Pelagianism derives its name from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome, though he was British by birth. It is a heresy dealing with the nature of man. Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. He denied original sin, the doctrine that we have inherited a sinful nature from Adam. He said that Adam only hurt himself when he fell and all of his descendents were not affected by Adam's sin. Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God. He taught that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will and rational thought. God's grace, then, is merely an aid to help individuals come to Him. Pelagianism fails to understand man's nature and weakness. We are by nature sinners (Eph. 2:3; Psalm 51:5). We all have sinned because sin entered the world through Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12, NIV). Therefore, we are unable to do God's will (Rom. 6:16; 7:14). We were affected by the fall of Adam, contrary to what Pelagius taught. Pelagius was condemned by the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus and excommunicated in 417 A.D. by Pope Innocent I.

By Matthew Slick

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 30, 2004

Answers

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 30, 2004.

David, I'm curious, why do you rely on the Catholic Church's authority for excommunicating this guy? If all Christians have the right and ability to read Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and interpret it (supposedly) according to God's guidance, who are you to say that this guy is wrong? All you can do is throw Scriptures back and forth at each other. But how do you know you can trust this Ecumenical Church Council, and not, say, the Council of Trent? If you do not trust the authority of the Catholic Church, what right do you have to declare that anyone is heretical if they can provide Scriptural "proof" for their beliefs?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

First of all, this was not written by me. Seconldy, I think you should stop jumping to conclusions Emily. I just posted this because it gives a brief description of it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 30, 2004.

Also,

Posting a fact DOES NOT make me "rely on the Catholic Church's authority".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 30, 2004.

David, I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions. However, the statement of yours shown below from this thread made me come to the conclusion that you agree that Pelagianism is a heresy. I am asking you, if you agree that it's a heresy, on what authority are you basing that statement? How is that any different from the beliefs of any other Protestant church that differ from your own?

David said: (on linked thread) Kevin, I'm afraid that you are deep in Pelagian heresy.

This statement implies that you believe Pelagianism is a heresy. On what basis do you say this?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

The Bible.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 30, 2004.

Emily said,"However, the statement of yours shown below from thread made me come to the conclusion that you agree that Pelagianism is a heresy. "

Emily, that is not the conclusion you jumped to. You started talking about me and "rely[ing] on the Catholic Church's authority for excommunicating [Pelagius]?"

And then you went on more about the Roman churches 'authority' and subconsciously (or consciously) attacked Sola Scriptura and placed a need for an "infallible interpreter".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 31, 2004.

David, if you believe that Pelagianism is a heresy you are relying on the Catholic Church's authority to say so, or else some other authority. In the second post I asked what authority, if not the Catholic Church. You claim the Bible, but this cannot be true since the Bible never states "Pelagianism is a heresy."

Please define how you determine, what is a heresy?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 31, 2004.

"...the Bible never states "Pelagianism is a heresy." - Emily

This is an irrelevant argument. Although it is correct that the Bible never mentions this, to say it's false because of that is very unsound reasoning.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 31, 2004.

Emily asked,"Please define how you determine, what is a heresy?"

Sorry Emily, this is not really a discussion I want to get into right now. Perhaps Elpidio, Zarove, Luke, or Faith might help you on this.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 31, 2004.

Those in power or in the majority treat their opponents as heretics, Emily. Catholics are more intolerant of dissent.

From 1980-1990 Cardinal ratzinger was able to silence Liberation Theologians and priests, liberals in the church,....

More than 90% of priests now follow John Paul's line of orthodoxy.

Think about it: in 325 the Catholic Trinitarians won the day over the Arians and Semi-Arians. These were dispossed of their churches, beat up, killed,...

When Constantine died, he was a semi-Arian, baptized by Bishop Eusebius, a semi-Arian. His children became Arians. They were more tolerant of Catholics, except for Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria.

The Catholics joined forces with the Pagan emperor Julian against the Arians.

When Theodosius embraced Catholicism, be banished, killed, and dispossed all Arians.

Since then, there was a connection between rulers and the Catholic Church to keep the orthodox line.

Now that the world is secular, the Catholic church is beginning to suffer from losses in the faithful. It doesn't have the power to call any one a heretic. Now prefers the word schismatic or separated. For every convert to Catholicism like you, 3 leave.

That is why the Pope has never aswered my letters, even though he is acquainted with them.

He is playing the game of sooner or later he will quit and be back as Catholic.

It may have worked before when the Church held sway, but not now. The Church has lost its monopoly on the truth.

It started with Peter Waldo and the Waldenses im 1179 AD.Church Still exists today. They are more Calvinist in theology. Waldenses in the Catholic Encyclopedia Their original statement of belief

They influence the Bohemian Brothers and their leader John Husinac (Huss). Huss was burned in 1415 by his church still exists.

Huss influenced Martin Luther, Calvin, and Swingli.

The rest is history.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 01, 2004.

I think Pelagius was right to a certain extent:

Adam brings no death to people in the flesh. That means, anything made of flesh has to die sooner or later. Adam sinning or not has nothing to do with this.

Then what I think Pelagius was trying to get at was being dead before God. By disobeying God Yahweh, a person separates himself from him. Thus slowly dying to God Yahweh. A spirit lasts longer than pure flesh.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 01, 2004.

Elpidio,

You never addressed my question. How do you determine what is a heresy?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 01, 2004.

You are one, Emily. You had been one.

Let me explain: a)From origin- -Catholicism evolved from the Way, The Nazorean Church (see Acts 19, 24), Paul's writings, and James letter. So Catolicism is a heresy of the Way. Protestants came out of Catholicism, so they are also heretics.

Now the Way had evolved from Judaism. Jews consider the Way a heresy.

So, we are all heretics!!!

Of course, from derivation.

b)Now, heresy before God Yahweh means apostasy from his statutes. He is always telling the Israelites, later the Jews, to stop oppressing widows, the poor, the orphans,...stop worshipping other gods,....

These leads to two points. Fisrt point: -Israelites were created from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob covenants. So the Israelites, modern Jews, have the true faith of God Yahweh. I said faith, not practice.

Even though Catholics came from a church founded by Jesus, not only they pray to Jesus, but Catholics confuse Yahweh with Jesus, thus not totally honoring the true God of the Universe.

Thus Catholics share some good practices before God but others go against him. As Catholics, we ask the saints to be intermediaries alongside Mary, Jesus Mother before Jesus. Yet, this goes against the first commandment: I am Yahweh, you shall not have other Gods besides me.

Point 2: -God Yahweh continually appears to people. When people turn against him, he turns against them. So they become heretics before God Yahweh.

Examples: - Esau was the first born of Jacob, but he didn't follow in his father's religion of Yahweh worship (then known as El Shaddai).

-Samuel told Eli his priesthood was going to be taken away from his family because his sons disobeyed Yahweh.

-Jesus told the Jews that if they rejected him, then the days would come when Yahweh would leave them .This happened in AD 70.

Since 1850s, with John Bosco about the ship (the vatica) almost sinking, revelation to Leo XIII (75-100 years vision of destruction), Pius X, sister Lucia in 1917 , the Church has been told the end its coming for it.

These from Catholics, not counting mine, my mother,...

Yahweh is about to have abandon one part of the Church he obtained the the blood of Jesus Christ. That of the Church headed by the Pope and headquarted at Rome, Italy.

There will still be one side of the Church alive: Orthodox, Syrians, Copts,Armenians,...

The Christian Yahwist

The man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 01, 2004.