Even readers without a trace of interest in Roman Catholic liturgical and theological debates might want to follow an ongoing controversy in the Diocese of Orange surrounding the future of the Tridentine Mass. The issues at the center of this debate are issues that shed light on the ongoing sex-abuse scandal, the roots of which still confuse some observers today.

To traditional Roman Catholics, there are few things more pious than this mass, which is an old-style Latin Mass known for its deep meaning and great beauty. This is the real deal, complete with vestments, incense and Gregorian Chant. It's more pious than the modern mass and the polar opposite of - this really happened in Orange County - a mass given by a dancing priest wearing a black leotard.

Now that a veteran priest at a traditional Huntington Beach parish has retired, the diocese is stamping out the Tridentine Mass at that location, forcing devotees to drive to the overcrowded Mission San Juan Capistrano, where it is still officially sanctioned.

Basically, the forces of liberalism that are crushing traditional Roman Catholic piety are the same forces that unleashed the sex-abuse scandal within the church. As long as the leadership rejects traditional ideals of holiness and piety, nothing will be done to assure that holy men, and not those with lax sexual attitudes, dominate the priesthood.

Locally, Fr. Daniel Johnson, the kindly, traditionalist priest who led St. Mary's by the Sea for 25 years, has retired. His retirement, and the retirement of the Tridentine Mass with him, is heartbreaking news to St. Mary's parishioners.

It's a mean-spirited act for the bishop to deny the parishioners the mass they love so much. The diocese says permission for the mass was granted for the priest only, and it retires with him. But the diocese could, if it wanted to, pass the permission on to someone else.

This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There's the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.

That's the world of Fr. Johnson and St. Mary's by the Sea.

Then there's the "progressive" church, with its emphasis on "social justice," and its desire to make church teachings fit with modern sensibilities. I call it the Kumbaya Church.

That's the world of the diocese leadership.

Since Vatican II, the church council that adopted reforms, the left has been ascendant. Social and theological liberals have used the "spirit" of Vatican II to advance their agenda, and have succeeded, despite the traditional emphasis in far-away Rome.

As Catholic author Michael Rose argued in his blockbuster book, "Goodbye Good Men," the liberals gained control of many seminaries and kept tradition-minded men out of the priesthood. That's the root of the sexual-abuse scandal: The success of the left in driving out "good men" and replacing them with priests with different standards.

The proof is in the pudding. The more liberal the diocese, the fewer the men interested in priestly vocations. Only in the most traditional dioceses are there large number of people pursuing the priesthood. At St. Mary's by the Sea, Fr. Johnson took over a congregation of 400 people 25 years ago, and it is now 1,500 families strong.

Is the growth because the church has the traditional liturgy and doesn't soft-sell its principles?

"Of course," Fr. Johnson told me.

Yet, as Fr. Johnson said, "the diocese reaches out to everyone but we are barely tolerated [by the diocese]."

"The old mass, in particular, emphasizes the real presentation at Calvary," he said. "The pope said we have to get back to the idea of sacrifice rather than a fraternal banquet."

One never hears diocese officials talk that way. They use the language of political correctness and ecumenism. I recall the photograph I was sent by one local Catholic of Bishop Tod Brown yanking (he says gently pulling) a middle-aged woman up by her arm, as the woman tried to receive communion from him while she was kneeling. The bishop has a firm policy against kneeling before communion.

Last summer, the bishop insisted that two priests credibly accused of downloading child pornography on their computer were not in violation of the diocese's zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse. That's why the person who sent me the photograph penciled in a caption: "Bishop Brown: light-handed on child porn - but heavy-handed on kneeling for communion!!"

That's a strange disconnect: apparent laxity toward misbehavior, yet intolerance toward attempts at holiness. It's typical. When Mel Gibson's "The Passion" was released, traditional Catholics were ecstatic. But the Diocese of Orange spokesman called the movie tedious and offered this snide review in the newspaper: "If you are of the bent that feels that graphic suffering makes you feel the terrible sinner that you are and Jesus is saving you, then this is going to be a very big plus in your favor when you see the movie."

Now the diocese is taking away the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary's. In a letter to a parishioner, the diocese said the parishioners should accept the decision with an obedient heart. But given the Vatican has said dioceses should be generous in allowing such masses, a reasonable question is raised about who is not being obedient.

"Bishop Tod Brown has sent out a survey asking O.C. Catholics for suggestions ... to help him accomplish Thesis No. 4 of his 'Covenant With the Faithful,' the pledge to 'work collaboratively with all members of the diocese,'" said St. Mary's parishioner Teri Carpentier. "If Bishop Brown sincerely cares about his people, why will he not listen to the hundreds of parishioners at St. Mary's by the Sea and hundreds of other faithful Catholics who signed a petition to retain the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary's. ... What is the harm that is done in retaining it?"

Such is the divide within the Roman Catholic Church. Unfortunately, the church leadership lacks the courage and wisdom to bridge it.

-- J. Fernandes (goana@hotmail.com), May 17, 2004

Answers

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-- J. Fernandes (goana@hotmail.com), May 17, 2004.

When are you going to understand that bishops are given their authority from above, not by the flock? If your bishop is not attentive to your complaints, it's because you aren't authorized to make demands. You're making a specious argument:

''Is the growth because the church has the traditional liturgy and doesn't soft-sell its principles?''

''Of course," Fr. Johnson told me.'' You must be joking!

You have here implied that our Church at large and in communion with her true bishops is ''soft-selling principles,'' --a direct slap at the Catholic Church. The mere fact that your priest & you and the parish prefer a more solemn Latin liturgy is not any sign of a superior faith. It only means you dislike Mass in the vernacular. It's the old argument all over, ''My Mass is better than your Mass.'' Meanwhile blaspheming the divine presence of Our lord amidst His faithful at the other person's church. Nothing but self-absorption and disrespect for God. God Who is present and worshipped in every Novus Ordo liturgy; whether or not you accept it, Mr. Fernandes.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

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-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

The article states: In a letter to a parishioner, the diocese said the parishioners should accept the decision with an obedient heart. But given the Vatican has said dioceses should be generous in allowing such masses, a reasonable question is raised about who is not being obedient.

Good Point. I was in Los Angeles area this weekend, about 50 miles Northwest of the new Cathedral, and wished to attend a diocese approved Tridentine Mass. There were zero masses within an hour's drive on Sunday morning. ZERO!, in a heavily populated area with probably over one thousand masses in the a.m. in that geographic circle. There was one at 1:30 pm at Mission San Buenaventura, but I had to be on the road for the long trip home by then. We ended up going to a LifeTeen mass in the evening.

Should it be so hard to find a Tridentine Mass? Consider the following:

c) moreover, respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962.(9) --Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Letter, Ecclesia Dei June 1988

Finally, in faithful obedience to Tradition, the Sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognised rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way.---Sacrosanctum Concilium, art. 4.

For fostering a true consciousness in liturgical matters, it is also important that the proscription against the form of liturgy in valid use up to 1970 should be lifted. Anyone who nowadays advocates the continuing existence of this liturgy or takes part in it is treated like a leper; all tolerance ends here. There has never been anything like this in history; in doing this we are despising and proscribing the Church’s whole past. How can one trust her present if things are that way? I must say, quite openly, that I don’t understand why so many of my episcopal brethren have to a great extent submitted to this rule of intolerance, which for no apparent reason is opposed to making the necessary inner reconciliations within the Church.---Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, ‘God and the World’ (Ignatius Press, 2002).

Why are many dioceses so niggardly in their allowance of the Latin Mass?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 17, 2004.

I simply do NOT understand this at all. I've seen it myself and I do NOT get it. HIs Holiness has said time and again that BOTH forms of the Mass are valid and respected..so WHY WHY and WHY can't those of us who desire the Latin mass have it available? There are many of us who do NOT disparage the "new" mass at ALL..I don't. I simply PREFER the Latin mass..what is the big deal with that? When the Vatican directs the Bishops to DO SOMETHING and they flat out refuse, who is at fault for complaining about it???????? Priests are supposed to be submissive to their bishops..bishops are SUPPOSED to be submissive to the Vatican..good grief people..no wonder the Church is in such disarray with everyone doing his "own thing". I'll say it once again..Not everyone who prefers the Latin mass is against the "new mass". BOTH are EQUAL. I'm 56 years old. I have a complete understanding of the Latin mass. I grew up with it. It's worth driving to St.Louis for 2 hours up and 2 hours back. For those of you who do NOT prefer it, who is chastising you? The "new mass" is lovely and meaningful..The Latin mass is lovely and meaningful. When an entire HUGE parish prefers the Latin mass, and the Pope himself has stated that when people WANT it they should have it, then WHY must there be a problem? It's all very sad.

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), May 17, 2004.

What is sad is when people are attracted by outward liturgical practices rather than Christ Himself.

1 Cor 1:10 - Now I beseech you brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion.

1 Cor 1:13 - Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?

This has been the failure of protestantism. Division based upon doctrine, practice, service.

I am seeing the same division happening here. If we think we are immune from what has plagued protestantism, we decieve ourselves. Division is in our blood, in our bones. We need to be rescued from our inner divisive nature by looking away unto Christ, as the embodiment of the Triune God, the perfect example of harmony in unity.

What is it that attracts you to your service on Sunday ? Is it the Latin language ? Is it the incense ? The music ? The way the bread is presented ? The building ? The stained glass windows ?

What a travesty ! We should look unto Jesus Christ. It is He whom we give thanks and praise to.

Just consider the life that the Lord Jesus Christ lived. I think Eugene touched on this matter in one of His posts. Jesus was not born in some palace. He was not brought up in a rich family. His outward appearance was not beautiful. However, people were so attracted to this person because He had something divine and mysterious about Him.

I suggest that next time you go to your service, look beyond the candles, the music, the incense, the hymns, whatever it may be, because all these things are not the end, rather they point you to a very special person. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), May 17, 2004.

We assist at the celebration of the Eucharist with worship as our service. With Love as our motivation.

The design of a church building; the people who are all around; the furnishings and setting-- all are of passing importance. Only God has the right to our attention. Not even the priest will distract a faithful Catholic. Christ becomes the priest and the altar and the offering. Otherwise, materialism is your choice. And Jesus knows it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

Some of you guys keep talking about obedience to your bishop but what about obedience to Rome? We all (including the bishops) need to remember that we must be obedient to Rome after all we are Catholic.

SS

-- SS (email@email.com), May 17, 2004.

I am stunned by the lack of charity. I have nothing more to say on this subject except that I will continue to pray for those folks whose hearts are filled with self-righteousness.

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), May 17, 2004.

Don't be stunned Lesley. It looks like Cardinal Ratzinger is correct.

What is it that attracts you to your service on Sunday ? Is it the Latin language ? Is it the incense ? The music ? The way the bread is presented ? The building ? The stained glass windows ?

Yes, all of those things which are used to enhance and deepen our worship and reverence for Our Lord. Why do we have all of these things? Because Apostles, and Saints, and Popes, have determined over many centuries that they contribute mightily to prayer, and the right reverence due the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What a travesty ! We should look unto Jesus Christ. It is He whom we give thanks and praise to.

What a travesty (and how calumnious) that you think lesley and I don't. And what a travesty you feel you should comment on this.

I suggest that next time you go to your service, look beyond the candles, the music, the incense, the hymns, whatever it may be, because all these things are not the end, rather they point you to a very special person. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Thanks for the suggestion Oliver. I suggest that you think I do not worship Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, as he should be worshipped what with all "the candles and music, the incense, the hymns, and whatever it may be" getting in the way. I suggest that you are wrong.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 18, 2004.

''What is it that attracts you to your service on Sunday ? Is it the Latin language ? Is it the incense ? The music ? The way the bread is presented ? The building ? The stained glass windows ?'' Yes, all of those things-- Sure, Brian; all. And particularly the wonder of meeting Our Lord during the Mass, and taking in His grace and love. If it were not for His holy presence, you could still be there, grooving on ''all those things''. However, it would be a waste of your time. You would likely see everything in one day, as we go to art museums, and not return again for a long time.

What must keep us coming back, even if the surroundings seem less than exciting, is God himself. This is where He stays for our benefit.

I would also love to provide for his honor and glory, a stupendous venue everywhere; in each and every parish. Just as I would love to visit all the best hotels in the world; because Five Stars is better (they say).

But, again. Jesus was not born in the Bethlehem Ritz; He lay in a manger. If I can't find Him in a lavish and ''traditional'' church, I'll go where He is. Because He is my reason for going. It is HE who gives me joy. And, when I'm laid to rest, all the fine cathedrals will not attract me ever again. I will leave them far behind. He's where all of us want to go; and we can't take any buildings with us, My Friend. They are dust.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2004.

Eugene,

Agreed. I'm not sure why it seems that I'm "grooving" on incense, stained glass and the like, but rest assured I'm not. I don't believe I've ever "grooved" on anything in my life. :-) As I said, all of these things "serve to to enhance and deepen our worship and reverence for Our Lord," which is our goal, otherwise they wouldn't exist. If they don't exist in a certain parish or mass, for whatever reason, it does not mean our Lord is not present, of course. I never said this, I don't think I implied it either.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 18, 2004.

I just laid out another, equally valid perspective, because some folks believe only ''traditional'' settings draw one's spirit up to God. I mentioned once here; if I could choose the perfect setting for Holy Mass, for majesty and power; His holy altar would be set on a 10,000 foot mountain top. Under the glowing clouds of sunset. Man can't approach that sublime heighth. We just do better or worse, with all our hearts.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2004.

Fair enough. I never said that Catholic worship was or should be "one- size fits all." I do believe that there are certain things which enhance prayer, worship, and reverence. But certainly, prayer, worship, and reverence can exist in the absence of these "certain things." That being said, I could really "groove" on that 10,000 foot altar. ;-)

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 19, 2004.

Eugene

Good to see that you are still part of the Kumbaya Church. The pope says it should be readily available. What is your problem?

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inpsired.com), May 20, 2004.

Who told you I have a problem? My Church is the Holy Catholic Church. I resent your reference to any Kumbaya label. Would you like it if we called you mackerel- snapper? BTW; do you still fast completely after midnight; in order to receive the Holy Eucharist next morning? No water? Tell us honestly.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2004.

Eugene

You mistake me for a Trad. I am Novus Ordo through and through. I just find it really interesting that any priest and congregation can easily partake in what really amounts to sacrilege without a bat of an eye lid.

However when someone wants the liturgy according to the rubrics of 1962, it creates such an imense problem.

Sancta Maria ora pro nobis

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugfh@inspired.com), May 20, 2004.

What both sides need to keep in mind is that, as humans, we are affected by the environment. Its just our reality. Either incense or Kumbaya can be good if it affects the participant to better appreciate and to "feel" the true reality of the sacrifice at the mass.

If it is clear that the incense version of the mass is enabling some parishioners to better participate in the mass, the bishop should do what he can to foster that participation. Its as simple as that.

Unfortunately, bishops are human and sometimes they do make mistakes. In that case, it is up to the members of the flock to take on the responsibility of living the faith properly, despite a less than perfect leadership by the bishop.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), May 21, 2004.

Pat

I couldn't agree more.

-- Hugh (Hugh@inpired.com), May 24, 2004.

Not to derail this fine thread, but if we're starting a litany of the saints, I need to add:

Sancte Joannes Baptista, ora pro nobis.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 25, 2004.