For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 22, 2004

Answers

"""Why did Paul say he did not come to baptize? Two reasons: (1) Because apostles were sent to disseminate the Christian message for the first time in human history. The response of the individual is up to that individual. Obviously, Paul wanted everyone to believe AND be baptized to be saved. But that was not his assigned mission - he was sent to preach. It's up to God to give the increase (1 Cor. 3:6). (2) Paul states explicitly why he was glad he didn't baptize very many personally: "lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name" (vs. 15). In other words, baptism was so essential to a proper response to the gospel that he was glad that, since the Corinthians were lining up behind personalities, he had not baptized anymore than he did lest they give their allegiance to him rather than Christ."""

- Kevin Walker

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 22, 2004.

Paul claims he was sent to Preach the Gospel, not to baptize. How is this consistent with your belief, since, apparently, Paul's "Gospel" doesn't include your "must be baptized" law? Is baptism seperate from the Gospel or part of the Gospel, and if part of the Gospel, why wasn't Paul preaching it?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 22, 2004.

David,

The response to the gospel INCLUDES baptism (in water). Paul preached baptism and he baptized several people. Paul's mission was NOT to baptize (there were other people who could accomplish this task) it was to PREACH the gospel. The ONLY proper response to the gospel includes being IMMERSED in water FOR the remission of sins.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 23, 2004.

Paul was not sent by God to give people ritual washings, but to proclaim Jesus as the Savior (Acts 18:5) and to suffer for the Name of Jesus (Acts 9:16.)

This does not mean Baptism is not vitally connected with the Good News. Baptism is where Christ personally announces the Good News (forgiveness) to the individual who believes in Him.

The immediate response of a person who believes the Good News (Jesus is the Savior Who can forgive sin) will be that he eagerly accepts the Savior's initial Word of absolution. He will want to be marked as Christ's sheep, enjoying the benefits only the flock is allowed to enjoy.

Some err by saying it's just an outward symbol of an inward change.

Some err by saying it's a step towards turning away God's wrath.

Both are wrong.

Baptism is God's work whereby He outwardly declares we are forgiven.

This pronouncement of forgiveness is no mere symbol. It's a living Word of God, since it is done by Christ, in His Stead. Christ speaks His personal Word of forgiveness in Baptism.

This pronouncement of forgiveness does not turn away God's wrath. It tells the baptized person, by the Authority of Christ, that God's wrath has already been averted. It assures the sinner of forgiveness because of his faith attitude.

How is God's wrath turned away? Through Baptism? No. Through genuinely trusting (attitude of the heart) in Christ, who shed His blood for our sins, died, was buried, and rose again.

A person who believes will eagerly accept Christ's method of outwardly marking us as one of His sheep. A person who does not believe will not see the benefits involved in becoming marked as one of Christ's sheep.

This one man named Jesus is the Son of God and He can save us, because He is the one who took upon Himself every sin of every sinner.

Only HE has the right to save because only HE has been given the right to judge every creature on the Last Day.

Those who change their hearts and have a RIGHT ATTITUDE toward Jesus will be admitted into God's Kingdom and will be rewarded according to their works. Some will receive more rewards than others.

Those who persist in a WRONG ATTITUDE toward Jesus will receive from Jesus the punishment they deserve according to the sins they've committed. Some will be punished more than others.

Repent (attitude change) and believe (heart trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. This is God's Good Promise. If you believe (heart trust) in the Lord Jesus, then be washed with water in His Name so that you can be assured in your conscience that Christ personally accepts you as His own.

Jesus prefers an immediate immersion washing, but being washed with any amount of water in His Name is the important thing. (Immersion is absolutely impossible in some climates and situations.)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 24, 2004.

" Jesus prefers an immediate immersion washing, but being washed with any amount of water in His Name is the important thing. (Immersion is absolutely impossible in some climates and situations.) "

What are you saying, Max? If the "heart" is there, the person who accepts Christ will have to make the effort to get immersed--climate or no climate. With your rational, a person can find a place to get dunked in water. Or, he/she can get in wagon, car, airplane, train, skateboard, hiking shoes, donkey, truck, or chariot and go down to Florida for his/her Baptism. Or, have the water brought in to his/her church. That's if he/she really has a "heart" and wants to do what Jesus truly prefers.

Anyway, the believer will still need to expend some work in order to fulfill this ordinance. The world isn't exactly so big to make Baptism immersing impossible.

How do you know what Jesus prefers?

And, no. I'm not trying to be funny, Max.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 24, 2004.

Is baptism a burial???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 25, 2004.

If you are lost in your sins, then Yes, Kevin. Paul speaks about nailing them.

If it is something to be part of, then we are clothed. Paul speaks about putting it on , like an armor.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 26, 2004.

Elpidio,

Thanks for your response.

I would like the "faith only" response to this question.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 26, 2004.

For David, Faith or Max:

Is baptism a burial???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 01, 2004.

bump...

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 03, 2004.

Kevin,

I think that perhaps these are the passages to which you refer. Maybe this will spur a response.

Romans 2 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Colossians 2 (KJV) 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 04, 2004.

I’m not responding, as I believe it is a trick question. Kevin will just pluck out a verse to make me look bad.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Perhaps this passage also relates to this matter:

Colossians 2 (KJV)
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 04, 2004.

I have decided not to persist in these discussions with Kevin. The main problem is his view of Adam’s fall (Historically known as Pelagianism) and God’s absolute sovereignty. You will just be going around in circles if a conversation continues without settling these matters initially. What effects the fall of Adam had on humankind, and to what extent Jehovah is sovereign are questions that require an answer before a meaningful discussion can ever take place with a Church of Christ-er.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

The direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the Conversion process is also something that requires an answer.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Emily,

Once the things I mentioned above are discussed, you shall see whom is the one really telling the truth. It's not enough that I raise one scripture, and he raises another one that seems to contradict my position (vice versa). We must harmonize the Word of God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Emily,

Yes, you are correct with the verses you quoted. Baptism is a burial.

David,

No, I did not ask a trick question.

Here is the next question:

Do we bury people who are dead or alive???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 04, 2004.

I believe there are two passages in Scripture that destroy the Churches of Christ position, one of them in just one swoop-Acts 10 and James 6. Kevin believes that man is born in a neutral state, sinless and has the ability to choose God (the myth of libertarian free will), while Jesus says the contrary in John 6. Can Kevin explain that passage? No, he cannot. He can simply deny the Words of Christ, as this was the case the last time I brought up this passage.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Another trick question Kevin.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

There is no "direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the Conversion process".

Faith only comes through the word of God. (Romans 10:17).

The Holy Spirit does not need to operate directly on the human heart in conversion because it is the word of God that discovers our condition. (Hebrews 4:12).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 04, 2004.

I do not deny that the Word of God is the instrument that is used. But we need both.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

You are mistaken.

If 2 Tim 3:16-17 is true, "16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

And it is, then nothing else is needed or required.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 04, 2004.

David,

Please quote the exact passages in Acts 10 and John 6 and we will see if these "destroy the church of christ position" as you assert.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 04, 2004.

Kevin, you can read them for yourself. I'm sorry, I have to leave now. I'll be back in a few hours, maybe 9:30 my time.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Also, look at the Enuch and Lydia in Acts.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

No, it is not another trick question, I am trying to get you to see how your faith only salvation does not agree with the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 04, 2004.

David,

When you get back, please provide the specific passages that you are talking about.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 04, 2004.

Kevin,

It'd help if you wrote something I can respond to. Bye for now.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David, I think this is the John 6 passage. What are you talking about in Acts 10?

John 6 (KJV)
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 04, 2004.

Emily,

How does the Father draw people today??? Is it through a direct operation of the Holy Spirit as some contend???

Since "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17), it is the word of God that produces faith and this is how God draws people today.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

"Is it through a direct operation of the Holy Spirit as some contend???"

Yes.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

The eunuch was taught by Philip, there was no direct operation of the Holy Spirit in this instance. Lydia was taught by Paul, just because "THe Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul" is no proof that there was a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. Since faith comes by hearing the word of God, it is the word of God that Paul spoke that caused Lydia to obey the gospel by being baptized into Christ.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Take the example of the Ethiopian Eunuch Kevin. He had the scriptures but did not understand them until a Spirit-filled believer came to him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Opps, we posted at the same time...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

Here is where I was going with the question I asked earlier, "Do we bury people who are dead or alive???"

Since faith only advocates state that one is saved prior to being baptized, then they claim that they are alive in Christ. If baptism is a burial (and it is), then how do these people justify the fact that they are burying a live man??? We bury those who are dead, not those who are alive. One is not a new creation until they have died to their sins (repentance) and been buried with Christ in baptism. The old man dies to sin, and the new man comes up from the watery grave of baptism having their sins washed away in the blood of Christ.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Kevin,

Would a dead man want to be baptized in the first place? No...he's dead.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

This is why we cannot go any further in this discussion. I believe the natural man that has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit is dead in sin, and you don't. See where our theology is based on? Adam's fall.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

This is a spiritual death, not a physical death. If one physically died, they would not be able to be baptized at all.

Yea, your theology states that one cannot do anything without a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God must operate directly on the heart of a sinner for him to obey the things that God has stated in His word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

If the Holy Spirit has a direct operation on the heart of man, is it possible for one to resist or reject the Spirit's calling???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Kevin,

I am speaking in biblical terms, the bible calls mans Spiritual state as "dead". I never was talking about physical death.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

You wrote, "Take the example of the Ethiopian Eunuch Kevin. He had the scriptures but did not understand them until a Spirit-filled believer came to him."

This is because at that time the word of God was spoken "orally", they did not have the completed New Testament and God spoke through the apostles.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Not according to Jesus, as he said ,"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Oh, but Judas...? Well, you can deny the words of Christ, but I won't. It means what it says and says what it means.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

You wrote, "I am speaking in biblical terms, the bible calls mans Spiritual state as "dead". I never was talking about physical death."

Okay, then please explain how Paul was able to state in Romans 7:9, "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Is this the same Paul who wrote this?

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

How does one get faith David???

Is it by a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" or is it by the word of God??? (Romans 10:17).

Is there a lost book or books of the Bible that are able to produce faith in God???

We have already had this discussion about Judas. You deny that he was called but yet he was an apostle how is that possible David???

Please explain how I am denying the words of Christ???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

You deny the words of Jesus by trying to prove Jesus wrong by citing the example of Judas. You tell me, is Jesus a liar? Yes, I agree the Word of God is the instrument that is used. But one cannot come to Jesus without the direct operation of the Holy Spirit.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

People are not totally depraved but can choose to become better or worse.

Acts 10:2,22 - Before his conversion (11:14), Cornelius was devout and feared God. How could this be if he was totally depraved and incapable of choosing good or evil? (Luke 7:2-10).

Luke 8:15 - Some people obey God's word when they hear it because they have a "good and honest heart." How is this possible if they are totally depraved?

2 Timothy 3:13 - Other men grow worse and worse. Again, if they are already totally depraved and cannot choose good or evil, how can they get any worse?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

Just because I cite the example of Judas, how is this proving Jesus wrong??? Was Judas an apostle??? Yes or No??? There is no denying the words of Jesus from me as that is merely your opinion.

If one cannot come to God without a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" then one would not need the word of God for the Holy Spirit would be able to talk to this person "directly" and teach them the word of God.

We are free moral agents like Adam and Jesus.

Your calvinism doctrine admits that Adam, Eve and Jesus were free moral agents and had the power to choose between good and evil, but it says we have inherited total depravity so we do not have that power.

Take a look at these verses:

1 Corinthians 10:13 - With every temptation there is a way of escape so we do not have to give in and sin. We are like Adam and Eve in that, with each temptation we face, we can choose to overcome the temptation by taking the way of escape or we can choose not to.

Hebrews 4:15 - Jesus was tempted in all points like we are. He was a free moral agent but did not sin because He always chose to do right. Either we have the same power to choose or else Jesus was not tempted "in all points" like we are. If we have a totally depraved nature so we can never choose to do right, but He did not have that nature, then His temptation was not at all like ours!

Other passages showing that man is able to resist sin: James 4:7; John 5:14; 8:11; 1 John 2:1; 1 Cor 15:34; 2 Cor. 13:7; Eph. 6:16; 1 Thess. 5:22; 2 Tim. 2:19.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Please explain the FAll of Adam.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

"Just because I cite the example of Judas, how is this proving Jesus wrong???" - Kevin

Then please explain what Jesus meant in John 6.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

You wrote, "Please explain the FAll of Adam."

1 Corinthians 15:22 states, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."

We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin - death. We do not inherit the guilt of his sin (what you call original sin).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

I wrote, "Just because I cite the example of Judas, how is this proving Jesus wrong???"

To which David replied, "Then please explain what Jesus meant in John 6."

We have been over this ground before also right David???

This is the verse David is talking about: John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Here is the fulfillment of the passage that Jesus spoke "that of all He has given me I have lost nothing, but should raise it up at the last day": John 18:8-9, "8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

David,

You were the one who brought Judas up in the conversation on this thread.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

Many verses say people are able to choose to obey God or disobey Him.

One does not need a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" in order to obey God's commandments.

Joshua 24:15 - "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve ... But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

1 Kings 18:21 - Elijah said, "How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." The people had the power to choose.

Revelation 22:17 - The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. God invites people to come to Him. Whoever desires (or "will" - KJV) can do so. The choice is ours.

Psalms 119:30 - I have chosen the way of truth. How, if we cannot choose good or evil?

Hebrews 11:25 - Moses chose to suffer affliction with the people of God rather than the pleasures of sin.

Acts 17:11,12 - Even before they believed, the Bereans were noble-minded and had a ready mind to search the Scriptures and learn the truth.

Isaiah 1:18-20 - God reasoned with the people offering to make their sins white as snow. "If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword". Their will determined the outcome.

Matthew 23:37 - Jesus wanted to gather the children of Jerusalem together, but they were not willing! The will of the people determined how they responded to Jesus' will.

Proverbs 1:29 - Some people do not choose the fear of the LORD.

Matthew 21:29 - Asked to do His father's will, a son said, "I will not." Later he repented and went. This illustrates our relationship to God.

We have the power to determine whether or not we obey Him.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 04, 2004.

""This is the verse David is talking about: John 6:39...Here is the fulfillment of the passage that Jesus spoke...John 18:8-9" - Kevin

First, I was discussing John 6:44, a passage you do not believe. You undermine Christ's Words by saying he couldn't have meant what he meant because of Judas. Christ says no man can come to him unless the Father draws them to him, you don't believe Christ and bring up Judas in order to "refute" David Ortiz, but you have to remember your argument is not with David Ortiz but with Jesus Christ. The last time you and your logic went to work, you said this passage doesn't apply to us because "they were words to the Jews" (paraphrase)

Seriously, it's arguments like that...agh..sheesh mahn! Ok, we can apply your logic to other Scriptures as well, and you know what, we just made half the bible (rather, half the N.T.) not relevant to us because "they were words to so and so".

All right, I'm done whining and rambling.

The passage I meant was John 6:44, but ok, let's look at the one you brought up (John 6:39, John 18:8-9).

So, those people died and Christ rose them up on the last day.. of.... August.. or.... ?? .. Sure buddy..I believe you.

Once again I will say we must harmonize Scripture. It's not enough to get into a verse-slinging contest.

E.g. of prooftexting: A Jehovah Witness takes his string of verses that say Jesus is only man in order to prove his humanity. A Oneness Pentecostal takes his string of verses that say Jesus is only God in order to prove their position.

You are going to have a though time proving that Jesus is only man (or only God) to someone who believes that he is the God-man.

Yes, there are verses that say man is dead and unable to seek for God, and yes there are others (like you listed) that talk about man doing good and being called by God to repent, etc.

How do we reconcile this? It seems you just want to ignore the verses that say "Jesus is just a man" and believe "Jesus is only God".

A reply to another post:

Acts 16:14

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

If the Lord hadn't opened her heart, could she have responded to the things spoken of by Paul?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2004.

These are excerpts from another thread:

"we are not talking about Judas salvation, we are talking about whether or not he was called." - Kevin

Why would you be asking if Judas was called in the first place? If he was, he would be raised on the last day just as Christ said. Unless Christ can fail to accomplish what he has said.

More quotes to ponder:

"If Judas wasn't drawn by the Father, then please tell us how Judas was able to be an Apostle???"

"I wasn't talking about salvation for Judas, I was asking wheether or not he was called. "

"How could he come to Jesus if the father did not call him???"

"Did Jesus choose Judas???"

Really now, Kevin, what was your point when you brought up Judas on that thread? Was it to prove David Ortiz wrong?

I remind you of what Jesus Christ said,""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

David Ortiz didn't make this up.

"There is no denying the words of Jesus from me as that is merely your opinion." - Kevin

Because...you...say so? Really, this is just an assertion as you did nothing to back it up. I atleast tried to explain why I believed that. Whether Judas is an apostle is not relevant. On that other thread, it is obvious you are using Judas to prove a point (Which utterly, was against Jesus Christ and not David Ortiz).

There are only a few possibilites:

1. Judas was drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44 and will be raised on the last day. [It's possible, but I believe we can see from Scripture he was truly not regenerate]

2. Judas was not drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44, and will not be raised on the last day [Could it be...is there a possibility...there are different types of "calls" in the bible?]

3. Judas was drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44, but then lost and damned. [This would make Christ an imperfect savior who fails to accomplish what he sets out to do]

4. Judas was not drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44 and will still be raised on the last day [This position very contrary to what the Bible states]

I really hope you can see that option 4 is a no-no. As with option 3.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2004.

-Is God's will thwarted by human free will?
-Is God's will limited by human free will?
-Can God fail at anything He intends to do?
-Is the human will somehow independent of all other influences so as to be truly free?
-Is the human will somehow independent of human motivations?
-If God does not influence a person's will, so as to allow him total freedom of will, then how is it that God draws the person? In other words, the drawing of a person is an influence upon the will.
-Does the human will have the ability to overcome various influences so as to make a neutral, objective decision?
-If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?
-Is the "free-willer" using the doctrine of complete freedom of will as a paradigm into which God's character and actions must fit?

-Questions compiled by M.Slick

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2004.

David,

Was Judas an Apostle???

Yes or No.

If Yes, please explain how Judas could be an Apostle if he were not called by God?

If No, please provide scriptural evidence to back up your claim.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"Is God's will thwarted by human free will?"

A better question to ask is, "Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God???

"Is God's will limited by human free will?"

A better question to ask is, "Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???

"Can God fail at anything He intends to do?"

No, His word will not come back void. (Isaiah 55:11).

"Is the human will somehow independent of all other influences so as to be truly free?"

Yes, we have free will otherwise we are nothing but robots. We have the opportunity to choose whether or not we want to obey God or obey the devil.

"Is the human will somehow independent of human motivations?"

I don't have an answer for this question.

"If God does not influence a person's will, so as to allow him total freedom of will, then how is it that God draws the person? In other words, the drawing of a person is an influence upon the will."

How does one get faith??? Is the will of God written down for us in the Bible??? Since there is no proof that anyone can know the will of God outside of His word, the fact of the matter is it is only through His word that one can know what they must do to be saved. Since this is the case, it is the word of God that draws the sinner to Christ.

"Does the human will have the ability to overcome various influences so as to make a neutral, objective decision?"

Yes, otherwise we do not have our own free will. Unless of course one has been so blinded by their own denomination bias that they refuse to see the truth. :-)

"If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?"

Yes, otherwise it is not free will. Does God impose His will over our own will??? If He does, where is the scripture(s) that prove this is the case???

"Is the "free-willer" using the doctrine of complete freedom of will as a paradigm into which God's character and actions must fit?"

God has already spoken through His word what one must do in order to be saved. It is up to us to either accept what God says by obeying the gospel, or one can reject the gospel and be lost.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

If Judas was called by the Father that means he will be raised on the last day. I believe what Jesus says, not what Kevin Walker says.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

David,

Was Judas an Apostle??? Yes or No???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

If he was/wasn't, does it still change was Jesus said?

,"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

If the Father draws you, will you be raised on the last day?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

David,

If Judas was an Apostle (and he was), then the verse you are quoting does not agree with your interpretation since Judas was lost.

Do you believe this verse teaches your "irresistable grace" doctrine???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"If Judas was an Apostle (and he was), then the verse you are quoting does not agree with your interpretation since Judas was lost." - Kevin

It doesn't matter what I think of Judas, what matters is what Jesus said and what Kevin Walker doesn't like about it. Does the case of Judas prove Jesus wrong? Did Christ fail to save Judas?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

How could Judas have been an Apostle if he were not "called by the Father"???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

Again, I quote myself:

There are only a few possibilites:

1. Judas was drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44 and will be raised on the last day. [It's possible, but I believe we can see from Scripture he was truly not regenerate]

2. Judas was not drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44, and will not be raised on the last day [Could it be...is there a possibility...there are different types of "calls" in the bible?]

3. Judas was drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44, but then lost and damned. [This would make Christ an imperfect savior who fails to accomplish what he sets out to do]

4. Judas was not drawn by the Father as described in John 6:44 and will still be raised on the last day [This position very contrary to what the Bible states]

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

Again, I will ask this question: How could Judas have been an Apostle if he were not "called by the Father"???

Who called him???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"How could Judas have been an Apostle if he were not "called by the Father"???"

Does this change what Christ said?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

Yes, it would change what Jesus said. Maybe not His words, but it would change the meaning of modern(relative) doctrines such as Calvinism. Jesus drew Judas to Him, but Judas still had his free will to contend with. Judas chose the humanistic path. Jesus knew Judas and knew that Judas would do his deed. Jesus didn't twist Judas' arm or reject Judas.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2004.

Rod,

I agree with your last post although I would add that it would "change" the calvinistic view of this verse. Calvinists use this verse to try to say that one cannot be lost and yet Judas was called by the Father and yet he was lost.

David,

The only thing that changes about the fact that Judas was called is not Jesus words, only your interpretation of them.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"Calvinists use this verse to try to say that one cannot be lost and yet Judas was called by the Father and yet he was lost." - Kevin

Then you are making Jesus a liar Kevin.

He said,"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

If you get drawn by the Father, will you be raised on the last day?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

Then, we should have a strong study of Judas to see what actually happened. And, we need to understand the full meaning of that Scripture, but not in the Calvinist frame of thought.

1. What does it mean to be "drawn" by the Father?

2. Why did Judas deny Christ?

3. Is Judas denied Salvation?

4. What determines a true calling or "drawing" by the Father?

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2004.

I see two parts:

1. one is drawn.

2. one must believe.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2004.

To me, the Scriptures are saying that we are "drawn" to Jesus because we understand Him as being God. We are accepting God because we realize who Jesus is and , therefore, we are drawn to Him.

Once we accept Him, we believe in Him as our Saviour. If we cease to believe, we cease to accept Salvation.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2004.

David wrote, "Then you are making Jesus a liar Kevin. He said,"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." If you get drawn by the Father, will you be raised on the last day?"

No, I am not making Jesus out to be a liar, just telling you that your interpretation of this verse is not in line with what the Bible teaches. There are some who are called, who will not be saved. In the parable of the sower in Luke 8:12-15 God says,

"12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

These people were called, but they did not believe.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These were called, and fell away.

14 And the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

These were called, brought no fruit to maturity and were lost.

15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience."

These were the one who "had a noble and good heart" and kept the word of God (i.e. did what God commanded in His word) and bore fruit with patience, these are the one's who will be raised on the last day.

It is possible to be called, and lost. Judas is a prime example. Ananias and his wife Sapphira are also examples of those who were called and yet lost. (Acts 5:1-11).

The verse that you quoted has already been fulfilled.

God commands all men to repent. (Acts 17:30). Will all men repent??? Is God not powerful enough to make this come to pass??? Of course He is, but if He makes people repent, then we do not have free will.

"For many are called, but few chosen." (Matthew 20:16).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"If we cease to believe, we cease to accept Salvation."

Amen!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"The verse that you quoted has already been fulfilled." - Kevin

I quote myself again: "So, those people died and Christ rose them up on the last day.. of.... August.. or.... ?? .. "

"It is possible to be called, and lost." - Kevin

Not according to Jesus, who will raise ALL that the Father has given him on the Last Day.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

I wish I could provide Scriptures as quickly as you, Kevin. I have to rely on memory of my teachings and readings. That's what I admire about you guys (David and you), you all are fast!

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2004.

I wrote, "The verse that you quoted has already been fulfilled."

To which David replied, "I quote myself again: "So, those people died and Christ rose them up on the last day.. of.... August.. or.... ?? .."

Here is the fulfillment of the verse that I stated above:

John 18:8-10, "8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

I wrote, "It is possible to be called, and lost."

To which David replied, "Not according to Jesus, who will raise ALL that the Father has given him on the Last Day."

In a sense you are correct David "all" will be raised on the "Last Day" for God says in John 5:28-29, "28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"Here is the fulfillment of the verse that I stated above:" - Kevin

Right, I quote myself again: "So, those people died and Christ rose them up on the last day.. of.... August.. or.... ?? .. "

I refer you back to this passage.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life.

All that the Fathers draws shall come to Jesus, and WILL be raised on the last day.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

Rod,

Thanks for your kind words. A PC bible program works wonders... That is the easy part...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

David,

Everyone will be raised on the lasts day as I stated above in my last post.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

Oops, I mean "last" not "lasts"... it is getting late...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 06, 2004.

"Everyone will be raised on the lasts day as I stated above in my last post."

No, they won't.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2004.

I wrote, "Everyone will be raised on the last day as I stated above in my last post."

To which David replied, "No, they won't."

Who is calling Jesus a liar now???

Did Jesus say in in John 5:28-29, "28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Which part of all do you not understand David???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

I am not calling Jesus a liar, you were. I believe those that are drawn by the Father are raised by Jesus on the last day, just like the bible says.

That leades to the next question, are all drawn by the Father?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

David wrote, "I am not calling Jesus a liar, you were."

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it however it does not agree with the word of God.

David wrote, "I believe those that are drawn by the Father are raised by Jesus on the last day, just like the bible says."

And I showed you from the Bible that you really do not know what you are talking about.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

"That is your opinion and you are entitled to it however it does not agree with the word of God."

And this is your opinion as you did nothing to back it up. It's just another assertion.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

Does God command all men to repent???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

It was no assertion David, go back and re-read what I wrote.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

"And I showed you from the Bible that you really do not know what you are talking about."

Really? You do not take Jesus' words to heart. Your argument is not with David Ortiz, but Jesus Christ himself!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

Does ought imply can?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

"Really? You do not take Jesus' words to heart. Your argument is not with David Ortiz, but Jesus Christ himself!"

I have no argument with Jesus, just your interpretation of Jesus words.

Quoting the same scripture over and over does not prove that your interpretation is correct.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

"Quoting the same scripture over and over does not prove that your interpretation is correct."

Agh, but it does when you do it?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

What I meant by quoting the same scripture over and over does not prove your point was that you did not offer any other scriptures other than those in John chapter 6.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

David,

It is obvious that we can continue to go back and forth on this and you have not presented enough evidence to change my mind and it appears that no matter what I post you are not going to change your mind.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

Yes, there are other passages, but I won't bring them up just yet.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

Well, you really can't deal with John 6 can you Kevin? All you have done is bring scriptures to contradict Jesus' Words. I have not done my best to explain them yet, as it's late and I'm tired of PT.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

Dear Readers,

An error was pointed out. This is due to lack of clarification on my part. I have said many times in this thread that those who are Drawn By the Father "will be raised on the last day." This was the error I made.

As Kevin said,"Everyone will be raised on the last day..."

Yes, this is true, everyone will be raised on the last day for judgment. What I meant above in my previous posts is that only those Drawn By the Father will be raised to "everlasting life".

Previously I stated an illustration about Prooftexting.

Person A has his string of verses saying Jesus is only man. Person B has his string of verses saying Jesus is only God. We must harmonize Scripture, which is why both of these persons will have a very hard time trying to prove their position to someone who believes Jesus is the God-Man.

There is no debate to this, the Bible commands man to repent and believe, and likewise, the Bible says that man is dead in sin, and cannot not seek after God. How do we reconcile this?

This relates to the illustration I provided. Kevin believes "Jesus is only God" (Kevin does not believe this, this is only an illustration), so he will have a hard time proving that position to David who believes "Jesus is the God-Man".

The error made by Kevin (and Arminians) is that ought implies can. Just because we ought to do something doesn't mean we are able to do so. Take in consideration the 10 commandments; God said keep the commandments, but why would he say such a thing? Does that mean were are able to keep the 10 commandments? No, I only know of one person who did, and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus also command us to "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Does that mean we are able to become perfect? No, we must examine ourselves to see if we are truly like Christ and we will see how "all have fallen short of the Glory of God". Those that claim we can be "perfect", go up to them and punch them in the nose and see what happens then. You will see my point.

I understand man's nature, and his spiritual death after Adam's fall.

This is what Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote about Man and his spiritual condition before regeneration:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes."

There are many other passages like Ephesians 2, Romans 9, etc, that speak about Man's condition and his inablity to do those things pleasing to God.

So why does the Bible command us to repent and believe, etc.??

James White explains this well:

"Why have such invitations and calls for repnetance if, in fact, God must first free the slave frm the dungeon of sin? Because a slave, once set free, is still in need of direction as to what to do and where to go. Those passages serve two functions: For the believer they serve to give light and direction, assurance of God's acceptance, and guidance in the path of righteousness. For the unbeliever they show the power of sin and the fact that no man, outside of God's enablement, will even desire to do what is right in God's sight."

In reply to the Judas post attempting to refute Christ's words:

Judas was chosen to apostleship and to the role of His betrayer, not unto salvation. Saying that any of those given by the Father to the Son can ultimately be lost, is saying that Christ can fail to do the will of the Father. Judas was also called the "son of perdition". Where in the Bible are we told that Judas was "given" to Christ in the same way Jesus refers to his elect in John 6?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2004.

As I have stated before, in the parable of the sower in Luke chapter 11 it is possible for those who were called to be lost.

Man is not totally depraved, only partially so. If man was totally depraved, he would not be able to come to faith in God without external help, i.e. your direct operation of the Holy Spirit. Man is not totally depraved for if he were, then the word of God would not be sufficient of itself to produce faith.

If we were to accept the doctrine of total depravity (as David has), we would have to accept the following points which are contrary to scripture.

1. That God is a respector of persons, He is partial. According to Calvinism no one can choose to do good or respond to God's call to repent except those that God enables to do so. Since God enables some people and not others, He is biased and shows favoritism. Is God partial??? (See Acts 10:34-35).

2. That God wants some people to be lost. According to David and Calvinism, only those that God decides to save are enabled by God to respond to the gospel. All the rest are incapable of choosing good or of responding to the gospel. Therefore, it is God, and God alone, who decides who will be saved or lost. Since many are going to be lost, then it is because God decides that He wants it that way. The scriptures make it clear that God wants all people to be saved, and that the choice is up to us, not God. (See 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9).

3. That man does not have free will. Calvinists (like David) say that we do have the power of choice, but we can only choose to do evil that is unless we have a direct operation of the Holy Spirit.

This is nonsense.

If the choice is between two things and you can't have one of them, that's no choice at all. This theory makes the hundreds of passages in the Bible which call upon us to choose between right and wrong to be meaningless gibberish. (See Ezekiel 18:30-32).

I am not refuting the words of Christ as David alleges, merely pointing out that the passage in John chapter 6 has been fulfilled and this is the passage:

John 18:8-10, "8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 07, 2004.

<"Is God's will thwarted by human free will?" A better question to ask is, "Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God??? >

This really doesn't answer the question now does it? A simple yes or no would have been fine.

<"Is God's will limited by human free will?" A better question to ask is, "Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???

This still doesn't answer the question but completely ignores it and is filled with misrepresentations of Calvinism. A simple yes or no would have been fine.>

<"Can God fail at anything He intends to do?" No, His word will not come back void. (Isaiah 55:11). >

You seem to believe Christ can fail to accomplish what he said when he states,"I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life.

<"If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?" Yes, otherwise it is not free will. Does God impose His will over our own will??? If He does, where is the scripture(s) that prove this is the case??? >

Ohhhhh....man......seriously.......dude..........man.....you got some real problems. Read Isaiah 10 :)

where is the scripture to support the libertarian free will view? I find that Scripture supports the Compatibilist free will view, not the Libertarian view.

These questions will determine how much we differ in foundational fews.

1)Do you believe that, God learns?
2)Do you believe that, God can make mistakes? For example, can God believe one thing will happen, and it does not?
3)Do you believe that, God changes His mind?
4)Is God all knowing about the future or not?
5)Is God existing in the future or not?
6)Is God limited to the present or not?
7)The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). If this is so, then how did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified?

This in reality is where our doctrines are based on, which really makes other discussions on baptism/end times/salvation impossible since the foundations differ.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

As to the parable of the sower, I doubt you'll do this anyways since you've made up your mind, but there are people than can explain it better than I can.

Spurgeon is one of them:

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/sower.htm

Martin Luther is another:

http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/sermons/sower.html

You can read those sermons.

All I can add is, does this parable change Christ's Words? Does this parable make Christ a failure? (You have already said they were "called" and lost, which is totally contradictory to what Christ said in John 6, so you have made him a liar already) Christ himself said that All that are Drawn by the Father he himself will raise on the last day to eternal life. Does the Father draw all? I don't believe so. But I just won't say Christ can fail to accomplish the will of the Father or bring up scriptures to contradict his own words.

Oh...but:

<"I am not refuting the words of Christ as David alleges, merely pointing out that the passage in John chapter 6 has been fulfilled and this is the passage: John 18:8-10, "8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."">

"So, those people died and Christ rose them up on the last day.. of.... August.. or.... ?? .. ".

<"As I have stated before, in the parable of the sower in Luke chapter 11 it is possible for those who were called to be lost.">

I believe what Christ said, not what Kevin Walker said.

<"Man is not totally depraved, only partially so.">

You must remember by totally depraved we do not believe it means utterly depraved.

<"...God is a respector of persons, He is partial.">

I point you back to Romans 9:13, Was God's Love in that verse conditional or unconditional? (I have asked you this a couple of times and have received no answer, only decoys)

Also, partiality is God looking "into the future" to see something inherent in an individual and then choosing them. That is being "partial" because God is picking someone because of something in them.

I really do not believe you would be saying this if you knew what we really taught rather than the misconceptions you read online. Remember the "U" in TULIP? Unconditional means simply that, unconditional. If you'd really take the time to study someone's beliefs you wouldn't have to waste my time having to explain this.

<"That man does not have free will.">

I never said man does not have a will. We believe man has a will, we just don't believe it's libertarian free will. Man's "free will" is limited by his nature. I can't run 60 miles per hour, no matter how much I "will" it, because it's not in my nature. I can't fly like a bird because I "will" it, because it's not in my nature to fly. Likewise, the natural man has a will, but is limited by his nature.

This is the natural man's nature as describe by the Bible: He cannot understand spiritual things, He is dead in sins, He is a hater of God, He is full of evil, and He is a slave of sin.

<"If man was totally depraved, he would not be able to come to faith in God without external help, i.e. your direct operation of the Holy Spirit.">

That is exactly what Jesus said. "No man can come to me.." John 6:44

<"This is nonsense.">

To the natural man, yes it is "nonsense". Which is why in John 6, a crowd of 5,000 was trimmed down to only 12, and one of them was called the devil.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

"44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Where does it state in this verse that those who are raised up will be saved???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

If you read the context, you will see ;)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

I wrote, "Is God's will thwarted by human free will?" A better question to ask is, "Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God???"

To which David replied, "This really doesn't answer the question now does it? A simple yes or no would have been fine."

I did answer the question, you just did not like my response.

I wrote, "Is God's will limited by human free will?" A better question to ask is, "Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???"

To which David replied, "This still doesn't answer the question but completely ignores it and is filled with misrepresentations of Calvinism. A simple yes or no would have been fine."

Again, I did answer the question however David did not like my answer. Please also notice that David did not answer the question that I asked of him.

I wrote, "Can God fail at anything He intends to do?" No, His word will not come back void. (Isaiah 55:11)."

To which David replied, "You seem to believe Christ can fail to accomplish what he said when he states,"I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me ; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life."

Not at all!!! I never said that Christ can fail to accomplish what He said. Is it possible for some to resist the words of God or the words of Christ or the words of the Holy Spirit??? If the answer to this question is yes (and it is), then David really does not know what he is talking about.

I wrote, "If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?" Yes, otherwise it is not free will. Does God impose His will over our own will??? If He does, where is the scripture(s) that prove this is the case???"

To which David replied, "Ohhhhh....man......seriously.......dude..........man.....you got some real problems. Read Isaiah 10 :)"

I read Isaiah chapter 10 and nothing in this chapter states that God imposes His will over our own will. God does not force people to obey Him. God gives us a choice, if we obey we are blessed, if we do not obey we are cursed.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

Please answer questions 1-7. This discussion cannot go on any further if you don't.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

David says that he believes the words of Christ but in fact he is a liar. If David really believed the words of Christ then he would believe that baptism is "for the remission of sins" exactly as the Bible states.

David wrote, "All I can add is, does this parable change Christ's Words? Does this parable make Christ a failure? (You have already said they were "called" and lost, which is totally contradictory to what Christ said in John 6, so you have made him a liar already)"

No, what I posted does not contradict the words of Christ if you see that the words that He spoke have already been fulfilled.

David wrote, "Christ himself said that All that are Drawn by the Father he himself will raise on the last day to eternal life."

Okay David, please show where this passage states that they will be raised "to eternal life"??? You are adding to the word of God. This passage states they will be raised on the last day and nothing about eternal life is stated or implied in this passage of scripture.

David wrote, "Does the Father draw all? I don't believe so. But I just won't say Christ can fail to accomplish the will of the Father or bring up scriptures to contradict his own words."

Of course the Father draws everyone. Does He wish anyone to be lost??? Not at all. Go back and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4. I have not brought up any scriptures that contradict the words of Christ.

I wrote, "I am not refuting the words of Christ as David alleges, merely pointing out that the passage in John chapter 6 has been fulfilled and this is the passage: John 18:8-10, "8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

To which David replied, "So, those people died and Christ rose them up on the last day.. of.... August.. or.... ?? .. "

Again you misunderstand that passage.

I wrote, "As I have stated before, in the parable of the sower in Luke chapter 11 it is possible for those who were called to be lost."

To which David replied, "I believe what Christ said, not what Kevin Walker said."

Actually David believes what some denomination preacher told him, not Jesus Christ.

I wrote, "Man is not totally depraved, only partially so."

To which David replied, "You must remember by totally depraved we do not believe it means utterly depraved."

You state that man cannot come to God without a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit", it one is not totally depraved and unable to come to God of his own free will, then this one is "totally depraved".

I wrote, "...God is a respector of persons, He is partial."

To which David replied, "I point you back to Romans 9:13, Was God's Love in that verse conditional or unconditional? (I have asked you this a couple of times and have received no answer, only decoys)"

Do you answer all of my questions David???

David wrote, "Also, partiality is God looking "into the future" to see something inherent in an individual and then choosing them. That is being "partial" because God is picking someone because of something in them."

God does not choose who will be saved and who will not be saved. We are the ones who decide whether or not we will obey God and be saved.

David wrote, "I really do not believe you would be saying this if you knew what we really taught rather than the misconceptions you read online. Remember the "U" in TULIP? Unconditional means simply that, unconditional. If you'd really take the time to study someone's beliefs you wouldn't have to waste my time having to explain this."

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black??? I have taken the time to study the doctrines of Calvinism and they are not in accordance with the word of God. If you would read the word of God without any denomination bias, you would also see that these doctrines are false.

I wrote, "That man does not have free will."

To which David replied, "I never said man does not have a will. We believe man has a will, we just don't believe it's libertarian free will. Man's "free will" is limited by his nature. I can't run 60 miles per hour, no matter how much I "will" it, because it's not in my nature. I can't fly like a bird because I "will" it, because it's not in my nature to fly. Likewise, the natural man has a will, but is limited by his nature."

Actually the doctrine of "irresistable grace" absolves man of his own free will. If God sends the Holy Spirit and man cannot accept or reject this call, then man does not have free will.

David wrote, "This is the natural man's nature as describe by the Bible: He cannot understand spiritual things, He is dead in sins, He is a hater of God, He is full of evil, and He is a slave of sin."

Actually man can understand the Bible. Would God make something so hard to understand that He has to send His Spirit to ensure that we are able to do His will??? I think not...

I wrote, "If man was totally depraved, he would not be able to come to faith in God without external help, i.e. your direct operation of the Holy Spirit."

To which David replied, "That is exactly what Jesus said. "No man can come to me.." John 6:44"

Does we have access to the New Testament??? If so, then we can be saved. How does one get faith???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

"Do you answer all of my questions David???" - Kevin

I answer the relevant ones that need to be answered.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

Ok, time to start slicing and dicing...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

"I did answer the question, you just did not like my response." - Kevin

Let's see if this is true:

I asked,"Is God's will thwarted by human free will?"

Kevin responded: "A better question to ask is, "Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God???"

In reality, my question wasn't answered. He did say that the direct operation of the Holy Spirit violates our free will, but I asked if God's will is thwarted by human free will? There is no answer, only a decoy question that is based on an assumption (libertarian free will).

"Again, I did answer the question however David did not like my answer. Please also notice that David did not answer the question that I asked of him." - Kevin

Let's see if this is true:

I asked,"Is God's will limited by human free will?"

Kevin responded: "A better question to ask is, "Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???"

Again, the question was avoided. A decoy question not relevant to my question was thrown in the end, and I get accused for ignoring it. Again he says the direct operation of the Holy Spirit violates free will. There is no answer to my question, only the decoy at the end and the straw-man argument "Calvinism makes people robots". No Calvinist teaches man is a robot.

"Not at all!!! I never said that Christ can fail to accomplish what He said. Is it possible for some to resist the words of God or the words of Christ or the words of the Holy Spirit??? If the answer to this question is yes (and it is), then David really does not know what he is talking about." - Kevin

Let's see if this is true:

I wrote,"You seem to believe Christ can fail to accomplish what he said when he states,"I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me ; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life."

Kevin writes earlier, which is contrary to what Christ taught.

"These people were called, but they did not believe." (sower)
"These were called, and fell away."(sower)
"These were called, brought no fruit to maturity and were lost."(sower)
"It is possible to be called, and lost.(Judas)"
"Ananias and...Sapphira...were called and yet lost."

The readers can judge who said what. I just remind them that these are the words of Jesus Christ:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

His last statments show that he is the one who really does not know what he is talking about. If he knew anything about the doctrine of "Irresistable Grace", he wouldn't be implying irrelevant passagaes such as Acts 7:51 I don't have time to do people's homework. If you study if on your own you will see. An excellent cite that has dozens of articles on this topic is www.mongergism.com

"Okay David, please show where this passage states that they will be raised "to eternal life"??? You are adding to the word of God. This passage states they will be raised on the last day and nothing about eternal life is stated or implied in this passage of scripture." - Kevin

It's there. But this is how John 6 looks to you. So, if you're reading your bible like that of course you won't see it.

John 6

1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

[Pardon the length]

"Of course the Father draws everyone. Does He wish anyone to be lost??? Not at all. Go back and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4. I have not brought up any scriptures that contradict the words of Christ."

Well, you sure did push the parable and Judas alot in order to say John 6 doesn't mean what it says. Please, explain away 1 Timothy 2:1-4 for us. I see no contradiction, only that you, at the cost of libertarian free will, will have Christ interceding for those in hell.

"Again you misunderstand that passage." - Kevin

Because....you....say...so? This is just an assertion on your part, it just proves nothing and lacks substance.

John 6 is not the only place where this is said. A look in Romans 8; "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Again, those who are called, are justified, then glorfified.

John 10:25-30; Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

These John 6 and John 10 passages are very similiar indeed.

"Actually David believes what some denomination preacher told him, not Jesus Christ." - Kevin

Really now? I'm not the one who went on a crusade trying to prove Christ wrong in the first place!

"You state that man cannot come to God without a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit", it one is not totally depraved and unable to come to God of his own free will, then this one is "totally depraved"." - Kevin

I was replying to a argument that commonly comes up when the otherside tries to re-define someones own doctrine. Like saying Papal Infalibility means the Pope is sinless by re-defining infallible to mean sinless. Once again, I do not state man cannot come to God, Jesus Christ does.

"Do you answer all of my questions David???" - Kevin

Yes I do. I believe I know why you can't answer this question, and it's not because you don't want to, it's because it defeats your flat-out contrary position. And if you wnat to know "how" it does, answer it then you will find out.

"God does not choose who will be saved and who will not be saved. We are the ones who decide whether or not we will obey God and be saved." - Kevin

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13, AKA The Word of God

"I have taken the time to study the doctrines of Calvinism and they are not in accordance with the word of God." - Kevin

If you did, you'd know better than to say we make God partial.

"Actually the doctrine of "irresistable grace" absolves man of his own free will. If God sends the Holy Spirit and man cannot accept or reject this call, then man does not have free will." - Kevin

I have asked you for the Scriptural support for Libertarian free will. I doubt you'll find it. I find that Scripture support the Compatibilist free will view.

"Actually man can understand the Bible. Would God make something so hard to understand that He has to send His Spirit to ensure that we are able to do His will??? I think not..." - Kevin

You do realize that is contrary to Scripture right?

1 Corinthians 2:14; But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Eunuch in Acts 8, why couldn't he understand the Word? He had the scriptures right there in his hand. Why coudln't he understand it? Why did he need Philip, a man filled with the Holy Spirit to explain these things to him?

He had the word of God right there, he knew how to read. Since the Word of God is all suffieicet, and all poweful, and all alive by itself, it could have (according to you) accomplished it's purpose, BUT IT DIDN'T.

Do you know why he couldn't understand it? Because he was spiritually dead. And yes, Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

I wrote, "I did answer the question, you just did not like my response."

To which David replied "Let's see if this is true: I asked,"Is God's will thwarted by human free will? Kevin responded: "A better question to ask is, "Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God???" In reality, my question wasn't answered. He did say that the direct operation of the Holy Spirit violates our free will, but I asked if God's will is thwarted by human free will? There is no answer, only a decoy question that is based on an assumption (libertarian free will)."

The truth of the matter is I did answer the question by stating "a better question to ask" and then answered this question. I am sorry if you don't like how I responded to your question.

I wrote, "Again, I did answer the question however David did not like my answer. Please also notice that David did not answer the question that I asked of him."

To which David replied, "Let's see if this is true: I asked,"Is God's will limited by human free will?" Kevin responded: "A better question to ask is, "Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???" Again, the question was avoided. A decoy question not relevant to my question was thrown in the end, and I get accused for ignoring it. Again he says the direct operation of the Holy Spirit violates free will. There is no answer to my question, only the decoy at the end and the straw-man argument "Calvinism makes people robots". No Calvinist teaches man is a robot."

Again, the truth of the matter is I did answer the question by stating "a better question to ask" and then answered this question. I am sorry if you don't like how I responded to your question. I wrote, "Not at all!!! I never said that Christ can fail to accomplish what He said. Is it possible for some to resist the words of God or the words of Christ or the words of the Holy Spirit??? If the answer to this question is yes (and it is), then David really does not know what he is talking about."

To which David replied, "Let's see if this is true: I wrote,"You seem to believe Christ can fail to accomplish what he said when he states,Then he quotes John 6:35-48.

Please notice that all David did not state how I am guilty of saying that "Christ can fail to accomplish what He said" in my earlier post. David claims that once one is in Christ they cannot be lost however this doctrine can also not be found in the word of God. Please also notice that David did not answer my question: " Is it possible for some to resist the words of God or the words of Christ or the words of the Holy Spirit???"

David wrote, "Kevin writes earlier, which is contrary to what Christ taught. "These people were called, but they did not believe." (sower) "These were called, and fell away."(sower) "These were called, brought no fruit to maturity and were lost."(sower) "It is possible to be called, and lost.(Judas)" "Ananias and...Sapphira...were called and yet lost."

Let David explain how what I wrote is "contrary to what Christ taught"??? Were these people called??? Were they lost??? Please notice that Jesus said in John 15:2, "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;" which is exactly what Luke 8:14 (the parable of the sower) states. How is it possible to be "in Me" (in Christ) and not be a Christian??? It is obvious that what David teaches is contrary to the words of Christ.

David wrote, "The readers can judge who said what. I just remind them that these are the words of Jesus Christ: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Again, David takes this to mean that those who come to the Father will be saved however please notice readers that this verse speaks absolutely nothing about salvation. The text states that "I will raise him up at the last day".

David wrote, "His last statments show that he is the one who really does not know what he is talking about. If he knew anything about the doctrine of "Irresistable Grace", he wouldn't be implying irrelevant passagaes such as Acts 7:51 I don't have time to do people's homework. If you study if on your own you will see. An excellent cite that has dozens of articles on this topic is www.mongergism.com"

So now passages that disprove his doctrine of irresistible grace are now "irrelevant". Please notice how David wants to "pick and choose" which verses one is to use. This is typical of those false teachers who try to turn people away from the truth. If the Jews in the Old Testament were able to resist the Holy Spirit, then those today who claim a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" can be rejected as well. If not why not???

I wrote, "Okay David, please show where this passage states that they will be raised "to eternal life"??? You are adding to the word of God. This passage states they will be raised on the last day and nothing about eternal life is stated or implied in this passage of scripture."

To which David replied, "It's there. But this is how John 6 looks to you. So, if you're reading your bible like that of course you won't see it. "

Then he crossed out some verses that he thinks that I am not reading. I could do the same thing with his faith alone theology but what would that prove???

I wrote, "Of course the Father draws everyone. Does He wish anyone to be lost??? Not at all. Go back and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4. I have not brought up any scriptures that contradict the words of Christ."

To which David replied, "Well, you sure did push the parable and Judas alot in order to say John 6 doesn't mean what it says."

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black when you cross out "and be baptized" from Mark 16:16 and other verses that you do not like that prove that one must be baptized in order to be saved.

David wrote, "Please, explain away 1 Timothy 2:1-4 for us. I see no contradiction, only that you, at the cost of libertarian free will, will have Christ interceding for those in hell."

David accuses me of saying that I will have "Christ interceding for those in hell." which is not the truth. God desires all men to be saved, not only the elect few who have a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" as David believes.

I wrote, "Again you misunderstand that passage."

To which David replied, "Because....you....say...so? This is just an assertion on your part, it just proves nothing and lacks substance."

Not because I say so, because God says this is the case as the fulfillment of this passage has already been accomplished.

David wrote, "John 6 is not the only place where this is said. A look in Romans 8; "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

This does not mean that God only calls an elect few and those are the only people who will be saved. God "predestinated" people in offering them salvation. God does not pick and choose that some will go to hell and others go to heaven. He leaves the choice up to each of us individually. There is no partiality with God.

David wrote, "Again, those who are called, are justified, then glorfified."

Again, as stated numerous times in the New Testament it is possible for one to fall from being a Christian. David claims a Christian can never fall however this doctrine cannot be found in the word of God.

David wrote, "John 10:25-30; Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Is it possible for a sheep to stray??? Of course it is and this is exactly what James 5:19-20 teaches, "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth (how can someone wander from someplace they have never been???), and someone turns them back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

If a Christian cannot be lost, then the devil has been wasting his time for 2,00 years. 1 Peter 5:8 states, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."

I wrote, "Actually David believes what some denomination preacher told him, not Jesus Christ."

To which David replied, "Really now? I'm not the one who went on a crusade trying to prove Christ wrong in the first place! "

Sorry David, I am proving you wrong, not Christ.

I wrote, "You state that man cannot come to God without a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit", it one is not totally depraved and unable to come to God of his own free will, then this one is "totally depraved"."

To which David replied, "I was replying to a argument that commonly comes up when the otherside tries to re-define someones own doctrine. Like saying Papal Infalibility means the Pope is sinless by re-defining infallible to mean sinless. Once again, I do not state man cannot come to God, Jesus Christ does."

Actually your Calvinistic doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that that man is totally depraved not God nor Jesus Christ. God says in Ephesians 5:17, "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is." According to David one cannot do this without a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" however one will find that they can ready the Bible and know what they must do in order to be saved without any direct operation.

I wrote, "Do you answer all of my questions David???"

To which David replied, "Yes I do. I believe I know why you can't answer this question, and it's not because you don't want to, it's because it defeats your flat-out contrary position. And if you wnat to know "how" it does, answer it then you will find out."

Actually David you pick and choose which questions you want to answer and this is what you stated in an earlier post. If you want me to, I can go back and quote all of the questions that I have asked that have gone unanswered and we will see if you are telling the truth.

I wrote, "God does not choose who will be saved and who will not be saved. We are the ones who decide whether or not we will obey God and be saved."

To which David replied, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13, AKA The Word of God"

Please notice that it is "as many as received him" are those who will be saved. God does not choose who will be saved, if He did then man would not have any say in the matter.

I wrote, "I have taken the time to study the doctrines of Calvinism and they are not in accordance with the word of God."

To which David replied, "If you did, you'd know better than to say we make God partial."

Who is trying to prove that the call of God is "irresistable"??? Since you are trying to prove this doctrine, then you are saying that man does not have any choice in the matter.

I wrote, "Actually the doctrine of "irresistable grace" absolves man of his own free will. If God sends the Holy Spirit and man cannot accept or reject this call, then man does not have free will."

To which David replied, "I have asked you for the Scriptural support for Libertarian free will. I doubt you'll find it. I find that Scripture support the Compatibilist free will view."

David seems to think that there is a difference in free will views. Is this true??? The only correct free will view is that man has a choice when it comes to salvation, otherwise it is no choice at all.

I wrote, "Actually man can understand the Bible. Would God make something so hard to understand that He has to send His Spirit to ensure that we are able to do His will??? I think not..."

To which David replied, "You do realize that is contrary to Scripture right? 1 Corinthians 2:14; But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Actually that is not contrary to Scripture as David would have everyone believe.

Brother Alexander Campbell gave a far better explanation of these verses than I could even hope to accomplish:

"Let it, then, be distinctly noticed, from all these premises that these gifts had for their object, first, the revelation of the whole Christian doctrine; and secondly, the confirmation of it; and without them no man could either have known the truth or believed it. To this effect does the apostle reason, 1 Cor. ii. 9-16. He shews that none of the princes, legislators, or wise men of Judea, Greece, or Rome, ever could, by all their faculties, have discovered the hidden wisdom, "which God had determined, before the Mosaic dispensation began, should be spoken to the honor of the apostles, gifted by the Holy Spirit. " For so it was written, "eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and into the heart of man (before the apostles) those things have not entered, which God prepared for them who love him. But God has revealed them (those unseen, unheard and unknown things) to us (the apostles) by His Spirit-which things (before unknown, unheard, and unseen,) also we (apostles) speak (to you gentiles and Jews, that you may know them) not in words taught by human wisdom, (in Judea, Greece, or Rome) but in words taught by the Holy Spirit, explaining spiritual things with spiritual words. " "Now, an animal man, (whether a prince, a philosopher, a legislator, or a rhetorician, in Judea, Greece or Rome by means of all arts and sciences) receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, (by all of his faculties and attainments) because they are spiritually examines" (by the light which revelation and not reason affords). "But the spiritual man (the man possessed of a supernatural gift) examines, indeed, all things; yet he cannot be examined by any animal man (because such cannot judge of the principles suggested to him by the spirit;) for what man (who is merely animal) has known the mind of the Lord, (his deep designs respecting Jews and Gentiles, now made know to us apostles,) who will (or can) instruct him (the spiritual man.) But we (apostles) have the mind of Christ, " and are able to instruct your spiritual men with all their gifts. O! You Corinthians! How has this beautiful passage been perverted by system into a meaning the most remote from the mind of the Spirit!

I continue with a response from brother Lee Saffold:

"I believe that anyone reading Brother Campbell's remarks above can see that all of these passages, this one especially, are related to the time when revelation was being given directly to men. And that they are designed to show the distinction between those who taught the truth by "inspiration of the Holy Spirit", and the ones who claimed to be teachers but were not inspired by the spirit. There is a world of difference between the natural man using his natural reason to know things and the natural man who is inspired by the spirit of God and has the truth revealed directly to him. The former can never know anything that God has not revealed to him concerning what God will is. And the latter is the only one that could ever have know the truth simply because God revealed it to him. And others were given evidence through the miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit that God had revealed his mind or will to them. Thus the "man without the spirit" is without question in this verse talking about the "uninspired" man who had not received any revelation from God.

It is a monumental mistake to say that the natural man is the sinner who has a copy of the New Testament to read and cannot understand what he reads without the direct operation of the Holy Spirit.

This is the doctrine of Calvin, not the Apostles.

For the New Testament is the expression of the will of God to man after it had been revealed to the apostles and he can, without any direct aid from the Holy Spirit, understand it. In fact it was given through the apostles and written in language so that the mind of God could be revealed to us. Without these revelations of the Holy Spirit that were confirmed as being from God by the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven we would, as the Ephesians in Acts 19:1-6 not even know that there was a Holy Spirit. We have the inspired word of God revealed for the very purpose of leading and guiding us to do the will of God. His word has been revealed and confirmed through those who had the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven. And the Holy Spirit is guiding us today through those inspired, revealed, and confirmed words of God. (Mark 16:17-20; Hebrews 2:3-4)."

David wrote, "The Eunuch in Acts 8, why couldn't he understand the Word? He had the scriptures right there in his hand. Why coudln't he understand it? Why did he need Philip, a man filled with the Holy Spirit to explain these things to him? He had the word of God right there, he knew how to read. Since the Word of God is all suffieicet, and all poweful, and all alive by itself, it could have (according to you) accomplished it's purpose, BUT IT DIDN'T. Do you know why he couldn't understand it? Because he was spiritually dead. And yes, Faith comes by hearing the Word of God."

I have already explained this to you once before concerning the Eunuch in Acts chapter 8. "This is because at that time the word of God was spoken "orally", they did not have the completed New Testament and God spoke through the apostles."

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 08, 2004.

"I can go back and quote all of the questions that I have asked that have gone unanswered and we will see if you are telling the truth."

Alright, list them. If I answer them would you then answer questions 1-7?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

I have tried to answer as many questions on this thread, and I've even gone back to get extra ones I missed.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

David,

I made this statement "I can go back and quote all of the questions that I have asked that have gone unanswered and we will see if you are telling the truth."

Because you chastised me for not answering your questions, when you stated in response to my question:

"Do you answer all of my questions David???"

"I answer the relevant ones that need to be answered." - David

I try to answer all questions, but I do not always succeed.

I am not going to go back and re-post the questions that you missed this time nor do I have any inclination to answer your questions 1-7.

If you want to end our conversation because I will not answer those questions, that is your prerogative.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

I never said I was going to end this discussion. It just will be helpful to discuss the soveriegnty of God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

Oh, okay...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

In John 6:44 when Jesus says "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him", in the next verse he says "Every one who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." In John 6:63 Jesus says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe."

It is through the words of the gospel (Romans 1:16) that God tries to perform heart surgery on us, not through some unexplained direct operation of the Holy Spirit. When a person hears the gospel, some respond and others do not. The blame is not upon God, but upon the individual who chooses to believe or disbelieve. (See Romans 10:8-17). Faith comes by hearing the word of God and deciding to believe it and act upon that belief, not by any mysterious direct act of God.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), August 08, 2004.

"Yes, it would change what Jesus said. Maybe not His words, but it would change the meaning of modern(relative) doctrines such as Calvinism." - rod

rod, sorry to burst your bubble, but this doctrine can be traced back to Jesus Christ, St. Paul, St. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, James White, ... Whose view is really "modern" ?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

It is only the doctrine that Jesus taught that is of any concern. St. Paul and St. James are merely sounding boards, not makers. Maybe White and the ones you mentioned should include their epistles in the Holy Bible? That's if they too are merely sounding boards, but I'm not convinced that they are.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 08, 2004.

Luther was confused about St. James and "works". Calvin was confused about "free will". Anyway, why should a believer call himself, "Lutheran" or "Calvinist"? I think "Christian" would get to the exact source.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 08, 2004.

Kevin said earlier in reply to my question,"A better question to ask is, "Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God???"

Kevin continued,"The truth of the matter is I did answer the question by stating "a better question to ask" and then answered this question. I am sorry if you don't like how I responded to your question."

Ok, so I won't get called on again for ignoring questions I'll answer your original reply:

Kevin asked,"Does a direct operation of the Holy Spirit interfere with our free will??" If yes, then we do not have free will to choose whether or not we want to serve God. Does faith come by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit of through the word of God???"

A better question to ask is, How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Kevin said earlier in reply to my questions, "A better question to ask is, "Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???"

Kevin continued,"Again, the truth of the matter is I did answer the question by stating "a better question to ask" and then answered this question. I am sorry if you don't like how I responded to your question."

Ok, as I said above I will answer your question so I won't get called on for it again:

Kevin asked,"Does God impose His will over ours by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit??? If yes, then we are nothing but robots and God did not create robots. Is salvation conditional???"

A better question to ask is, Should Vegetarians eat animal crackers?

"Please notice that all David did not state how I am guilty of saying that "Christ can fail to accomplish what He said" in my earlier post. David claims that once one is in Christ they cannot be lost however this doctrine can also not be found in the word of God. Please also notice that David did not answer my question: " Is it possible for some to resist the words of God or the words of Christ or the words of the Holy Spirit???" - Kevin

Ok now, this is very simple. Christ said those that ALL who are drawn by the Father will be raised on the last day unto eternal life. Kevin said that some can be drawn by the Father and not be raised on the last day unto eternal life. Nowhere in John 6 will you find this other group Kevin makes up ("drawn but lost" group). Is Christ a failure, I don't think so. I also did answer your last question until further down the post.

"Let David explain how what I wrote is "contrary to what Christ taught"??? Were these people called??? Were they lost??? Please notice that Jesus said in John 15:2, "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;" which is exactly what Luke 8:14 (the parable of the sower) states. How is it possible to be "in Me" (in Christ) and not be a Christian??? It is obvious that what David teaches is contrary to the words of Christ." - Kevin

I already gave you two links that can explain the parable of the sower in Luke 8 better than I can. It speaks of the Word of God and people's reactions.

1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. (NASB)

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (NASB)

The three who you think got "called" did not overcome the world. Only one did.

John 15:4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me. (NASB)

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/sower.htm [Spurgeon]

http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/sermons/sower.html [Luther]

"Again, David takes this to mean that those who come to the Father will be saved however please notice readers that this verse speaks absolutely nothing about salvation. The text states that "I will raise him up at the last day"." - Kevin

I already showed where in that passage it says eternal life. If you want to get technical you can say "It's not there", but in context that is what to it's refering too. Unless you are reading John 6 like I pointed out earlier, then of course you'll never find it. :) Why don't you prove from context that is DOES NOT mean eternal life. I think that would go better than just making assertions.

"So now passages that disprove his doctrine of irresistible grace are now "irrelevant". Please notice how David wants to "pick and choose" which verses one is to use. This is typical of those false teachers who try to turn people away from the truth. If the Jews in the Old Testament were able to resist the Holy Spirit, then those today who claim a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" can be rejected as well. If not why not???" - Kevin

There is no picking and choosing here. I just pointed out that such passages are irrelevant and have nothing to do with the doctrine of "irresistible grace". Of course, someone who doesn't know what the doctrine of irresistible grace is would make this error.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/irresistable.html

There is a short article that explains it somewhat.

"Then he crossed out some verses that he thinks that I am not reading. I could do the same thing with his faith alone theology but what would that prove???" - Kevin

Well, it's obvious you don't like John 6.

"Talk about the pot calling the kettle black when you cross out "and be baptized" from Mark 16:16 and other verses that you do not like that prove that one must be baptized in order to be saved."

Let's not get to far off subject now (Yes I know the thread is about baptism), but specifically this discussion came because you said ,"Do we bury people who are dead or alive???" I have already stated that our views on baptism will be different because of what our views on Sin, and God's Soveriegnty are. It is really useless to discuss things when our foundations differ. I wish I could come up with an illustration for this, but I can't at this moment.

"David accuses me of saying that I will have "Christ interceding for those in hell." which is not the truth. God desires all men to be saved, not only the elect few who have a "direct operation of the Holy Spirit" as David believes." - Kevin

Explain away the passage then. Show us what the context is.

Alright, this is all I can reply to today. Whew..

I'm reposting these:

1)Do you believe that, God learns?
2)Do you believe that, God can make mistakes? For example, can God believe one thing will happen, and it does not?
3)Do you believe that, God changes His mind?
4)Is God all knowing about the future or not?
5)Is God existing in the future or not?
6)Is God limited to the present or not?
7)The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). If this is so, then how did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified?

I believe they'll shed some light into something I've been suspecting for a while. Or Kevin can come out and tell us. Kevin, are you an Open Thiest?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

"A better question to ask is, How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

"A better question to ask is, Should Vegetarians eat animal crackers?"

Are these really better questions to ask readers??? You decide.

David will probably give another smart alec 5 year old response if I were to continue to reply to his posts as he did above. I am not going to waste my time responding to the rest of his post as it is obvious by his responses above that he really doesn't want to engage in a meaningful debate.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 08, 2004.

I answered your questions. I am sorry if you don't like how I responded to your questions.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

Ok, readers, other forum members, give us your input. I'm biased. So comments on this discussion would help.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.

This thread is now closed. The continuation can be found here.

-- (Christian_Moderator@hotmail.com), August 08, 2004.