MASS.ALLOWS GAY MARRIAGE

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread

Here is proof we as a society are on the way to a new dark ages...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-05-14-gay-marriages-mass_x.htm?csp=24

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 14, 2004

Answers

PRAY FOR CIVILISATION IF YOU WILL

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 14, 2004.

I am against gay and lesbian marriage, Zarove.

In the old days they were beaten up, or killed.

In the United States, they were shipped to San francisco starting in the 1930s. Now they represent 30% of the city dwellers.

West Hollywood in Los angeles and a section of Long Beach, also in Los Angeles.

The sister of the conservative Republican and former Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich lived here. She's a lesbian.

But I also believe that many of them could change for the better. After all, the Apostle Paul states that in chapter 1 of Romans:

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (The blue bible)

The Greeks to whom he was speaking did that, Zarove. Yet, they believed Paul. Many were converted.

Besides praying, what can we do? Write to tv stations which promote homosexuality and lesbianism. Young people get confused easily about their sexuality during their teen years. Not adults.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.


I wonder if I'm completely alone in believing conclusively, that homosexual and heterosexual inclinations are inherent in most people from the beginning. I know that many people say there is "no proof" that this is the case. But I don't think there is "proof" to disprove.

The reason I feel so strongly about this, is a result of my own "heterosexual" experience, or "heterosexualness." I remember being about 6, maybe even younger... (you'll notice I always seem to call on my childhood... I seemed to have learned alot back then.)

But any way, a girl about my age, Beth, I remember thinking she was so beautiful; I imagined saving her from drowning in the ocean, or from monsters etc. I was smitten. I also fell for girls who lent me pencils, and could print with beautiful round carefully made letters. This was before I learned about girls having "cooties" (I was born in the mid 50's) I'm not even sure that the term "cooties" means anything to anybody anymore, but when I was growing up, if you were a boy, you were supposed to go through a period when you "hated" girls. This was from about the 1st to close to the 5th grade. I never did, (hate girls) but had to pretend to, or be considered a "sissy" or something.

"Furst!... Hey,... You like girls don't you!" "Furst likes girls!"

.... "No, Really!!! Not me" I barely know any" ...I earnestly replied ... (this was just before the cock crowed)

I discovered from my first "kid" friends (at that time) that I was not alone in really "liking" girls, we all just had to pretend the opposite in order to play the game of being a "normal" kid.

My point is that I never had to "learn" to like girls. It was there from my earliest memories. It was inate for me, and as I learned, inate for all of my "girls are yucky pronouncing" friends. We all liked them (girls) dispite our protests to the contrary.

Friends I know, and later acquaintences who I eventually learned are gay, tell me its the same thing for them, only in reverse. They didn't learn to, or "become" gay, ... they "were." It goes all the way back. Why should I disbelieve them? It mirrors my experience in reverse.

Because I always knew the "way" I was, makes it hard for me not to accept the homosexual claim that they were born "that" way.

Also, given the way most in society view gay's, why would anyone purposely set out to be gay. I see very little glamor inherent in the life style. Life is not a "sit-com." I don't think being gay is for "sissies."

I don't think being "gay" or "straight" is anything you can be "for," or "in favor of." I think you are for the most part, stuck with it. I just don't know why so many people don't seem to recognise, or at least consider that this could be the case.

If you are in fact "born that way," it does seem (to me)that it should at some level, affect our moral judgement about those so "afflicted."

I'm not advocating the "gay lifestyle," only suggesting that we should be careful about being so smug in our pronouncements about these people.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 14, 2004.


I wonder if I'm completely alone in believing conclusively, that homosexual and heterosexual inclinations are inherent in most people from the beginning.

{I doubt this for several reasons. One of which is that many gays who where "orn that way" have to "discover" their "true identity" and "true sexuality.". Soem as late as in their fifties! many in their midlife, or late 20's, many more htna peopel relaise. Most in their eary teens. Few can earnestly claim to have had sexual feeligns for their own gender as early as 6 years old.

Also, the Inherent part is disproven. Its a known fact in my psycology textbooks that most gays who enter therapy for reasosn other than their sexuality * which we cant treat anyway anymore) will still surrender, or at least have a reduced, Homosexuality if therapy is successful.

Homosexuality also has a probelm. whereas if I claim to be born Heterosexual, this is demonstratable throgh logic. if I have sex wiht a woman, then I can get her [regnent, and thus reprodiuce. The poitn of sex is, dispite modern mans attemtot o change it, primarily reprodictive. Homosexuality isnt prodictive in any way, and is in fact destructive both tot hte mental sttae and pohsyical well beign of the individual Homosexual.}-Zarove

I know that many people say there is "no proof" that this is the case. But I don't think there is "proof" to disprove.

{What about negative proof? what if I pos spem studies that prove the reverse?its more htan just lack of proof they are Born Gay, its proof tot he contrary that the media largly ignores.}-Zarove The reason I feel so strongly about this, is a result of my own "heterosexual" experience, or "heterosexualness." I remember being about 6, maybe even younger... (you'll notice I always seem to call on my childhood... I seemed to have learned alot back then.)

{Invalid. Heterosexuality is not equatable to Homosexuality, dispite the hype and modern claims. They arent the same. Onde leads to body parts that poeryly align beign properly sed,a nd has hte potential to ;ead to new life. The other leads to parts that dont align beign forced into other parts not relaly receptive, often lendign to damage an disease transmission, and mental stresses.(heterosexuality leads to, if properky used, a more stable mental state, Homosexuality does not.)

Heterosexualit is th Norm for a reason, that reason is because it is much, much, mucg healthier, safer, and more prodictive. }-Zarove But any way, a girl about my age, Beth, I remember thinking she was so beautiful; I imagined saving her from drowning in the ocean, or from monsters etc. I was smitten. I also fell for girls who lent me pencils, and could print with beautiful round carefully made letters. This was before I learned about girls having "cooties" (I was born in the mid 50's) I'm not even sure that the term "cooties" means anything to anybody anymore, but when I was growing up, if you were a boy, you were supposed to go through a period when you "hated" girls. This was from about the 1st to close to the 5th grade. I never did, (hate girls) but had to pretend to, or be considered a "sissy" or something.

{See above. Natural drive to mate is healthy. deviant drive to mate with ones wn gender is not.}-Zarove "Furst!... Hey,... You like girls don't you!" "Furst likes girls!" ... "No, Really!!! Not me" I barely know any" ...I earnestly replied ... (this was just before the cock crowed) I discovered from my first "kid" friends (at that time) that I was not alone in really "liking" girls, we all just had to pretend the opposite in order to play the game of being a "normal" kid.

{I liked girls to. However, again, Homosexuality is radiclaly diffwerent form heterosexuality and is best described as a disfunction. It leads to no good and lots of ill. }-Zarove My point is that I never had to "learn" to like girls. It was there from my earliest memories. It was inate for me, and as I learned, inate for all of my "girls are yucky pronouncing" friends. We all liked them (girls) dispite our protests to the contrary.

{See above. also, lots of streight men learn to be gay, and lots of Gays leave Homosexuality.}-Zarove Friends I know, and later acquaintences who I eventually learned are gay, tell me its the same thing for them, only in reverse.

{Yes, and if you dig a little deeper you learn the truth...I had a guy say he was Born Gay, but in reality his Homosexualit ywas the result of a dysfunctional family.}-Zarive

They didn't learn to, or "become" gay, ... they "were."

{I disagree. all gay peopel I know, even those who claim to have been born Gay, really have triggerign events in their lives.}-Zarove

It goes all the way back. Why should I disbelieve them? It mirrors my experience in reverse.

{Because it also mirrors my own. i am clinically depressed. To me it seems I have always been this way. I didnt learn to be depressed.Or at leats it doesnt feel like I did.

In relaity my poor upbringing and sheltered existance and overbearign mother, cruel peers at schoo, and lack of undertanding form anyone lead me to becoem isolated and withdrawn.I wasnt Born depressed and angry. But I am depressed and angry.

All the Homosexuals know have had rather, shall we say, less than stable childhoods, and events that clealry lead them to this behaviour, just as I had events that lead me to mine. Why shoudl i doubt reason and beleive sentement?}-Zarove Because I always knew the "way" I was, makes it hard for me not to accept the homosexual claim that they were born "that" way.

{I use to beelive it, then I researched it. its hogwash. Most gays who claim to have been Born gay discover this at around 12-15. By then family stress and emotional traumas have set in, promring this. Such as an abcebt or abusive father. }-Zarove Also, given the way most in society view gay's, why would anyone purposely set out to be gay. I see very little glamor inherent in the life style. Life is not a "sit-com." I don't think being gay is for "sissies."

{Again, why be depressed. I have attemtped suicide in the past.Why "choose" to be so withdrawn abd d bitter? Obviosouly sinc no one woul choose to be this wya, my depression is genetic, not the result of past life trauma...

I don't by the "Why woudl htey choose this" argument either, since too many mental illnesses are not chosen conciosuly that are still, nonehteeless, the prodict of exprience and learnign and conditioning. This inludes Homosexuality, no matter how Poliitcally Incorrect I sound.}-Zarove I don't think being "gay" or "straight" is anything you can be "for," or "in favor of."

{Yes, you can. I am opposed to all forms of deviancy, especially that which destroys peipels lives. Homosexuality tends ot shorten lifespans as well.}-Zarove

I think you are for the most part, stuck with it.

{Then how do you explain ex-Gays? Sweep them under the rug like most Gay advocacy groups?}-Zarove

I just don't know why so many people don't seem to recognise, or at least consider that this could be the case.

{I did consider it. I use to beleive it. it was what i was taught. "Gays are Born that way." Then i did the sicnece, its not true. Not only does no research ndicate that they are Gay, most of the researhc tends to go in the opposite direction, favouring at best a genetic tendancy like alcaholism, but at worse renderign it totally phsycological. More research indicztes the latter than the former, as I will present in a coupel weeks.}-Zarove If you are in fact "born that way," it does seem (to me)that it should at some level, affect our moral judgement about those so "afflicted."

{No, since they aren't. I just cant beelive they are any more. No based on my rleigion, but based ont he hard science.}-Zarove I'm not advocating the "gay lifestyle," only suggesting that we should be careful about being so smug in our pronouncements about these people.

{Zee replies above.}

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 15, 2004.


I do not believe that we are born preprogrammed to be hetero or homosexual. I think that we are nurtured into one or the other or both or even niether preference. God made us man or woman; the parts fit quite nicely. Something happens during our critical sexual developmental stages that cause us to prefer a sex role. It could be that we emulate our parents. If the parents have positive or negative role models, the children pickup on those models. Peer pressure can be just as formulative to our perception of sex. I say this because I do believe in Free Will. We are born with the freedom to become what we are. If the homosexual community continues to be extremist in their political and social demands, it will have an adverse effect on our young children by confusing them as to what is acceptable or not acceptable. Hmm......what happens in a controlled environment when persons of one gender are locked up together? The power play manifests itself through sexual roles. The homosexual or lesbian activity takes on a different purpose; it being control.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 15, 2004.



How many stories can we tell of men controlled by women via sexual desire? Or, women by men (this sounds rare to me)? Sex is a strong controlling power that can be used by anyone. It may lure and imprison a person or it may cause the person to shutdaown and not engage in a healthy relationship. How a person engages and perceives sex generally begins through their childhood upbringing.

I met a friend, who hated his wife for her controlling power over him, he walked away from his marriage and found a new "love". The person he found showed him respect, understanding, and "true love". Both men found each other during the storm of dissappointment and resent[ment]. The wife drove the man to a distorted view of love. Basically, the man redirected his hate towards his wife and rejected her in the most profound way by finding a man to replace her. The man was searching for love from his wife and could not find it. He looked elswhere and in so finding that "love" he made a mockery of his marriage to his wife.

The funny thing here, for me. The guy in the story above was a co-worker. He told me his story as we sat in 20 degree weather inside my car while in full uniform; we were security guards. I became rather nervous hearing him reveal his love life. As he was speaking, I noticed a death grip on the shotgun I was holding. Hearing stuff like that in extreme close proximity was alerting. But, we eventually realize that people are people. We should feel compassion for the things people go through.

....................... ............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 15, 2004.


Zarove,

Thank you for reading my post so thoroughly. Your arguments are always well thought out and I'm flattered you spent the time to respond to my ramblings. I tend to argue emotionally, based on my own experience. I haven't researched any clinical studies to prove one hypothosis over another. Actually, I think its all much more complex. I don't think the textbook has been written yet that has the bottom line explanation for that orientation. When I was in college, the emphasis on theories of development tended to be very Skinnerian. Homosexuality was a "learned" behavior. Behaviorists believed they could "extinguish" that or any behavior.

I've always run in a very eclectic crowd. I've been fortunate to have had many interestng conversations with a fairly wide variety of people. Over many years and through my life experience, conversations etc. I've come to believe that certain tendancies are inate. This doesn't mean that environment, and "nurture" as Rod pointed out doesn't play a very important part in the whole process of development.

As far as textbook or clinical studies go, they can only report on the people who have come into therapy for some reason or another. "Of these people who entered therapy for___________, we can conclude _________." Most clinicians are very careful about what "absolute" conclusions are derived from the "results." THere are many factors that blur group studies including the clinician's bias.

You discussed your experience with depression. Could there not be an organic componant? Pop psychologists call it "brain chemistry" I remember the outcast kids from school who were the subject of ridicule. Some withdrew more, others found their way out. I always felt compassion for these kids; I rcognised how easily I could have been one myself. That was a time when popularity was almost completely proportional to how good you were in sports. I was terrible at sports, I prayed the ball wouldn't come to me in the outfield because it would never go in my hand. I learned to do other things to keep a foot in the "in crowd."

When you talk about all the gays who become "straight," I can only say that I've never met any,... doesn't mean it can't happen, maybe they were really "straight" to begin with and went through an anomolous period. I really don't know. When I said you can't be for or "in favor" of being gay or straight, I should have said it doesn't "matter" if you're for or against it because it doesn't really change anything. People will be homosexual whether we like it or not.

I agree with Rod's last two sentences, "We should eventually realize that people are people." We should have compassion for what people go through."

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.


Jim,

I always incontact with students who beliehave homosexual or lesbian tendencies.

I walk a delicate line.

I hear their stories. They became that way.

(PS: Notice how well Zarove writes...I believe his keyboard was the problem).

The Districts have now a policy of being open to them.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 15, 2004.


Elpidio,

How do we know for sure that a "predisposition" didn't lead them to "become" this way?

Maybe we're moving toward a "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" analogy. Perhaps my point or belief really doesn't matter.

I guess I mainly object to the harshness of judgement that seems to come down on these people from so many.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.


How abot their own harshness and judgement? We where FORCVED to hold a "Gay Day in Rhea" while thye lied abotu how bigoted we where own here.

People are forced to let their children learn abotut he "Alternate lifestyle" and how "Notrmal" it is.

Poeple are FORED to accept them, and if you fdont, the gay lobby steppeds on you. I know form firsthad experience.

The Gay peopoel thta acutlly LIVE in Rhea county idnt even like Gay Day, btu the gay newspapers claimed they did.

Exaclty hwo are they treated harshly when they have the power to impose on us their will?I mean not to sound paranoid, but lets fasce reality, Gays are rather forceful these days.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 15, 2004.



Zarove,

Most minorities have a fringe element, (a minority within a minority) that tends to yell loudly and draw attention. I would say "gay day" parade participants and the like are part of this noisey minority.

Being part of the "majority" position myself, I just can't get myself worked up enough to feel threatened. I don't feel that bad behavior in a minority justifies a "bad behavior" response from the majority that could impact on the "well behaved" majority within that minority.

There is probably a better way to express the above, but I got to go and time is short.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.


Gays arent a Minority either. Though their are fewer gas than streights, the link between sexual oreitnation and racism is pretty weak. They arent an athnic minority, and hey dotn have soacific shared beelifs. Their only common grouds are their sexual preferences.

They arent a real minority.I esprcially find that line of reasngin distirbing because we say " Liek the blakcs, the gay minority", and in relaity we have black gaYS. They arent a seperate ethnic group.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 15, 2004.


Zorove,

I never meant to suggest that my use of the word minority was in any way related to ethnicity or race. My use is purely numeric... "straight" the majority of the total population, versus "gay" the numeric minority. I would contend that minorities, whether racial, religious, or sexual in orientation do share some certain specific feelings of oppression by those in the majority. Each group has different issues.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.


As a vegitarian, I am ten a Minority. I odn feel oppressed .

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 15, 2004.

surely the startpoint is this:

if "gayness" [buggery, lesbians, etc] is hereditary, then there would be no gays in the world because they do not reproduce, because they cannot.

there are those that "go both ways" but they cannot be homosexual by definition.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 15, 2004.



Zarove,

Vegitarians just aren't viewed by society as being disordered, or specifically different in any significant way. Thus it's understandable that there are little if any true feelings of oppression.

Although, I did see a small fringe group of vocal vegitarians holding signs and chanting "don't eat beef" in front of a McDonalds on route 40 West about 5 years ago. I think it was after beef product was found in the french fries. I didn't talk with them, but they didn't look too happy about Big Mac.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.


Thats a good point Ian, but maybe it skips generations?

I suspect there are probably very complex forces at work. This really isn't an issue thats dear to my heart. I just get goin' sometimes. This horse has probably taken enough of a beating.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.


Well Jim.

One was wrestling his cousin. He liked the touching.

Another was my friend. The priest from our church touched him. He also did like it. His family kicked him out. Last time I knew in the lat 90s he was dying of AIDS he contracted around Hollywood.

....

So, no one was born. They became.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


i understand Jim's point, however, that the gayness is in some ways a world apart from the murderers, thugs, bullies etc.

if someone has this gay inclination, they they have the corresponding disinclination to spend a life with a women and (if you are blessed) kids. i suspect that a great many gays wish they weren't gay, that they could take part in life in the more common way.

in that sense, gayness is a hardship -- in the same way as the alcoholic suffers from his lifetime of terrible addiction.

there is, therefore, a need to be sensitive. this comes out in the Catechism as follows:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 17, 2004.


It sounds like anyone can become anything they choose or pushed into becoming. Humans have this uncanny ability to adapt to situations, whether good or bad, in order to satisfy a need or want. For a man, a beautiful woman who will always be there in support of him is the ideal situation, both in a mutual support and love for each other. Way to often such an ideal marriage can erode into pure _____ if the two aren't willing to keep things on track. In all reality, is it safe to say that if a man and woman follow God's will all things should be on the correct path? Is it that the homosexual view denies God's will and , therefore, brings on the complications of such a lifestyle upon themselves?

Is it possible for a homosexual/lesbian person to cast off their preference and adapt to a heterosexual marriage in accordance to God's will? Can an adulterous person do the same and adapt to a marriage between he and his wife only? I really think we are talking about choices, not innate-ness.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


BTW, the use of the word "gay"...man!

I still want to believe that the Flintstones had a gay ol' time, not a "gay" ol' time.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


Good questions Rod.

here's what i ponder:

"CCC 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent...... It [also] implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. .....

CCC 1860 ....... The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest."

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 17, 2004.


"gay"

yes, Rod, i'm trying to be politically correct - and losing the use of a fine word.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 17, 2004.


....though i sometimes wonder if Fred and Barney were always really at the Bowling Alley when they said they were...

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 17, 2004.

In the old days they were beaten up, or killed.

That's a sin & a crime (murder) !!

I'm hetero , absolutely !!

But , I have nothing against homosexuals , if they can marry , why not !! __ I wish them all the best !!

Well , in political terms , it's called: democracy !!

You can protest you're against it , that's freedom of speech , 100% !! __ But if the law allows such marriages , what you gonna do about it ??

What if you've got homosexual kids , and they want to marry , what you gonna do about it ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 17, 2004.


I can see your point Laurent. But, let's examine the Christian point:

If we believe in God's will, we will be living the straight and narrow life He intended for us. That makes a "democracy" a rather responsible government under God's will, not man's.

We still have a choice to obey or not.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


Also, the "law" is of the people, by the people. If and when the majority sees it necessary to change the laws, they will change. If this nation is "Christian"--as they claim to be--then the laws will change. I am reminded of that little incident with Soddom and Gomorrah. Their practices were wrong. Their laws did not correct the errors. The majority was involved in sin. God saw it necessary to destroy those places with great prejudice. If our nation caves in to sinful ways by the great majority, this nation shall find its destruction. Hey, the Great Roman Empire had it all: power, wealth, knowledge, art, government, economy,etc. But, it fell when it began to give into social programs. The majority ruled. The majority wanted and wanted more from its government. That is what is happening now to America. We can't even go and fight like a real righteous powerful nation; we give in when we shouldn't. This government is now bending over...backwards...by legalizing error-- sin. Why not go ahead and legalize adultery? I'm sure that the majority would go for that. Anyway, the law of the land is not gonna bring us into God's grace.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


If Massechusettes is allowed to legalize homosexual marriages and the national government looks the other, what does that tell you about our country?

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


rod,

That is exactly why I think september 11th was a wake up call from God.

-- (@@@.@), May 17, 2004.


I have never been much of a Charismatic type believer, but on the 11th I had the overwhelming sense that we were directly involved in a Holy War event.

BTW, I am going to hear a speaker on the 20th of June. He claims that he has been called by God to rebuild the temple. He has the corner stones sitting on a flatbed waiting for their cue. He is Jewish, not Christian. It will be an extrememly interesting lecture I presume. Either this guy is over zealous or he is a flake. I forgot his name.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.


You are right about 9/11, @@@.@

-- Elpidi Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

In a real democracy , there is no place for discrimination , 'cause it's a crime & sin against humanity !!

Why not go ahead and legalize adultery?

I only believe in sex between 2 persons who really are in love with eachother , but , but , but , as long they are not cheating on their partner , married or not !! __ Cheating on your partner is wrong , and ends most of the time , in "a fight" !!

but on the 11th I had the overwhelming sense that we were directly involved in a Holy War event.

That had & has nothing to do with democracy & liberty & yes , even religion !! __ Those people died innocent , they were victims !!

If Massechusettes is allowed to legalize homosexual marriages and the national government looks the other, what does that tell you about our country?

In a very politeful manner: The government don't know the people !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 18, 2004.


In a real democracy , there is no place for discrimination , 'cause it's a crime & sin against humanity !!

There is no such thing as a real anything, especially a democracy. The majority will rule and inevitably oppress the minorities at some degree. Perfection is impossible in the hands of man.

Why not go ahead and legalize adultery? I only believe in sex between 2 persons who really are in love with eachother , but , but , but , as long they are not cheating on their partner , married or not !! __ Cheating on your partner is wrong , and ends most of the time , in "a fight" !!

This is your view, which would go against the freedoms of polygamist and "swingers". Your belief, if enforced, would oppress the minority beliefs. Where is your democracy?

but on the 11th I had the overwhelming sense that we were directly involved in a Holy War event.

That had & has nothing to do with democracy & liberty & yes , even religion !! __ Those people died innocent , they were victims !!

Everything has a purpose or reason for happening. Yes, they were victims, but who is to blame or why did it happen? It had much to do with "democracy" in that one nation attempted to cripple our freedoms with terrorism. The very fact that our nation is free is enough reason for our enemies to destroy us. Our freedom is a very threat to the control their government has on their people. America is destroying the oppression of the enslaved peoples of the world. Things just don't happen by accident.

If Massechusettes is allowed to legalize homosexual marriages and the national government looks the other, what does that tell you about our country?

In a very politeful manner: The government don't know the people !!

The majority has the power of the vote. Even atheist vote. The government is the sounding board for the people. The people must make the changes by voting the bad out and the good in. The government doesn't know its people? Well, the government doesn't react quick enough to the people.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


There is no such thing as a real anything

The dream for all of us: Utopia !!

Perfection is impossible in the hands of man.

If not created by a person , than why is it still not perferct ??

Everything has a purpose or reason for happening.

Agree , but if you know something bad is going to happen , than why not take action against it ??

Things just don't happen by accident.

Utopia banished ??

Your belief, if enforced, would oppress the minority beliefs. Where is your democracy?

The same counts for your belief or anyone else's belief or conviction !!

The government is the sounding board for the people.

Are you sure ??

The people must make the changes by voting the bad out and the good in.

Elections , yes , but what if they are screwed up ??

The government doesn't know its people? Well, the government doesn't react quick enough to the people.

Sometimes , they don't or will not even listen to the crowd !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 18, 2004.


There is no such thing as a real anything

The dream for all of us: Utopia !!

You say "Utopia"; I say "Heaven".

Perfection is impossible in the hands of man.

If not created by a person , than why is it still not perferct ??

If it is not created by man, it must have two other possibilities-- Satan or God. Man is incapable of perfection; Satan can fool man; God is perfection.

Everything has a purpose or reason for happening.

Agree , but if you know something bad is going to happen , than why not take action against it ??

For example: Homosexual marriages? Yes, we should take action against it.

Things just don't happen by accident.

Utopia banished ??

No, the state or condition of worldly and universal things. There is no such thing as randomness. Man is a fool if he believes in chaos as an excuse to problems.

Your belief, if enforced, would oppress the minority beliefs. Where is your democracy?

The same counts for your belief or anyone else's belief or conviction !!

Exactly! but some beliefs are righteous while others are frivolous.

The government is the sounding board for the people.

Are you sure ??

That's the foundation of the secular society, yes I'm sure.

The people must make the changes by voting the bad out and the good in.

Elections , yes , but what if they are screwed up ??

Ah! the blunders of man's interventions and designs.

The government doesn't know its people? Well, the government doesn't react quick enough to the people.

Sometimes , they don't or will not even listen to the crowd !!

Let's hope they listen to the faithful in God.



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


You say "Utopia"; I say "Heaven".

Utopia or Utopia banished are the only options !!

If it is not created by man, it must have two other possibilities-- Satan or God. Man is incapable of perfection; Satan can fool man; God is perfection.

Can you prove it ??

For example: Homosexual marriages? Yes, we should take action against it.

The only action I see , just leave them , they have nothing done wrong !! __ Does it hurt you

personally

they can marry ?? __ And how will you react , suppose the government would make hetero marriages (also) illegal ??

No, the state or condition of worldly and universal things. There is no such thing as randomness. Man is a fool if he believes in chaos as an excuse to problems.

Neither do I believe in total anarchy , it causes a lot of problems !!

Exactly! but some beliefs are righteous while others are frivolous.

Suppose it's the opposite ??

That's the foundation of the secular society, yes I'm sure.

Ah! the blunders of man's interventions and designs.

Than why they're screwing up on many things ??

And what if just do it their own way , and refuse to listen ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 18, 2004.


Laurent, you have rebutted my answers from a one sided point of view. I have made points and questions from both sides of the issues--secular and sacred. I do not believe that I could ever make an impact on your understanding, unless you play the other's advocate in understanding Christianity's view point. I also believe that much of your confusion may stem from your one-sided secular views. I don't mean to be disrespectful of your views at all.

I could give you a secularized answer to all of your question like this:

The only way that governments will have perfection is if and when society accepts the laws and follows them as a great majority. Who cares about the minority? The minority is powerless and moot.

But, in a Christian government, the law is powerless and moot, to a certain extent. The Christian is willing to sacrifice when the secular humanist will go in search of solutions that will only add to the total chaos that was created in the first place. The humanist is seeking "Utopia" here on earth through a self-made government without God. The Christian lives by one authority--God. All governments and laws are to be obeyed--within the framework of God's will--but, those governments are only diluted. The government does not mandate the Christian to believe in God.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


I also believe that much of your confusion may stem from your one- sided secular views. I don't mean to be disrespectful of your views at all.

No problem , but it says I'm not you & you're not me !!

Who cares about the minority? The minority is powerless and moot.

You've got a point !!

But, in a Christian government, the law is powerless and moot, to a certain extent.

What if it's another religion ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 18, 2004.


Rod, I think you finally used a word I can apply to Laurent, humanist:

The humanist is seeking "Utopia" here on earth through a self-made government without God. The Christian lives by one authority--God.

Laurent is not an Atheist per se, but a humanist. He believes that humans should strive to be good even if there is no God.

PS: Rod, do you think we live by God's authority as Christians?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


Laurent

I think that our common denominator is in the realization that a religion is also a political government. Some humanists would look at Jesus as a simple revolutionist with a social contract in his motives. Well, Jesus was that and much more.

I really do respect your views, Laurent. Sometimes I make some strong accusations only because I'm being as honest as I can be. I don't mean to belittle your opinions and views. Your views also open up my thinking to new horizons. It allows me to think more about my own faith.

Elpidio

I can only surrender to a faith under God's authority. The "government" is only temporary. Man's wants and needs are confusing and at times trivial. Really, our Salvation is the reason for our motives on this earth. The Catholic forum is making issues about the sinful nature of voting for the "wrong" candidate. It has been publicized that the Holy Eucharist could be denied for those who have voted in favor of those issues that are against Church doctrine. There is a fine line to be crossed; one borders on God's doctrine and the other borders on man-made doctrine. It can be confusing.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


Really Puzzling, Rod.

On one side, a man , A Methodist, who cares for the unborn, believes in the sanctity of marriage as between a man and a woman,he himself has been married to one, ....yet he believes in the death penalty (50 + in Texas, war at all costs,doesn't care about the elderly (social security), the environment (oil driling in Alaska, ..)

The Catholic Church supports him, even though his belief is considered heretical and according to Catholic dogma he is going to Hell.

On the Other a man who believes in choice even when sometimes he himself opposes them: people choose abortion over dealing with the consequences of pregnancy, people choose whether they can be ,married to people of the same sex,...

Yet cares about the elderly, minorities, the environment, workers,...

He is Catholic, yet the church refuses to give him the eucharist.

One serves in the military without compromising his life, and gets the respect of the military. The other compromises his life serving in war, yet gets no respect.

Follow your conscience. One we know. The other we still don't.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


Exactly! Elpidio.

It is such a paradox when the "Methodist" is thrown against the stained glass windows of the oldest church. The man is an evangelical who is even a heretic to his own U.S. Constitution. He is sworn to uphold the laws of the land, yet he upholds the doctrine of God while, at times, ignoring our Constitution. He has appointed religious leaders to particular cabinets putting the separation of church and state in limbo or unbalance. He has used Scriptures in peculiar contexts making the United States the "light" by which other nations shall find guidance. Yes, a paradox and contradiction to his supporters. Oh, what the hey, I'll probably vote for him anyway.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


This thread has meandered a bit but has made me think about my 20+ year foray into secular humanism. I even think my "liberal" Catholic education set the stage for my leaving the Church. I think many of my teachers were "Closet humanists." But now that I'm back I'm left with a notion that I bring from that period in my life. Elpidio's recognition of Laurent as a humanist, and Rod's statement, (which I'll take somewhat out of context) is what got me thinking about this. (Rod)"...our Salvation is the reason for our motives on earth."

Here we go,...You have two people:

One whose fear of the loss of salvation is the basis for all of his motives... The reason for his good deeds, for not breaking commandments, along with his prayer and regular worship. He leads a good life. The other a humanist whose good deeds and actions are motivated not by fear of damnation, but entirely because of an inherent understanding, a selfless embrace of doing what is right simply because it is right. He leads a good life.

How might these two people be "judged?" It seems to me that the person doing right "because it's right" is operating at a higher level than the one whose motivations are based entirely on fear of what will happen if he doesn't _______________ or _________ or ______. etc.

If I were in the "judgement seat," I would have a hard time sending either of these individuals south, (or north depending on your geographical attachment) I know many would feel the secular humanist would be going to Hell for his lack of faith and belief. Still I can't believe I'd be more compassionate, more understanding than God in examining these two lives.

Ultimately having faith, loving God and following his commandments, worshiping him and if you are Catholic, attending Mass, taking part in the Eucharist, and taking advantage of the sacraments which are gifts that make our journey through this life easier and for me, more complete. But in addition to faith and belief, "humanistically" doing these things simply because they are good and right, without regard of the ominous fear of damnation as the primary motivation, seems a more just path.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 18, 2004.


That's why I fel I do understand Laurent, Jim.

He is doing what he thinks is right without the fear of damnation, since he doesn't believe in it.

Yet, even God, one day, will probably have mercy on Laurent, evn more than on us Christian who like the pharisee condemned thers, but never realized we were condemning ourselves.

God Yahweh sees the heart, not the creed.

From my experience in dreams as you were able to see in the thread I have on e-mails to Bush, you can see the amount of people from different Christian creeds, religions, races, nationalities God has been showing he cares for. From Catholics: Pope,...to Protestants: Bush, Clinton, ... To Jehovah's Witnesses: Prince,...To Muslims: Afghanistan...

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


Another paradox, Rod.

You still consider yourself Catholic.Since Bush lived in Texas and was your governor, most likely will vote for him. Even thogh he is not Catholic.

I am no longer Catholc. I would most lkely vpote for the catholic one: Kerry.

Weird, isn't it?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


:-D I'm voting for Nadar.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 18, 2004.

Funny, the most paradoxical thing in my life is that I cansider myself a Catholic.

Bush

I admire a man who chooses one side or the other of a fence to stand on. He might be wrong or right, but at least we know where he stands. I don't trust the man who keeps crossing from one side to the other. It is difficult to know if such a man is right or wrong.

Jim makes an extremely strong demarcation between the humanist and the "psuedo-Christian". The humanist is depicted as honest and sincere; the "psuedo-Christian" is vain. The real Christian will sacrifice himself for another, I must keep that in mind. He does so because he has faith in God. The humanist does so because he has faith in himself and maybe for his fellow man. The humanist has no God to please while the Christian lives to glorify his God. This line of demarcation is perhaps the most critical of dividing lines. God created us so that we may choose to glorify Him--love for him spills over unto others as love for one another. Perhaps that is the missing element in humanism......of course.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


...but, look at this extreme:

Ascetism vs. Humanism.

Ascetism becomes introverted and absent from social relationships by remaining secluded in discipline, prayer, and sanctity. Spiritual support for mankind without the entanglements of socialistic problems.

Humanism becomes the stimulus of social progress or destruction by maintaining a co-dependency of the masses. It's either a case of "the blind leading the blind" or "my way or the highway".

I think that is an example of Jim's observations (a little extreme, though).

What do you think, Jim?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


The Homosexual movement falls into the "Humanism" game.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.


Rod,

I guess we can learn something from any of the many philosphical movements. You're ok until you take any one of them to an extreme.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), May 19, 2004.


Well , about transgendered people , maybe crazy to ask , but ....:

Suppose a hetero couple marries (Law & church) , after their marriage , the guy wants to become a woman and goes on with this , is this marriage still legal for any church ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 20, 2004.


In such a situation, when one of the married couple decides on changing their physical and psychological gender, the other member is free to divorce the spouse. Such a situation falls into "sexual deviation" and , of course, a complete denial of God's will. The disobedient spouse may cause the other to fall from grace, so it would be best to dissolve the marriage that has taken on a sinful nature.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 20, 2004.


Marriage is solely the union of one man with one woman under God's authority.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 20, 2004.


So , if they not want to divorce ??

btw , is it illegal to change your sex ??

And why some people want to change it ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 20, 2004.


So , if they not want to divorce ??

That's between them and God, I suppose.

btw , is it illegal to change your sex ??

It's been done before. I wonder if they must first sign a death certificate and then a birth certificate? I don't mean that as a joke either.

And why some people want to change it ??

There are legitimate reasons. Some infants born with ambiguous anatomy have been incorrectly assigned there physical gender and lived with the adverse effects, later to have the reassignments for that correction. Then, there are those who claim that they have always been a gender and wish to be reassigned their correct gender. Then there are the poor confused souls who don't know Adam from Eve.

........


Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 14, 2005.



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 20, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ