Eternal Life

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http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2343.htm

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 09, 2004

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004

Answers

Faith,

You misunderstood Jesus statement, "Jesus said that he will lose none whom the Father has given Him."

This passage of scripture is in John 18:9 and does NOT refer to us today. It does refer to His apostles for John 18:8 states, "Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, LET THESE GO THEIR WAY," Jesus was CLEARLY speaking about the APOSTLES and NOT those who have obeyed Him since them. Scripture WAS fulfilled, NOT is CONTINUING to be fulfilled.

You wrote, "Truly saved people cannot lose this safety--it is a gift from God.., and we are to expect a long and difficult road in this life--but reward in the next."

You are WRONG Faith. We CAN lose salvation, unfortunately you have been DECEIVED. Paul had this to say concerning those who CLAIM that they CANNOT lose their salvation in Romans 11:21-23, "For if God did not spare the natural branches (the Jews), HE MAY NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Therefore CONSIDER THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And they also, IF they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

It is CLEAR that those who do NOT "continue in His goodness" WILL BE CUT OFF. This is only one passage of scripture that CLEARLY refutes your false doctrine that once one is saved they CANNOT lose their salvation.

God said in Revelation 21:7, "He who OVERCOMES shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son."

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


John 6

40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Words to the Jews

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


Romans 8 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


Explain those passages Kevin.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


Romans 8

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


"Romans 11:17-21 "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that t is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, ÇBranches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either."

This whole chapter talks, in a general sense, about the Jewish people losing their position as God's chosen people because of unbelief, and God opening salvation up to the Gentiles (although it actually always was open to them). This passage does not refer to individuals falling away, but the entire Jewish people. Today God has temporarily turned away from the Jews and is calling a people for His name from among the Gentile nations. The day will come when God will again turn to the Jewish nation to fulfill His promises to them. Verses 24-26 make this plain. Paul is speaking in a general sense, not in a personal sense. A careful reading of this chapter illustrates this. "

by RLM

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


Revelation 21:6-8 "Then He said to me, 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.'"

This passage contrasts the saved with the lost. The saved are overcomers (verse 7). The lost continue in their sin (verse 8). A twin doctrine to that of eternal security is the perseverance of the saints. The Bible plainly teaches that those who are truly born again will evidence their salvation and will continue on with the Lord (John 10:27-28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 6:4-9, 10:38; 1 John 3:3). The one who permanently falls away demonstrates that he did not belong to the Lord in the first place (Hebrews 12:5-8; 1 John 2:19). This passage is not talking about an act of sin but a way of life of sin. If this is referring to an act of sin, then no one can be saved, since even one sin can condemn someone to hell. It is clear from other passages that it is possible for a Christian to commit any act of sin, including idolatry and adultery (1 John 1:8-10). This is why believers are often warned not to commit these evils (1 Corinthians 6:18, 10:6, 14; 1 John 5:21).

Salvation requires perfection, and the only perfection a believer can ever have is that which is receive from Jesus Christ because of the propitiation He purchased on Calvary. Even one sin will keep a person out of Heaven, but believers do not have any sin in Christ. He has taken it all away forever.

by RLM

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


To Kevin..

But who doesn't continue in His goodness? True believers? I don't think so.., he gave a parenthetical example of who He was talking about when He said and likewise when an *unbeliever* turns to God and becomes a believer--he is grafted in....

It's all about belief and faith...

And no.., I wasn't refering to the verse you provided in Matt 18:9.

I was refering to the verses in John 6:35-40, where Jesus is speaking about all believers--all of those who come to him and believe in Him:

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

I don't think it could be any clearer than that : )

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


David quoted john 6:40 which states, "for this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will Have eternal life, and i myself will raise him up on the last day."

david quoted this verse because he believes this to affirm his Position of once someone is saved they cannot lose their salvation. This cannot be true for jesus was clearly speaking about the apostles In this verse. Please notice the words "everyone who beholds the son", Please explain to everyone david who today has seen jesus in person??? This verse clearly is speaking of the apostles for they saw the son And believed in him.

David continued and said, "words to the jews" and quoted john 6:41-44 Which states, "41 therefore the jews were grumbling about him, because He said, "i am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 they were Saying, "is not this jesus, the son of joseph, whose father and mother We know? How does he now say, 'i have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him; and i Will raise him up on the last day."

please notice that these words were in fact words to the jews, so These verses do not help david's case.

David wrote, "romans 8 30 and these whom he predestined, he also Called; and these whom he called, he also justified; and these whom he Justified, he also glorified."

this does not mean that all who are called will be saved. Matthew 20:16 states, "so the last will be first, and the first last. For many Are called, but few chosen."

David quotes romans 8:5-9 and romans 11:17-21 and states, "this whole Chapter talks, in a general sense, about the jewish people losing Their position as god's chosen people because of unbelief, and god Opening salvation up to the gentiles (although it actually always was Open to them). This passage does not refer to individuals falling Away, but the entire jewish people."

david clearly does not know what he is talking about for paul States in romans 11:13, "for i speak to you gentiles; inasmuch as i am An apostle to the gentiles, i magnify my ministry," paul clearly told The gentiles that they could fall away (for he was speaking to them, Not the jews as david alleges) for he contrasted the jews as the Branches and the gentiles as the wild olive tree. Paul said in romans 11:20, "do not be haughty, but fear." why make this statement if one Cannot lose their salvation??? Verse 21 once again clearly states that "for if god did not spare the natural branches (which is the jews), he May not spare you either." this was speaking of the gentiles and not The jews.

David wrote, "today god has temporarily turned away from the jews and Is calling a people for his name from among the gentile nations. The Day will come when god will again turn to the jewish nation to fulfill His promises to them. Verses 24-26 make this plain. Paul is speaking In a general sense, not in a personal sense. A careful reading of this Chapter illustrates this."

no, god has not turned away from the jews, they are the ones who Turned away from him. If one will read romans 11:23, god stated that If the jews did not continue in unbelief, they would be grafted in. To Claim that there will be a future day of salvation for the jews is not What the new testament teaches. Romans 9:27-28 states, "isaiah also Cries out concerning israel: "though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved, for he Will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth."

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


Kevin.,

You are deliberately confusing the issue.

Clearly., Jesus, in these verses, is speaking about all believers..

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (this is not just a reference to the original twelve disciples--but to all who come to Him)

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Special election is not the issue...that's another point for another thread.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


Faith,

You wrote, "but who doesn't continue in his goodness? True believers? I don't think so.., he gave a parenthetical example of who he was Talking about when he said and likewise when an *unbeliever* turns to God and becomes a believer--he is grafted in...."

True believers can and do turn away from god. If unbelievers can turn To god, then believers can turn away from god. To claim that one Cannot turn away from god is saying that one does not have free will.

You wrote, "it's all about belief and faith..."

Actually it is about faith and works.

You wrote, "and no.., i wasn't refering to the verse you provided in Matt 18:9. I was refering to the verses in john 6:35-40, where jesus Is speaking about all believers--all of those who come to him and Believe in him: then jesus declared, "i am the bread of life. He who Comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never Be thirsty. But as i told you, you have seen me and still you do not Believe. All that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever Comes to me i will never drive away. For i have come down from heaven Not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is The will of him who sent me, that i shall lose none of all that he has Given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my father's will is That everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have Eternal life, and i will raise him up at the last day."

I didn't quote matthew 18:9, i quoted john 18:9. John 18:9 is clearly A fulfillment of john 6:39 for jesus states in the latter verse, "that The saying might be fulfilled which he spoke" and what did he speak.

Contrast

John 6:39, "this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he Has given me i should lose nothing."

With

John 18:9, "of those whom you gave me i have lost none."

This was clearly a fulfillment of jesus words. You can either believe God, or you can believe faith, the choice is yours to make.

Nothing can be clearer than this faith.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


Faith,

I am NOT "deliberately confusing the issue."

This is your opinion Faith however it is not the truth.

I proved to you in my last post that you do NOT know what you are talking about and Jesus was NOT referring to ALL believers when He made that statment in John chapter 6.

I was NOT talking about "special election" I was merely pointing out that when you made the statement "Jesus said that he will lose none whom the Father has given Him." that you MISUNDERSTOOD what Jesus was saying and that is all.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


Kevin.,

Please explain how these verses are only speaking about the 12 disciples:

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

(Is Jesus only addressing the disciples in this discourse?)

But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

(Again--is Jesus addressing only his disciples here too??)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

(Again--he is only addressing the disciples here?)

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day

(Only the 12 disciples will be raised on thae last day?).

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

(So., this refers only to the 12 disciples when Jesus says that everyone who looks to the Son?? And again., only the 12 will be raised on the last day?)

I think you ought to reread for clarification. This verse is oddly worded if in fact Jesus is only speaking to His disciples....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


Faith,

Were Jesus words that He spoke in John 6:39 FULFILLED in John 18:9???

Yes or No.

If No, please EXPLAIN what words Jesus spoke earlier fulfilled John 18:9??? Scripture please.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


Kevin., Just be honest and answer my question., Is Jesus only addressing and refering to His 12 disciples in John 6?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


Kevin, The first part of that verse you quoted in Mat 20:16 is ok, but the second part is in Mat 22:14

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


v.44 "no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him; and i Will raise him up on the last day." If the Father draws you, Kevin, you will be raised on the last day. There's no escaping this verse.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


And Matthew 22:14 goes along with my view, not yours. The fact that you used it only shows that you just pulled that verse out of context.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


Kevin--let me ask you this.,

Who are Jesus' sheep? Only His disciples?? I agree that the disciples are Jesus sheep too--but Jesus Himself says He has other sheep, from another pen--who are they? Disciples yes--the original 12--no.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

I agree that the original 12 are included in *those who God gave to Jesus*--but they are certainly not the only disciples. We are all His disciples--all given to Jesus because we believed. God knew us in advance because of His forknowledge.., and He predestined us to belong to Jesus from before the creation of the world.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


Faith,

You wrote, "Please explain how these verses are only speaking about the 12 disciples: Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (Is Jesus only addressing the disciples in this discourse?)"

I didn't mention the other verses in my replies to you. In John 6:35 Jesus IS speaking to the Jews (which includes the disciples) for in John 6:1-3, Jesus is on a mountain in Galilee.

You continued in John 6:36, "But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. (Again--is Jesus addressing only his disciples here too??)"

Is Jesus speaking to ALL believers in this verse??? Certainly not. Who is alive today that has SEEN JESUS??? Jesus was speaking ONLY to the Jews and the disciples in this verse.

You continued with John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (Again--he is only addressing the disciples here?)"

Jesus did NOT "drive away" anyone however Judas WAS lost. Did Jesus drive him away??? No, Satan is the one who tempted Judas and scripture was FULFILLED that states in Acts 1:25, "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." BoldLooks like you skipped John 6:38 and you continued with John 6:39, "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day (Only the 12 disciples will be raised on thae last day?)."

John 6:38 is CLEARLY fulfilled in John 18:9.

You continued with John 6:40, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (So., this refers only to the 12 disciples when Jesus says that everyone who looks to the Son?? And again., only the 12 will be raised on the last day?) I think you ought to reread for clarification. This verse is oddly worded if in fact Jesus is only speaking to His disciples...."

The NKJV states "everyone who sees the Son" The KJV states, "every one which seeth the Son" The ASV states, "every one that beholdeth the Son"

The NIV is NOT a good translation of this verse.

Again Faith, is there anyone ALIVE today that has SEEN Jesus???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


You are not being honest Kevin..,

Clearly., Jesus will not lose anyone who has been saved by His blood-- meaning all believers--all of his disciples, not just the original twelve disciples but everyone who looks to the Son.

And you know what--I have seen Jesus. God revealed Him to me through His Holy Word....

I think you have a bad translation myself--you must, since you seem not to understand simple revelation. I think you have a bad translation myself--you must, since you seem not to understand simple revelation.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


David,

You wrote, "And Matthew 22:14 goes along with my view, not yours."

How can this agree with your view if those who are saved CANNOT lose their salvation??? Matthew 20:16 and Matthew 22:14 AGREE with my view that one CAN lose their salvation for there are MANY called but FEW chosen. This goes right along with what Jesus said in Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for MANY, I say to you, WILL SEEK TO ENTER and WILL NOT BE ABLE."

You make another accusation when you wrote, "The fact that you used it only shows that you just pulled that verse out of context."

Please explain HOW I am guilty of pulling the verse out of context???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


How about answering my post Faith instead of making an accusation that you CANNOT prove???

You wrote, "You are not being honest Kevin.., Clearly., Jesus will not lose anyone who has been saved by His blood-- meaning all believers--all of his disciples, not just the original twelve disciples but everyone who looks to the Son."

Faith, you are indeed MISTAKEN if you think that EVERYONE who believes in Jesus will be saved. I noticed you didn't even bother to answer my first post where it is PLAINLY revealed that the GENTILES who were grafted in as a wild olive tree COULD be CUT OFF which means they would be LOST if they did not continue in God's goodness.

Jesus CLEARLY states in John 15:6 that those who do NOT abide in Jesus are CAST OUT as a branch and WITHERED, and then they are thrown into the FIRE and they are BURNED.

You wrote, "And you know what--I have seen Jesus. God revealed Him to me through His Holy Word...."

No actually Faith you have NOT seen Jesus for scripture CLEARLY reveals in John 20:29, "Blessed are those WHO HAVE NOT SEEN and yet have believed."

You wrote, "I think you have a bad translation myself--you must, since you seem not to understand simple revelation."

Once again Faith, you PROVE by your very words that you do NOT know what you are talking about. I quoted 3 different translations that SHOW that John 6:40 is speaking to those who have SEEN JESUS. The NIV is a BAD translation of this verse along with many more.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


Context is everything Kevin..,

Matt 22:14: "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

In context---

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

In this context--we can understand that all have been invited, though not all receive the invitation with gladness or come the way they are suppose to--which is by the blood of Jesus Christ. Many will try to enter by another way.., but they will not be accepted on their terms-- just as this guest came wearing the wrong clothing., which represents the idea that he wasn't clothed in Christ.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


Gentiles are grafted in as in they were invited--but that never meant that they would all receive Jesus....those who do not believe in Jesus will be rooted out/ungrafted--or tossed out of the wedding hall.

Only those who come by God's plan--which is through Jesus Christ., can see eternal life.

Always--it boils down to the difference between true faith--true believers., and those who do not believe.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 10, 2004.


David wrote, "v.44 "no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him; and i Will raise him up on the last day." If the Father draws you, Kevin, you will be raised on the last day. There's no escaping this verse."

Did the father DRAW Judas???

Yes or No???

Jesus said in John 17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost EXCEPT the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

Jesus DID lose Judas and if NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, them HOW was Judas able to come to Jesus??? Jesus CLEARLY states in John 6:70-71 that He CHOSE the twelve which INCLUDED Judas.

"Did I not CHOOSE YOU, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, BEING ONE OF THE TWELVE."

Faith wrote, "Kevin--let me ask you this., Who are Jesus' sheep? Only His disciples?? I agree that the disciples are Jesus sheep too--but Jesus Himself says He has other sheep, from another pen--who are they? Disciples yes--the original 12--no."

We are NOT talking about "Who are Jesus sheep" now are we Faith??? We are talking SPECIFICALLY about the verses you quoted in John chapter 6. How about answering my post instead of going off on another tangent and trying to confuse the issue with something that doesn't even come close to the subject we are discussing.

Faith wrote, ""I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30"

These verses are present tense, IF the sheep follow (verse 27) they will NOT be lost. Nothing can separate us from God EXCEPT our OWN UNFAITHFULNESS. What happens to the sheep who REFUSE to hear and follow??? Sheep CAN and DO stray from the shepherd's protection.

Faith wrote, "I agree that the original 12 are included in *those who God gave to Jesus*--but they are certainly not the only disciples. We are all His disciples--all given to Jesus because we believed. God knew us in advance because of His forknowledge.., and He predestined us to belong to Jesus from before the creation of the world."

I never stated that "the original 12" were the ONLY disciples now did I Faith??? The POINT I am making is the statement Jesus made that of those the Father gave Him that He would lose none does NOT agree with your interpretation. Scripture PLAINLY reveals this saying of Jesus was FULFILLED in John 18:9. If John 18:9 is NOT the fulfillment of John 6:39d, then what saying of Jesus does John 18:9 fulfill???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


Judas was lost Kevin.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


Faith,

You wrote, "Gentiles are grafted in as in they were invited--but that never meant that they would all receive Jesus....those who do not believe in Jesus will be rooted out/ungrafted--or tossed out of the wedding hall."

Please explain why God made the statement in Romans 11:20, "Do not be haughty, but fear" if it were not possible for the gentiles to be lost??? Please explain how one who does NOT believe in Jesus will be "rooted out/ungrafted--or tossed out of the wedding hall" if they were NEVER believers in the first place???

You wrote, "Only those who come by God's plan--which is through Jesus Christ., can see eternal life."

Actually ONLY those who OBEY THE GOSPEL will be saved. (See Romans 1:16).

You wrote, "Always--it boils down to the difference between true faith--true believers., and those who do not believe."

It boils down to those who DO the will of God versus those who do NOT do the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-23).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


David,

Yes Judas was lost however, please explain how Judas was able to come to Jesus (he was an apostle) in light of John 6:44 which states, "No one can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him"???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


David,

You wrote, "My Answer to your question is that Judas wasn't effectually called from the heart. He was lost, and never saved."

I KNOW that Judas was LOST, but where does it state in scripture that "Judas wasn't effectually called from the heart"???

Did Jesus CHOOSE Judas???

Was he an apostle???

How could he come to Jesus if the father did NOT call him???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 10, 2004.


"please notice that these words were in fact words to the jews" - kevin

Why do you say that? Would you care to offer any proof in this assertion??

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.


I wrote, "please notice that these words were in fact words to the jews"

To which David replied, "Why do you say that? Would you care to offer any proof in this assertion??"

This is NOT an assertion David, this is a FACT. I did offer PROOF in my earlier post to Faith when I wrote, "In John 6:35 Jesus IS speaking to the Jews (which includes the disciples) for in John 6:1-3, Jesus is on a mountain in Galilee." Please go back and re-read the text.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 11, 2004.


Kevin..,

It really annoys me that the whole thread has been driven so off- course like this.

You have brought up all sorts of things that simply derail the topic.

Elpidio and I were talking about salvation meaning we were delivered from the power of sin and the penalty of it. He feels we are earning salvation as we walk the Christian road, following jesus. I believe that we need salvation first in order to do that. His remark to me was that I better be careful not to trip and stumble or I could lose my salvation.

That is where I pointed out that none of those who have been given to Jesus can be lost--as per Scripture.

Your argument that those words were only meant for the disciples or even for the disciples and Jews who were alive at that moment is ridiculous.

God's Word is spoken from the point of eternity....and it is given to all of us.

When Jesus says that *whoever looks to the Son will see eternal life and not be lost* He was addressing those within hearing distance as well as all generations to come.

Jesus prays for future believers:

"My prayer is not for them alone (the original disciples). I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world (speaking of all believers). "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known (future tense) in order that the love you have for me may be in them (future believers) and that I myself may be in them."

John 17:20-26

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 11, 2004.


Faith, I made this new thread so Kevin can continue the discussion here. As to your post with Elpidio, I deleted those messsages there so you can continue on.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.

I think Elpidio was done anyway...but thanks. I think Kevin was done as well ;)

-- ("faith01@myway.com), June 11, 2004.

I am working on finals and make-ups, faith.

So I am done about htis thread but not the subtopic we discussed about Bible contradictions.

I will discuss it in later threads.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 11, 2004.


Faith,

You wrote, "It really annoys me that the whole thread has been driven so off- course like this."

You were the one who drove the thread "so off-course" when you wrote, "Jesus said that he will lose none whom the Father has given Him." This verse CLEARLY does NOT speak of salvation and I showed you how you were mistaken in your interpretation of this verse.

You wrote, "You have brought up all sorts of things that simply derail the topic."

It is nice to make an accusation, however I didn't see you making any attempt to get the subject back on track or post in a different thread now did you Faith???

You wrote, "Elpidio and I were talking about salvation meaning we were delivered from the power of sin and the penalty of it. He feels we are earning salvation as we walk the Christian road, following jesus. I believe that we need salvation first in order to do that. His remark to me was that I better be careful not to trip and stumble or I could lose my salvation."

I know what you and Elpidio were discussing and the point you made concerning Jesus losing none that the Father gave Him is NOT what the Scriptures teach concerning salvation.

You wrote, "That is where I pointed out that none of those who have been given to Jesus can be lost--as per Scripture."

You may have pointed this out, but you most certainly did NOT prove your point through Scripture.

You wrote, "Your argument that those words were only meant for the disciples or even for the disciples and Jews who were alive at that moment is ridiculous."

It is obvious Faith that you have a problem understanding what has been written. You may think that my argument was "ridiculous" but that is NOT what the Scriptures state. You NEVER answered my request when I stated that John 18:9 is clearly a fulfillment of John 6:39.

You wrote, "God's Word is spoken from the point of eternity....and it is given to all of us."

Yes, I agree that the word of God is given to ALL of us but this does NOT mean that Jesus will save ALL who come to Him.

You wrote, "When Jesus says that *whoever looks to the Son will see eternal life and not be lost* He was addressing those within hearing distance as well as all generations to come."

You have had this verse EXPLAINED to you that this verse CLEARLY states that those who SEE the Son which means those who were alive when Jesus was on this earth are those whom He is addressing and NOT all generations to come as you falsely allege.

You wrote, "Jesus prays for future believers:"

Yes, Jesus did indeed pray for future believers, but He did NOT state that those future believers would SEE Him NOR did He state that none would be lost as you claim.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 11, 2004.


The only fulfillment I see is the one of Judas from John 17:12.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.


John 17 (NASB)

The High Priestly Prayer

1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.


Kevin,

We "behold the Son" also, hearing His Words.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.


On what grounds do we dismiss John 6:40 from the NIV? Because Kevin says so? Because it doesn't fit Kevins' theology? What makes it a bad translation?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.

John 6:40 :: New International Version (NIV) For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:40 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB) "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:40 :: The Message (MSG) This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time."

John 6:40 :: Amplified Bible (AMP) For this is My Father's will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

John 6:40 :: New Living Translation (NLT) For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life--that I should raise them at the last day."

John 6:40 :: King James Version (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40 :: New Life Version (NLV) He wants everyone who sees the Son to put his trust in Him and have life that lasts forever. I will raise that one up on the last day.'

John 6:40 :: English Standard Version (ESV) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

John 6:40 :: Contemporary English Version (CEV) My Father wants everyone who sees the Son to have faith in him and to have eternal life. Then I will raise them to life on the last day.

John 6:40 :: New King James Version (NKJV) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:40 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) And this is the will of Him that sent Me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day."

John 6:40 :: American Standard Version (ASV) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40 :: Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) My Father wants everyone who sees his Son and believes in him to live for ever. I will raise him up on the last day.'

John 6:40 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT) and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age- during, and I will raise him up in the last day.'

John 6:40 :: Darby Translation (DARBY) For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40 :: Wycliffe New Testament (WYC) And this is the will of my Father that sent me, that each man that seeth the Son, and believeth in him, have everlasting life; and I shall again-raise him in the last day.

John 6:40 :: New International Reader's Version (NIRV) My Father wants all who look to the Son and believe in him to have eternal life. I will raise them up on the last day."

John 6:40 :: New International Version - UK (NIV-UK) For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.


Kevin.,

Did you completely ignore the Scripture which defies everything you claim?

You said: Yes, Jesus did indeed pray for future believers, but He did NOT state that those future believers would SEE Him NOR did He state that none would be lost as you claim.

Jesus says that he will lose none that the Father has given Him. The question you need to resolve is this: "Did the Father give future believers to Jesus as well?

The answer is below.

Jesus prays for future believers:

"My prayer is not for them alone (the original disciples). I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world (speaking of all believers). "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known (future tense) in order that the love you have for me may be in them (future believers) and that I myself may be in them."

John 17:20-26

Also Kevin--your idea about *see* is not an important proof for you because by *see* can mean more than just a visual.... We can see a concept in our minds eye--we can *see* a revelation in the Scriptures etc... I see Jesus in the Word of God....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 11, 2004.



BTW Kevin, I've had enough OF YOUR CAPITAL LETTER REPLIES that include the phrase "ANSWER MY QUESTION".

Firstly, nobody has to answer any of your questions.

Secondly, that is considered rude and I'm asking you to stop this. I'm no exception to this rule, and if the other moderator find it necessary to delete any of my messages, then so be it. Rude posts will not be tolerated.

Third, your EMPHASIS is quite annoying. Every few words is ok, but I feel you abuse this sometimes. There are other ways of placing emphasis on a word, like bold, italics, underline, etc (that are less annoying btw).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.


I do not see where the NIV in v.40 is in error.

Main Entry: be·hold Pronunciation: bi-'hOld Function: verb Inflected Form(s): be·held /-'held/; -hold·ing Etymology: Middle English, to keep, behold, from Old English behealdan, from be- + healdan to hold transitive senses 1 : to perceive through sight or apprehension : SEE 2 : to gaze upon : OBSERVE intransitive senses -- used in the imperative especially to call attention - be·hold·er noun


-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.

David,

I did't say that we were to "dismiss John 6:40 from the NIV" now did I??? The NIV is a bad translation because it is a paraphrase translation that is the reason and not because it doesn't fit MY theology.

If you don't like the use of my CAPITAL letters, that is unfortunate. Please explain to me what is the difference between using CAPITAL letters for EMPHASIS and using bold for emphasis??? There is NO difference is there David. Just because you don't like the way I write does not mean that I have to change my style just because you think that it is rude??? I see nothing in your forum rules that state that one cannot use CAPITAL letters. You can continue to delete my posts as you did last night, but that will NOT change the way that I write.

You say that you don't have to answer my questions, well this works both ways David. You have the gall to refuse to answer my questions but yet you expect me to answer yours??? I have answered most of your questions to the best of my ability and just because you don't like my writing style is this the best that you can do is to start deleting my posts and say that you can't take the way I write?? Talk about being lame!!!

Faith,

No, I didn't completely "ignore" Scripture which you claim "defies" everything I claim.

I wrote, "Yes, Jesus did indeed pray for future believers, but He did NOT state that those future believers would SEE Him NOR did He state that none would be lost as you claim.

To which you replied, "Jesus says that he will lose none that the Father has given Him. The question you need to resolve is this: "Did the Father give future believers to Jesus as well?"

I have shown you through Scripture where you are wrong Faith and yet to date you have not answered my post, why is this the case???

I also have noticed that you have not given Scriptural references to back up your claim that Jesus will "not lose any future believers". Where is this written Faith???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 12, 2004.


Faith, I sent you an email.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 12, 2004.

Kevin..,

No offense or anything--but you give yourself far too much credit.

You have not shown me any such thing.

Jesus said that He will lose none that the Father has given Him. And that last post I made to you, included Jesus' prayer for future believers in where Jesus refers to them (future believers) as being part of *those that the Father has given Him*.

Let Scripture define Scripture--and put two and two together.

You seem to want to isolate only those verses that say what you want to hear--at the exclusion of verses that refute your preconceived notions.

That is no way to understand God or His Word to us.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 12, 2004.


Faith,

You can claim that I have not shown you any such thing, however all one has to do is go back and re-read my posts to show that this is not the truth. I have shown you what God has plainly revealed in His word and you have rejected it.

You can continue to believe what you want however, your view does not agree with the word of God. I am still waiting on these supposed verses that "refute" my "preconceived notions."

Yes, Jesus did pray for the future believers, however, His prayer was that we would all be one. There is nothing and you have yet to provide Scriptural proof that Jesus ever said that the statement He made concerning those the Father gave to Him applies to believers today. I have asked you several times to provide Scriptural references to prove your point and you still have not done any such thing.

Your belief in once saved always saved has blinded you to the truth of God's word.

Salvation is conditioned upon our continued obedience to God after one has obeyed the gospel.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 12, 2004.



Kevin

You must have ignored this...,

I provided the Scripture that shows that Jesus says future believers are given to him by the Father. I highlighted the exact phrase.

Jesus prays for future believers:

"My prayer is not for them alone (the original disciples). I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world (speaking of all believers). "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known (future tense) in order that the love you have for me may be in them (future believers) and that I myself may be in them."

John 17:20-26 *******************

Here is one of the Scripture verses (again), that tells us that Jesus says he will lose none whom the Father has given Him:

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:35-40

There is nothing complicated about this very clear Scripture....

-- ("faith01@myway.com), June 12, 2004.


Kevin quotes Jesus in John 17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost EXCEPT the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

John 17:12 is the fulfillment of John 18:9, not John 6:39.

John 17 (NASB)

The High Priestly Prayer

1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 18

Judas Betrays Jesus

1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples.
2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
6 So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene."
8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,"
9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."
10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

Kevin said,"Jesus DID lose Judas and if NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, them HOW was Judas able to come to Jesus???"

And earlier he asked,"Did the father DRAW Judas??? Yes or No???"

No he wasn't drawn by the Father. His denial of the inward covenantal sign proved that he was never drawn.

Kevin said,"Jesus CLEARLY states in John 6:70-71 that He CHOSE the twelve which INCLUDED Judas. "

Chosen for ministry, not salvation. Jesus choosing for ministry does not parallel his choosing for salvation.. because those he calls come.. and as Jesus himself identified Judas...the devil won't come :-)

"I did't say that we were to "dismiss John 6:40 from the NIV" now did I??? " - Kevin, June 11

The day before:

"The NIV is a BAD translation of this verse along with many more. " - Kevin, June 10

"The NIV is NOT a good translation of this verse..." - Kevin, June 10

Well, you are clearly not advocating this verse from the NIV.

Merriam-Websters dictionary defines the word 'dismiss' as:

1. to permit or cause to leave
2. to remove from position or service
3a. to reject serious consideration of
3b. to put out of judicial consideration.

You later replied,"The NIV is a bad translation because it is a paraphrase translation"

John 6:40 :: New International Version (NIV) For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:40 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB) "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:40 :: King James Version (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, most of the NIV is paraphrased, but John 6:44 doesn't seem so. Would you explain how the NIV differs in John 6:44 from the NASB and KJV (Which, btw, are not dynamic translations but formal ones)?

"Just because you don't like the way I write does not mean that I have to change my style just because you think that it is rude??? " - Kevin

Did I say that? Please cut and paste those very words, because I clearly remember saying that your style was annoying, not rude. I said your phrase "Answer my question" was rude. Which I know that you didn't say the word 'question', but 'post', which includes your questions :-)

Examples of this on this thread only (doesn't include messages deleted):

"How about answering my post Faith..." (To Faith)

"How about answering my post instead of going off..." (To Faith)

Many more examples can be found on other threads.

"I see nothing in your forum rules that state that one cannot use CAPITAL letters" - Kevin

You're right, they don't. But that's not what I was refering to when I posted the link to the rules.

"Please explain to me what is the difference between using CAPITAL letters for EMPHASIS and using bold for emphasis??? There is NO difference is there David." - Kevin

One's bold, the other is not :-)

"you don't like my writing style is this the best that you can do is to start deleting my posts and say that you can't take the way I write?? Talk about being lame!!!" - Kevin

Did I ever say that is why I deleted your posts? No, I deleted them for breaking the forum rules.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 13, 2004.


Faith,

I didn't ignore the Scripture that you posted, please notice that Jesus prayer was that the future believers would be ONE. Those who are in denominations DISREGARD Jesus words and make a MOCKERY of Jesus prayer for He prayed for UNITY and not DIVISION. It was Jesus desire that they (who believe in Him) would be with Him. This passage does NOT say what you want it to say that they WILL be with Him. I suppose that we will just have to "agree to disagree" as you have stated before. I will not change my view, nor will you change yours.

Yes, those who come to Jesus, He will NEVER drive away but that does not mean that we cannot drive ourselves away from Him. There is also nothing complicated about those who believe can CEASE to have faith in Him.

David,

Actually, John 17:12 is the fulfillment of Psalm 41:9 and Psalm 109:8. John 18:9 IS the fulfillment of John 6:39.

If Judas wasn't drawn by the Father, then please tell us HOW Judas was able to be an Apostle???

I wasn't talking about salvation for Judas, I was asking wheether or not he was called.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 15, 2004.


Sorry Kevin..,

But Jesus does indeed say that he can lose NONE that the father has given Him.

And we see in Jesus' prayer for future believers, that they indeed are counted among *those* whom the Father has given Jesus.

Jesus says so:

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Jesus prays for future believers: "My prayer is not for them alone (the original disciples). I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. (speaking of all believers). "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known (future tense) in order that the love you have for me may be in them (future believers) and that I myself may be in them."

Why do you ignore this??

-- ("faith01@myway.com), June 15, 2004.


Faith,

I have told you and will continue to tell you John 18:9 IS the fulfillment of John 6:39.

In John 17:1, Jesus is speaking of His disciples the Apostles.

In Jesus prayer for future believers in John 17:20, He also prayed that the future believers would ALL be ONE.

In John 17:24, Jesus returns to speaking of the Apostles, NOT the future believers.

24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me (Jesus is speaking of His Apostles, there is NO mention this also applies to future believers) may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it (through the Apostles word, the New Testament See 1 John 4:6), that the love with which You loved Me may be in them (through the Apostles word, the New Testament), and I in them."

God "desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:4), so does this mean that ALL will be saved???

According to your doctrine, ALL who come to Jesus WILL be saved.

Are you advocating that ALL men will be saved.

If God desires that ALL men be saved is this not giving ALL men to Jesus???

If not, why not???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 15, 2004.


I agree on what you said to faith , Kevin, with regard to being called by God. Your example of Judas was good.

Was Jesus able to save Judas??? Only God knows!!! Yet, he was called, as you said. So that in essence means we can lose our salvation after being called.

As to the psalms being fulfilled? Well, it's open to interpretattion. Most psalms deal with King David's own times, not Jesus'.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 15, 2004.


Romans 8 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 15, 2004.

So Judas was justified, David?

What about Demas?(former friend of Paul)

What about Saphira? (Acts 5)

We are not guarranteed salvation,if we refuse it, we are promised salvation, even when we don't see it.

The Christian yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 15, 2004.


No,

Judas was lost. Judas was not saved. You may continue to ignore God's promises, and you may continue to bring up all sorts of straw man arguements in attempt to deny God's promises, but it won't change a thing.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 15, 2004.


Straw man arguments David??? Hardly.

Once again, we are NOT talking about Judas salvation, we are talking about whether or not he was called.

If he wasn't called by God, then HOW could he have been an Apostle of Jesus Christ???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 15, 2004.


The above post of mine is aimed at Elpidio, not Kevin.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 15, 2004.

Kevin aswered for me. Since I agree with his answer...I aswered already, David.

We can lose salvation, even the Man of Yahweh.

There is the story of a man of Yahweh who told Jeroboam about the evil that Yahweh was going to bring against his family.

Taken from the Blue Bible King James Version (KJV) 1 Kings - Chapter 13

1Ki 13:1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.

1Ki 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

1Ki 13:3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This [is] the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that [are] upon it shall be poured out.

1Ki 13:4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.

1Ki 13:5 The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.

1Ki 13:6 And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as [it was] before.

1Ki 13:7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

1Ki 13:8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

1Ki 13:9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

1Ki 13:10 So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.

1Ki 13:11 Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.

1Ki 13:12 And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.

1Ki 13:13 And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the ass. So they saddled him the ass: and he rode thereon,

1Ki 13:14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, [Art] thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I [am].

1Ki 13:15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

1Ki 13:16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

1Ki 13:17 For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

1Ki 13:18 He said unto him, I [am] a prophet also as thou [art]; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. [But] he lied unto him.

1Ki 13:19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.

1Ki 13:20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:

1Ki 13:21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,

1Ki 13:22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which [the LORD] did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

1Ki 13:23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, [to wit], for the prophet whom he had brought back.

1Ki 13:24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

1Ki 13:25 And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told [it] in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

1Ki 13:26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard [thereof], he said, It [is] the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him.

1Ki 13:27 And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled [him].

1Ki 13:28 And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.

1Ki 13:29 And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

1Ki 13:30 And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, [saying], Alas, my brother!

1Ki 13:31 And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God [is] buried; lay my bones beside his bones:

1Ki 13:32 For the saying which he cried by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which [are] in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass.

1Ki 13:33 After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became [one] of the priests of the high places.

300 years Later, David Ortiz, King Josiah came and destroyed the altar.

If I don't do what Yahweh sent me to do, I would end up the same as that man of Yahweh: eaten by the lions of this world.

There is much to learn, a lot to learn. Prophecy isi still alive, whether you like it or not.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh



-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 16, 2004.


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