Channel NewsAsia, 08 May 2004, AFP

VATICAN CITY: The abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers is a scandal offensive to God himself, the Vatican said, in its first public comment.

"Violence against people offends God himself, who made humans in his own image," the Vatican's foreign minister, Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, said in a pre-recorded television interview due to be broadcast later on Friday.

He condemned the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, made public last week, as "episodes of brutality, contrary to the most elementary human rights and radically contrary to Christian morals".

"The scandal is even worse if these episodes were committed by Christians," Lajolo said in the interview, due to be shown on Italian state television's TG2 news programme.

"You have to emphasize, all the same, that in a democracy such offences are not hidden away -- as is the case in the United States, where those responsible are judged and punished along with their superiors who did not fulfil their duty to monitor them," he said.

Lajolo said he hoped Iraq would regain its independence and sovereignty as soon as possible, that the country would be led by "a competent Iraqi leader, recognized as such by the people", and that the United Nations would be given "a defining role" in the oil-rich country.

He said he was optimistic that the return to Iraq on Thursday of UN special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi meant the UN could soon assume that role.

On Thursday Lajolo's predecessor as Vatican foreign minister, French cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, condemned the abuse and alleged torture of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers.

"These images have a terrible effect on Arab populations and throughout the world," Tauran said in an interview with the Italian daily La Stampa.

"When one ridicules human dignity like that, one puts up barriers," added Tauran, who until recently was the top foreign policy official at the Holy See. "When one conducts war, one must respect the law."

He said that normally the US military did not behave in such a way and the photographs of the abuse were "deplorable".

He added that the US-led war in Iraq had clearly not succeeded in eradicating terrorism.

"The pope had reasons for denouncing the idea of a preventive war and it is clear that this war has not done away with terrorism," he said.

__________

John Paul, there you go again.

Sen. Inhof put this into proper perspective when he said the only "scandal" is pretending this is a "scandal". If we cracked a few heads in the name of liberty and justice, so be it. They can thank Allah that they weren't beheaded.

-- I remember 911 (CJE90221@Semper.Fi), May 13, 2004

Answers

when the whole church abuse scandal broke, Pope John Paul II called the American cardinals in to basically pimp smack them over allowing that kind of crap to occur.

-- Jacob R. (jacobrainey@hotmail.com), May 13, 2004.

Yeah like Rush Limbaugh said, it was no worse than a few college pranks. The trouble with this Pope guy and those Eye-rakkies and the other Ay-rabs is they just don't understand the great American sense of humor. Geez, lighten up guys! What's the point of having a war if you can't get a few laughs out of it?

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 13, 2004.

I too remember 911, I don't think I'll ever forget. As Archbishop Lajolo says Violence against people offends God himself, who made humans in his own image

This thread is obviously meant as a "jab" at those here who think this is a just war. But I see little in this statement to disagree with. This has all been discussed before. The abuses at Abu Ghraib are deplorable and we all condemn them. But as Archbishop Lajolo says "You have to emphasize, all the same, that in a democracy such offences are not hidden away -- as is the case in the United States, where those responsible are judged and punished along with their superiors who did not fulfil their duty to monitor them,"

I agree that These images have a terrible effect on Arab populations and throughout the world We now know the effect it had on Al-Qaeda. Will the Vatican comment on the hacking of Nick Berg's head. I hope so. We'll wait and see. I'm sure Nick Berg's family would rather he wore a pair of panties on his head to the treatment he received at the hands of Al-Qaeda. Is the "arab street" as up in arms about Nick Berg as about Abu Ghraib?" Where is the Iraqi or Arab Martin Luther King, or Ghandi, or Pope John Paul II as regards to Nick Berg?

We should continue to pray for peace in Iraq, for humane treatment of all parties, for the end of terrorism. It hasn't been easy, and we shouldn't expect it to be.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crnae@cranemills.com), May 14, 2004.

“Will the Vatican comment on the hacking of Nick Berg's head. I hope so. We'll wait and see.”

They just did:

“the US-led war in Iraq had clearly not succeeded in eradicating terrorism. The pope had reasons for denouncing the idea of a preventive war and it is clear that this war has not done away with terrorism.”

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 14, 2004.

All fans of Larry (the smart one) and Curley (the innocent one) resent your remark. This war is clearly being run solo by Moe (the violent racist one with the short fuse). But as long as we can sell the Eye-rakkies Krispy Kreme donuts, then it's worth losing a few heads. God bless America!

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 14, 2004.

the Vatican is too polite to remind us that the war has INCREASED terrorism.

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 14, 2004.

How so Gerry?

BTW, I love how all of these smart alecks have pseudonyms like "Joker", "I remember 911," "bushintank," "the Muse" etc. I disagree with Gerry on everything about the war, it seems, but at least he is man enough to use his name.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 14, 2004.

I sign myself "Joker" to point out that I'm joking, because some people on this site are so out of touch with reality that they would take me literally and applaud me. As it is, I had to read "Convinced's" post 3 times before I realised he/she was joking, because I have seen several people on this site say exactly the same things in deadly earnest.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 14, 2004.

moderators,

first, this is a highly political thread with an insulting title. the sick level of sarcasm used here is not only not creative, but not constructive to any means of debate either... all it is is couple different people POSING to be believing in one thing, spouting absolute fallacy in regards to that position, and then doing it again under a different screen name.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 14, 2004.

I'm sorry you're not amused Paul, but if you want to remove every thread that does the things you mention, there would be very few threads left. And I don't know if any others are double identities but none of the other names here belong to me.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 14, 2004.

What happens when Joker's jokes fall flat? These aren't laughing matters. A sad fact is, the prison ''guards'' accused of abuses were all having fun; they were ''joking''. You can see it in their faces, as they played with the inmates. Why imitate the worst side of America?

Gerry has all the answers, of course. It's just evil, through and through. NOT. Here's a typical ignorant opinion from Gerry: ''The Vatican is too polite to remind us that the war has INCREASED terrorism.'' Is this a fact? How do you back that up; since the Bible isn't information on terrorism? And-- precisely how did ''the Vatican'' reach this ''conclusion''------Hm?

Here's a fact: One bishop is no authority on how terrorism has increased. Not even the Pope, I'm sorry. 'The Vatican'' has no access to real information. The bishops read ordinary newspapers and watch television, just as gerry does. gerry swallows everything the leftist media feeds, and so do some bishops. This is a fact.

Has terrorism increased since 9-11? No; it has come way DOWN. There hasn't been a new 9-11 in this country, and we should realsie, it would surely have recurred, if we hadn't entered Afghanistan, and later on Iraq. These were the hotbeds of Jihad and terror. Remeber the ''playing cards'' showing terrorist big-shots, including Saddam?

Almost all of those terrorists are now dead or imprisoned. It happened because America started defending herself. It happened, not because the Vatican caught a terrorist in Saint Peter's, but because our country is tracking down and eliminationg these animals, one at a time.

Supposing this weren't so? We would have likely had dozens more attacks on our homeland. Notice the terrorist cells shifted activities to other, european states? But they're being stopped even there. Italian police and military caught a group of muslim agents from the middle east that had been preparing to bomb the Vatican. What idf we quit fighting? Will anybody gtuarantee the next 9-11 isn't your city? Or a city in Europe? Let's pull out of Iraq and find out.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 14, 2004.

Where is Senator Blutarski when you need him? He is the only person who can bring order to Iraq.

-- J. Fernandes (goana@hotmail.com), May 14, 2004.

again, moderator,

i request that the red herring logical fallacy of this title be changed to something more appropriate for this forum. the title remains MOST innappropriate in this environment.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 14, 2004.

Yes, Moderator, you must purge this thread post haste. It's very obvious that liberals have infiltrated our sacred forum and are trying to make some of us appear hypocritical. It's outrageous! I demand that you take a stand against these heretics in the name of all that's good and holy.

-- I remember 911 (CJE90221@Semper.Fi), May 14, 2004.

You got one thing right. These aren't laughing matters. You better tell the army that.

You think the war hasn’t increased terrorism because there’s been no terrorism in the USA for 3 years. If you think what the pope and bishops say is just because thevatican' has no access to real information and the bishops just swallows everything the leftist media feeds, don’t pretend to be a catholic.

Obvously you don’t Remeber the ''playing cards'' were members of saddams regime, not “ terrorist big-shots”.

There have been plenty of terrism outside USA in last 3 years and it would have been worse except for the police and courts in countries like Indonesia, Malaysa, Pakistan and Marocco tracked down and prosecuted and imprison some of the terrorists. Guess what there all Moslim countries! And insted of gratitude? Ignorant americans saying “mohammed = hatred and the Antichrist.”

Meanwhile Osama binladen and his top men are sitting there laughing watching the USA and Iraqis slug it out to the death. They cant believe there luck, just when we had them on the run, the Usa turned tail and attacked Iraq instead and pretend they were attacking bin Laden.

You call me ignorant and tell me to just shut up and read your post and not post anything, unless it agres with Bush policy of course. You show youre more ignorant.

and war IS a pro-life issue. A big one.

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 14, 2004.

Gerry,

-you miss the point -- IT is not whether anything agrees with 'Bush policy' -- IT is always comparison & contrast to Truth; Church teaching...

Therefore, to argue the merits of 'Bush policy' relative to any other policy by comparing IT relative to anything but Truth is nothing more than babble... e.g. Bush is wrong; therefore, Kerry is right OR Kerry is more wrong; therfore, Bush is more right...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 14, 2004.

Thank you, Phil;
No way am I infallible. I have a private opinion just like others do. Would you like for me to conform to yours?

Letting everyone see Gerry's ignorance --''The Vatican is too polite to remind us that the war has INCREASED terrorism.''--

Is an objective opinion. If the Vatican could really say whether terrorism has increased, as a fact-- I would never presume to deny it. But, in fact, the Vatican can't accomplish that. They are a religious institution, not a political one. The bishops can have some kind of collective opinion, but not in any infallible way, about global terrorism.

When an obvious child comes here to claim the Vatican knows ''terrorism has increased'' we can do only two things. Judge it ignorant, or just laugh. You don't have to be infallible to see ignorance. War in Iraq has not increased terrorism. Terrorists may try to increase it, but they are losing the fight.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 14, 2004.

Gerry again exposes his ignorance. Poor kid.

''If you think what the Pope and bishops say is just because the Vatican has no access to real information and the bishops just swallow everything the leftist media feeds, don't pretend to be a Catholic.''

Gerry: I'm a Catholic from the cradle and will die a faithful Catholic. You are a Catholic who relishes arguing without informing yourself first.

The Pope & our bishops can express their opinions just as we do. They are qualified as far as morality and the faith are concerned. What they do NOT have is access to military and diplomatic intelligence; much of which can cause governments to act or not act. That's the present case in Iraq. Furthermore, our bishops have no legitimate authority to act as decision-makers for sovereign states like America.

The Pope can warn. He can admonish and give spiritual guidance or advice. But as a statesman he is necessarily limited by a lack of state authority. We are a nation of laws. He cannot make laws in countries that haven't elected him. All he can do is attempt to influence leaders. States are free under international law to act without him, rightly or not. Saint Peter was the first Pope. God loved Peter much more than Caesar, but He didn't expect Peter to go before Caesar and demand obedience. Jesus said once, ''Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.''

When Catholics are not in complete agreement with their government, they must vote new leaders in. They cannot depend on the Church to influence the decisions of their country. Particularly when the Church has no access to intelligence, as in this matter.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 14, 2004.

Thanks for agreeing with me Daniel. I keep trying to tell the “man” who calls ME ignorant that his beliefs are the opposite of Truth as shown in the Church teaching, but he wont listen. Its him who insist that its all about Bush verses kerry. It’s him, not the church who “has no access to intelligence”. And no access to politeness either by the look of it. Being a catholic in the cradle isn’t enough you actually have to follow the ruiles even when you don’t feel like it. "You must obey God rather than man."

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 15, 2004.

Dear Gerry:
In case it strikes you that Daniel agrees with you; go back and read his post once more. He did NOT.

As for you being able to determine what is Catholic teaching (Truth), it's hard to call you anything but ignorant. But brains have nothing to do with it. We have not contradicted any Catholic teaching, nor the words of Jesus Christ. It is YOU who twist those teachings into an anti-war creed. You're not just pitifully ignorant, you're a fanatic.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2004.

Dear eugene c. chavez:

In case it strikes you that Daniel agrees with you; go back and read his post once more. He did NOT. Except for telling me “you miss the point” everything he said is exactly what im saying.

As for you being able to determine what is Catholic teaching (Truth), it's hard to call you anything but ignorant. You have contradicted Catholic teaching, the words of Jesus Christ. It is YOU who twist those teachings into an pro-war creed.

Peter K was right I shoulnt waste my breath on you . Him and Ed tried to tell you very patently and wisely but you don’t even red what they say. That’s why I didn’t want you to involve me in your arguements because you only abuse anyone who disagree and you ignore what Jesus and the Popes say and you call them all stupid.

Maybe what other people say is right too, you don’t mean what you say its just a sick joke. Or else you living in a total fantsy world where the church not only accepts war it tells us we MUST wage war!! You're not just pitifully ignorant, you're a fanatic. I will leave you in your fantsy world .

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 16, 2004.

Four words for you, Gerry: Don't be a fool.

Never once have I said the Catholic Church teaches we must make war. Find a sentence in my posts where I did, I'll ask forgiveness. --Nor have I ''ignored Jesus Christ,'' or called Him & the Pope ''stupid.'' These are figments of your imagination. I DID, perhaps unwisely, refer to YOU as a fanatic.

But what you actually are now, is disarmed. What you thought were good arguments against the war in Iraq turned out to be duds. You haven't got the rationale. And if you think it's sly to ignore every legitimate question I've asked; it's not. It's intellectually dihonest. Answer them, please:

Do you have regrets that Saddam Hussein was defeated? Were you unhappy because he was brought down, since we were immorally attacking Iraq? Did his torture chambers, rape rooms, mass murders, gassing & burning of innocents, terrorist support & funding; --Did they deserve to be protected by the Bible's teachings? By Christ? By the Pope? Are you angry at our armies for fighting a despot and beast?

If so, we haven't much more to argue; you are on terrorism's side, not God's. If not, you must see at last that GOD destroys evil states and brutal dictators; and we are only His servants when we fight.

If you fail again to answer these questions, I'll know you are anti-American and anti-peace. You support terrorists.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 16, 2004.

“Never once have I said the Catholic Church teaches we must make war. Find a sentence in my posts where I did, I'll ask forgiveness.”…then you do it AGAIN “we are only His servants when we fight.”

Your socalled ‘legitimate questions “ have been answered very patently and at great length by Peter k and Ed and others You pretend you want to debate but you questions are just bait. But you not interested in answers to your “questions” you just want to abuse. calling everyone who supports Jesus and popes and bishops teaching about war, “a fool, totally clueless, an obvious child, sniveling and unmanly, Crybabies, idiots, ignorant, lacking intelligence, and “friend of Saddam” and “support terrorists”. You may be 66 but you still havnt grow up. Anyway you never ansered the questions Peter K asked you?

It is you who are the real anti American blindly insisting the church endorse the war despite the fact the church condems it. Folowing churchs teachings dosnt make you antiamerican it makes you a better citizen.

This is what youre doing: “Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Hermann Goering

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 16, 2004.

Dear Gerry:
I'm sorry I made you get so emotional.

''Boo-hoo. . . calling everyone who supports Jesus and popes and bishops teaching about war, fool, totally clueless, an obvious child, sniveling and unmanly, Crybabies, idiots, ignorant, lacking intelligence, and friends of Saddam” and support terrorists''. Wow, how could I ? Particularly when I also support Jesus, Pope, and bishops? (What HAVE they taught about war?)

Do you read a war newsletter from the Pope I don't? Let's hear a passage or two out of that. I may learn a little about war that was missing from our repertory.

You say you can't? You say it's not written in a book?

If you do not support terrorists, why are you angry? Iraq was a supplier, sympathizer and conspirator to terrorism; global terrorism, gerry. Aren't you glad Saddam can no longer help Jihadists and killers obtain deadly biological weapons, maybe nuclear devices? Or pay suicide bombers' famlies for sending their children into public places loaded with explosives?

Did you see Saddam's torture and murder and rapes and mutilations as normal for a government? OK by you? It's not nice to upset the status quo in Iraq? You feel bad now? Poor Saddam! He was a fine man.

''I am '' blindly insisting the church endorse the war despite the fact the church condems it?'' OK. If you say so, Gerry. The Church didn't condemn anything. Just warned; and disapproved of war, favoring ''diplomacy''. But to fanatics, that's good enough. Anything EXCEPT action. If being PASSIVE and INDIFFERENT to suffering is holy, then you're a saint, Gerry.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

Im not angry i just pity you living in your fantsy world. I will leave you to enjoy youself in it with your lies about the Pope. Thank God there are only a few of you who are still so totally blinded to the churchs teaching by what they think is being a man and suporting america.

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 17, 2004.

Thanks. I pity you too.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

I remember, I have removed 6 posts of yours you made under assumed names. This is against our rules. You may not post under more than one name in any given thread. Please refrain from this practice in the future.

Paul h. thanks for bringing this to my attention. In the future should anyone want to inform me of something untoward in any given thread, please submit it to my email account where I will spot it sooner. Thank you.

Moderator

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 17, 2004.