Can you be a Christian and deny the deity of Jesus Christgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
The answer to this, is No.Essential Doctrines of Christianity
The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, and the gospel. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these four are the only ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential. A non-regenerate person, or a cultist (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah's Witness), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines.
The Deity of Christ Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means 'I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
Jesus is the proper object of faith It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes: The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man. He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that. As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).Salvation by Grace "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4).
This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
you cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5). < "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law" (Gal. 3:21). The Resurrection of Christ
"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:17). To deny the physical resurrection is to deny Jesus' work, sacrifice, and our resurrection.
These verses clearly state that if you say that Jesus did not rise from the dead (in the same body He died in -- John 2:19-21), then your faith is useless.The Gospel "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8.
1 Cor. 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (NIV).
Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10), therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.By M. Slick 2003
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 21, 2004
I can be a Christian even if I deny Jesus being equal to God, David.I am a Christian Yahwist because the Bible says I am David.
There is no text in the Bible that says you must believe Jesus is God to be a Christian.
Oldest formulations: Romans 2-5 and Galatians.
Every letter of Paul starts with Paul praising God and his Son Jesus.
Every letter of Paul says God raised Jesus.
Every letter of Paul says we believe Jesus is the mediator (I Timothy 3).
I cannot quote from the Bible directly now because the library computer I using now doesn't alllow me.
Also, the idea of Jesus being God comes also from the mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14.
Read the passage again David.
It says that Immanuel is King Hezekiah, since the sign is for Ahaz. When this kid no longer is breastfeeded then the enemies of Judah will disappear. This happened around 722 BC.
The key word is Almah. It refers always to a woman (young).
Bethulah is always used for a woman who never had intercourse.
See the case of Rebekah when Abraham sends his servant to find a suitable woman fro his son Isaac.
She is called a virgin(Betulah) not Almah.
Matthew , whoever he was is tottally wrong in translating Almah as virgin.
We know he is not even quoting the Greek Septuagint. He is not even translating the Hebrew.
God knows what he was translating!!!!
Whatever they told you in your Bible School David about Jesus divinity is wrong, David.
I was 20 when I began to suspect something was wrong.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 13, 2003.
I believe the proverb you quoted applies here: There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Proverbs 14:12 / KJV
Paul never believed Jesus was God.
Yet Protestants who inherited their beliefs from the Catholics don't follow him on this.
By the way, there is no record of Jesus relatives(The Ebionites in the Patristic writings) ever believing Jesus was God. This was written by Eusebius. See his Church history.
Go figure!!!!
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com),
Elpidio, you run into all sorts of problems trying to deny this. God said he would preserve his Words. Even the 10 commandments were written in stone! Are you telling me that all those promises that God mad are just mistranlations? Sorry, God don't make mistakes. Jesus is God Almight. God humbled himself into a here human body. There are no mistranslations. God kept his promise and all True Believers believe Jesus is the Almighty God. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 13, 2003.
David, God doesn't make mistakes or mistranslations.
People do:
other examples: Camel for carob in John the baptist's food. This I know from a Greek person himself. He was my teacher. Original says thread made of Camel's hair.
Translating God's name as Lord thus confusing it with Adonai more than 6900 times.
Thus creating the illusion in Psalm 110 that Jesus is God when it says Yahweh said to my master.
Thus making Jesus divine.
Go figure, my Son!!!
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com),
Elpidio, Jesus Did claim to be God, and He is God. Your in line with other cultists like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 13, 2003.
soooo out of your depth Ortiz. but you are the Moderator.
so you can carry on so long as you wish this Nestorian to continue.
but, having the objective Truth on my side. I KNOW that this is a complete waste of time.
Sola Scriptura -- keep on keeping on, Dave. its nonsense as this maverick will slowly teach you.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 13, 2003.
I'll just type out verses David posted. Sometimes it is easy to ignore references. John1:1,2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."
John1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
The Word became flesh (Jesus Christ). The Word(Jesus Christ) was WITH God in the beginning and the Word (Jesus Christ) WAS God.
It is misunderstanding that because no one has seen God, but many saw Jesus, that Jesus cannot be God. God is spirit, Jesus is flesh. Or rather, the Son of God(the word) BECAME flesh and is named Jesus. There is an easier way to describe this.
[b]Physicists know that light is comprised of three distinct yet indivisibly interrelated properties: wave, material (photons), and quantum. Though each property reveals itself in a different way, they are nonetheless each all "light." Likewise, light is comprised of electromagnetic waves of different frequencies. At the low end of the spectrum, we have radio waves-which, given the proper transforming device, can be heard. In the middle, we have visible waves-which can be seen. At the upper end, we have infrared waves-which can be felt as heat. --"What is the Trinity?" by Ralph O. Muncaster[b]
So light can been seen, heard, and felt. To get more confusing, here is something that might help explain how God can be both singular and plural at the same time.
[b]We'll begin with a simple example of an extra dimension transforming a contradiction into a resolved paradox: In two dimensions in which only length and width exist, triangles can never be equal to circles. Triangles have three corners and circles have none. But in three dimensions of length, width, and height, a triangle could be flipped up on its base so that the third corner resides above the base in the dimension of height. Then the triangle could be rotated on its base so as to transcribe the shape of a cone. Also, a cone is a series of concentric circles endings at a point (the third corner of the triangle). Thus, in three dimensions of space, it is possible in one context for a triangle to be a circle and in antoher context (such as on a piece of paper) for a triangle not to be a circle. Therefore, one could conclude that triangles can simultaneously be circles and not circles.In the same manner, a few extra dimensions of space and a few more of time would make possible the existence of God as a Trinity, an Entity who is simultaneously singular and plural. --"The Creator and the Cosmos" by Hugh Ross[b]
Hope this helps explain that Jesus is God
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 18, 2003.
Not quite Luke. Check this out.
When Jesus was baptized by John , a dove (the Holy Spirit) descended on HIM (Thus, he is not the Holy Spirit). Then a voice from Heaven sid "This is my Son". Since Jesus was in the Jordan River,then the Voice(GOd) wasn't him.
From your brother in Christ, the Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 18, 2003.
100 Truths About Jesus Jesus claimed to be God - John 8:24; 8:56-59 (see Exodus 3:14); John 10:30-33
Jesus is called God - John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8
Jesus is the image of the invisible God - Heb. 1:3
Jesus abides forever - Heb. 7:24
Jesus created all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17
Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17;
Jesus is eternal - John 1:1,14; 8:58; Micah 5:1-2
Jesus is honored the same as the Father - John 5:23
Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:41; (John 14:14)
Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
Jesus is omnipresent - Matt. 18:20; 28:20
Jesus is with us always - Matt. 28:20
Jesus is our only mediator between God and ourselves - 1 Tim. 2:5
Jesus is the guarantee of a better covenant - Heb. 7:22; 8:6
Jesus said, "I AM the Bread of Life" - John 6:35,41,48,51
Jesus said, "I AM the Door" - John 10:7,9
Jesus said, "I AM the Good Shepherd" - John 10:11,14
Jesus said, "I AM the Way the Truth and The Life" - John 14:6
Jesus said, "I AM the Light of the world" - John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46; Luke 2:32
Jesus said, "I AM the True Vine" - John 15:1,5
Jesus said, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life" - John 11:25
Jesus said, "I AM the First and the Last" - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13
Jesus always lives to make intercession for us - Heb. 7:25
Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9
Jesus cleanses us from our sins by His blood - Rev. 1:5; Rom. 5:9
Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48
Jesus saves forever - Matt. 18:11; John 10:28; Heb. 7:25
Jesus discloses Himself to us - John 14:21
Jesus draws all men to Himself - John 12:32
Jesus gives eternal life - John 10:28; 5:40
Jesus resurrects - John 5:39; 6:40,44,54; 11:25-26
Jesus gives joy - John 15:11
Jesus gives peace - John 14:27
Jesus has all authority - Matt. 28:18; John 5:26-27; 17:2; 3:35
Jesus judges - John 5:22,27
Jesus knows all men - John 16:30; John 21:17
Jesus opens the mind to understand scripture - Luke 24:45
Jesus received honor and glory from the Father - 1 Pet. 1:17
Jesus reveals grace and truth - John 1:17 see John 6:45
Jesus reveals the Father - Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22
Jesus bears witness of Himself - John 8:18; 14:6
Jesus' works bear witness of Himself - John 5:36; 10:25
The Father bears witness of Jesus - John 5:37; 8:18; 1 John 5:9
The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus - John 15:26
The multitudes bear witness of Jesus - John 12:17
The Prophets bear witness of Jesus - Acts 10:43
The Scriptures bear witness of Jesus - John 5:39
The Father will honor us if we serve Jesus - John 12:26 see Col. 3:24
The Father wants us to fellowship with Jesus - 1 Cor. 1:9
The Father tells us to listen to Jesus - Luke 9:35; Matt. 17:5
Everyone who's heard & learned from the Father comes to Jesus - John 6:45
We come to Jesus - John 5:50; 6:35,37,45,65; 7:37;
The Father draws us to Jesus - John 6:44
The Law leads us to Christ - Gal. 3:24
Jesus is the Rock - 1 Cor. 10:4
Jesus is the Savior - John 4:42; 1 John 4:14
Jesus is the King - Matt. 2:1-6; Luke 23:3
In Jesus are the treasures of wisdom and knowledge - Col. 2:2-3
In Jesus we have been made complete Col. 2:10
Jesus indwells us - Col. 1:27
Jesus sanctifies - Heb. 2:11
Jesus loves - Eph. 5:25
We sin against Jesus - 1 Cor. 8:12
We receive Jesus - John 1:12; Col. 2:6
Jesus makes many righteous - Rom. 5:19
Jesus sends the Holy Spirit - John 15:26
Jesus offered up Himself - Heb. 7:27; 9:14
Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time - Heb. 10:12
The Son of God has given us understanding - 1 John 5:20
Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith - Heb. 12:2
Jesus is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession - Heb. 1:3
Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven - John 14:1-4
Jesus is the Light of the world - Rom. 9:5
Jesus has explained the Father - John 1:18
Jesus was crucified because of weakness - 2 Cor. 13:4
Jesus has overcome the world - John 16:33
Truth is in Jesus - Eph. 4:21
The fruit of righteousness comes through Jesus Christ - Phil. 1:11
Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come - 1 Thess. 1:10
Disciples bear witness of Jesus Christ - John 15:27
Jesus died for us - 1 Thess. 5:10
Jesus died and rose again - 1 Thess. 4:14
Jesus was a ransom for many - Matt. 20:28
The Christian dead have fallen asleep in Jesus - 1 Thess. 4:15
Jesus tasted death for everyone - Heb. 2:9
Jesus rendered the devil powerless - Heb. 2:14
Jesus is able to save completely - Heb. 7:25
Jesus came to serve - Matt. 20:28
Jesus came to be a high priest - Heb. 2:17
Jesus came to save - John 3:17; Luke 19:10
Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God - Luke 4:43
Jesus came to bring division - Luke 12:51
Jesus came to do the will of the Father - John 6:38
Jesus came to give the Father's words - John 17:8
Jesus came to testify to the truth - John 18:37
Jesus came to die and destroy Satan's power - Heb. 2:14
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets - Matt. 5:17
Jesus came to give life - John 10:10,28
Jesus came to taste death for everyone - Heb. 2:9
Jesus came to proclaim freedom for believers - Luke 4:18
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 19, 2003.
If Jesus is not God, then explain... Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)
Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?
Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)?
What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God.
How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 19, 2003.
from :If Jesus were not God, then explain... by M. Slick -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 19, 2003.
Elpidio, Your Jesus is not the same as my Jesus Christ.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com ), December 19, 2003.
Well, Yes! finally! Thanks, David. Fine job on your compilation. That's the kind of stuff great forums are made of ! ...............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 19, 2003.
I was able to find the thread..
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 21, 2004.