Has anyone else seen the Dallas Morning News' front page series on the sexual abuse scandal. The series started on Sunday.

In effect it states that there are several Salesians of Don Bosco priests who are sexual abusers and have been moved internationally to avoid scandal.

The series is very critical of Cardinal Oscar Rodríguez. It quotes him several times. The quotes are to the effect that his role should not be reduced to that of a cop and that he would rather go to jail than harm any of his priests.

With an attitude like that, the Church will suffer.

We as members of the Roman Catholic Church need to put pressure on the bishops to get rid of bad priests and assist in the filing of criminal charges. PERIOD.

Moving priests for the sake of avoiding scandal has done extreme harm to the Church. It's a sin in itself and inexcuseable.

Any bishop who has done this needs to be defrocked.

It it seems that I'm angry, you're 100% correct.

Instead of giving a stupid bishop (Law) a ceremonial post, the Vatican needs to put their foot down.

If the Vatican can be hard line on rubrics, why can't they take care of a much larger, more serious issue?

Cardinal Rodriguez has been mentioned as a possible successor to Pope John Paul II. I pray not. That would tear the American Church wide open.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 22, 2004

Answers

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/0620 04dnproklep.275b904e1.html

Here is the link and hope I did it right. You have every right to be mad. If you read Goodbye, Good Men and Vatican II, Homosexuality & Pedophilia, you will not be surprised any more with what is going on. Sad to say, but it is true. We have a big mess out there and all we can do is pray AND know your faith. For parents out there, test your priest in the confessionals. You are not being sneaky by doing this, but we live in a time where you have to do this in order for their souls to not be damaged or lead astray.

God Bless,

Jalapeno

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), June 22, 2004.

jalepeno,

just to let you know, promoting materials which denounce vatican two and try to blame it for the current problems of the church is, i believe against the rules.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 22, 2004.

Just to let everyone know where I stand -- so there is no misunderstanding:

I love the Church. What I disagree with is the handling of bad priests by bishops and the handling of bad bishops by the Vatican.

I hope that the Holy Spirit is still in charge of the broom and just cleaning house.

God bless

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 22, 2004.

just to let you know, promoting materials which denounce vatican two and try to blame it for the current problems of the church is, i believe against the rules.

Sorry, but not promoting the books. Just stating some facts and sharing something that helped me understand why we have the problems we do. The moderator can delete my post if he likes.

I also love our Catholic Faith and hoping we see a big change here when it comes to the abuses.

God Bless,

Jalapeno

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), June 22, 2004.

Well seeing as the rest of you seem quite happy to see mud thrown at the whole Salesian order without protest, and some of you applaud it, I guess I'll have to point out what the media hatchet job OMITTED:

The Salesians are the third largest religious order in the world. Their particular charism is to work with adolescents. Naturally this tends to attract, among the tens of thousands of devoted Salesians, a very small number of people who would take advantage of adolescents. Religious orders like the Salesians move their members across international borders all the time, to go wherever the need is greatest. A few of these moves were subsequent to an allegation (often concerning alleged abuse many years earlier). A tiny number of these allegations have been proved. That's it. That's the tiny framework on which the media has built their whole massive demolition job on this wonderful order. No mention of the Salesians' countless man-hours of valuable work saving kids for Christ, saving them from drug abuse, homelessness, suicide, giving their lives meaning, SAVING THEM FROM ABUSE by their relatives or child prostitution. The order's superiors know some members are abusers and they are dealing with them, not in the way the media would like them to, but appropriately. Salesians, the 99+% of you who are innocent of any abuse, hold your heads high. "Blessed are you when they speak all kinds of calumny against you for my sake."

Jalapeno, what on earth do you mean by "For parents out there, test your priest in the confessionals. You are not being sneaky by doing this, but we live in a time where you have to do this in order for their souls to not be damaged or lead astray." ? You want parents to accompany their children into the confessional because you think a priest may abuse them in there??

Did you know that statistically the group LEAST likely to abuse children are Catholic priests? That is, if you had to leave your child in the custody of a strange man, your best probability of making sure the child is not abused is to make sure the man is a Catholic priest. But anyone who gets their info from the media (even most of the Catholic media) has exactly the opposite impression!

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 14, 2004.

You want parents to accompany their children into the confessional because you think a priest may abuse them in there??

***Giggling*** No Steve, that is not what I meant by saying you must test your priest. By testing ask them questions on certain sins and see how they answer. If you want me to give you a specific question or questions I have asked I will give them to you along with the answers I received from the priest. One out of four gave the right advice. :o( After finding one that gave the right advice that goes along with our Catholic teaching that is who I have my children go to and no I do not tag along. ;o)

God Bless,

Jalapeno

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 14, 2004.

Jalapeno, yes you better give me some specific examples of questions you ask. If you want to ask a priest hypothetical leading questions to test his orthodoxy, fine. But not if you mean telling lies about sins you have not committed to test his reaction. And definitely not “in the confessional”! That is not the place for “testing” anyone but yourself.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 14, 2004.

If you want to ask a priest hypothetical leading questions to test his orthodoxy, fine. But not if you mean telling lies about sins you have not committed to test his reaction. And definitely not “in the confessional”! That is not the place for “testing” anyone but yourself.

***Hmmm Don't play those games because I don't work that way. How old are you Steve and do you have any children? Here are a few of the questions I asked. What is your opinion on masturbation as in children doing this? Is it OK? What do you think of impure thoughts? Is it OK? What were some of the answers? I will give you the one that just about knocked me over. Buy your boys a Playboy magazine because it is very healthy for them to view this and masturbate. In the old days the Church would say this was a sin, but this has been proven wrong by psychologist. I for one can not quote the Bible, but we went back and forth in the confessional, I quoting the Bible. I then asked him if the psychologist were Catholic. He got mad and told me to turn him in to the Bishop. He even dared me (this priest works with college students and at a hospital). I did and the Bishop knew exactly who I was speaking of before I said his name. Sad. Aren't you glad you asked? I will go one step further with you. My 9yo son who knew nothing about sex and was spoken to in a manner that would make all of you ill. What was his confusion/confession? He wanted to marry his sister, cousin (girl) and best friend (male). Which one do you think the priest (different than the one above/playboy) latched on to and "counseled" him on? Yes, you guessed it. Told him about his "many" homosexuals friends and how it was OK to "love" and when he became a teenager he could choose which way he wanted to go. This is a 9 yo boy who thought sex was kissing for crying out loud! Know your faith and test your priest! As parents we have to make sure no one will damage them nor lead them astray and fill their heads with lies. It is our duty to make sure we do our best to give them all we can to make it to heaven. God trusted them to me and I will do my best to not fail Him.

God Bless,

Jalapeno

PS There is a silent abuse lurking in our Church that no one has spoken about, but it is happening daily in the confessionals.

-- Jalapeno (Jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 14, 2004.

"...the orders superior know some members are abusers, and they are dealing with them, not in the way the media would like them to, but approprialey."

By playing the music chair game Steve? Some of the Cardinals need to retire or get busy weeding these homosexual abusers out that should never been ordaned in the first place. Only a demon would sexually abuse someone.

But if Cardinal Rodriguez speaks out on the just war I would hope he would know why knowone in there right mind could take him serious?

Jalepo,

I read that book. I think there is an older thread on it somewere in forum unless it fell victim to mad deleter? I was shocked to read what went on at the "pink palace". It is against the rules for a homosexual to be ordained a priest to.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 14, 2004.

Steve,

I don't see how you came up with that post to Jalepo? Slow down! Go back and read what was written again!

-- - (David@excite.com), July 14, 2004.

Jalapeno,

I'm sorry about misspelling your name twice. It was a accident.

That is a different name you have. :-) I like it.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 14, 2004.

Jalapeno, I'm sorry about misspelling your name twice. It was a accident.

That is a different name you have. :-) I like it.

***Thank you and no problem about the misspelling. Didn't even notice. :o) I got the nickname from my parents. Dad (passed away) was Irish/Enlgish, and my mom is Mexican/Spanish. Dad said I was as hot as a jalapeno (my temper) while my mom would say I burned her like one. It use to tick me off when the called me by this name, but now as an adult I understand what they were talking about. Not that it was my fault if you know what I mean. ;o)

God Bless,

Jalapeno (whose birth name is Arlette)

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 14, 2004.

Well maybe I’m just stupid, but David I assure you I re-read and re- read Jalapeno’s post saying “For parents out there, test your priest in the confessionals.” And racked my brain for 3 weeks trying to work out what she meant before I finally asked her. Jalapeno I assure you I am not “playing games”. And yes I have children, hence the reason for my interest. Yes I see why you would be concerned about those answers you and your son got from the priest, but I repeat, the confessional is not the place to “test” your priest. If you’re concerned about his beliefs, ask him outside the confessional instead of misusing the sacrament for other than its intended purpose.

Instead of dropping cryptic innuendos about this “silent abuse that no one has spoken about happening daily in the confessionals” , tell us what it is. If you know about it and are silent, you are complicit in it. By your vague reference you are casting a slur over every priest in every confessional.

David, you may call it “the musical chair game”. I would call it in many cases giving someone the benefit of the doubt and/or a second chance after he has shown he has reformed, rather than “weeding him out” and throwing him to the ravenous wolves of the media.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 14, 2004.

I am not casting a "slur" over every priest. It is our duty to NOW check on them, and how are you to know I didn't have sins to confess along with my questions? How many priest do you think I went to with what happened to my son and how many do you think agreed with the priest who spoke with him? Far too many and at that period in my life I was seriously wondering if God wasn't trying to show me that the Catholic faith was not His. It was a scary time for me and it had me pacing the floors, reading the Bible, Catechism, and wondering if I was losing it ESPECIALLY when far too many priest agreed with the one who spoke the way he did to my 9yo son. Not sure where you live, but it is very hard for me to just "pop" in on a priest when I am not from their town. If the priest was out I would ask him to his face if I did not have a sin to confess. So there you have it Steve and sorry this bothered you for 3 weeks. I also did not state that you played games, but that I wasn't.

Dave, the books I mentioned completely made sense to all that is going on. I have family and friends who will share what they are told in the confessional when I tell them something they are doing is wrong. Of course it isn't wrong to them because they have been told differently by a priest and who am I to tell them otherwise.

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.

OK Jalapeno, if I understand you now, you are saying that the “abuse” consists of priests telling penitents falsely that some of the sins they confess are not really sins. While that’s a Bad Thing and could be considered an “abuse” of the sacrament (as also could your giving the priest an orthodoxy questionnaire while he's administering the sacrament), please don’t use the word “abuse” for it in the context of this thread. You make it sound like something much more sinister.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 15, 2004.

OK Jalapeno, if I understand you now, you are saying that the “abuse” consists of priests telling penitents falsely that some of the sins they confess are not really sins.

***Yes and also leading them to sin more by the advice given. Some are mortal sins.

While that’s a Bad Thing and could be considered an “abuse” of the sacrament (as also could your giving the priest an orthodoxy questionnaire while he's administering the sacrament), please don’t use the word “abuse” for it in the context of this thread. You make it sound like something much more sinister.

***It is a horrible thing! Souls are at stake here. For me it is still abuse when they (priest) are risking souls, but if that word is making it sound like something else then I won't use it. Which word would fit better when you know many people who are being told their mortal sins are not bad and the advice given will lead them to commit more mortal sins?

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.

"I would call it in many ways giving someone the benefit of the doubt.."

Steve there is nothing wrong with giving someone the benefit of the doubt. But, keep these perverts way from children. Would you want these perverts around your children after they have abused someone else children?

"../or a second chance after he has shown that he has reformed."

How does one of these perverts show they have "reformed"? A normal man has never sexually abused someone Steve. This is very, very evil stuff buddy. I would rather die before I put a sexual pervert around a innocent child and leave them alone. How does this person hear the Confession of another man after this? How does one celebrate the holy Mass after raping a child?

I would have no problem telling Cardinal Oscar or Cardinal Law what I tell you if I would ever meet them in person. Its a disgrace the way this garbage is handled in the Church started by God Himself over 2000 years ago.

Hi, Jalapeno

I will pray for the repose of your Dads soul early in am when I spend some time with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament tomm.

God bless all the holy souls.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 15, 2004.

I will pray for the repose of your Dads soul early in am when I spend some time with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament tomm.

***Thank you so much! :o)

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.

“you know many people who are being told their mortal sins are not bad and the advice given will lead them to commit more mortal sins?” (Jalapeno)

One cannot commit a mortal sin unless one has full knowledge that the act is gravely sinful. If their confessor has told them that the act is not at all sinful, it’s unlikely they would believe it is gravely sinful, so it would not be a mortal sin.

David, they show they have reformed the same way any other sinner does. By demonstrating sincere contrition and a firm purpose of amendment. How exactly would you define “a normal man” ? We are all sinners. Are murderers, drug pushers, Satanists, slave- traders, oppressors of the poor, etc.etc. “normal”? Or is it only pedophiles and homosexuals that are excluded from your definition? I never suggested we should “put a sexual pervert around a innocent child and leave them alone”. Neither should we cut him off and throw him to the wolves of the media and the secular courts, merely because of one offence decades earlier, much less for an unsubstantiated allegation. All priests are sinners, but I believe the only sin that disqualifies a man from serving as a priest is wilful murder.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 20, 2004.

One cannot commit a mortal sin unless one has full knowledge that the act is gravely sinful. If their confessor has told them that the act is not at all sinful, it’s unlikely they would believe it is gravely sinful, so it would not be a mortal sin.

***Steve, I would think you would know I knew that or I wouldn't be so upset about it. Have you thought that maybe I have told them it is a mortal sin and they have gone and asked and have been told it is not?

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 20, 2004.

"..How exactly would you define a mormal man? We are all sinners."

Yes Steve we are all sinners, but "normal men" don't abuse children and get sexually excited by a child. This is a sexual pervert and not a normal man. Would you want someone around your child that has abused someone else's child?

"..but I believe the only sin that disqualifies a man from serving as a priest is willful murder."

Steve being a homosexual technically disqualifies a man from being ordaned! This is fact.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 20, 2004.

Fair enough, Jalapeno.

David, I take it then that you confirm that in your opinion every other sinner, no matter what they do, is “normal”, with the exception of pedophiles and homosexuals. Why do you re-ask the same question which I have just answered?

Your last statement is wrong on two counts.

1. “Being a homosexual” is not a sin. Temptation is not sin; it only becomes sinful if we deliberately entertain it, give in to it and act upon it.

2. The rule against ordaining those with homosexual tendencies is a rule of church discipline. The homosexual tendency itself doesn’t “disqualify” a man from the priesthood, the church merely chooses not to ordain him. Once a homosexual has been ordained (and many have been), his homosexuality, even if he gives in to its temptations, does not “un-ordain” him nor even give grounds for him to be suspended or laicized. On the other hand, if a man commits wilful murder, even if he has confessed and received absolution, the murder itself disqualifies him from being ordained, and if a priest commits murder, that itself disqualifies him from serving as a priest.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 20, 2004.

Once a homosexual has been ordained (and many have been), his homosexuality, even if he gives in to its temptations, does not “un- ordain” him nor even give grounds for him to be suspended or laicized.

***This should disqualify him automatically. The problem we have in our Church right now exists because of homosexual priest and Bishops who cover up for them. I for one don't believe most of them can properly counsel their flock and lead them to God. The priest who spoke to my son the way he did was moved to a parish where two boys were sexually abused by a priest. Do you think this priest will direct these boys properly?

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

jalepeno,

i concur that in this day and age it is good, and wise, to test where your priest stands on issues of morality. at the same time, i must agree with steve that doing so in the confessional is not only innapropriate, but also an abuse of the sacrament.

if it is annonymity that you seek in your testing, call your priest in his parish office or home, tell him you would rather remain anonymous, and then ask your questions. that will give you the best of both worlds.

Dave,

i know your frustration, i've felt it to. but at the same time, remember that many of the cases against the priests were dropped or cleared because they were false. granted that even if all the accusations were true, by statistics YOU would have a higher chance of molesting a boy than a priest would, i must assume that the catholic church has done something right in preventing at least a portion from acting in such a manner.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 21, 2004.

Hi, Steve

"..your last statement is wrong on both counts."

No it isn't! You putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. STOP it! You praised a priest that sexually abused your seminarian friend before, and talked of the great advice he gave him after he raped him. You attitude is sick with this. Your friend wasn't a baby. He was over 18 and should of been more of a man instead of letting another man use him a "love toy". Did the gaY priest have a gun or something? And your same friend lets himself fall for a nun???? I guess the gay man did want him to stop it with the nun. He was probably jealous of his "boy".

"..being homosexual is not a sin."

I never said it was. Scroll up and read it again.

"..The homosexual tendency itself doesn't "disqualify" a man from the priesthood."

Steve you are either attracted to hairy legs, chests and what ever else males have etc... or not. If you are attracted to this than your a homosexual and not suppose be ordaned!

"..even if he gives in to his temptations..."

Than he is a practising homosexual and should retire because he should never been ordaned in the first place. Man is made in the image of God and this is an abomination.

Hi, Paul

"Dave by statiics YOU would have a higher chance of molesting a boy than a Priest."

You got lost somewhere in this thread paul! I am not talking of priests in general. It was about priests that were moved after the fact.

Im know that 97.1% of priests are not child molestors. I have nothing but the most respect and love for orthodoc holy Catholic priests. The thread was about the music chair game.

Also paul your wrong. I have not and never will mollest a chiild and I'm not a homosexual. The chances are 100% that I never will. I have never been falseley accused of this either.

But, now when a gay man commits this vile act than the answer is NOT move him around where possible he will strike again with another child.

The answer is (1)to have an investigation and get to the bottom of this grave accusation of child abuse(2) how was this gay man ordaned in first place?(3) Lets keep this accused away from children until we know exactly what went on.

The answer is not ship him on down to another parish. I think child molestors are the scum of the earth and know one deserves a free pass when messing with Gods children and their private innocent parts. Imagine what is going through a childs mind when someone is raping them? It can scare them for life.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 21, 2004.

Ooooopps! I forgot Steve. You said asked me: " Why do you re-ask the same question I have just answered?"

I couldn't find your answer so I'll ask it again:

Steve, would you want these perverts around your children after they abused someone else children?

-- - (David@excite.com), July 21, 2004.

i must agree with steve that doing so in the confessional is not only innapropriate, but also an abuse of the sacrament.

if it is annonymity that you seek in your testing, call your priest in his parish office or home, tell him you would rather remain anonymous, and then ask your questions. that will give you the best of both worlds.

***I don't care if they see me, but as I stated earlier it is not easy just going to a parish and finding a priest and speaking with him (won't even get into how hard it was getting a priest to see my uncle in the hospital who passed away last month). I have spoken with a few face to face and I don't have a problem with this at all. The times I did this I was beginning to think I was losing my mind. The few I spoke with face to face did not tell me what was in line with our Catholic teaching PLUS one crossed his hands in front of his chest, leaned back in his chair and asked me if I was through then told me to have a good day and didn't move. I did not mean to "test" the way I did, but at that time I could not just let any priest hear my children in confession and when going to the parishes it was not planned. It was a very scary time going to one after the other and having them all tell you incorrectly. Looking back it was probably not appropriate to use the confessional, but being there is never a long line or a line in some cases and I've never been told by the priest to speak with him later or scolded for that matter, I didn't see the big deal plus I always had something to confess. The only priest who got slightly mad at me was the one who dared me to turn him into the Bishop. Don't think I made him mad for asking the questions I did, but by telling him what he was saying was going against our Catholic beliefs.

So bottom line, find out where your priest stand with certain mortal sins, but don't use the confessional (unless there is absolutely no other way.. ;o) ).

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

PS In an earlier post I talked about "silent abuse". By that I meant we do not hear for the most part what people are being told in confessionals (nor should we). The ones I have heard came after talking about certain subjects and then having someone tell me how they were advised. One small example, we have a couple in our NO Church who are not married, but living together with three children and receive communion. They were told by an earlier priest this was OK for them. The list goes on and on and that is why it is silent. For the most part none of us will hear what others confess and how they are advised. I've heard there is a priest an hour away from us who is "old fashioned". He won't annul a marriage or let this lady receive communion (we need more like him). She has been advised by others who know where she can go and to which priest who will not only annul her marriage, but give her commuinion. This is the silent abuse I am speaking of. All of this is damaging to souls. I felt as if I was in a bad movie going from one priest to the next hearing lies. It scared me so much that I was honestly thinking God was trying to tell me the Catholic Church was not His. A big blessing came from this horrible ordeal though. I am learning my faith (the more I learn the more I see I know little) as has my family and I now home school my five children. :o) From bad came a big blessing and I thank God for it. I needed that wake up call and maybe for me it took using my son to listen.

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Also paul your wrong. I have not and never will mollest a chiild and I'm not a homosexual. The chances are 100% that I never will. I have never been falseley accused of this either.

sorry, dave, not meaning to say that you would... just that, if you were a complete stranger to me, then you would have a better chance of being a child molestor than a priest. think about that next time you walk down the street, any stranger you see has a higher chance of being a child molestor than a catholic priest, yet where is the media in decrying the hollywood sex society?

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 22, 2004.

Paul,

Thanks but I don't have to think of that because I know over 95% of Catholic priests are holy men. I am not brain washed by any media.

I would fight like a pit-bull for any good holy priest or nun. I pray for them every day and go out of my way to help them.

But, I have no time for any clown (so called leader) that moves a accused to another parish to abuse another child. Obviously after the hundreds and hundreds of millions that were paid out I am not the only one that feels this way.

Steves way on handling it is blame it on everyone(the cival courts, lawyers,victims etc....)but the homosexuals that should never been ordained to begin with in the first place.

How dare those few Bishops move thast cancer around to infest another child! Like I said before, if those Bishops stood a chance of being raped do you think that they would of moved the homosexual near them? I don't.

How can a gay man live in a seminary with other men? He is always going to be around other men getting out of shower, walking around without a shirt, etc... The temptation is to great for this evil. Think about that. The rules need to be followed.

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), July 22, 2004.

Two things: one, I think Steve is right to point out that a whole order shouldn't be condemned for the crimes of a few men - it goes against fundamental justice to lump the 99 innocent with the 1 guilty. Even Abraham saw that with respect with Sodom: for the sake of 10 innocent men, God would spare the city. Shall we then nuke a whole order "the city" for the sake of "10" evil-doers?

Second. Homosexuality is a mental disorder. On that ground alone a man could very well be dismissed from the seminary. Such illnesses DON'T in and of themselves render a man immoral...but...they sure don't help him become a saint either.

SODOMY ('acting out') is a moral depravity - because of the extreme damage it does to the actor and receiver and to society via scandal and the coursening effect of sex outside of marriage.

Most Catholics get the distinction between the two terms but some don't realize how pathological the orientation is in and of itself.

-- anonymous (anonymous@yahoo.com), July 22, 2004.

Jalapeno, I agree that the priests who said that choosing homosexuality is OK, and encouraged your son to buy pornography and masturbate, gave totally wrong advice and encouraged them to sin, and should be reported to the bishop, but if only “One out of four gave the right advice” how come “the Bishop knew exactly who I was speaking of before I said his name” ? I guess you mean that the other two agreed these were sins, but disagreed that your categorical assertions that these are mortal sins for your adolescent son. If so I agree with them. Do you really believe that if your young son masturbated he would be TOTALLY rejecting God and causing the TOTAL death of sanctifying grace in his soul? Did you consider some of these priests may have a better understanding of the theology of sin than you do?

Maybe if you find it impossible to get a word in with a priest at any other time, it could be OK, if no-one is waiting for Reconciliation and AFTER the priest has absolved you and said “Go in peace”, if you asked to him in the confessional if he minded answering some questions about his beliefs. But he would be justified in saying no, especially if he realised you were deliberately testing him. When it comes to the crunch, he is not answerable to you for his orthodoxy, but to the bishop.

Maybe you’re right that being a homosexual SHOULD automatically disqualify a man from being a priest, but it doesn’t. I was just stating the facts. Yes David homosexuals are not SUPPOSED to be ordained but many have been. We can’t just laicize them all. Yes anonymous, I realise the orientation itself is pathological and can be foreseen to lead to problems, but it is not in itself sinful. Just like some have a tendency to quick anger and aggression, others a tendency to laziness, etc. These are not sins in themselves but tendencies to be fought against. If a man co-operates with God, these weaknesses can be turned into strengths, and “help him become a saint” .

David, it is you who are putting words into MY mouth. I did not “praise” the priest who abused my friend T, I merely repeated what T told me, that he greatly appreciated some things the priest had done for him, and I used this as an illustration that someone who commits sexual abuse is not necessarily COMPLETELY evil in every way. T didn’t give me details of the abuse but I understand it fell short of “rape”.

You claim you “have nothing but the most respect and love for orthodoc holy Catholic priests” and “would fight like a pit- bull for any good holy priest” . But you pour scorn on T, who I’ve told you is a good holy priest and whom you don’t even know. Yes, T was a grown man, (though not considered mature enough by the State to vote or to buy liquor) but perhaps you don’t appreciate the power relationship between a novice and the novice-master in a monastery a few decades ago. Yes, T later “fell for” a nun, but he was man enough to stop it before it led to sin – that was T’s idea, not his former abuser’s.

“"..being homosexual is not a sin." I never said it was. Scroll up and read it again.”

OK. Here is what you said: “I believe the only sin that disqualifies a man from serving as a priest is willful murder." Steve being a homosexual technically disqualifies a man from being ordaned! This is fact.”

I totally agree that "The answer is (1)to have an investigation and get to the bottom of this grave accusation of child abuse(2) how was this gay man ordaned in first place?(3) Lets keep this accused away from children until we know exactly what went on. “ And this is exactly what happened BEFORE an accused priest was “shipped on down to another parish” except in a VERY FEW cases, and certainly none recently. In addition the bishop had to be satisfied no abuse took place, or that if it did the offender had reformed.

I repeat, my answer is no, I would not “want these perverts around your children after they abused someone else children”. Please stop falsely accusing me of saying that those who have abused children should be put in charge of other children. And falsely accusing me of blaming the victims. Yes I do blame the media and lawyers who piously pretend to be defending innocents but are motivated only by greed and hatred of the Church.

And let’s not forget the other victims, the innocent priests. I have another friend who is a Salesian priest. He was utterly disconsolate to find that some of his brothers in the order had done the very opposite of what their order is all about. Our children adored him. Whenever he came to our house, they would fling themselves at him and wrap themselves around his legs. He wrote a heartbreaking letter to us, worrying that he might accidentally have touched a child inappropriately, and saying “I understand if you don’t want me to come to your house or be with your children again.” Of course we told him he will always be welcome, but I know his pain remains.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 23, 2004.

I guess you mean that the other two agreed these were sins, but disagreed that your categorical assertions that these are mortal sins for your adolescent son. If so I agree with them.

***Of course you would agree with them not knowing it all and not reading more into everything that has been put out in front of you. I see this is your way of debating things. ;o) They were wrong bottom line and I've been told this by many different priests and even a priest very close to the Bishop was disgusted. The Bishop was not pleased when I spoke with him either and there is far more, but I really don't want to get into it. I am happy where I am right now and that nightmare is behind me.

Do you really believe that if your young son masturbated he would be TOTALLY rejecting God and causing the TOTAL death of sanctifying grace in his soul?

***LOL Loved how you capitalized "TOTAL". Your statement above is TOTALLY yours alone. I believe my children are ENTITLED to have good confessions and a priest direct them properly. It will be a cold day in hell before I let a priest who would ENCOURAGE masturbation and veiwing a Playboy near my children. Heck they even agreed with being able to pick which gender you want to be with when older. That is how insane the whole thing was. How many would you guess were homosexual?

Did you consider some of these priests may have a better understanding of the theology of sin than you do?

***Duh..., but this doesn't mean they will direct properly. Would you like a list of sins that I personally know about and how they were not told correctly by these so called priest with a better understanding? Fornication, drugs, abortion, tubals, vasectomy (no medical reason either if you wanted to give them an excuse)? I know you really wouldn't want to hear it because it is quite depressing.

Maybe if you find it impossible to get a word in with a priest at any other time, it could be OK, if no-one is waiting for Reconciliation and AFTER the priest has absolved you and said “Go in peace”, if you asked to him in the confessional if he minded answering some questions about his beliefs. But he would be justified in saying no, especially if he realised you were deliberately testing him. When it comes to the crunch, he is not answerable to you for his orthodoxy, but to the bishop.

****Sigh ...At that time my children were younger and in school so I didn't have all this time on my hands either. Any ways, all of this happened 2 1/2 years ago. I have found which priest I can trust my children with so no need to go out and do leg work any more. Now my children have a better understanding of our faith and hopefully they will never meet a priest who misdirects them, but if they do they know their faith well enough not to be fooled.

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 23, 2004.

"...but perhaps you don't appreciate the power relationship between a novice and the novice-master in a monastery a few decades aGO."

OH, pleeeeaaaasse Steve. Every job has someone in charge of them (power over them). This doesn't mean a 18 year old is suppose to curr and let someone have there way sexually with them. Your friend lacked heart as a man to let this homosexual use him. He was over 18. This sounds like a homosexual relationship, unless a gun or knife etc... were involved.

On another note- thanks for answering my question honestly.

And I would like to give thanks to God for the three very holy Orthodox Catholic priests that our parish has. Two of them are my age ( 30's) and one is 55. They have Confession available before every Holy Mass and its over 4000 families and a school they help run. God bless them and keep them safe. They also have perpetual Eucharistic Adoration and spend hours in prayer.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 23, 2004.

“TOTALLY rejecting God and causing the TOTAL death of sanctifying grace in his soul? ***LOL Loved how you capitalized "TOTAL". Your statement above is TOTALLY yours alone. “ (Jalapeno)

No, it’s the teaching of the Church. TOTAL is the important word to distinguish a mortal sin, a sin that is deadly (Latin “mortalis”) to the grace in the soul, rather than just injuring it as a venial sin does.

David, maybe you don’t realise how the world works. All people over 18 are not equal in power. Ask Monica Lewinsky. This was even more true a few decades ago when this happened to T, and especially when the importance of obedience to their superiors was continually impressed upon young members of religious orders, and when those who left an order were regarded as failures.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 27, 2004.

John, getting back to your original post, you said "moving priests for the sake of avoiding scandal" is "a sin in itself". Please explain which commandment this is a breach of, let alone how it is a sin so bad that "Any bishop who has done this needs to be defrocked."

"We as members of the Roman Catholic Church need to put pressure on the bishops to get rid of bad priests and assist in the filing of criminal charges. PERIOD." In many cases a bishop would become aware of the abuse when hearing a confession. Surely you're not suggesting they should break the seal of confession? Priests have been martyred for refusing to do so. And practically speaking, an abusive priest is far less likely to admit his problem and seek help if his bishop and everyone else is going to run straight to the cops as soon as they hear about it.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 27, 2004.

TOTALLY rejecting God and causing the TOTAL death of sanctifying grace in his soul? No, it’s the teaching of the Church. TOTAL is the important word to distinguish a mortal sin, a sin that is deadly (Latin “mortalis”) to the grace in the soul, rather than just injuring it as a venial sin does.

***Steve, you lost me. Are you trying to say that you would allow your children to go to a priest who would counsel them against what the Catholic Church teaches? What you are saying above has nothing to do with what I went through, how I felt at the time or what my worries were.

Do you really believe that if your young son masturbated he would be TOTALLY rejecting God and causing the TOTAL death of sanctifying grace in his soul?

***This is what you stated above. Whose soul are you talking about? My son would not know how to masturbate especially being he only thought sex was kissing and was 9yo. If you are a parent you should know this or maybe you have children who mature quicker. So far mine have been late bloomers the oldest one starting to change at the age of 15 years (last year) while my second son who is now going through it is 14 1/2 yo. After what was said to an innocent 9yo what parent would not go out and look for a good priest or what parent would really trust a priest without finding out where their beliefs stood? It is sad that I couldn't find one on the first try or even second or third. I also wrote two letters, made three calls to the Diocese with my concern. I did not hear back until I wrote a third letter threatening to withdraw our 5 year pledge to the Church.

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), July 27, 2004.

Yes Steve, masturbation while looking at porn is a TOTAL rejection of God because while doing it a man has to a) objectify a woman, lusting for her in his heart while b) committing the sin of Onan.

Now, perhaps you will quote me a dip stick theologian who begs to differ. I ask you, how many venial sins (non-lethal) are as habit forming and as hard to get rid of as masturbation and porn?

Men who know these sins are wrong but do them anyway - compulsively, repeatedly, etc. are souls who so love their will that they are willing to reject God's will.

Oh, yeah, scripture. Well, Jesus did tell us that only the Pure will see God. (Beatitudes) and he did tell us that only if we become like little children (who don't lust) could we enter his kingdom.

But of course...it's a sin that seems so harmless - like adultery! Or stealing...who really gets hurt if we steal from a bank when its all insured anyway? Or lying? Or cursing?

And so it goes until you get yourself to believe that practically nothing a man does could ever truly be mortal - could ever so close himself on himself as to shut out God.

Psychologically, such sins are very powerful and create a thousand excuses for themselves (another sign that they're serious as venial sins don't have such an arsenal of excuses).

-- anon (anonymous@yahoo.com), July 27, 2004.

" David, maybe you don't realise how the world works."

Steve, I would say my experiences in life have taught me very well how the world works and how to take up for myself at a young age.. I think "t" was a effemminate man to let a gay priest use him sexually when he was 18 or older. You can word it anyway you want bud, but letting gay priests abuse you when your a man is pathetic and sad excuse for a man. Make all the excuses you want for him, but this is NOT how the world works. You don't trade gay sexual favors to become a ordained Catholic priest or any other job. And "t" probaly confessed his sins to this guy and was given advice. This is a discrace to the Catholic Church.

I don't think to many wifes would buy that excuse about thier husbands having a affair at work. Hunny she had power of me.lol

"..all over 18 are not in equal power."

Never said they were! But, dropping your pants for a homosexual isn't going to put you in any power.

"..Ask Monica Lewinsky.."

Your comparing apples& watermelons.

"..this was even true a few decades ago.."

Ya sure if you say so RIGHT?

"..and especially when the importance of obedience to their superiors was continually impressed upon young members of the orders..."

Obedience to let someone have there gay way with you? Do you think Jesus would want a young seminarian letting himself be sexually abused by a gay priest in charge? Think about what your saying. Its so sad.

"..and when those who left an order were regarded as failures."

So I guess "t" is considered a winner because he let a gay priest have his way sexually with him, because he didn't want to be regarded as a "failure" for breaking his wrist and reporting him?

The Catholic Church doesn't operate this way Steve. Operating like this is a way to sure failure. Seminarians are made in the image of God and shouldn't stoop to this level.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 27, 2004.

Anon, you know very well I was not talking about “Men who know these sins are wrong but do them anyway - compulsively, repeatedly” . I was talking about ONE instance in a morally confused adolescent. I said it was probably not a MORTAL sin in that case. NOT that it’s “Harmless”.

David, you twist my words even worse. I’m not "comparing apples and watermelons" . People can use their power to force both homosexual and heterosexual acts. I clearly said it was evil, so don’t accuse me of saying it’s what "Jesus would want” , or try to twist it to accuse me of saying it's OK for the weak to commit sexual acts to GET power. Please debate honestly.

John or anyone, how about answering my question?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 28, 2004.

Sorry, my bad about the case there Steve. Yeah, if it was a kid who didn't know better but felt bad about it then it probably wasn't a mortal sin given his lack of knowledge. And in today's day and age with K-12 sex ed and the stuff online and on tv, I suppose lots of little boys experiment without realizing how bad is bad...

I was just reacting because some priests have been sold weird moral theories whereby anyone can do "it" with little or no moral problems since "it's so minor" or so natural or so easy, etc. blah blah blah.

But once they sell masturbation it's not long before "consensual sex" becomes OK too - and then bestiality and everything else since the use of sexuality outside of the marital embrace is considered OK. The only line drawn is between adults and children and forced sex. But all the while people get addicted and hurt and the theologians get away with heresy.

So I just reacted. Sorry.

-- anon. (anonymous@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

"..I'm not comparing apples& watermelons.."

Steve comparing a former president of the United States of America putting a cigar where it shouldn't of been to a gay CATHOLIC priest is comparing apples & "watermelons".

I will explain if you want? Some minor questions ie..Slick Willy wasn't gay, are you comparing the ordaned gay Catholic priest to Willy? The Catholic priest wasn't suppose to be oprdained in first place right? Surely male and female attraction is different than male &male sex right?

"..I clearly said it was evil..."

I clearly rember you praising the gay priest praising the advice he gave to his victim. Don't you?

"..so don't accuse me of saying ......."

I asked you "..what would Jesus want....?...." because its that simple. Jesus would not want "t" to let himself be sexually abused and if this did happen(God forbid this to happen to anyone no matter how much you downplay this) that this is EVIL! Please don't go to this priest for advice and report this crime RIGHT AWAY!

"..Please debate honestly..."

You can do better than that.

God bless you& yours.

PS: And how do you answer John's question with a question?? I'm not clear on what you mean?

-- - (David@excite.com), July 29, 2004.

Steve seems to be a liberal and quite compromising against such deadly sins that cry out to heaven for vengence. Have a good and orderly formed conscience Steve. Try to be pleasing before God!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 29, 2004.

""..I clearly said it was evil..." I clearly rember you praising the gay priest praising the advice he gave to his victim. Don't you?" (David)

I said that T praised his advice. Neither T nor I praised his abuse.

My question to John was “John, getting back to your original post, you said "moving priests for the sake of avoiding scandal" is "a sin in itself". Please explain which commandment this is a breach of, let alone how it is a sin so bad that "Any bishop who has done this needs to be defrocked."

I assure you Leslie I make no compromise with sin, so please don’t impugn that to me. I try to be pleasing before God, but it seems I can never please the contributors to this forum.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 31, 2004.

Steve, david or whoever...what are you two jerks rambling about???The issue is abuse not anything to do with sexual orientation or belief systems. If a man or woman abuses a child..that is criminal. Period. I just don't get this silly back and forth discussions that you two are having. Homosexuality a sin? priests because they abuse young boys are gay and therefore all gays should be punsihed? Which world do you two live in???? What actually saddens me is that you two have children and they are growing up in such an amoral environment. Teach them to love not hate and abuse one another. I don't know where did god teach us to hate someone who practices a different lifestyle. Don't be homophobic and don't promote hatred amongst each other.

Navin

-- Navin (navinvasudev@hotmail.com), August 11, 2004.

Hello, Navin

Would you explain what(specific part of my posts) you are refering to in your last post to me?

Thanks in advance Navin.

-- - (David@excite.com), August 11, 2004.

I have to agree with David here, Navin, YOU are the one who is rambling and being hateful and offensive. I have strongly disagreed with David but I certainly don’t “hate” him or think he is “amoral” or a “jerk”. Please point out anything I have said which you somehow construe as being “homophobic” or “amoral” or “promoting hatred”.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), August 11, 2004.

Steve, david or whoever...what are you two jerks rambling about???

{Whu I beelive the Paedophile Priets sandal... the topic of the thread...}-Zarove

The issue is abuse not anything to do with sexual orientation or belief systems.

{It has to do with all three. These are proests who have sworn to uphold Cahtolci DOctorine and Morals, and shoudl set a better example as befalls their responcibility based on their beelifs. Liekwise, as stated, they are men who are attracted to boys...beelive it or not, Pedophilia is considered an "Oreintation" now too... Homosexual Pedophilia is a category of Orientation...and why dotn we call it what it is any more? Sexual preference? oh thats right, we wan tot used memetics and get peopel to beleive and htin the way we wan tthem to, and that beign Gay is innate...srry, stupid me...}-Zarove

{Actually, it does. Cnsider the fact that most of the abuse victims where boys, and most by adult MEN. If the Prietss had not been Homosexually inclined, then why woidl they even be attracted ot boys? Heck, Im attracted to women because Im streight. Get it? Not that you want to get it. }-Zarove

If a man or woman abuses a child..that is criminal. Period.

{Yes, and on that we agree. We are also deeply saddened by the actiosn of some Bishops, wo prefer to move and ide this crime in order to avoid scandal, rathe than do the right hting and imprison the priest.}-Zarove

I just don't get this silly back and forth discussions that you two are having. Homosexuality a sin?

{Yes, it is. I know, not hyppe or modern to down soemone for their "Sexual oreintation". And hey, their in love, right? Not only is Homoseuxalit physclogiclal and physically desturctive, but scripture also declared it a sin. Period.Rather you liek it or not.

Read Leviticus 18:22

22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

You may also want to read the first chapter of Romans.

Yes, Homosexuality is a sin, rather you like this FACT or not.}- Zarove

priests because they abuse young boys are gay and therefore all gays should be punsihed?

{No one sad that... and it is here tha yo becom irrational and begin projecitng. You want ot call us irraional, and yet then make blanketed statements that exagerate and distort our claims.}-Zarove

Which world do you two live in????

{This one...}-Zarove

What actually saddens me is that you two have children and they are growing up in such an amoral environment.

{Odd form a Moral reltavist. By the way, Amoral means they grow up with no morals at all... I think you meant immoral. However, tis mroe immoral to sanction sin, than to stand agausnt it and crrect error in ove. ou may think if we call homosexuality a sin we hate Homosexuals, but we love them enugh not to wan them to desotry themselves. Hou only let them do as they please, and pretend this makes you open minded.}-Zarove

Teach them to love not hate and abuse one another.

{That is the central tenet of christainity, and why we call Homosexuality a sin. Its desturctive. I cannot love someone and allow them to desory themselves. You. on the other hand, want to allow Homoseuality as normal, this is les slovign and more irresponcible.}-Zarove

I don't know where did god teach us to hate someone who practices a different lifestyle.

{Firts thing, its God, cap G. Not ogd. I now you do beleive in god, but this doesnt make the Grammer rules go away. Here is is used as a porper noun, and its offensive to spell it in lower case, sicne those who do usually d so out of lack of respect and disdane. Please spell it God in the future and not god.

Also, God condemns many "Alternate lifestyles." He calls us all to live righeous lives, and isnt a mroal relitavist. he does this , and asks us to do this, out of love, and not out of fear, hatred, and ignorance.

You sem to think that opposign soemthign means the same thign as hatred, wich is a mistake in and of itsself.}-Zarove

Don't be homophobic and don't promote hatred amongst each other.

{Im not Homophobic, in that I am not afraid of Homosexuals. I am, however, opposed to their lifestyle, which is dangerous and desturctive.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 11, 2004.

It seems those who the Salesians work most closely with don't condemn them, but want to join them:

"Vocations flourish in the Pacific Islands

Two Rome-based news services have reported that years of missionary activity and the "high quality of formation offered" have produced a steady rise in the number of vocations to the priesthood and religious life in the Pacific.

Vidimus Dominum said last month that the Salesians in Samoa have 20 local candidates for their congregation in formation, which is significant given the size of the country.

Australia's Salesian Provincial - who administers the congregation's activities in Samoa, spoke to the news service of what he sees as a source of hope for the Church in the islands. Next month, the Salesians' Major Rector Fr Pascual Chavez will visit the Island on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Salesians’ presence.

Earlier this year the congregation's reputation in Samoa and elsewhere was severely damaged by revelations of sex abuse by an Australian Salesian at Moamoa Theological College.

Meanwhile, the Fides news service of the Vatican's Office for the Propagation of the Faith reports this week on a "steady rise in the number vocations to the priesthood" in Tahiti."

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 03, 2004.

Steve,

I think you missed the point John P. was making when he started this thread? It was about moving evil after you know it was accused of harming a child. John wrote, "..Moving priests for the sake of avoiding scandal has done extreme harm to the Church. It's a sin in itself and inexcuseable.

Any bishop who has done this needs to be defrocked."

He wasn't mad at the "Salesians" in general.

I'm sure we all agree they are some holy, devout Catholics. But don't confuse this with moving a "accused pervert". You're moving the "target".

If I read John wrong I'm sure he will let me know.

-- - (David@excite.com), September 03, 2004.

It wasn't me who wrote the title of this thread. It was clearly meant to smear the whole Salesian order with guilt by association.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 03, 2004.

"..It wasn't me who wrote the title of this thread..."

The title of the thread is " Salesians of Don Bosco". This is NOT "smearing" Steve. With all due respect I don't agree with you.

-- - (David@excite.com), September 03, 2004.

Earlier this year the congregation's reputation in Samoa and elsewhere was severely damaged by revelations of sex abuse by an Australian Salesian at Moamoa Theological College.

***Would have loved to seen the same discipline done there to the Bishops here in the US. Maybe we needed "proof" as in photos before they would go to the right and proper lengths they did.

It wasn't me who wrote the title of this thread. It was clearly meant to smear the whole Salesian order with guilt by association.

***I want to say PUKE to your whole statement here, but won't. ;o) If you are really one of those people who read something and think it is to slander ALL, then you must take a break from it. Of course there will be many Holy men in Oders where there is corruption, but may those who corrupt be sent away before they bring it ALL DOWN or cause SCANDAL and DOUBT!

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), September 03, 2004.

Grow up Jalapeno. John's opening post, and all subsequent ones except mine, are NOT about the Salesians in general but about pedophilia and blasting Card Rodriguez and the Salesians.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.

Grow up Jalapeno.

***What would you like me to grow up to be? ;o) *giggling*

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), September 05, 2004.

Someone who discusses issues rationally, honestly and charitably, instead of using dishonest formulas like saying “I won’t say this” when you have already said it.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.

Someone who discusses issues rationally, honestly and charitably, instead of using dishonest formulas like saying “I won’t say this” when you have already said it.

***Oh my! It really bothered you that much? Sorry.

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), September 05, 2004.

Apology accepted. Sorry if my sense of humor is a little lacking after a series of ignorant and personal attacks on me re this issue.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.