I heard from a friend who study ethics and a lesbian was invited to talk in her class. My friend says that the lesbian says that she will go to heaven because she believes God accepts Christ as Lord and Savior. In the beginning, God created man and women and God said it was very good.

Well, will gay or lesbian christians go to heaven?

-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), June 16, 2004

Answers

Response to Will lesbian or gay christians go to heaven?

bump

-- (bump@bump.bump), June 16, 2004.

Response to Will lesbian or gay christians go to heaven?

Homosexual conduct has always been considered a sin, based upon Church teachings (Biblical and tradition based).

The debate continues as to whether someone is gay based upon environment (chose) or genetics.

A person may have same sex desires and not act on them.

If science ever proves conclusively that someone is gay because of genetics, will the Church rethink it's position? That is yet to be seen.

Can someone who is gay be otherwise a moral Christian? yes, of course.

What hurts the gay debate is when a gay person is also immoral.

Bottomline, regardless of how humans feel about the issue one way or another -- Only God can judge.

God bless.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 16, 2004.

Response to Will lesbian or gay christians go to heaven?

A homosexual person who is trying to live a chaste life within the plan of God has exactly the same chances of salvation as a heterosexual person who is trying to live a chaste life within the plan of God. And a homosexual person who chooses a life of sin apart from the plan of God has exactly the same chances of salvation as a heterosexual person who chooses such a lifestyle.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 16, 2004.

Response to Will lesbian or gay christians go to heaven?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church on homosexuals:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

I agree with what Paul M. said that just because homosexuals have such temptations does not put them into any separate category as the rest of us. We are all called to chastity, and heterosexuals experience temptations too. In both cases, the sin is the acting on those temptations (whether thought, word, or deed).

All humans have equal opportunity to come before God, repent of their sins, and come into full communion with the Church. The lifestyles of all such Christians should be committed to Christ and the virtues that God established for us.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 16, 2004.

Well, alcohol abuse has been pretty much removed from the realm of "vice" and placed into the realm of "disease".

When was leprosy recognized as only a disease and not as a result of sin?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), June 16, 2004.

Thanks for the responses.

I believe as christians we must encourage homosexual. The Catechism of the Catholic Church on homosexuals, seems to me, is trying to justify that homosexual is moral and acceptable.

However, what I found in Revelation 22:14-15, Jesus said, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Homosexual, according to Genesis 2:24, is "sexually immoral". God created man and women to become one flesh. How can someone be a homosexual and be a christian? Christian is someone to be christ- like; one who obeys God. And of course, we must respect and love those homosexual persons, but we must stand for what is right and teach what is right.

-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), June 16, 2004.

Henri, as a fellow non catholic, I advise you to quit beating on these good people. From what I've seen from the majority of your posts, you are on a mission to try and cut down Catholics in every way possible, not only so but you do it in a very sloppy way.

You just made the wild claim that the Catholic Church tries to justify Homosexuality as moral behaviour. Nothing could be further from the truth. Scroll up and read this thread thoroughly again. If you are going to post anything substanstiative, then do it in a clear, well reasoned manner.

Emily just gave you several sections from the Catechism, which state the church's position on homosexual behaviour. It is clearly stated that the Church disapproves of it. However, it encourages us to be kind and loving toward them, for we are all sinners. In gentleness and respect, we can help lead people to turn away from their sins. So there are two aspects presented, one being that homosexuality is considered as immoral sin, contrary to God's ordination through creation, the other that we ought to treat such people, just as any sinner, with gentleness and with respect.

We are all sinners Henri. If you don't believe that we ought to be loving and kind toward sinners, then I'm afraid you'll have noone to share the gospel with.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), June 16, 2004.

Henri,

The Catechism does not promote or justify homosexuality. There is a difference between being a peron who is "homosexual," and actively "practicing" a homosexual lifestyle. The Church doesn't teach that it is sinful to be a homosexual, only to act on the associated desires.

I don't think a homosexual can simply say to himself, "Since its a sin, I think I'll now be heterosexual...thank goodness, what a relief,... that was a close call with damnation."

While the Church sees homosexual behavior as disordered / sinful, it recognises that "being" a homosexual is a more complicated issue.

I don't believe for the most part, that a homosexual can simply stop being one. If it was that simple, I think many would switch to the more widely accepted and admired lifestyle, leaving the jokes and disdain of others behind.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), June 16, 2004.

People who call themselves Christians and who willfully sin, and who are proud of their sin (let alone not repent), will not go to heaven.

Mortal sin has 3 conditions:

1) grievous behavior (homosexual sex is intrinsically grievous behavior).
2) You know, or should know the behavior is grievious. (like being told you are sinning).
3) You do it any way.
If you do not repent from mortal sin, you do not go to heaven. That is why it is called 'mortal sin'.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 16, 2004.

Hetero or homosexual , I thought , we're all humans ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), June 17, 2004.

Yes Laurent, we are all humans. We're quite clear about that. We also happen to be believers in what the bible teaches regarding what God considers sin. Homosexuality is one such practice that God reveals as being sinful. Do you expect us believers to drop what the bible teaches, all for the sake of political correctness ?

Now this does not imply that we hate homosexual people. As has been pointed out in the thread already quite sufficiently, we are to show gentleness and compassion towards them, and try to help lead them away from their sin, as we ought for any particular sin. We do it in gentleness and compassion because we realise that we too are sinners.

If a doctor didn't tell a patient that they have a problem, because He doesn't want to upset them, then He's doing a disservice to the patient. Likewise, we ought to speak the truth regarding the seriousness of sin, not to Lord authority over people but to really show love to our (as you point out) fellow human beings.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), June 17, 2004.

Non-believer...do all humans go "to heaven" or just some?

Let's do a thought experiment: first, let's define heaven as an eternal state of joy, happiness and peace in union with God and every other sentient being.

Secondly, "going to heaven" is a reward inasmuch as another state of existence exists, at least for other sentient beings, which is called "hell" and is an eternal state of horror, saddness, and war in disunion with God and ever other sentient being.

Now, if every human being who dies "goes to heaven" this must mean that what we do on this earth and in our lives has no bearing at all on what happens to us post mortem: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot...Jack the ripper...every loathsome psychopath who ever lived will all welcome us through the gates of heaven...they rape, pillage, cheat, murder their way through life...make millions of fellow human beings miserable and...it doesn't matter. It would mean that really nasty, meanspirited people - the ones who get their kicks making others suffer, the one's who go out of their way to abuse and molest children and complete strangers...will be forever happy and smug and "victorious" both now and forever.

This would be the inescapable conclusion to the idea that every human being, regardless of their actions, attitudes, and ommissions, goes "to heaven".

Now what if this isn't so?

The innate sense of human fairness seems to universally suggest that some actions and attitudes don't dispose a human soul for "heaven" as defined above.

If they really don't want to be in peaceful harmony with God and every other sentient being? What if they care more about some small idol of a good than the goodness of God or other beings?( Like making a buck while strip mining a rain forest, polluting the rivers and air, ruining widows and orphans' health...etc.?)

It seems to make sense that people "go" where they want to go. If they want "personal pleasure, power, and possessions" ("fun") for SELF more than for OTHERS, and die in this attitude of life...what post-mortem state of being could they continue to exist in other than hell?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 17, 2004.

Laurent is correct. What you call yourself is not as important as your behavior.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 17, 2004.

Indeed Bill, labels are less important than behaviour. It appears to me though than Laurent, being a non-believer, sees nothing wrong with homosexual behaviour. From a believer's perspective however, we know based upon what the bible teaches us, that homosexuality is a sin.

So the good behaviour you have in mind (biblically-based) is altogether different from that in Laurent's mind. We would do Laurent and others a terrible disservice if we did not speak against the consequences of sin.

The key word for today, in this post-modern age is tolerance. "Let me be whatever I want to be. There is no objective truth, nor any objective moral standards, so my lifestyle is fine cos it works for me." This is what we're up against in today's society, and it's our duty as children of God, to stand against the tide of this age and speak up to declare the truth. No, we shouldn't force it down people's throats, it's up to them to take it in, but we still gotta do our bit and lead the horse to the water.

I appreciate Joe's post. It soberly brings to us the reality that awaits those who do not repent and turn their hearts to God.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), June 17, 2004.

Olly and Joe are correct too Bill and address the orginal question that started the thread. Laurnt Didn't!

I'm sure everyone agrees with Laurents few words since your last post to this thread. But what does this have to do with the high price of fish in Japan? (Where Olly spent his homeymoon?)

-- - (David@excite.com), June 17, 2004.

Sorry Olly![Or where Olly spent his honeymoon, Taipei Taiwan]

Left out the "bullseye".

-- - (David@excite.com), June 17, 2004.

Hi David, nice of you to pop in 8-) My honeymoon (over one and a half years ago) was in Thailand (Phuket, Bangkok, and in Taiwan (Taipei and Gaoshung).

I shall be returning to Taipei in a few weeks to meet with some saints there. The "bullseye" is the human spirit, or more specifically the mingled spirit (1 cor 6:17) - the Spirit of God mingled and joined with the human spirit, in the very depths of our being for us to contact, receive, contain, experience, and enjoy Him that we may express Him.

How are you these days ? 8-)

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), June 17, 2004.

Oliver: Now this does not imply that we hate homosexual people

I never said you hate them !! __ But why they do exist or another extreme example , disabled persons , why they do exist ??

And indeed , I see no problem with someone who's homosexual and has a serious relation !! __ But even some of them are married to a woman to hide their personal identity , is that alright ?? __ I'm for 100% sure , such marriages are build on lies and never can work out !!

Joe: Non-believer...do all humans go "to heaven" or just some?

Sorry Joe , for me personal , death is the end !!

btw , Until now , it seems nobody could show real evidence of life after death , except for a few stories , but that's not acceptable as proof !!

David: Olly and Joe are correct too Bill and address the orginal question that started the thread. Laurnt Didn't!

How ??

But what does this have to do with the high price of fish in Japan? (Where Olly spent his homeymoon?)

What does this have to do with the original question ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), June 21, 2004.

Hello Laurent. Thanks for your response.

I don't think one can compare homosexuality with being disabled. Homosexuality is a sin, being disabled is not.

Your opinion is your own personal philosophy. What we are speaking are according to God's heart and God's feeling as He has revealed to us in the bible. If God says that fornication is a sin, we say amen to that. If God says that homosexuality is a sin, we say amen to that.

Would you expect us to abandon our faith in God's word, only to substitute it with our personal concepts and opinions which derive from a fallen sinful nature ?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), June 21, 2004.

Oliver ,

I never said you have to abandon your religion , it's only not my way of life , but ok , we both live in a free country , so .... !!

I only judge people on/by the behaviour of the person itself , not by/on their faith or even on/by their sexuality !!

I don't think one can compare homosexuality with being disabled. Homosexuality is a sin, being disabled is not.

Of course , you can't compare them with eachother , but I was only asking why both do exist ??

May I also asking , how do you know fornication is a sin ??

Or gay or lesbian (christians) will go to heaven ??

Or us people , how do you know we all do exist ??

Maybe a few weird questions , but interesting it seems !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), June 21, 2004.

"I only judge people on/by the behaviour of the person itself , not by/on their faith or even on/by their sexuality !!"

Yes Laurent, that's correct: you CAN only judge people on/by behavior... but as we've seen, that's what this whole discussion is about: how do we know any given behavior is bad/wrong and what the criteria is that allows us to decide that it is "bad".

Now some people may argue: "it's bad 'cause the bible says so" (*an argument from authority) and for them, that's enough. I suspect you don't buy this argument.

What argument do you buy? I imagine you base your moral judgments on a calculus of harm/harmless right? If something is always harmful...then it's "bad" and thus "wrong". It may not damn you but it's just not cool to knowingly do what is hurtful to self and others right?

Of course I could be a smart aleck and ask "why is it bad and therefore wrong to hurt other people huh?" What are you going to say "just because it is"?

In other words, while pooh poohing someone's "biblical based" argument, you have to have some other, better criteria for basing judgments...

You'd look silly (and unrational) to base morality on personal taste as in "well, for me X behavior is uncool". Morality, or the "ought to" about behavior shouldn't be so relative. After all, given 1 single human nature (we're all the same species) it'd only make sense that there really are some behaviors which lead everyone to health or illness...just as there are chemicals etc that invariably hurt or harm every human being on earth regardless of our subjective feelings or opinions.

If we base our moral (ought to) judgments on health - with the premise that health is good and illness is not... then logically we have to conclude that some BEHAVIOR that is unhealthy should be avoided. If a person freely chooses to do X behavior, knowing full well that it's unhealthy to self or someone else... then inescapably this is problematic and not a case of opinion.

I suppose also that you would agree that "health" includes different levels or qualities: physical, emotional, mental, social, intellectual, spiritual... a man could be physically unhealthy while being emotionally sound.

You could starve your body (unhealthy) for the sake of feeding your child and thus not be doing something "bad" at all - thus intentionality and circumstances have to be taken into account when we judge the morality of behaviors.

In the case of homosexuals, Catholics on this site have repeatedly made the big distinction between orientation (a mental disorder) and homosexual ACTS or behavior (categorically unhealthy biologically and thus sinful if freely and knowingly done).

If a person is mentally disordered, Catholics see that this renders their reason clouded and will less free, thus THEY are LESS guilty! Thus, should a heterosexual engage in sodomy it is actually worse! (Bet you haven't heard this before.) But while guilt goes up and down depending on one's mental health and strength of will power... the harm done remains the same.

For example: a person with a biological addiction finds abstaining from the fix a near heroic act - possible only with the utmost exertion of the mind and will. Such an act of selfcontrol becomes incredibly virtuous, a really heroically GOOD act. Whereas unaddicted people can abstain without much trouble at all! Healthy people who give into temptation when they could easily avoid it do really horrible BAD acts. Once they're hooked and addicted, sin and harm comes easier and easier...less thought, less will involved.

Obsessive Compulsive people are objectively unhealthy - "disordered" and their moral guilt is less than healthy people. But their compulsion is still unhealthy even if their guilt is less!

Homosexuality IS condemned in the bible, but it's not wrong because the bible says so or because people tend to think it's yucky. It's wrong as BEHAVIOR because it always and everywhere is biologically unhealthy and leads to worse health problems on emotional, social, and spiritual levels...

Even if the bible didn't say anything about it at all, it would STILL be harmful biologically, emotionally, socially, and spiritually.

No one wants their friends to be alcoholics, smoke addicts, or sex- addicts when these things will lead to disease and an early death. Thus far from being meanspirited kill joys, Catholics are telling people to abstain from gay lifestyles to save them here and hereafter.

It's paradoxical: if you honestly don't know a given behavior is killing you, you're still dying but aren't as morally guilty. But the gravest sin comes when you DO realize that this behavior is killing you and hurting others and yet you keep doing it anyway!

This is the great danger of today's gay sub-culture. Even with all the modern knowledge about STDs and AIDS, and knowing full well all the risks... many gays still engage in reckless behavior - reckless for their own health and for other people's.

Or do you, laurent, think it's not a moral issue at all to knowingly give someone AIDS? To knowingly, freely, go out of your way to infect someone with a deadly disease because you just don't want to bother with self-control or even being honest with them about your condition?

If that's not evil...not "bad" because it's harmful, then what could possibly be "bad"?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 21, 2004.

Now some people may argue: "it's bad 'cause the bible says so" (*an argument from authority) and for them, that's enough. I suspect you don't buy this argument.

Indeed , I don't buy such cheep arguments as , just because .... !!

What argument do you buy? I imagine you base your moral judgments on a calculus of harm/harmless right? If something is always harmful...then it's "bad" and thus "wrong". It may not damn you but it's just not cool to knowingly do what is hurtful to self and others right?

Of course I could be a smart aleck and ask "why is it bad and therefore wrong to hurt other people huh?" What are you going to say "just because it is"?

Let's say (extremely) , someone (famous) dies/get killed , I don't care !! __ Besides , why would I , I never have knew him/her !! ==> These are very cheap cold empty words !!

My choice , if I watch CNN , and they tell a (famous) person dies or there's a war going on , I wanna know why , and how ,'cause that gives me a better picture of the cause or maybe background !! __

Or , people tell you may not watch this program just because it's garbage !! __ I would ask , I'd like to know why ??

Or like , you have to do that or that to be cool or to be in , well , NO is my answer , 'cause cool or be in , is not a reason !! __ In this case , it's even a command !!

I suppose also that you would agree that "health" includes different levels or qualities: physical, emotional, mental, social, intellectual, spiritual... a man could be physically unhealthy while being emotionally sound.

Yes , but actually it doesn't even matter who or what we are , dead or alive , we're all the same !!

No one wants their friends to be alcoholics, smoke addicts, or sex- addicts when these things will lead to disease and an early death. Thus far from being meanspirited kill joys, Catholics are telling people to abstain from gay lifestyles to save them here and hereafter.

Yes , you have the right to tell people what is (morally) wrong !! __ But a protestant , maybe will give you another vision ??

I don't think you can compare homosexuality with , for example , alcoholism !! __ Alcoholics are addicts , so they're ill !!

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Diseases such as aids and otherones that can kill people:

It's not only "available" for homosexuals , everyone can get it !!

People with aids who still have sex , can get kill people , so , that means , they're committing a crime !!

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Of course , man & woman are necessary to get kids !!

But science develops , but that would nutty crazy !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), June 21, 2004.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

-- Mark (gayisadangerousword@2usethesedays.net), July 15, 2004.