Would the real KJV please stand up!

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Readers,

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If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

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This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Here's a great link concerning the REAL KJV, which BTW, I love! As you can see, however, especially since this website offers photos, the original KJV does not resemble the KJV of today.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/1967

God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 22, 2004

Answers

Jeanie, I direct your attention to the fact that the original KJV did in fact, contain the Apochrypha. Did you not even look at the pictures? The Apochrypal books are listed in the KJV's table of contents. Did you not notice that the Bible lists Holy Days of Celebration, Saints Days, etc. Doesn't it bother you that you are reading a Bible that is missing books that were in the original printings of the Bible?

You have made a big production on this forum raling about the apochrypha. You have called my posts lies, etc., etc. Yet you simply REFUSE to even look at the evidence. You live in a glass house, Jeanie, comprised of the false teachings of your leaders. It is a fragile house and can only stand if it's flimsy structure stays in tact teetering on its foundation made of sand.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


March 21, 2002 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article)

A common challenge made by those who defend the modern versions is that the King James Bible today is vastly different from the one that was published in 1611. They point to the four revisions that were made in the 17th and 18th centuries and claim that tens of thousands of changes were made.

It is true that there were revisions. The first was in 1629 by Samuel Ward and John Bois, who had worked on the original translation. The second was in 1638 by the Cambridge University Press. The third was in 1762 by Dr. Thomas Paris of Trinity College, Cambridge. The fourth was in 1769 by Dr. Benjamin Blayney.

The changes, though, were of a very minor nature. They were largely a correction of printing errors, an updating of italics, spelling, and punctuation, and modernizing of some obsolete words. The changes also involved the addition of a large number of new marginal notes and cross-references.

How different, then, is the King James Bible today than the one in 1611? The following authoritative answer is by Dr. Donald Waite of Bible for Today ministry. It is authoritative because he took the time to examine this challenge first hand by diligently and laboriously comparing every word of the 1611 KJV with a standard KJV in publication today. Following is his testimony:

"The question is, how great were those revisions? How much has the wording changed? That is why I compared the present day Old Scofield King James Version with the original 1611. Some say there are 40,000 to 50,000 changes, and if you listened to them, you would think we don't have anything like the original today.

"[The changes, though, are largely related to spelling.] For instance, take John 9, the account of the man born blind. Now, the word 'blind' in verse 1 is spelled 'blinde.' It's a change. But is 'blind' any different from 'blinde'? If that is a change you're talking about, it doesn't affect the ear. Now, in the second verse, 'sin' is spelled 'sinne.' That is a change. Then the word 'born' is spelled 'borne.' But the sound is the same.

"What I did, was to count only the changes that could be HEARD. And from Genesis to Revelation, did I get 30,000? No. Did I get 20,000? No. 1,000? No. I got 421 CHANGES TO THE EAR, that could be heard, out of the 791,328 words. Just 421. That is actually one change out of 1,880 words. As for those 421 CHANGES to the ear--most of them were minor, just changes in spelling.

"There were ONLY 136 SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES that were different words. The others were only 285 MINOR CHANGES OF FORM ONLY. Of these 285 MINOR CHANGES, there are 214 VERY MINOR CHANGES such as 'towards' for 'toward'; 'burnt' for 'burned'; 'amongst' for 'among'; 'lift' for 'lifted'; and 'you' for 'ye.' These kinds of changes represent 214 out of the 285 minor changes of form only.

"Thus you're talking about ONLY 136 REAL CHANGES out of 791,328 words.

"Many people imply that the KING JAMES BIBLE is completely changed from what they had in 1611, that there are THOUSANDS of differences. You tell them about the MERE 136 CHANGES OF SUBSTANCE plus 285 MINOR CHANGES OF FORM ONLY" (Waite, The Four-fold Superiority of the King James Bible, Bible for Today, 900 Park Ave., Collingswood, NJ 08108).

Friends, do not be deceived by the myths promulgated by those who want to tear down your confidence in the King James Bible in order to replace it with a much inferior version

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 30, 2003.


Hey David,

The article you posted is interesting, but he missed something quite substantial -- the deletion of 7 books!! Did the guy not notice when he was comparing translations that his KJV is substantially smaller than the first one?

Well, anyway, I love the KJV. I just wish that the Reformers had left the canon alone. Dangerous.

I don't suppose Jeanie is ever going to respond to any of the evidence I have provided her with regard to the deuteros, and their widespread useage. I have provided text after text to refute some of her charges, but she ignores them in toto.

Gotta run,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


While we are braging about our ministers mine speaks:german, russian, english, french, italain, greek(old and new) latin, and some poragees(dont know how to spell that). Does that mean anything? I dont think so, some of the most holy people i have meet proble couldent pass the sat with a very high score.. Bed time for me... Happy New Year all!

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 30, 2003.


Last summer, in Illinois, I had my hands on a Revised New Testament (?) KVJ 1884. It had the complete compilation of books. It was a big thick leather bound Bible with tons of commentary and illustrations. The book looked like a football that had seened its share of seasons. The book was offered to me, but I declined thinking that the eldest son should have it. When we visit again, I will not reject.

....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


I keep transposing KJV with KVJ, sorry. My fingers do the same on the viola.

................................. What's a viola? Is that the same as a violin?

I just purchased a Douay Rheims LEATHER from England!!! I have a KJV with the deuteros and the RSV w/the deuteros. Yep, I bet you ARE kicking yourself for not taking that Bible, Rod. I posted pictures of the original KJV on a different thread. WOW, what a difference a few centuries make. I would love to get my hands on one of those first printings, but I'm SURE that cost way more than what I've got!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


Hi Gail.

Yes, I got chosen to direct the "orchestra" at church. The "orchestra" is really more of a string quartet. The musicians are high school students with me trying to play catch-up. I'm not a true violinist (my vibrato is very poor). I decided to learn the viola, which is the bigger violin (viol-ine). "Viol-ine" means small viola. I'm the type of musician that will jump into situations well over my head. Sometimes I sink (rarely) and sometimes I float (usually), but sometimes I actually out-perform dolphins at Sea World (in my dreams). This break has kept me with pen and paper composing arrangements for string quartet and suffering....uh, learning.....the viola.

Yes, I read your initial post on the D.R. leather bound. Gwen has an old 1950's (?) with those pleasant color illustrations. I wouldn't dare ask if she was willing to part with it. She did give me a Jerusalem Bible, circa 1966. The Jerusalem Bible is my favorite, only cuz I haven't made the effort to acquire the Douay-Rheims--waiting for a price drop, I guess.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


I didn't know you were a musician!! I am too! What a hoot. I help direct the music at my church too. I play guitar and piano but only by ear with very little music reading ability. Not a pro at all, but hopefully God makes up my lack. I've tried reading and it gives me a collosol headache! I think I'd rather eat broken glass. But I can pull out the tune "usually" by reading the notes unless there are lots of flats, then its Excedrin x 3!

That Douay Rheims leather does come with illustrations. It is approximately 76 U.S. dollars.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


Yes, the KJV with the Deuterocanonical. I need one. I have a RSV without the Deuteros'. My luck is very good in Illinois for finding such Bibles. Some used-book stores practically give them away at ridiculous prices. Of course, one has to dig and dig for them.

..............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Hi Gail.

Music doesn't come from the sheet music; you are proof of that. Would you all believe me if I told you that I was once in a Charismatic Pentecostal Band? Yes, but I was extremely conservative and still am. I did mention it before.

I knew that you were a musician, Gail. I read one of your earlier posts in the other forum.

No matter how much I try to hide my musical talents from the church, they always find me. My surrender to them is always subsequent. It isn't that I don't enjoy the music. It's that struggles with hectic schedules and limited funds. I must surrender to those factors even more. I wind up giving my weekends for rehearsals, composition, and personal practice time. But, I did manage to get my son and wife involved, so they understand, my daughter is a bit to young. At least, I'm not having to travel around South Texas for rivals and such. Those days are gone, whew!

........................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Rod, a "Charismatic Band" How cool! What kind of Christian music do you like?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


Yikes! contemporay Christian music is still kind of odd to me. I'm sure the "artist" means well, but I keep thinking that they have a career first and ministry second. Maybe, I'm to out of touch or something.

I do like the old time gospel sound. That's probably because of my jazz and blues upbringing in music. But, any style is fine as long as I get a chance to play it.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Hey Rod, I meant what kind of worship do you do at church? What are some of the songs you do?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


Eeek! I'm attending my wife's church. I don't know where they get their music, but it is mostly the contemporary soundtracks with video. It is a multi-media style worship. When I attend mass, with my parents, I've noticed some of the multi-media stuff there too. I generally do not sing along at either worship. I do sing the parts of the mass, I can't ever erase that.

Right now, we've played the typical Christmas Carols and am preparing music from the typical hymnal (Protestant). Uh, I tried to tell them that I couldn't help out, but music is a powerful thing. I've also had a look at the Catholic music scene. Every musician/guitar player has their own choirs for all of the different masses scheduled throughout the week. It is only inevitable that I'll become an ensemble director, again. That's what I used to do when I was an unequivocal Catholic. Easter and Mid-Night Mass were my busiest times.

A friend (Catholic) has tried to get me to come in and take over a choir. It seems that the choir directors are over-worked. The invitation was enticing and brought back good memories.

I guess I've revealed some paradoxical issues in my character. Life is complicated sometimes.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Are you familiar with Carman? I kind of got thrown into his stuff back in the 80's. His new stuff is really out there. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I'm only now getting acquainted with the "Protestant" hymns and popular arrangements of those old hymns. I think that I'm still a traditionalist when it comes to worship music.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Wow, multi-media stuff! We don't even have a foot monitor. Heck, we don't even have pick-ups for our guitars. Needless to say, without a monitor we have no idea in the world what we sound like at the back of the church.

Yeah, I am familiar with Carmen. His old stuff is pretty good, but not for worship. I have no idea what kind of new stuff he does. I really don't care for much of the real contemporary worship stuff. I like stuff from like the 70's and 80's, and some early 90's.

However, I love Robin Mark's "Belfast in Ireland." Great Irish stuff w/bagpipes, Violins, and the whole Celtic thing, AND it's live! Plus, the lyrics are RICH RICH RICH. In fact, I got Theresa (from our forum) doing his stuff at her parish in California. She said her congregation loves it too. The worship was recorded in Belfast with both Catholics and Protestants together worshipping. Maybe that's why it's so powerful; you can sense the Holy Spirit doing great things! You might wanna check it out. We have done four songs off of that CD, and the young AND MOST ESPECIALLY the older people love it!!! And this is an old, old country parish where "nuttin' ever changes."

Happy New Year,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


Hey, Gail. I think that you are an more experienced musician than you are leading me to believe. "Foot monitors"....."pickups"....those are words of the trade. I prefer to mic everything; I don't like those direct boxes. But, I use an amp for all of my guitar work, even on acoustic guitars: 6 strings, nylon classicals, 12 string guitars. The soundman usually has very little experience with setting up the sound system, so we are always at their mercy.

Here's a little trivial info. My wife is a Montgomery, including the red hair. But, she doesn't own a bagpipe, darn!. I've been trying to put my kids through some sort of cultural music, which would include some of the Celtic music you mentioned. Though, my wife claims to be of the English extraction, I doubt it .

My wife's church is extremely 'musical'. They have a full choir and a quintet that sings all of those popular Christian songs. It is very inspiring to listen to their singing. I dare not join in cuz I don't know the words to most of the songs, funny coming from a music teacher.

My friend (Catholic) has mentioned some of your titles, come to think of it. She's a guitar player, too. I kind I influenced her on buying an Ibanez acoustic guitar cutaway with Piezo Pickups and a real nice Fender acoustic amp. The action on that guitar is fast and smooth with great tone. She plays that setup at mass every week. She is very happy with it. She's also a music teacher and catechism teacher.

Yes, I remember Theresa. She's a real nice gentle poster, I'm sure she's even more "heavenly" in real life.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Whoops, I meant "floor monitor" not foot monitor, and it's not hooked up because the outlet doesn't work and there's no one there that knows anything about our sound system, ancient as it is. The monitor is just a speaker that faces the singers so they can hear their harmonies and so forth. Too bad it's not hooked up.

We have a big problem right now. We have three sopranos, me included, and for some reason when any of us get within a foot of the microphone, we start getting all kinds of distortions. The alto is fine. Anyway, since we have no sound man and since we can't get the monitor hooked up, it's a real game of guess work to sing ESPECIALLY A SOLO.

I was going to sing a song this weekend, solo, but the distortions are too great. I would have to stand over a foot from the microphone, and then my voice is too faint. I wonder if we turned the volume up, but stayed the distance, if that would solve that problem. Any suggestions . . .?

God Bless

Gail

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Hi Gail.

Here's what I think may be happening with the "feedback" problem.

1. Your voice pitch (note) is being overly amplified; therefore, causing the sound to reverberate around the room.

Solution-

1. adjust the "EQ" levels on the sound system. The "highs", "mids", and "lows" are mini volume adjusters for those pitches that are being overly amplified. Sometimes the "EQ" adjusters are sliders or turn knobs. Sing through the mic while somebody adjusts the "EQ". Generally, the sliders should be positioned to look like a smiley face. :)

2. adjust the position of the microphones. The mics might be picking up reflected sounds and causing the overly amplified problem.

3. adust the volumes of all of the microphones and or "EQ" for each channel/mic.

4. adjust the position of the microphones to the main speakers or floor monitors. The mics might be picking up the main output sounds from the sound system causing a continuous loop, hence "distortion".

5. I doubt this, but maybe a channel may be bad or the mic cord is bad.

Definitions

distortion- the sound sorce has changed drastically.

pitch- the note you are playing or singing.

"EQ"- equalization of the sound source regarding "high","midddle", and "low" ranges of the pitch.

channel- the part of the sound system where the microphone or instrument "jack" is plugged into.

"jack"- a connector. feedback- a misnomer for the building up of amplified sound, that loud hollowing sound coming from a sound system.

reverberation- sound the bounces around off the walls.

I just wanted to make the terms universal, here.

....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.


Thanks a bunch, Rod, that is very helpful information. I think sopranos typically "throw their voices" out, and so there is a wide discrepancy between the highs and lows. The mic picks up the highs but not the lows, so you get this distortion. We'll give it a shot. Otherwise, no solo's for the sopranos.

Thanks,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.


Gail, Where do you get your church father quotes? I think I'm going to start reading them...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 30, 2003.


Hi David, you can find the Church Fathers, and many many others at ccel.org. The writings are broken down by century. You'll find that if a letter is "spurious" for whatever reason, it will be noted as such. It's easier to print out some of these epistles as they are very lengthy.

Joseph Gallegos' website categorizes quotes by topic. His website is here http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm He also posts debates he was with Protestant apologists like James White, Bill Webster at his website.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.




-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 22, 2004.

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