at the time or after.

The Spanish Inquisition lasted about 300 years. They kept court records...about 100,000 of them. Only 2% were capital cases - most people tried by the Inquisition for heresy were found innocent and let go - including Sts John of the Cross and Therese of Avila! Given the option to be tried by the state in a civil court or by the Church by the Inquisition, most people opted for the Inquistion!

But you believe the enemy propaganda written by the Dutch and British. You should read the actual accounts sometime.

No, it's scary but true: more people have been killed by wars launched by ATHEISTS than by religious people, and between religions, more blood has been spilled by Muslims than by Christians.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 06, 2004.

"You're digressing, al-Qaeda clearly says that their purpose is to drive the US out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq and the non-palestinian jews from Palestine. It is either extreme arrogance or extreme ignorance on the part of the americans to portray themselves or Israelis as victims."

Where do you want these Jews to go? Many of the "non-palestian jews" are from other Muslim-dominated countries where they were not treated very well either. The PLO, only a few years ago, wanted the Israelis to be driven into the Mediterranean. Is that where the "non- palestian jews" should go? What about the Palestian Christians? For some reason, Muslims don't seem to want them in Palestine either.

Here's a little "Al Qaida" poetry for you. Maybe it will give you some insight into what they want:

"Oh fie, you Hindus, you cow urine drinkers. May destruction prevail upon you, and die. You lower than animals and brothers of Jews. Do not worry you will see how much we care. We will keep in mind, the act of burning alive. You know it is fair, an eye for an eye.

Many lives we have to avenge, O ye pagans, Start counting your days from now, You should have remembered you savage people We nurture our young ones on Jihaad. They do not fear death and are willing martyrs, Ready to sacrifice their lives right now."

Basically, they will kill anyone (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists) that stands in their way to declaring all lands for Allah, and forcing their false religion on all mankind. Do you think that there will come a day when Al Qaida will stop "nurturing [their] young ones on Jihaad?"

Do you believe that Al Qaida should just be taken at its word when it limits its current demands? Do you realize that Al Qaida might just be asking for short term concessions? Hopefully, Americans aren't so naive. "Extreme arrogance or ignorance?" Ummm...no. Just a recognition that this extremist Muslim network is not setting bounds on how much power it wants to obtain. Go to their websites, learn how to make poisons: they test their concoctions on rabbits, but give recommendations on dosages for infidels. You can chose the method: quick death or slow death. They have bomb-making manuals, manuals for handling weapons, and networks of programmers who are learning how to compromise computer security and carry out "cyber attacks." They have been building a network of terrorists all over the globe, and they aren't just going to drop their ways if we capitulate to their blackmail.

Call me arrogant and ignorant, but I'm happy to support the US, Israel, and any other country that opposes Al Qaida and seeks to destroy it.

"As for atrocities, I would recommend that you read THE INQUISITION: A Study in Absolute Catholic Power by Arthur Maricle. It's available on the internet."

Now you're just changing the subject. But, I'm happy to set your misunderstanding of history straight.

First, there was no "absolute Catholic power" in Spain. The pope (the visible head of the Catholic Church) exerted no direct temporal authority over the kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula. On the contrary, the pope rebuked the Spanish for what he considered excesses during the Inquisition. So the title of the book itself is false. Key facts are: the "Black Legend" is a largely discredited fabrication of "historians" who were the enemies of the Spanish Empire; other sixteenth century governments' systems of justice were much worse than the Spanish courts; the ecclesiastical courts only applied to Catholics; many Muslims faked conversion to Catholicism as a means to subvert the kingdom and return it to Muslim rule. Even today, Muslims are working to bring the Peninsula back to Muslim rule.

Consider the history of Spain and Portugal--they had to live under the yoke of a foreign Muslim oppressor for around 800 years. They demanded their sovereignty, and they achieved it.

If you are interested in discussing the history of the Inquisition, here's some more:

http://www.catholic.com/library/inquisition.asp

-- (umm@umm.com), July 06, 2004.

“Where do you want these Jews to go? Many of the "non-palestian jews" are from other Muslim-dominated countries where they were not treated very well either.” (umm)

Actually until the 1920s when European Jews began driving Palestinians off the land their ancestors had lived on for centuries, the quite large Jewish minorities in Muslim countries such as Morocco and Iraq, were for centuries treated better in general than Jews in Christian countries. The formerly large Jewish minority in Morocco were descended from Spanish Jewish refugees from persecution by Christians. I don’t doubt that Al-Quaida aims to kill or subject the whole world, but please do not damn all 1.2 billion Muslims by association with Al-Quaida. Many Muslims are working their hardest (and even dying) to stop Al-Qaida. If the Palestinian question was resolved, there would be far less mistreatment of Jews in Muslim countries.

“many Muslims faked conversion to Catholicism as a means to subvert the kingdom and return it to Muslim rule.”

Maybe some did, but it’s more logical to think that the vast majority of insincere conversions occurred because, given the choice between exile, conversion or death, many Muslims (and Jews) chose conversion just so that they could continue to live peacefully in the land their ancestors had lived in for 800 years.

“Even today, Muslims are working to bring the Peninsula back to Muslim rule.”

Again, Al-Quaida may be doing this. “Muslims” as a whole are not.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 06, 2004.

Steve,

Your points are well taken. I think they add temperance to my own, though I don't believe they contradict what I wrote.

Under Islamic rule, such as the Caliphate in Spain and Portugal, Muslims are first-class and non-Muslims are second class. There can be a "peace" even without justice. It comes through subjugation. I'm sure that plenty of Muslims wanted to return to the "800 year peace." Random funny thought: this reminds me of a Palestian who, discussing the topic of peace said, "Israelis want peace in Israel. We Palestinians also want a piece in Israel."

"Again, Al-Quaida may be doing this. “Muslims” as a whole are not."

Well, let's say that it's some subset of Muslims. That was my original intent, anyway. It is greater than the Al Qaida network (which is not a single organization) and less than the entire flock of 1 billion+ Muslim faithful. Who can know how many Muslims are involved in attempting to return Spain to Islam?

Also, you may be thinking that I'm referring to those who directly use violence. In fact, I'm certain that many Muslims are spreading their religion peacefully through other non-violent means: resettling in Spain, having kids, proselytizing, etc. The means vary. the objective is the same.

BTW, I do think of the Mediterranian Muslims as historically moderate, and a more intellectual culture. Unfortunately, the Arabian Peninsula Arabs have the oil money, and are pumping their revenues into funding madrasas that indoctrinate their brand of Islam into more of the next generation.

-- (umm@umm.com), July 06, 2004.

“I'm certain that many Muslims are spreading their religion peacefully through other non-violent means: resettling in Spain, having kids, proselytizing, etc. The means vary. the objective is the same.”

Is there something wrong with this? Catholics and Muslims alike have always viewed it as an essential part of their religion to preach it to everyone with the ultimate aim of converting the whole world. Both religions emphasize the importance of married couples being generous in accepting children and bringing them up in the faith. And Christians have outdone everyone in migrating en masse to other countries all around the world. Maybe you are old enough to remember when some narrow-minded Protestants complained that Catholics were trying to "take over the country" through "excessive" immigration, proselytizing, and having "too many" children. Let's not be as narrow- minded as that. If Muslims want to use these non-violent methods to spread their religion, I say, good luck to them, let’s do the same, and may the best religion win.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 06, 2004.

"Is there something wrong with this?"

I simply made an observation without passing judgment of right or wrong.

To answer your question, the spread of any false religion (Islam, protestantism) or "-ism" (atheism, Communism, modernism, fascism) is a bad thing. It doesn't matter how it happens.

The fact that humanity should be "fruitful and multiply" does not justify the spread of any false religion. To paraphrase the famous saying, "The means doesn't justify the end."

-- (umm@umm.com), July 07, 2004.

PS:

After my last post, I should say that your last post's points are well taken. I think we can agree that it would be preferable that religious debate could occur in a free marketplace of ideas, a la First Amendment. It's unfortunate that the US foreign policy hasn't tried to champion the principles of the Bill of Rights outside our borders. Unfortunately, geo-politics can force compromises, as it did in the Cold War, for example.

-- (umm@umm.com), July 07, 2004.

Knowing what we know about Islam, and its inherit hatred of Christians, how could the pope have kissed the Koran? It certainly couldn't have been to convert any muslims? This really, really bothers me. What was he trying to say? That Islam is okay? Do we have missionaries trying to convert those poor people, and if not, why not? If my circumstances were different (and if I werent, frankly, terrified) I would go over their and try to convert as many as possible before I was beheaded. LB

-- Lydia Byrd (oiseaumouche@aol.com), July 07, 2004.

But we do champion the free spreech ideals of our bill of rights abroad! Have we shut down Al Jazeera? No. How many independent newspapers and media are open in Iraq? Dozens and dozens. WE respect "freedom of speech and religion" because "we" understand that these can exist in a peaceful society as long as everyone agrees to the fundamental rule of law.

I agree that "we" could do more and make the case better. I know many Marines who do make the argument in person and in the local level in Iraq, encouraging Iraqis in discussions while helping them form local governments.

But there is the propaganda war going on... how many times is Bush's high powered speeches broadcast to the Western audience? He has spoken repeatedly about democracy and free speech, freedom of religion, etc. in talks on foreign policy, but these talks aren't repeated in the West. I had to go to whitehouse.gov to even find them!

(Much like trying to find out what the Pope has actually said on any given topic...The Western media reduces a 20 minutes speech to one sentence quotes, then doesn't even link to the actual speech!)

Yes, so "we" need to do a better job. And as I've mentioned before, the "war on terror" won't be won until we beat the Muslim extremists on the philosophical/theological front as well as the battlefield.

Once they loose the intellectual highground...and know it... then the tide will have turned. Trouble is few people in the West understand the fundamental issues at stake in Islam and Christianity, and fewer grasp the huge metaphysical presuppositions that divide the two and how these diverse foundations inevitably lead to widely different systems of law, order, and human development.

It behoves us all to read at least two documents: Thomas Aquinas' Summa Contra Gentiles, and Osama's letter to the West. Osama thinks he's one smart cookie - and thus feels supremely morally assured of victory. This attitude of his of being "sure" of his righteousness and moral standing is a powerful intoxicant. Hitler and Lenin too were brilliant men in their time preaching a gospel of "historical inevitability" that made their peers hope in a great tomorrow, glory and power, the coming "kingdom" (*aping Our Lord's Kingdom), which would last for a thousand years.

Of course... if one is right and is moral, then this DOES produce firmness of convinction and a sense of peace in the face of strife. And if a righteous man is confronted with evil he will have an "attitude" which seems unbending... but the key is to see objectively who is right and who is wrong!

Sure Muslims have a right to not be coerced from believing in Islam. But it's equally true that Christians and Jews have a right to not be coerced from believing in our religions.

Osama's first error is to think that he can so coerce people by threatening them with violence.

His second error is to attribute all evil in history only to the "other side" as though Muslims had nothing to do with the Crusades and the Christians just spontaneously decided to be mean. He's mad that the Spanish Christians rolled back Muslim conquests. But wait, the Muslims conquered formerly Christian lands throughout the Middle east to begin with! So which side really is the unjust aggressor here? (By going all the way back to the Crusades to blame America, he opens himself to his further history).

He compounds his error by assuming that "the West" is a moral monolith: that all Americans are the same, believe the same thing, do the same things and thus are mutually and corporately responsible for each other's actions - yet at the same time He and many other Muslims like him are the first to deny that all Muslims are morally responsible for all the evil done by other Muslim who happen to be criminals or do bad things! Yet, morality is universal! You can't slam America or "the west" for being bad while giving your own hemisphere a pass on the same lines!

The above is just the internal inconsistencies of his letter.

Going into metaphysics and theology, he (and Muslims) are wrong about the impossibility of God being Father and Son and Holy Spirit. They're wrong about God's revelation of Himself in history.

But no one is challenging them on these things. Maybe because to do so would be truly to "get down to brass tacks" and thus paradoxically, it seems easier to just fight them physically than to debate them with words.

But "the pen is mighter than the sword" and indeed THE WORD of the Lord penetrates all things, even the marrow of the bones (to paraphrase the Old Testaement)...until the intellectual battle is fought and won, the physical battle will rage on and on.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 07, 2004.

Thanks for your response. I think you brought up some great points. I do want to clarify one thing that you said, though.

"But we do champion the free spreech ideals of our bill of rights abroad!"

Actually, I was referring to our foreign policy with "friendly" and sovereign nations. For a Cold War example, the Iraqi gov't oppressing Kurds, this was not really mentioned during the Cold War. The official public outrage was delayed until the first Gulf War. The Turkish oppression of Kurds has been generally overlooked by the US gov't. This might have to do with the Kurdish leanings toward Communism and the USSR, at least for the reason that "your enemy's enemy is your friend."

In the case of many of the Gulf states, there is little or no freedom of religion for them. The Muslim countries (friend or foe) have restrained freedom of their press. The mainland Chinese government has policies which go against the principles of the Bill of Rights: freedom of speech, of religion, of the press, freedom to organize rival non-Communist political parties.

I think the main problem with foreign policy is that much of the world doesn't agree with the American (Bill of Rights) idea of freedom. With geo-politics, the US hasn't been able to be as selective about allies as I would have liked. American diplomacy can only go so far to encourage allies to adopt our freedoms. Given this, I still think the US should try to spread its principles, as you mentioned is happening in Iraq.

BTW, I am not saying that the US is directly constraining free speech outside our borders. Instead, I'm saying that the US may have un- tapped clout to influence policy changes toward freedom. Unfortunately, US-associated organizations such as the IMF and World Bank have spent much of our clout and our taxpayer money to force anti-Christian values on debtor nations around the world. This includes coerced sterilizations programs, abortion liberalization, etc.

-- (umm@umm.com), July 07, 2004.

This is obviously an intellectual and theologically learned group, so will one of you erudite posters please answer my question regarding the Pope and the Koran? Someone showed me a picture on the internet of the Pope kissing the Koran, so unless it was retouched, it did happen, and it freaked my out. What was the Pope doing kissing the Koran, and am I wrong in saying that this really, really, really bothers me? Am I on drugs or was this sacrilegous? Does or does not the Koran promote killing of all christians? I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY that could have been construed as an act of trying to convert Muslims.

Speaking of which, where are the crusaders when we need them? LB

-- Lydia Byrd (oiseaumouche@aol.com), July 08, 2004.

Lydia, Islam does not have an “inherent” hatred of Christians. Some Muslims hate Christians. The vast majority do not. Yes I think the pope WAS trying to convert Muslims, and yes I think he WAS saying that Islam is “okay” as far as it goes. Islam contains errors but it also contains a lot of truth. The Pope kisses the earth of the countries he visits. The kiss doesn’t mean he thinks that that country is perfect, or that he endorses aggressive nationalism by the people of that country. It’s to show he loves that country and its people. The same way you kiss your friends and relations to show you love them even though they are imperfect sinners.

The Koran does NOT promote the killing of Christians, despite what a few fanatical idiots like Bin Laden claim. Muslims believe in the one true God; that we all will go to Heaven or Hell depending on the morality of our behavior in this life; that prayer, fasting and charity are essential; and many other beliefs they share with us. Compared to most other people in the world, they are almost halfway there as far as the truth of the Catholic faith. I would be much MORE concerned if I saw the pope kissing the books of Marx or Mao.

No, we don’t send many missionaries to Muslims, just like we don’t send many to convert the Mormons or the protestants, because we know that this sort of approach isn’t very effective with people who have a theologically and culturally highly developed religion. I suggest the example of people who truly live out the Catholic faith is the best way of converting people of these religions. As Saladin the Muslim king said to St Francis of Assisi, “If all Christians were like you, I too would become a Christian.” No, I don’t think another Crusade would help. The crusades ended up doing more harm than good, that’s why we stopped them.

Umm, the problem is two fold; the people of the world agree with "the idea of freedom" but many of their despotic rulers don’t, because it would threaten their own position. Also, many in Muslim countries, and in America, see “the American (Bill of Rights) idea of freedom” as including the freedom to publish pornography, perform abortions, sterilization, promote sodomy and “marry” sodomites to each other, etc. The Muslims are right to resist this. Don’t forget that if the Muslim countries, together with (shamefully few) Christian countries, had not vetoed it in 1994, the UN would have officially enshrined “the right to abortion on demand” as part of its universal charter of womens rights.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 08, 2004.

Steve, thank you for your response. You are a much kinder and forgiving person than I, because I DONT see any goodness at all in a religion that okays wife beatings, subjugates women where possible, and insists that the lust in men's hearts is the fault of women baring their hair. I'll let the subject drop, because as for what the Pope did, well, your or my opinion on his motives is pure speculation anyway. I do know that Muslims do not believe in the Trinity nor do they hold sacred the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. As for their disdain of non-muslims I googled the following which is from the About, Inc website. I don't have a copy of the Koran, nor would I spend good money on one, much less kiss it, so I cannot verify the accuracy of these quotes, but here goes:

O ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers .... and let them find harshness in you. [Koran, Repentance: 123]

Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. [Koran, Repentance: 29]

O believers, do not treat your fathers and brothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. [Koran, Repentance: 20]

Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends.... whoso does that belongs not to God. [Koran, The House of Imram: 60]

The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished. [Muslim religious edict, 1993 Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]

If someone becomes a Muslim then apostatizes, he would be asked to repent; if he does not repent, he should be killed. [Imam al-Shafi'i, The Ordinances of the Qur'an (part 1, p. 289)]

Somebody may say: ‘Do you want to deny freedom to people?' We say to him: ‘If what is meant by freedom is to disbelieve in God's religion, or the freedom of infidelity and apostasy, then that freedom is abolished and we do not recognize it; we even call for its eradication, and we strive to oppress it. We declare that publicly and in daylight"' [Dr. Taha Jabir's, "The Islamic Society" April 17,1984, p. 26]

-- Lydia Byrd (oiseaumouche@aol.com), July 08, 2004.

Lydia, I believe those quotes are more or less accurate (though I think that what has been left out and marked by … in the first and fourth quotes considerably dilutes their apparent harshness), but there’s a few things you need to realize to see them in context:

Islam’s early years were marked by wars against unbelievers, and the Koran reflects this, and also Mohammad’s frustration that Jews and Christians refused to simply covert to Islam as he had been confident they would. 99.9% of modern muslims do not believe Islam calls them to murder unbelievers.

The word translated as “unbelievers” is usually taken to mean those who do not believe in the one true God, i.e. it excludes Christians and Jews.

There are similar verses in the Bible calling for murder of unbelievers, cutting off relatives if they do not believe, not associating with unbelievers etc. , which can be and are taken out of context by some non-Christians (usually atheists) to “prove” that Christianity is evil.

Re “a religion that okays wife beatings, subjugates women where possible, and insists that the lust in men's hearts is the fault of women baring their hair” – These are interpretations and cultural biases held by a minority of muslims. It is not too long ago that quite a few Christians falsely held that these things were endorsed by Christianity and the Bible.

Re the quotes from the Sheik, the Imam, and Dr Tabir: again, these are basically personal opinions. Islam has no hierarchy, no priesthood, no "supreme religious authority". Any muslim can assume the title Sheik (which means “leader, chief” – Arabic-speaking employees use it to refer to their boss at work) or Imam (prayer leader), as long as they are accepted as leaders by a small local group of muslims (who could change their minds and acclaim someone else as leader at any time). I’m sure the one about the flat earth is regarded as hilarious even by most muslims in Saudi Arabia (which is dominated by an atypical extreme muslim sect, the Wahhabis).

Btw the intended aim of the Crusades was not to convert or conquer the muslims, but merely to ensure safe passage for Christian pilgrims to the sacred places of the Holy Land. But as has been seen many times before and since, when you send a large group of armed men far away, power goes to their heads. They committed indefensible crimes against not only muslims, but even against Eastern Orthodox Christians.

I’m not here to defend Islam and I realize it has an aggressive streak to it. There is an aphorism, “Judaism is Hope, Islam is Faith, Christianity is Love.” Some muslims I know put me to shame by the strength of their faith. But we can only convert them through showing them the power of Christ’s love in our lives, and especially in our love for them. Not just because it’s the ecumenical, multicultural, politically correct, or “nice” thing to do. But because Christ ordered us to do so; and because it’s the only method that will work!

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 08, 2004.

A great article to read:

Ci vilization vs. Trivia

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@Hotmail.com), July 09, 2004.

Their faith? Faith in what? That God exists? Doh! We can conclude as much from sheer reason! That doing his will is smarter than not? Again, a doh! reasonable conclusion based on knowledge of his existence. But what else do they have? What truly surprising moral lifestyle or theory do they have which proves great "faith" (rather than mere "belief")?

They pray alot. I grant you. Bravo. But try living in those lands and not praying 5 times a day when EVERYONE else does! You'd loose your head...which both motivates men to pray (talk about a mortal sin for not praying...not only do they jeapordize their souls...but they put their lives in immediate danger!) and gives them a strong social tool to enforce "orthodoxy".

They go on pilgrimage. Bravo. But then, once per life time pilgrimages occur among Catholics too but we don't get any kudos.

They believe in God and "his prophet" - the first a question of reason, the second suspension of belief: believe Mohammed...because he says so! Not even the Jews believed guys who claimed to be prophets merely because they said so or threatened them with violence.

If faith is trust in that which you can not see...what in Islam fits that definition?

Catholics can point to the Eucharist and Trinity as two incredible beliefs which surpass our perceptions and human reasoning...

So while we can admire certain aspects of their praxis...I'd not be too quick to assume their belief is equal to "faith" or confuse superficial moral lifestyles with interior conversion of heart.

If there really were 998,990,000 Muslims who just were the nicest, kindest, prayerful people in the world... how would you account all the wars they fight among themselves, as well as with everyone else? How do you explain Algeria? Sudan? Jordanians killing Palestinians, Syrians killing Lebanese, Turks, Iraqis, and Iranians killing Kurds, Afganis killing each other...Somalians killing each other, dictatorships everywhere.

Just run the numbers.... if this religion is truly supernatural in origin - not merely belief based on a) reason and b) power, then something is wrong. Shiites against Sunnis. Sunnis divided into Wahabis and others... If Mohammed really was the last prophet of God...and the Koran was "perfect" and a miracle... then how to explain reasonably the massive turmoil and dissension, the lack of a central moral teaching authority?

I think we tend to cut them way too much slack in the eagerness to "be nice" when what is required is that we respect them as fellow human beings, sons of Adam and potential heirs of the Kingdom. You don't let potential heirs to a kingdom keep believing myths and errors, especially when it only hurts them and sparks wars.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 09, 2004.

Great work, Joe; Our intelligent friend is convinced the Muslim can have a positive side. Just as all Chrisitans must see.

But their so-called faith? They are followers after a false and barbarous prophet. All of them practically brainwashed. We know it without doubt because Jesus Christ taught us that by their fruits we would know the false ones. Mu hammad is the one most steeped in falsehood; and his fruits:

--Test them. If you or I should dare to condemn or even laugh at Mu hammad, there's little question what would happen. They ALL would see us as deserving of death. Even the ones Steve thinks are soooo misunderstood. Whose ''faith'' puts him to shame!

Of course, Steve maintains nobody should condemn or ''laugh'' at Mu hammad to start with; it's after all such a ''strong faith !'' Why hurt a foolish believer's feelings? It isn't Christ-like, it's not Feng Shui, for goodness sakes !

Our Lord stated with no qualms, the false prophet would come. No, He never taqught us we should ''hate'' him; and we don't; not as a human soul. But when he incites his own to devilish hatred and indifference to life, are we expected to bow to him? The prophet certainly said so. The exact meaning of the word Isla m is ''submission.'' And no one has truly submitted to Allah and His divine will, if he/she hasn't first submitted to the false prophet. You must bow.

There is no exception; and if you fall for any of that ''People of the Book'' rationale, you won't defend yourself or your children. How convenient for fanatics like Osama and the Taliban. You won't even be a moving target. People like Steve will be supine. Happy and supine.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 09, 2004.

Bill, why did you post that article in THIS thread? OK, Saddam is getting a fair trial, what’s that got to do with the question YOU posed?

“Their faith? Faith in what? That God exists? Doh! We can conclude as much from sheer reason! That doing his will is smarter than not? Again, a doh! reasonable conclusion based on knowledge of his existence.” (Joe)

Yes, we CAN conclude this from reason. But more than half of humanity does NOT believe in the one God. Many of those that do, do not see any particular reason to do God’s will. Are ALL of those people irrational or stupid? I think the Muslims deserve some credit for their monotheism, and their beliefs that God is separate from the world and vitally interested in what humans do.

“try living in those lands and not praying 5 times a day when EVERYONE else does! You'd loose your head”

Pure hyperbole, Joe. Most of their praying occurs at home or at work in private rooms. Even the Taliban could not place a policeman beside every single person at the prescribed 5 times each day. Most muslims are actually a bit slack about meeting this requirement.

“once per life time pilgrimages occur among Catholics too but we don't get any kudos.” We don’t do it for the kudos, but for the grace.

“If faith is trust in that which you can not see...what in Islam fits that definition? Catholics can point to the Eucharist and Trinity as two incredible beliefs which surpass our perceptions and human reasoning...”

If the strength of ones faith is defined by how "incredible" is that in which we believe, that would mean our Faith is inferior to those of the Mormons, the Moonies and the Raelians.

“I'd not be too quick to assume their belief is equal to "faith" or confuse superficial moral lifestyles with interior conversion of heart. “

But you're very quick to say their morality is only “superficial” and to claim to be able to look into all of their hearts. “how would you account all the wars they fight among themselves, as well as with everyone else?...dictatorships everywhere. “

A pretty dangerous argument. Christians have had their fair share of wars both among themselves and against others. Sure, Moslems spread through North Africa and the Middle East mainly by war and conquest. Christians conquered through war most of Europe and Asia, nearly all of Africa, and the whole Western Hemisphere. Most Christian countries were dictatorships until 20-30 years ago.

“if this religion is truly supernatural in origin - not merely belief based on a) reason and b) power, then something is wrong. Shiites against Sunnis. Sunnis divided into Wahabis and others... If Mohammed really was the last prophet of God...and the Koran was "perfect" and a miracle”

You seem to think I’m here as an apologist for the truth of the muslim religion. I’m not. I was just correcting Lydia’s impression of muslims as universally and irredeemably evil. Are you saying the Pope should NOT have kissed the Koran?

Eugene, I hesitate even to respond to you because you reduce every argument to the intellectual level of a trailer-park brawl. I said the STRENGTH of their faith puts me to shame. I did NOT say their faith itself is superior to what I believe in. On the contrary.

In fact I DID “condemn” or “laugh at” Mohammad when I mentioned above about him writing the Koran to suit his prejudices at the time. Muslims in fact regard the Koran as literally DICTATED to Mohammed directly by the voice of God. But I haven’t noticed any muslims put out a fatwa on me yet calling for all true muslims to stone me to death. Obviously your ingenious idea of putting a space in the words “islam” and “muslim” has prevented them from even knowing we’re here! LOL!

"Feng shui"? This is an amazingly irrational non-sequitur even by your standards.

“when he incites his own to devilish hatred and indifference to life, are we expected to bow to him? The prophet certainly said so.” No he didn’t. Muslims believe Muhammad was only a man, not God, not a demi-God or anything of the sort. They believe they should honor Muhammad but bow only to God.

I think it is “supine” to lie down in your own comfortable little world without bothering to find out about the world around you or having to relate to people who are different from you, other than to blast them away when they get in your way or some crazy few of them attack your countrymen. To get up and try to understand them is the opposite of being supine and a necessary step to converting them. Joe and Lydia, I suggest you go and meet and get to know some real live muslims. Eugene, go and re-establish the friendships you had with muslims before 9/11. Then come back a bit more qualified to tell us what islam is REALLY like.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 13, 2004.