There are certain things in the bible that show that in the end all you need is faith. Example. The two men who were cruicified with Jesus. The one who asked Jesus to remember him when he came to his kingdom. What good works did he do? From what I can see from reading the bible it just shows him putting his faith in Jesus.

QUOTE 39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[6] " 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Then this parable Jesus told

QUOTE The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. 3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went. 6"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' 7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.' 8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' 13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

So if someone accepts God in the last hour before it is all over, does that make him any less justified than someone who has had Jesus their whole life and been doing good works?

-- Darryl (DKnight@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004

Answers

Obviously God does not penalize people who were physically unable to do the required works because they died immediately after accepting Him. The point is not how many works one is able to accomplish in one's allotted lifetime. The point is that one must make a total commitment to Christ in order to be saved, which is a commitment to a life of faith AND a life of works. The Bible repeatedly states that neither works without faith nor faith without works will lead to salvation. James tells us that faith without works is absolutely useless, and cannot save anyone.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14)

Even so faith, if it has no works, is DEAD, being by itself. (James 2:17)

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is USELESS? (James 2:20)

You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone. (James 2:24)

Could this be stated more clearly? What part of "NOT by faith alone" do you have difficulty understanding?

Matthew quotes Jesus Himself as saying that one who does not do good works goes to Hell!

"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You? Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not DO IT for one of the least of these, you did not DO IT for Me. These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt 25:44- 46)

Notice that Jesus does not say these people will be condemned because they did not "believe it". He says they will be condemned because they did not "DO IT" - works of Christian charity, without which faith cannot save. Without which faith is USELESS. Without which faith is DEAD.

You can't understand an issue by searching for one passage which, taken out of context, appears to support your own opinion. An idea cannot be taken as truth unless it satisfies EVERY passage of scripture, the way Catholic teaching does. Of course scripture says that faith is essential for salvation! It also says, repeatedly, that works are equally essential. No-one can read scripture honesty, not even a private interpreter, and come away thinking that one can be saved without a lifelong commitment to works of Christian charity, and a lifelong commitment to the faith which grows through such works.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 25, 2004.

darryl,

you, like the pharisees, confuse the works of the faith with the works of the law. what work did the criminal do, you ask? well, simple really... he did the works of compassion and christian charity. yes, these are works of the faith. he did the good work of contrition for his failings. there is work that we all can do in the name of God, even on our deathbed. even to renounce satan and accept Christ is the first work that we do as true Christians.

there is a specific aspect of the parable that you use that you missed. the master did not appoint them just to be paid, even those who came late... he appointed them to work and paid them the same regardless of the time they had spent. likening gold to salvation, so a christian can be saved even though they come late to the door because they recieve the needed sacraments of the church through the ever loving intercession of Christ, they do the most essential work of the faith simply by accepting Christ. And that is why most protestants are confused... after all these years they still dont know the difference between a holy life lived through faith, and just faith.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 25, 2004.

The way the Good Thief was saved is extraordinary anyway. He received salvation on the spot from the Saviour Himself. All salvation comes from Jesus; as He pleases.

He left a Church in the world however; in order that souls could come to Him there; not just having faith at large in the world. If He had not given the world His Church, then we could assume the act of faith alone is required. In fact His grace is arrived at by the sacraments AND our faith. That's the truth; other versions avoid the fullness of truth in following after false ministers. Only the Catholic Church has ever taught the Holy Gospel undistorted and uncut.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 25, 2004.

So what you are saying is that if I had a week to live and I committed myself to Christ I would be saved.

-- Daryll (DKnight@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

Yes, provided your "commitment" was expressed in both what you accepted as truth and what you did as a result, to the extent possible in such a short period of time. One could not realistically expect a new Christian to achieve either great faith or great works in the first week.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 25, 2004.

Catholics understand that ultimately every soul has that potential; being freely saved one-on-one by Jesus Christ. He will not fail one who truly loves Him.

There is, however the question of trust in His divine Word; to which all owe absolute faith. Indifference to his commands is no way to express one's Christian faith and love.

If the truth has been offered you in and by His Church, and yet you remain detached; it might not cost you salvation in the end. But you will answer for it on the last day. Not a joyful prospect.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 25, 2004.

here is something to chew on

Lets look at :

Ephesians 2:8-10 " 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. "

Lets take a look at this and see what it says before we go to James 2... they go together and actually complement one another.

1. Saved by grace 2. Thru faith 3. Not of our selves (can't brag) 4. Not by works... the works don't save... grace does when we activate it by faith. 5. Works come as a natural result of faith in action... you mix grace and our faith and that equal works. FAITH + GRACE = WORKS OF GOD

We are His workmanship (when we are born again, we are made into a new creature that good works come through)... born again unto good works. His Works. That is why we cannot boast, they come from God... but if we have faith activating grace, then we are saved. AND IF WE ARE REALLY SAVED THEN IT SHOWS... THE WORKS OF GOD COMES THROUGH US AS GOD HAS MADE US A NEW CREATURE... His workmanship.

Paul was trying to make it clear that no longer through the works of the Law can you be justified... there are works, but it is grace that saves through faith... the works are a part of it. And as a friend of mine once said, if you don't have works, then you aren't saved. James makes that clear. That's the balance of the matter.

Now... to James 2... you need to take the verses above verse 24 and look at them...

James 2:17-18 " 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. "

Faith with no works is dead being alone... in other words, if you don't have works, you really don't have faith. After all... the Bible says that the devils believe in God and tremble... doesn't do them a lot of good though. When we have active faith, then it produces spiritual fruit... fruit of the Spirit... the works of God.

That takes us to James 2:24 " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. "

Its not a contradition... its a further exploration of the matter. Paul was showing them that they couldn't be good enough to be saved... do enough devotions or devotionals to be good enough. Its the works Jesus did on the cross that we have through faith that makes us righteous. But if we really are righteous, then His works come through our lives. If they aren't, then our faith is really dead and not alive or real. James is saying... yeah its through faith, but you have to be real about it. If you are real, then God brings the works of God... otherwise, you don't have real spiritual life.

You can read 1 John and it will give even more on this topic. Its through faith... but then that faith produces righteousness and it gets real. If its not real, then we don't really have it.

People get messed up by taking one part of it without the rest of it. We need to have it all in context to understand it.

-- Darryl (DKnight@yahoo.com), May 26, 2004.

"1. Saved by grace 2. Thru faith 3. Not of our selves (can't brag)"

A: Yes - note the wording here ... BY grace ... THROUGH faith. Faith does not save us. Works do not save us. Grace saves us because grace leads us into a full response to Jesus Christ in faith and works.

It is true that FAITH + GRACE = WORKS OF GOD It is equally true that WORKS OF GOD + GRACE = FAITH

They are inseparable. Faith produces works and works build faith. Which is why the Bible is so clear about the inadequacy of either one without the other, and the absolute necessity of both.

"And as a friend of mine once said, if you don't have works, then you aren't saved. James makes that clear. That's the balance of the matter."

A: Exactly!! Your friend is correct. If you don't have works, then you aren't saved. Therefore salvation in the absence of works is not possible. Therefore works are necessary for salvation, just as the Bible so clearly states.

"Faith with no works is dead being alone... in other words, if you don't have works, you really don't have faith."

A: Right again! You cannot have one without the other. Which is why they are equally important and absolutely inseparable! It's a simple exercise in logic ... If A is a necessary condition for B, and B is a necessary condition for C, then A is a necessary condition for C. If you can't have salvation in the absence of real faith, and you can't have real faith in the absence of good works, then you can't have salvation in the absence of good works.

You are apparently hung up on the idea that works do not directly produce salvation. But that is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches - that salvation is a free gift of God that cannot be earned or merited. That doesn't mean that God cannot place certain conditions upon reception of the gift. Indeed, He must have, or else everyone would be saved, and we know that is not the case. The essential conditions for acceptance of salvation are faith and works.

"You can read 1 John and it will give even more on this topic. Its through faith... but then that faith produces righteousness and it gets real. If its not real, then we don't really have it. "

A: Apparently you prefer the term "get real" to the term "do works", though it is obvious that doing works is what you are equating with "being real". Call it what you want, but the fact remains - if we have no works to show, we will not be saved.

"People get messed up by taking one part of it without the rest of it. We need to have it all in context to understand it. "

A: BINGO!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 26, 2004.

darryl,

what you just stated, short of a few linguistic misunderstandings, is what the catholic church has been teaching for two thousand years. what did you presume to teach us, when we have the authoritative source of doctrinal truth already?

we know that we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus' sacrifice. we also know that the way to that grace is a faith lived in works. im not sure what point you're trying to play out, but we've already got the one youre trying to sell us.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 26, 2004.

It might be Darryl has a slight misunderstanding when he reads these passages.

The apostle Paul was not so much referring to good works in his exhortations to faith. Paul referred only to those works he and all his Jewish brethren knew as the Mosaic Law. He meant for them to accept once and for all, that God no longer asks us to live under the Law of Moses. That Law being circumcisions, animal sacrifices, ritual washing and purification, abstaining from pork, and many other things considered mandatory in the Old Testament.

He warned against relying upon any other source of salvation than Christ. That's why he tells us, to offer only our faith; faith in the Saviour. Instead of the Old Covenant, we live under a New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Are we required to undergo circumcision? Or to abstain from eating ''unclean'' foods? Or sacrificing in the Temple? No. All this was the correct work of the Israelite toward salvation. In fact, only an imperfect one; not complete for salvation. So, he preached; ''Not by works,''-- While Jesus Himself very clearly preached a Gospel of love, and carrying our cross, Feeding and clothing of the poor. Clearly He demanded of his followers Christian charity, good works-- as well as faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 26, 2004.

Darryl,

Heres something for you to chew on:

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has no works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them,..."Go in peace, be warmed and filled without bgiving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So FAITH by itself, if it has no works, is dead(2:14-17)

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead (Js 2:22- 24,26)

Darryl arn't you unbiblical? (2 Thess 2:15) says, " So then, brethren, stand firm and hold the traditions, which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

-- - (David@excite.com), May 26, 2004.

Sounds like another case of misinformed non-Catholics teaching Catholicism. Again, why not teach what's right with your own faith instead of why Catholics are on the hell express?

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 27, 2004.

Sad to say but alot of Protestants believe that as long as you believe in Christ as your God and Savior, your saved. They get the attitude of "hey, I know I'm a sinner and I do believe that Christ died for my sins, and I attend church every Sunday. But God understands that I'm a sinner and that I have a different nature than Him. But from time to time I will join my friends as they smoke weed, get drunk, go to strip clubs, etc. I can't help it, I'm a sinner and God knows it. After all, that's why He died for me. As long as I keep my "faith" in Him and "try" to do better, that's ok. But I am saved by my "faith."

Absoluetly ridiculous! I know some Protestants don't believe this way, but I know some really actually do.

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), May 28, 2004.

Jason: you are the typical example of Luther's saying: "Pecca fortiter, sed crede fortius"

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 29, 2004.

I think Jason was only providing an example. He does not subscribe to "Sola Gratia" or "Sola Fide".

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 29, 2004.

Enrique, pay attention to what I said, I gave a TYPICAL example of "sola fide". I said not all protestants believe like that, but many do as in the example I wrote. I DON'T! I am a Catholic and my salvation depends on God's GRACE as I respond to Him with my belief and works of charity. I have giving Him my whole life!

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), May 29, 2004.