What views are there, and which is biblically accurate?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004

Answers

There are 3 main views.

A-Millenialism (literally no millennium) is the belief that there is no literal future reign of Christ on Earth for 1000 years. Most people who hold this view believe that the symbolic 1000 years is being fulfilled during this present church age. There also is no Rapture, but one coming of Christ in which the Christians will rise up on a cloud with Jesus and the world will be destroyed by fire. There are 3 general types of Amillenialists: Preterist (all of the prophecies have been fulfilled); Partial-Preterist (all prophecy except the 3 and 1/2 Great Tribulation have been fulfilled); and Futurist (most end time prophecy has yet to pass).

Pre-Millenialism (before millennium) is the belief that the present church age is prior to the 1000 year reign of Revelation, and that Christ will return to the Earth and establish a kingdom for a literal 1000 years. There also are 3 positions held by Pre- millenialists in regards to the rapture. They are Pre-tribulation rapture (the Church will be gathered up and taken off of the earth before the 70th week of Daniel, Mid-tribulation rapture (during the 70th week, probably mid-way, the Church is gathered to Christ), and Post-tribulation rapture (at the end of the 70th week, the church is gathered to Christ just before he establishes his earthly kingdom).

Post-Millenialism (after millennium) is the belief that the 1000 year reign of Christ has already occurred, or that we are in the midst of it currently, in which the wicked are being removed from the Earth, while the righteous remain. Thus, the world is getting better and better and will continue to do so until the end of this period.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

I'm probably a cross between amillenialism and Pre-millenialism/Post- tribulation.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

wasn't this all invented in the 1900's in the US by some complete unknown?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 25, 2004.

"The Catholic position is similar to the position of traditional Protestants. In Protestant circles the position is called amillennialism, and it was held by Luther, Calvin, and the majority of traditional Protestants. It holds that the Millennium is a present reality—that the devil is bound now in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by stopping the proclamation of the gospel. This is why the world is no longer swallowed in pagan darkness the way it was at the time of Christ. The devil has not been able to stop the spread of Christianity, and now a third of all men are Christians, and half are believers in one God. Today, the prophecy is fulfilled that "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (Is. 11:9), and Christ reigns from heaven (1 Cor. 15:25–26) and through his Church on earth (Rev. 20:4). At the end of the Church age, there will be a period of bitter deception and persecution of the Church as the devil is again freed to deceive the nations (Rev. 20:7–8). Then Christ will return, as the Creed says, "to judge the living and the dead" (Rev. 20:11– 15)."

source: www.catholic.com

of course, this is a website and not the Catechism so maybe we can treat it as such!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 25, 2004.

Now, can i just strike a chord here, pls.

"Where in the Bible is the word "rapture" used?

mmmmm

well, hey, its not Scriptural, is it?!?!?!

a totally fallacious argument, i know, Lurkers, but watch it being used here [sotto voce: by the fundies].

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 25, 2004.

for those interested in the truth, start by looking at this INDICATIVE source: http://www.catholic.com/library/last_things.asp

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 25, 2004.

Luke

one final post and i'll leave this fledgling post alone. answer it if you know the answer.

does the church "of Christ" purport to be "infallible" in its teaching?

a "straight" answer please [i can give the Catholic answer without obfuscation or prevarication or procrastination].

maybe the straight answer is:

a/ yes

b/ no

which one, pls?

PS heartfelt congratulations on being a "cross between amillenialism and Pre-millenialism/Post- tribulation". if you were a dog, you'd win Crufts hands-down [cobber].

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 25, 2004.

Lahaye addresses the date issue in his book Revelation Unveiled:

“For several years a popular argument against the pre-Tribulation theory…is that it was invented by John Darby in the last century (1828) and was never seen or mentioned by the early Christian fathers for almost nineteen centuries of church history…

‘Revrand Morgan Edwards… in his book Millennium, Last Days Novelties,written in 1788…definitely taught that the Rapture occurred before the Tribulation…

‘[Grant] Jeffery’s most important find was… a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. The author is designated “Pseudo-Ephrem” (…because there is some question whether or not it was really written by Ephrem of Nisibis [c.306-373]…). Some prefer a later date for this sermon, called “Sermon on the End of the World,” suggesting it may have been written sometime between 565 and 627…

‘Ephrem… was not an originator of this view, for it was seen by Victorinus, Bishop of Petau, as early as A.D. 270.”

Lahaye goes on to cite the apostle Paul and then modern scholars who have proven that the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation is not a new idea.

The word “rapture” does not occur in the bible, though the basic concept does. It is a verb meaning transported, either by being caught up or brought up. I’ll make a speculative statement that nearly all Christians believe in a rapture, because Christians believe Christ is coming again and will bring his brothers and sisters to him. However, the Rapture is usually aligned with a pre-tribulation view similar to Lahaye’s, and thus the concept in general is rejected by some. As for the word not being in the bible and therefore unscriptural, I find the concept of the Trinity more confusing than the gathering of Christians.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

As for your question of infallible teachings…

If you are asking me about the congregation I attend with the “church of Christ” sign out front, then the answer is no. We have no official position of end time teachings, so it would be pointless to call what we do not have as“infallible.” Our preacher may have a different view than one or two of the Elders. Perhaps they all agree but many others in the congregation don’t.

If you are asking me about every congregation in the USA and then perhaps all over the world that would identify itself as “church of Christ” either with or without the sign, then again the answer is no. Remember each congregation is autonomous. I would suggest you looking at individual websites to the churches to see what they believe. Perhaps some do take a position of infallible doctrines. One might be the Boston Church of Christ. They have a “rule” of unquestioned authority, and take the position that even if the leader’s are wrong/unchristian, the “sheep” should submit to them anyway.

You wanted a straight answer, and this is as straight as I can give because of the way the church of Christ is composed, and because of the way you phrased your question. The (with definite article ‘the’) Church of Christ (a.k.a. the body of Christ) composed of every born-again believer in the world obviously is full of different beliefs on this issue, but I don’t think you were asking about this.

“ source: www.catholic.com… of course, this is a website and not the Catechism so maybe we can treat it as such!”- Ian

fair enough

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

Some Preterists and Post-Millennialists hold their belief that Jesus Christ is the ruler or prince to come of Daniel 9 who confirms a covenant with many.

Gabriel speaks to Daniel

"Know and understand this: from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One (Messiah), the ruler comes, there will be seven 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing." (some versions: but off, but not for himself).

"The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Without careful reading, we can see how Jesus Christ is the one who destroys the temple and confirms a covenant for one 'seven.' But I vote for reading carefully, and looking at evidence from other parts of scripture.

The Anointed One is cut off at the end of the sixty-two 'sevens.' This is actually sixty-nine 'sevens' because of seven 'sevens' previous to the sixty-two. Some believe the "cutting off" refers to the death of Jesus. So did Jesus confirm a covenant with his death and resurrection? Well no, not really. He created a new one, one that had not existed before. Yet Gabriel told Daniel that the "ruler to come" would confirm a covenant with many. To confirm a covenant, it would have to have already been in existance before. My own guess is that the covenant to be confirmed is the one between God and Abraham, which gives the Jews the right to the land. Still, this is not exactly a "smoking gun" by itself. So I move on.

In Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Jesus told them about wars and famines, and then starting in verse 15 he said,

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--then those who are in Judea flee...For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again."

Jesus is clearly refering to the ruler of Daniel 9 as someone other than himself. This is the ruler who confirms a covenant.

Paul, writing to the church of the ThessaloniansB, confirmed that the ruler is not God. Chapter 2:3-4 "Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Jesus proclaimed to be God, but never exalted himself above God the Father, nor is the title 'man of lawlessness' fitting for him. I don't believe Jesus is the 'man doomed for destruction' either.

Going back to Daniel 12 we see that the ruler abolishes daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination that causes desolation in the middle of the 70th 'seven.' If Jesus was the ruler who confirmed this covenant, then the prophecy means Jesus came back to earth (or will come back) sometime in the middle of this covenant, still leaving the second half for who-knows-what.

Scripture is clear that Jesus Christ and the ruler who confirms a covenant with many are not one and the same.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

Ian..,

The rapture is revealed in the Bible.., and plenty of early church Fathers saw it.

I will look for the info I remember reading and post it for you.

Your argument about where is the word rapture is as useless as the same argument used to deny the Trinity.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 30, 2004.

I would like to also point out that two moments in His second coming are described in the Bible--one where Jesus comes in the twinkling of an eye.., he comes quietly--unannounced. And while people are going about their business one will be taken--the other left in the field.

And then the other time, He comes riding in on the clouds and all people on the earth will not only hear (the shout of the trump) and see Him, but they will bow to their knees in worship of Him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 30, 2004.

Probably the most predominant teaching (in America) on the end time period is Premillenial/pre-tribulation. Though it is not exclusively the result of the “Left Behind” book and movie series, Jenkins and Lahaye’s work definitely has been a contributor. Some pastors have gone so far as to abandon scriptural reference in the unknown areas and teach from the lessons provided by Jenkins and Lahaye, as well as other pre-trib. teachers.

I bought Lahaye’s book “Revelation Unveiled” for another look at end time prophecy, specifically the Rapture event. I wanted to see the case for a pre-tribulation rapture. Unfortunately all I found were isolated, out-of-context scriptures, with the occasional “benign” scripture that doesn’t really show anything, and of course, assumptions. These are the bricks that a Pre-trib belief is built on.

While reading Lahaye’s chapter on the Rapture, the first thing that caught my attention was this:

“Jesus mentioned [the Rapture] only once, in John 14:2-3. He spoke of his second coming many times, but in ever other instance he had the climatic event Paul calls the ‘glorious appearing’ in mind.(pg.101)

I find it strange that the one event Jesus would most likely want his followers to know about, and to not miss is the one thing he doesn’t talk about. But no matter. We will see that both Paul and Jesus spoke of the same event, an event that occurs after the trial upon the world.

Lahaye provides a chart of Rapture Passages and Second Coming Passages (pg 102) for easy reference, but before I dive into those verses, I want to share page 103 with anyone who cares. On this page, Lahaye has two verses describing the 2nd Coming. I’ll type the verses in normal font, and Lahaye’s words in italics.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

“To appreciate the contrast between this event and the Glorious Appearing at the end of the Tribulation, we should read our Lord’s own description of that event in Matthew 24:27-31.

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

“ Do not be surprised if you cannot correlate these two installments of our Lord’s second coming. They are totally different.

Ok I’ll give it a whirl. Just look at the relevant parts, starting in v16 of 1 Thess. 4, and starting in v30 of Mat.24

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven… the Son of Man will appear in the sky

with the trumpet call of God… with a loud trumpet call

and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up… they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.… coming on the clouds of the sky

Funny, when you look at it like this, these passages seem very similar, not totally different at all! Basically, we have two separate accounts of the same event here, with slightly varying details, just like the gospel writers. Notice also, that in Matthew the elect are gathered up or “raptured” even though this is supposed to be the “glorious appearing” verse.

(Continued on next post)

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

Luke.,

The reason we know that the church is raptured before Jesus actually returns to the earth.., is because when He returns, he is accompanied by the church--see Rev. 19:11-16

The Rider on the White Horse

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus returns after the Tribulation to rule in the thousand year reign--and we are with Him. So how can we be bothe with Him when He returns., and also be on the earth looking up to see Him coming??

Only unbelievers and Mostly Jews--will be here to witness His return from that perspective. The Jews are the *elect* in this case...that remnant of Jews who will receive the promise.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 30, 2004.

Return of Christ

Here are the verses listed under Rapture Passages in Lahaye’s book “Revelation Unveiled.” (pg 102)

John 14:1-3 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.”

Here we have the one verse that Jesus mentioned the pre-trib rapture event. This is one of my “benign” verses, because it doesn’t really say anything except that Jesus is coming back and will bring us into the house of the Father (Rev 21). No timing can be established from this verse.

Romans 8:19 “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.”

Another benign verse. The only mention of timing comes from v18 that our “present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.”

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 “Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

I thought Jesus Christ was coming quietly according to Pre-tribs. Yet this verse says that he will be revealed. “Keep you strong to the end” obviously cannot be a pre-trib rapture because that isn’t the end is it? As I’ve shown on this thread, Return of Christ, “the day of the Lord” refers to the “glorious appearing.” This passage therefore does not support a pre-tribulation view.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.”

So there will be living Christians on the earth when Christ return, but both the living and dead Christians will be instantly changed from perishable to imperishable. Notice that it doesn’t say that the coming will happen in the twinkling of an eye, but that our forms changing will be in a flash. The sounding of the trumpet, not just any trumpet, leads me to believe that this is the same trumpet spoken in Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4. It is the trumpet of God. This gives you a clue as to timing—the end of the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 16:22 “If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord!”

Benign. Not only does this verse not teach a pre-trib rapture, it doesn’t teach a rapture at all.

Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.”

Our citizenship is in Rev 21. It seems to me that this verse along with 1 Cor 15:51 rub against the idea of Purgatory. We do not appear before the throne in our corrupted form, but in a glorious body like Christ’s. This verse however, does not give us a timing of the rapture.

Philippians 4:5 “Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.”

If you read this verse in context, you might get a different picture. The proximity of the Lord spoken by Paul here might be in reference to presence, not the coming. But even if Paul is speaking about the Coming, Jesus himself said in Rev 22 that he is coming soon. Lahaye himself accredits the passages from Rev 22 to the “glorious appearing,” as we all should.

Colossians 3:4 “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.”

Finally, a true pre-trib verse. It seems that in order for us to appear with Christ, we would have to come down from heaven with Christ. Christ comes in the clouds of heaven with power and glory according to Matt 24. We meet Christ in the clouds and sky according to 1 Thess 4. So if we meet Christ in the clouds, won’t we also share in his glory? Yes. Jude 14 says that Jesus will come with ten thousands of his saints. 1 Thess 3:13 also states that the Lord Jesus will come with his holy ones. Lahaye listed this verse under “glorious appearing.” How strange…

1 Thessalonians 1:10 “and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”

The book of Revelation describes two wraths. One is the wrath of God. Christians need not fear this because we are rescued from the wicked, on whom the wrath of God is poured out. The other wrath is the wrath of Satan. This wrath is poured out on the saints/church/elect.

In Revelation 12 we read about a battle in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels. Satan is cast down to earth and then in v12 “Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” Then in Revelation 13 “[The Beast] was given the power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.”

Jesus said in Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Also, Paul wrote in 1 Thess 2:16 that the wrath of God had come upon those who displeased God. So we know that the wrath of God is certainly not limited to some 7-year period of trials, but has been occurring for more than a thousand years.

The church suffers the wrath of Satan, because he hates us. The unsaved suffer the wrath of God because they do not have the blood of the Lamb. This is how we are rescued, not by rapture.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 “ For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?”

Benign really. Basically Paul is telling the church that they are the reason for which Paul and his companions gladly suffer.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (See above w/comparison to Matt 24)

1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is one of those great verses isolated. Here is the whole passage:

“Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.”

Again, see this thread Return of Christ, and you’ll see that “the day of the Lord” and “thief in the night” both describe the exact same event, the “glorious appearing.” The mention of these words in this passage shows that Paul is referring to the “glorious appearing” and not a pre-trib rapture. Verse 9 is in relation to verses 8 and 10. Paul instructs us to “be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet” and to “build each other up with these words.” Paul wants us to put on the Armor of Christ so that we can endure through suffering (see Revelation 13:10.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul’s message is to avoid evil. The purpose? To be blameless on the day of the Lord. When? Doesn’t specifically say here.

There are still more “rapture” passages, I’ve only done half the list.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

Faith asked, "So how can we be bothe with Him when He returns, and also be on the earth looking up to see Him coming??" and referenced Revelation 19:11-16.

My first question would be "how do you know the 'armies of heaven' is in reference to the church?" Perhaps these are the angels Christ returns with mentioned by many other passages. But i'm not going to stick to this assumption.

My second question is this:

According to Matthew 24, which is supposedly a "glorious appearing" verse, the elect meet Christ in the air. How then can we meet Christ in the air if he has returned to earth?

You see I've just asked you your own question in a different form. Here's a scenario for you. Jesus comes in the clouds,sends his angels out and in a blink of an eye, our bodies are changed, we are then raised imperishable. The angels bring us to Jesus, who is still in the air. Then we all decend the rest of the way to earth together. To a person on earth, it would appear that Jesus is returning to earth with saints behind him.

This scenario doesn't contradict the others, in fact explains a lot.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

We know that the armies with Jesus are the church., the saints-- because they are wearing fine linen--white and clean. Angels don't need to be washed new nor are they described as wearing these white robes.

We see believers described like this in other parts of Revelation: Revelation.., 7:13-15 and 22:14..,to name a few.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 30, 2004.

(continuation of Lahaye’s “Rapture Passages”)

2 Thessalonians 2:1 “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,”

Isolated!! Here’s the context.

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

I still am confused why Lahaye believed 2 Thessalonians 2 to be a rapture passage if it clearly says that this event shall not occur until after, after, after the abomination that causes desolation. What’s interesting about his theology is that he listed 2 Thess 2:1 under “Rapture Passages” and then 2 Thess 2:8 under “Glorious Appearing.” Obviously he is pick and choosing his scriptures and pulling them out of context. I wish all Pre-tribs would read this passage. Paul also mentions that he spoke to this church about the same thing before, which seems to indicated that all of the verses from 1 Thessalonians are also about the “glorious appearing.” If you keep reading, Paul again tells them to stand firm.

Some maintain that the one who holds the man of lawlessness back is the Holy Spirit, and when the Holy Spirit is taken away from the Earth with the rest of the Church, then the antichrist will rise to power. This makes no sense though, due to the fact that saints and elect are mentioned during this time, and we know that without the Holy Spirit, no man can be saved. Others believe that the archangel Michael is the one who holds back the man of lawlessness, and still others believe it is “time” that keeps him back.

1 Timothy 6:14 “to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,”

We’ve had similar verses. The passage in context seems to indicate “glorious appearing.”

“to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,”

2 Timothy 4:8 “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”

I’ll put it back into context again.

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths…I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”

Christ rewards those who finish the race. When is the race over? Death or his coming, whichever comes first.

Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,”

Whoa whoa whoa,, back the rapture train up. I’ve been totally mistaken! I thought that the “glorious appearing” was Paul’s description of an event at the end of the tribulation. Yes indeed that is what Dr. Lahaye said also on page 101

“[Jesus] spoke of his coming many times, but in every other instance [than that of John 14] he had the climatic event Paul calls the ‘glorious appearing’ in mind.”

And yet here we have the only scripture in which Paul coins the term “glorious appearing” found in Lahayes horribly flawed “Rapture Passages” column. Why would Lahaye do such a thing? I know exactly why. Lahaye maintains that the early church was “rapture imminent” coming of Christ.

“Many of the texts cited above for the Rapture of the Church teach an imminent coming of Christ. That means he could come at any moment.”

Why Lahaye listed this verse under “Rapture Passages” is because Paul states that the church was awaiting the glorious appearing, the event that occurs at the end of the tribulation. Lahaye believes instead that they were waiting for the rapture before tribulation. How silly.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

(last of Lahaye’s Rapture Passages)

Hebrews 9:28 “so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

Scripture only indicates 2 comings of Christ. One which we know has already occurred, and another which we wait for. A Pre-trib and Mid-trib rapture violates the two comings by creating a third. An attempt is made to put the rapture and the glorious appearing into one coming and still be seven years apart. The logic here is that if Christ does not come all the way to Earth, it doesn’t count as a full coming. The misunderstanding here is that Hebrews doesn’t indicate Jesus returning to earth, but the unknown author only says that Jesus will appear a second time. Whether he actually touches foot upon the Earth is irrelevant to classifying as a coming, and any scenario involving Jesus returning three times contradicts scripture.

James 5:7-9 “Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!”

Here, the Lord’s coming associated with judgment. Reading Matthew 25:31, the time of judgment occurs at the end of the tribulation. Rev 22 tells us that the coming (glorious appearing) is soon. Thus, we can easily tell that this passage from James is about the Return of Christ after the seventieth week.

1 Peter 1:7,13 “These have come so that your faith—of worth greater than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed…Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.”

Backing up to verse 5, “who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.” We’ve had verses about Jesus being revealed before. The undeniable evidence that Lahaye bluffed is clear, Titus 3 shows that the early churches were awaiting the glorious appearing. If we read all of these passages, I think we’ll see that the day Christ appears is the same that he is revealed. After all, the verses from Matthew show that his return will be seen by every eye.

1 John 2:28-3:2 “And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are the children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.”

How can anyone be ashamed if this verse is talking about a pre-trib rapture? My understanding was that only believers would be before Christ in that event. “His coming” refers to his appearing at the end of the tribulation. Those who aren’t paying attention and keeping to the faith will be ashamed at the coming of Jesus, he will come upon them like a thief in the night. When we see him, we shall be changed in a flash—in the twinkling of an eye—to be like him.

Jude 21 “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life.”

Titus 3 tells us that the church was also waiting on the blessed hope—the glorious appearing. This event and the one in Jude are one and the same.

Revelation 2:25 “Only hold on to what you have until I come.”

This verse doesn’t really mention timing. Like many other verses, the instruction here tells these Christians to stand firm until the end.

Revelation 3:10 “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

First, let’s state the obvious. This promise was given to one church, not to all of them. The church of Smyrna had nothing against them, yet Jesus told them they were about to suffer. Let’s look at the church of Sardis. Jesus told them that if they did not wake up, then he would come upon them as a thief in the night. Because Jesus did not promise them protection from the tribulation, and the passage indicates that this church will be in existence at the glorious appearing, we see clearly that the saints and elect do not mean those who become Christians after the Rapture, because the church of Sardis is still part of the church, as well as the church of Laodicea, which we also know will endure the tribulation.

This brings up another point. It is believed by some that the seven churches John wrote to are symbolic of church ages. It seem that they are representative about types of congregations or indeed individual Christians. I don’t believe that they are church ages however.

In Revelation 1:19 Jesus told John to “write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now, and what is to come hereafter.” So we see three time frames for Revelation, the past, present, and future of John’s time. Lahaye admits that this is a key to understanding Revelation

“Revelation 1:19 is the key verse that unlocks the door to the entire outline of the book. It is further evidence of the threefold division of this great Revelation. John was told expressly by Christ to write—1.”What you have seen” 2. What is now… 3. “What will take place later.” From this, it seems evident that the books is made up primarily of future events. It includes some things that existed in John’s day (ch.2-3) , all based on things he saw. From this, we see that the futurist interpretation of the book of Revelation is the valid one.”(pg 21)

We know from history that the seven churches John wrote to were actual churches, and that later he escaped exile from the Island of Patmos to become the overseer of these churches. Revelation 4:1 “After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place hereafter.”

Thus we see that the churches represent “what is now” or present tense to John, and not future tense. It’s reasonable to conclude then, that the seven churches he writes to are not church ages to come. So that brings us back to the Church of Philadelphia. How will Jesus protect them from them time of tribulation? The other “rapture Passages” Lahaye used have obviously failed to support such an idea. With a God so powerful, I’m sure there are many ways. Perhaps all Jesus is saying is that because they are faithful, they need not fear the wrath of God, which is supported by 1 Thessalonians 1:10

Whether the church of Philadelphia represents a church age or not doesn’t really matter. If it does represent a church age, we know that there is still one more to come after it, the church of Laodicea. And if the church of Philadelphia is raptured, then we know that the rapture would have to occur before the popular Revelation 4:1 passage. Again, by the fact that there is another “church age” after it proves that the church will have to endure the tribulation, because the entire body of believers shouldn’t be symbolized by one church, and John is NOT a symbol for the church. It has only one, and he is Jesus Christ.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 01, 2004.

Now that Lahaye's scriptural support for the Pre-tribulation Rapture has been exposed, we can address four assumptions that many people use to support a position. These are assumptions as Lahaye wrote himself

"None of the... four reasons is sufficient in itself to insist that Revelation 4:1-2 refers to the Rapture of the Chruch."

Here are his four assumptions.

"1)The location of this event is right for the Rapture. Chapters 4-5 present a vision of heaven, and chapter 6 introduces the Tribulation period. John, one of the first true members of the church of Jesus Christ, is a fitting symbol of the Church being taken out of the world just before the Tribulation begins, as our Lord promised : 'Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The only fitting symbol has always been and will always be Jesus Christ. No other person has, can or will be a representation of the body of Christ. Again, that promise was only to one church, and whether it be a church age or not, the placing of the church of Laodicea proves the church will endure the tribulation.

"2) The absence of any mention of the Church in the rest of the Revelation indicates that it is not on the earth during the Tribulation. There are sixteen references to the Church in Revelation 1-3, whereas chapters 6-18, which cover the Tribulation, do not mention the Church once. The natural conclusion drawn from this is that the Church that was so prominent during it's two-thousand year history (as predicted in chapters 2-3) is not mentioned in chapters 4-18 because those chapters describe the Tribulation, which the Church does not endure."

Actually, there is little evidence that all of Revelation 4-18 happens in seven years. We have had many events on this Earth that seem to fulfill prophecies of Revelation. Of course that is assumption. Indeed Daniel gives us a period perhaps of seven years, but Jesus only spoke of a 3 1/2 year tribulation, not that this refutes it either. But we know that there were going to be many wars, rumors of wars, war continuing till the end. These seems to describe our world doesn't it? Again only an observation. I believe we are way past Revelation 4:1. I guess I missed the rapture :(

So the word "church" does not appear during these chapters? Daniel 7-8 describes a war against the saints, in which the power of Satan is allowed to overcome them for the time of the lawless one. The NT is full of references to the church as "saints." Also, the Church are the "elect." In Matthew 24 we read that the days of the tribulation are cut short for the sake of the elect, and at the end the angels shall gather the elect. This shows that the church will be on the earth at the end of the tribulation. As Faith suggested, the "elect" and "saints" referred to during tribulation times are those who convert after the rapture of the church. Unfortunately, this is only a theory designed to make some sense of the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory. No where do we read that the saints of revelation are only those who have receieved the message after the Rapture.

In his letter to Titus, Paul never mentions the word Church. But he does use the word "elect." Shall we conclude then that this book was written for those during the tribulation time? Peter doesn't mention the word "church" in any of his letters. He talks to the elect scattered across Europe and Asia, but no mention of the Chruch either, the church he was given the keys to!!!

"3)The extensive use of Old Testament language and symbols in chapters 4-18 is an indication of Israel, not the Church. This is understandable since the Church Age is the time of the Gentiles, whereas the Tribulation is the time of Jacob's troulbe or the seventieth week of Daniel, determined by God for His dealings with Israel. Some of these Old Testament symbols are of the tabernacle, the ark of the covenant, the alter, elders, censers, cherubim, seals, trumpets, and plagues."

John was Jewish. John wrote Revelation. John described what he saw as best he could, using familiar objects to himself. The Time of the Gentiles refers to Luke 21:24 which says "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled," a passage echoed in Revelation 11:2 which says "But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months." These are the only scriptures that indicate a time of Gentiles. The Church of Jesus Christ was in fact Jewish for 10 years before a Gentile ever stepped in. Although the church is indeed a majority of Gentiles, we have Messianic Jews--Jews who claim Jesus Christ as Lord in the body today. Notice that the time of the Gentiles occurs during the Great Tribulation, during the two-witnesses, and during the reign of the man of lawlessness. This put's Pre-tribs in another paradox.

"4) There is much similarity between the events of Revelation 4:1-2 and other scriptural teaching on the Rapture, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18."

There is one similarity, and that describes the voice of Jesus like a trumpet.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 01, 2004.

Regarding your definition of Postmillenialism: Maybe liberals talk of the millenium being NOW but orthodox Christian believers who are Post-Millenial hold to an actual millenium and Christ returns after the millenium. There are different views - one is that it is not literally a thousand years and another is that it is. The Jewish nation will recognize Jesus as their Messiah which is a sign that the Lord's return is near. The rapture occurs while the Lord is returning so that all the believers are safe with Him. See Jude 14. When the rapture occurs, the end occurs. This is a very brief statement. There is much more to it than a simplified (incorrect) view stating that Postmillenialism believes the millenium is NOW. Many great men of God among the Puritans especially held to this view.

-- Dan Rivaldo (dan_rivaldo@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Why I believe in a future 70th week of Daniel

Daniel was praying while in exile. The Babylonians, under the rule of King Nebuchadnezzar, had sacked Jerusalem and the temple of Solomon in 586 BC. While Daniel was praying, the angel Gabriel came to him with this message:

Daniel 9 (parenthesis indicates translation variations)

24 Seventy weeks (sevens) have been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place (or one).

25 Know and understand this: that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince (Anointed One, the ruler) there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (and will have no one/no one; but not for himself) and the people of the prince (ruler) who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: even to the end will be war; desolations are determined.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, even until a complete destruction that is decreed is poured out on him (the one who makes desolate).

70 weeks total. According to Gabriel, there would be 7 weeks and then 62 weeks (total 69) from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until their Messiah would come.

I found 3 different dates suggested as the start of this countdown. The first is 539 BC. Under the reign of Cyrus, exiles were allowed to return to Jerusalem. God told the prophet Jeremiah that Israel would go into a seventy-year period of captivity (Jeremiah 25). The temple was rededicated in 516 BC, seventy years after King Nebuchadnezzar raided Jerusalem. For this reason, some assume that 539 BC is the correct date. However, there is a flaw. Supposing that the decree Gabriel spoke of was issued in 539, then the 69th week of Daniel would have ended about 56 BC, many years before Jesus came to Earth. Even if we used the date in which the temple was rebuilt, 516 BC, the 69th week ends too early. Because of this, I’m assuming that the end of exile and the start of the seventy weeks are not simultaneous. The only reason for making them simultaneous (as well as the 69th and 70th week) would be to support a preterist position.

The second date is when the prophet Ezra led a group of exiles to Jerusalem under a revival to restore sovereignty in 458 BC. This year is probably the most popular. Using 69 weeks we arrive around the year 26 AD (too early) and the full 70 we’d get 32 AD. Of course, we aren’t supposed to use the full 70 weeks just to get to the Messiah, so this date really doesn’t work.

The last date that is suggested to the start of the 70-week countdown is 445 BC. This is when Nehemiah goes before Artaxerxes in request to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Although the temple had been restored, Jerusalem had no walls, and so the King gave Nehemiah permission to rebuild it. Mathematically, this year doesn’t work either, except this is where Sir Robert Anderson’s book “The Coming Prince” shows that a biblical year lasts 360 days, 12 months of 30 days each, and somehow 445 works out just right.

Of the latter 2 dates, either one places you close to the walk of Jesus, and thus not overly concerning. History makes it easy to find the first 69 weeks. The last week however, is the source of much controversy.

(continued)

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

(continued from last post)

Here’s what we know will happen in the 70th week. 1. The ruler to come will put an end to sacrifice an offering. 2. He will set up an abomination that causes desolation on a wing of the temple. 3. He will proclaim himself to be God.

The first temple was destroyed before Gabriel’s message, so we know that this prophecy could not have been fulfilled then.

The second temple was destroyed in 70 AD so it at least had the chance for fulfillment. However, many clues let us know that it wasn’t. The only person who could possibly have represented the “ruler to come” of Daniel 9 would have been Antiochus IV who defiled the temple in dedication to the god Zeus. I believe he slaughtered a pig on the alter of God. But to my knowledge, he never confirmed a covenant with many. Granted my knowledge of history is dim, but I don’t have to assume anything. This occurred during the 160s BC, before Christ, and yet Jesus spoke of the abomination that causes desolation as a future event, and one relating to the end times (Matthew 24). I’ve already shown above in another post the verses that prove Jesus and the ruler are separate persons, and that the ruler who confirms the covenant is a future (to Jesus and Paul’s time) event.

No one fulfilled this prophecy between 30-70 AD. Plus, if you take into account that John’s book of Revelation wasn’t written until around 95 AD, nearly thirty years after the destruction of the temple, the only logical and truthful conclusion to make is that a third temple must be rebuilt and a seventieth week to come.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Dan-

Thanks for the heads-up on Postmillenialism. I tried to be inclusive of several views on the orginal answer, but obviously, the only accurate presentation of belief's can be from the believer himself. I suppose my summary would be more aligned with those who believe in a figurative thousand years, not literal.

As for my own view of the thousand year reign, I am still undecided and studying. It could be literal, or it could be figurative. To me, it isn't vitally important, but either way I do not believe it to be fulfilling as of now.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.