I am really confused about what happens when we die. Supposing a person dies in the Grace of God, has confessed his sins, but still has to spend some time in Purgatory. Ok, my question is this: when do we see God? A priest told me that at the moment we die, we will behold the face of God. But, will we see God while in Purgatory? And what does it mean that the dead will be raised from the grave at the end of time? How can we be in Heaven, yet be in Purgatory, and yet still be in the grave?

Thanks for your help.

-- Helen (confused@home.com), May 13, 2004

Answers

Bump to New Answers to invite comment.

-- (bump@bump.bump), May 13, 2004.

Purgatory is the doctrine based on both the Old Testament account of Maccabee's command that people pray for the soldiers who died in battle (fighting for Yahweh) but who had been wearing pagan jewelry...thus in sin. In other words, they died for sin but not grave enough sin to forever blot them out of God's favor, so prayers for their souls were seen as somehow beneficial to them.

It is also based on the New Testament verses wherein Jesus went to preach to the dead - and the various Pauline and Petrine letters which mention that believer's works should include prayer for the dead and that some people who die "in the Lord" will experience a loss and purifying fire before approaching the Lord.

Basically what happens is this: death is the separation of the human spiritual soul from the body. Now the human soul contains our intellect and will - it is that part of our person which is most involved in virtue and vice (good habits and bad)...the good habits dispose us to being utterly open to the selfless love of God and other people whereas the bad habits close us in on ourselves.

If a person turns away from God and others through a freely chosen and grave act, (mortal sin) and then dies...the soul will have no where to "go" but inward - a spiritual black hole - loving only itself for eternity.

But if the sin in question (or habit of sin, or love of some lesser good) isn't mortal, doesn't totally shut off our love for God and others, then at death this has to be "purged" away - like gold being purified in fire (which was Peter's allusion).

Think of it this way: the embarrassment we feel in the presence of some truly good friend who has just overheard us criticize them unfairly...our faces turn red, our hearts pound, we feel awful... all out of shame. Before the infinite love and goodness of God the human soul's intellect and will are purified of all that is not holy.

Many ancient texts talk about the fire of purgatory - conjuring up images of flames and the rack...but this is silly and wasn't meant to be descriptive. These images are supposed to help us understand something else about that temporary state prior to entering heaven. After all, souls in purgatory DON'T HAVE A BODY with which to suffer fire!

But we can feel the "searing flash" of God's justice and our sin intellectually: suddenly knowing the TRUTH of God and the justice of His will while understanding in that instant all the non-truths we may have believed, all the lies we may have told, all the hurtful words or gossip we may be responsible for... and the effects these have had on others... what could be worse than seeing evil coming from ourselves? In this awful vision, our minds are purged clean from all that is not true, good, and loving...

Ditto for our will: we suddenly are before the Love of God and must let go of all other little or lesser goods our hearts may have desired or lusted for in addition to or against the Love of God and neighbor. Whether this process of letting go of such little loves or illicit loves takes an instant or longer, such letting go so as to "Let in God" can be a searing fire too.

But in any case the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory isn't a fiction. It's a CONCLUSION based on scripture and all that we know about human nature and the rest of revelation regarding what happens to the human person in this life and the next.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Hi Helen,

Please see this thread for more on purgatory: Purgatory - A Look at Scripture and Catholic Teaching.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

well, helen, let me try to shed some light on your questions:

my question is this: when do we see God?

You can see God even here. Go to church, see the eucharist? that is God (Jesus) in person and physical presence. I see God when i study physics... He's everywhere in the balance and harmony of natural law.

A priest told me that at the moment we die, we will behold the face of God.

yeah, he's probably right, but then again, who can be absolutely sure?

But, will we see God while in Purgatory?

yes, again, probably. we will see the presence of God in many aspects, and it will be joy, because we are able to one day be with God in heaven, but there will also be sorrow, because while we can see God, we cannot be in communion with Him because our sins seperate us from His perfection.

And what does it mean that the dead will be raised from the grave at the end of time?

When Jesus comes at the end of time, those who are dead in Him will be raised from the dead. this produces the long standing (and probably false) belief that people who die are not really dead, but actually asleep and waiting for the second coming of Christ. i say this is probably false for several reasons but one is the fact that on the last day it says that Jesus will return a second time and with him will be all the dead in Him along with the angels and saints as the host (read: army) of the Lord. if they're asleep and theyre still HERE it would be hard for them to return from somewhere else, wouldnt it? i think that the dead will be raised from the grave refers to the return of the dead as the host of the Lord in the last judgement.

How can we be in Heaven, yet be in Purgatory, and yet still be in the grave?

you can't. your OLD body remains in the grave, but we know that when we die we inherit a new body. YOU are elsewhere. if you go to purgatory, you cannot be in heaven at the same time. imagine i stand in the street and look through a locked bulletproof glass door at something. i am not in the building merely because i can see that object, instead i must do something to get into this building. purgatory is like that street, God is the object we see but cannot reach, and repentance and reconciliation is the key by which we unlock that door. I imagine the same goes for hell, except that the street would be more like a river of lava, and the repentance key doesnt seem to fit in the lock...

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 13, 2004.

Nobody seems to know the right answer to , "What happens when we die ??"!! __ I say , death is the end , but just as you I can't prove it !!

As long no-one comes up with real evidence , so than , who's telling the thruth about death ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 13, 2004.

I have always wondered this. How will we KNOW where in purgatory and not hell? Oh man! What if we were in purgatory suffering and thought it was hell, that would be awful. Yikes.

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), May 13, 2004.

We know by faith in Jesus Christ we will live forever if we follow him. He Himself is living proof that there is life after death. He was raised from the dead after having died on the cross. There were hundreds of witnesses who saw Him again after His resurrection, alive and glorified; never more to die.

They saw, they believed and they told the Good News to all the world. We know their words are true, since not even death-- pain and martyrdom-- would convince them otherwise.

A man like Laurent will believe anything he wants as long as he is not threatened with death. But, let's say he must die for believing it. He can't allow it to cost him his life. He will deny it even if he thinks it's true. It's called self-preservation.

Yet, many hundreds of saints who knew the truth were unwilling to deny Christ --even to save their lives. They accepted death by crucifixion, killed by beasts in the Roman arenas, burnt alive, cooked alive-- But they knew all along that Christ is the Son of God. He has risen from the dead; and that proves we also will rise. Jesus promised us who believe in Him: We will never die. (John 11 :25, 26)

''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, even if he die, shall live; and whoever lives and believes in me, shall never die.''

Martha, to whom Jesus was here speaking, answered for the whole Church: ''YES, LORD, I BELIEVE THAT THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD WHO HAS COME INTO THE WORLD.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2004.

Hey Laurent, the sad thing is if a christain dies and that's it for life (as in the athiest belief was correct) he forever sleeps without dreams. But if an athiest dies and Christianity is correct, judgment and eternal hell! Not something to gamble on.

I was an athiest once and laughed at christianity, but as I grew up I studied it, the history, events of miracles, scientific facts within the bible before ALL the world knew them to be true, and science in genral and it all led me to believe that life is no "accident."

There is a God!

-- Simon (Robert@noemail.nts), May 13, 2004.

Laurent,

You should check out this book Beyond Death's Door. It's about a doctor who asked patients about their experiences after clinical death when they came back to life. It's quite a fascinating view into the afterlife, and provides documented evidence that one exists.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Paul; let me correct something you wrote:

''you can't. your OLD body remains in the grave, but we know that when we die we inherit a new body. YOU are elsewhere.''

That's not so. We have a ''personal judgment'' in God's divine presence after we leave this world in spirit. Upon our death. This isn't the LAST Judgment, which is at the 2nd coming of Our Lord in the clouds of heaven. In that last judgment, our bodies are to rise from the grave and go to meet our souls. Together again, the organism we NOW live within --Shall face Him for our last judgment. The ones in purgatory, as well as in hell; and the souls who live now in heaven, separated of their own bodies since time began. All will be resurrected at last.

No intermediate ''body'' is exchanged for a period in purgatory. We all are to be re-united with the same body that lives here in time today. Meanwhile, as the Church always taught, we pray for the release of the suffering souls in purgatory. They have no body, but suffer in some other way, until they finally enter heaven. It might be tomorrow. Or; it might be in the last day, when He comes to judge the living and the dead.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2004.

Joe- concerning your statement "the soul will have no where to "go" but inward - a spiritual black hole - loving only itself for eternity." Are you saying there is no burning hell? I think Jehovah's Witnesses believe similarly that souls that don't make the 144k in heaven, or to the paradise on Earth, are destroyed. Could you please clarify? Thanks.

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 13, 2004.

Emily , 'cause of eye-sight , I can't read books , but thx for the tip , I think , in my country , it's not available in stores !!

-- Simon , I'm not here to make fun with catholics or anyone else , I only tell my thoughts !!

About that gambling , that's like what I said , no-one knows the answer !!

Why is life created , if has to die ?? __ That's too crazy !!

Eugene wrote:

A man like Laurent will believe anything he wants as long as he is not threatened with death. But, let's say he must die for believing it. He can't allow it to cost him his life. He will deny it even if he thinks it's true. It's called self-preservation.

Eugene , I was threatened (twice): once on the streets , a guy with knife , and also once by 2 persons at home !! .... Even I never hope so , I think you have to experience it , only than you will know it !!

1 - It's my right to save my life !!

2 - I never colaborate with enemies !!

3 - I will protect my family & my girlfriend , even it will cost me my life !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 13, 2004.

Laurent,

Long time no talk my friend. How is it you can't read books but can read a computer screen? Or do you have a talking screen?

I know you think I'm wasting my time, but I pray for you because you are gambling. Your soul is in grave jeopardy. There are only two ways you exist here on earth. Either God created you, or you are the natural development of some matter colliding eons ago by chance. You are gambling that you exist because of the latter. You say, "why is life created, if has to die__Thats too crazy." But we've been down this road before. There are plenty of threads in this forum addressing this. You've hung around long enough that you can't claim ignorance. The answer is in the Bible, its in this forum, but you choose to ignore it. :-( Like the old saying goes: If you don't believe in God you'd better be right

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 13, 2004.

Dear Helen, At the moment I am reading a book on purgatory. Its Purgatory explained by the lives and legends of the saints authored by Fr F.X Schouppe S. J. May be you can get it from a catholic library and read. Hope it will help. God bless, Ramanie.

-- Ramanie Weerasinghe (lilanw@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

OFF-topic:

Hello Brian , Long time no talk my friend. , yep !!

Eyes are strange things , I even suffer from a "tunnel-vision" (Sorry , but I don't know another word for that) ?? __ Some people even say to me , why not than buying stronger glasses ?? __ It seems they're not understanding the problem , not every eye is the same !! __ I have a girlfriend with a bad eye-sight , strange enough she still can read books , but she can't read from a computerscreen or she needs a magnifying-glass , but even than .... , or even watching TV for a very long time is a big problem !! __ Or other persons only need glasses to read or/and to drive a car !! __ Like I said , eyes are strange things !!

PS: The distance between my eyes & screen = 20-25cm , 17'screen

BACK topic:

Brian , I believe in life , 'cause I'm an optimist , but how it all started , I reakkyy can't explain , just as you all !! __ I don't talk about death , 'cause it's the end !! __ I still think about my father , grand-parents , they all are in my mind , I think that's what life is after death !! __ Or , if you have kids , they are a part of you !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 14, 2004.

reakkyy = really

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 14, 2004.

''Don't talk about death , 'cause it's the end !! __ I still think about my father , grand-parents , they all are in my mind , I think that's what life is after death''

Says laurent. May I ask you, Laurent: Do you suppose the world was here, a concrete, visible world, in which your ancestors and your family lived, BEFORE YOUR BIRTH?

Yes; it cannot be denied. You couldn't see it because you were only a potential human being within the persons of your parents. You were unable to know. Yet, HERE you are, now.

The same way all existed before you came to be, it still exists FOR YOUR SOUL-- after you are taken away. Your father and your grandparents are living today; except you CAN'T SEE. You can't prove. Worst, you refuse to believe, because there's ''no proof''. But when you were the embryo of Laurent; you had no proof there was even a world in existence. YOU KNOW IT NOW.

You will also know there is heaven and hell, after you pass away. But there will never be an opportunity for FAITH after you pass away. Now is the only time you have for faith. You were born into a world you never knew anything about, as the Laurent fetus. You were given a human heart & soul by your Creator. He asks your faith. You can give it, or you can deny Him. He will never force you.

He did not force your father; but your father believed (you said?) Your father has not stopped existing. He is either in God's glory, or in purgatory. I won't say where else he might be.

If you deny God, you will not go to heaven after this life. But you will know about the other place. For sure. Because God commands us to believe. One thing we are commanded to have: FAITH. Nothing is greater than faith in God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 14, 2004.

Eugene , the world was there before I was born !! __ Proof: If my parents never met eachother , I wouldn't exist !!

How life started , I said: I really can't explain , just as you all !!

All the dead persons are living in your mind / thoughts , you're talking about them !!

What is a soul ??

Purgatory , heaven , hell , soul ?? __ Is there any proof of it ?? __ You're talking about it , but you can't prove its'existence ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 15, 2004.

Alas Laurent,

What you ask for can't be given. These are issues of faith and as such, must be approached from an entirely different perspective. These can not be discussed like a theory of gravity, or relativity. That's material world stuff. I can understand where you come from as I've been there myself. I think "faith" is more difficult for some than others. I have ongoing struggles with it. But because having having faith is not easy, does not mean it should be abandoned. Kierkegaard was a pretty bright guy and he suggested we should make a "leap" for it. I was never much good at the "standing broad jump" but I've got my tennis shoes on.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 15, 2004.

Laurent:
It's a shame you must depend on weak arguments to try to prove a negative. The fact that your soul did not yet exist, while the world & your parents already existed, provides us this insight:

You are no more entitled to demand proof of life AFTER death; than you would be entitled to say there was no life BEFORE your birth. You were conceived and born ignorant of our existence. You are approaching life after death ignorant of the life to come. By giving you LIFE at your birth, God gave you PROOF of the existence of life. HE proved it, because without Him, you wouldn't have life.

He will prove to you SOON the existence of heaven and hell; when your present life ends. We must judge the future by looking back at the past.

No one is ever given ''proof''. Life is a surprise, when you receive it. Knowing this, we should be able to realise God will also surprise us when this life is over. In fact, He has told us this Himself. He revealed it in His Divine Son who was raised from the dead. It's a historical event. --A fact.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2004.

Jim , thx

Eugene wrote: No one is ever given ''proof''. Life is a surprise, when you receive it.

Thx , that's the right answer !!

But what about dead born babies ??

Eugene , I wrote:

"If my parents never had met eachother , I wouldn't exist !!"

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 15, 2004.

Laurent:
We can thank God Almighty who brought your goor parents together, for giving you life. And my own, who met as well because of God's Will.

The Creator of all things seen and unseen, who knows all from the beginning without end, has no problem causing two people to come together to preserve the life of all humankind.

As to babies born dead, it is what we know as the mystery of iniquity, death of innocents. God may permit this to happen. He doesn't cause it.

There's a fine protestant hymn called, ''His Eye Is On the Sparrow.'' (Maybe one of our contibutors can tell you the words.) It says, Not one sparrow falls which God does not care for. Jesus told us, ''If the Father loves the little sparrows where ever they go,

How much more must He love YOU; the glorious Creation who is made in His own Image?'' And Jesus should KNOW. He IS God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 16, 2004.

Eugene, Amen. Well said.

His Eye is on the Sparrow.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 16, 2004.

We should rejoice with the babies who are born dead, they go directly to heaven and live in eternal extacy with God. There is no reason to feel sad for them. The parents I feel sorry for because they will not see the soul they help to creat grow up into adulthood, but the baby is enjoying themselves!

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 16, 2004.

"We should rejoice with the babies that are born dead.."

We should but that is easier said than done!

May God bless all the parents out their that have lost a baby and help them to understand that they can offer this suffering up to Jesus.

Blessed be our holy God who never sleeps.

Our Lady of Sorrows pray for us.

-- - (David@excite.com), May 16, 2004.

And what with disabled born a baby ??

A dead born or a disabled baby is one of the worst things that can happen for the parents , but you talk like it's nothing !! __ It "kills" them inside !! __ Just as more parents , also my parents had a dead born baby !! __ My mom , sometimes , she still talking about it , even after 40 years , so she still need it to talk about that baby , and it's 100% ok to talk about it , but it seems you don't understand this at all , you only talk with big words !! __ Well , I wished that I had known my brother !!

Thx for the appreciation , it's one of the worst I ever have read !!!!

The Creator of all things seen and unseen, who knows all from the beginning without end, has no problem causing two people to come together to preserve the life of all humankind.

As to babies born dead, it is what we know as the mystery of iniquity, death of innocents. God may permit this to happen. He doesn't cause it.

Sorry , I call it sadistic !!

btw , Who created the creator ??

------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------

Bill , do you have kids ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 17, 2004.

Laurent,
As much as we try to answer you cordially here, it is sometimes too clear that you aren't very bright. (with all due respect.) You are SO sympathetic to your own Mother: ''My mom , sometimes , she still talking about it , even after 40 years , so she still need it to talk about that baby , and it's 100% ok,'' --What's so tough about recalling a lost baby 40 years after? Is she going crazy over that? It happens all the time, Laurent. Get over it. This is a phony excuse of yours, to ''BLAME'' a God whom you refuse to accept for something natural.

Stillborn babies are NOT a tragedy. The souls of such children never die. Handicaps are not such a tragedy either. Yes, they're hardships for the baby and parents. But LOVE is what prepares us for those things. Love is not taken away from the baby just because he isn't born perfect. God loves every soul, and maybe the unhealthy child most of all.

Jesus gave sight to one man who was blind from birth. God knows why some people have tragic lives; but they will have eternal happiness in the next life, because God is LOVE!

It was the sins of man in the beginning which brought unhappiness in this life. But through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, man is saved. He can enter a new life in Jesus Christ to take the place of the life this world gives; which brings so much sorrow.

Your good mother knows. Her baby will be in heaven waiting for her when she is taken from this world.. She will meet him again in the arms of her Saviour!

No, He is not sadistic. He is merciful and loving. We know it because He gave us His Holy Son Jesus; to die for our salvation on the cross. Greater love has no man, than to lay down his life for his friends. That's who our God is.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

As much as we try to answer you cordially here, it is sometimes too clear that you aren't very bright.

So , you think I'm nuts and also looking for cheap excuses (such as , using my mom) ??

Plz , wake up and explain yourself !!

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

About my mom , first of all , she never forget it , she talking about it , yes , maybe once , twice a year , if that makes her mad ?? ____ I defend my mom with my own life if necessary , already I did defend her with my own fists twice !! __ My mom is not crazy or wathever !!

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Handicaps are not such a tragedy either

And how do you know that ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 17, 2004.

You must always be proud of your Mom. I'm saying it's normal to remember a lost child. But it doesn't mean the pain will never end.

Handicapped kids are a sad thing. But; as I was saying; also happens everywhere in the world. Christ healed sick, and lame, blind, and lepers.

Life for some is wonderful, for others painful. But it is soon past. God promises to reward faith. Whoever suffered in this life without cursing Him, is given eternal happiness in heaven. ''He will wipe away every tear,'' the Holy Bible tells us. Jesus suffered enormous pain, betrayal, sorrow. He accepted the cross. We who believe know we must follow the example.

Those who are without faith only feel left out. Out of ''life's lottery''--finished. Out of the good experiences, the wealth, the honor.

But it's so much better to suffer here in this life, and be comforted in heaven. Than to be filled with satisfaction now and suffer forever in hell, later. You asked me: ''Handicaps are not such a tragedy either --And how do you know that ?''

Because-- I have suffered so much, Laurent; if I hadn't been a Christian, I would have killed myself. That's how I know. God comforts me. I have sad dreams even now, and often. Dreams of how it once was. And because I had love for Him, God changed my life. Why-- How-- did you think I taught myself everything we speak about here? From a magazine? No-- from suffering. From faith and love. Now I offer this to people like you. But they don't want good advice. They rather belong to the world, not to God.

The old saying was, ''You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

Life for some is wonderful, for others painful.

Even with my pain , life is wonderful , 'cause I'm an optimist !!

Life for some is wonderful, for others painful. But it is soon past. .... We who believe know we must follow the example.

How do you know , can you show me proof , evidence ??

Those who are without faith only feel left out. Out of ''life's lottery''--finished. Out of the good experiences, the wealth, the honor.

For me is death the end , but just as you , I can't prove it !!

Also: I don't believe and I am not even suicidal thinking , I love life & I love to live !!

But it's so much better to suffer here in this life

Tell that to people who really suffer , like the people in Iraq , even in the USA , and they will call you crazy !!

I have sad dreams even now, and often. Dreams of how it once was.

Yes , I wished I never had a bad eye-sight or a bad back !!

But they don't want good advice.

Who says ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 17, 2004.

I don't have an answer about this subject. I do know I think about this everyday of my life and it is driving me crazy!!!! I am married and have 4 children that I love soooooo much. I am so scared I will die and never see them or my husband again. They all sleep with me because I am so scared I might die and want them to be right by me. I will not even go out of town with out them because I am afraid something might happen to one of us. I do believe in God and I am a Christian, but I have been told so many different things from Pastors, counselors, doctors etc.... I am scared death is dark and final and we will be alone and never see or even know our loved ones we had hear on Earth. I sometimes wish I could talk to people that have had near death experiences, maybe they can help me. I feel like I am paralyzed with fear of death. Thanks for listening :) Tra

-- Tracie Conley (iluvfrogss@yahoo.com), June 28, 2004.

Tracy, death is not final, dark, or lonely for those who love God and other people... so don't let your imagination fool you. Sometimes the devil plays on our fears to remove peace from our hearts. Pray for the light and peace which the Holy Spirit brings.

1) Death isn't final. The proof of the immortality of our soul is found in logic and metaphysics. Step #1 An effect is never greater than its cause. Step #2. Human consciousness (will and intellect) are effects which are totally out of proportion to the "brain" which is a physical organ...Step #3, THEREFORE, since we all have direct experience of real non-spatial and non-temporal things like conceptual thought and free will, there must be some power in man which is NOT material, hence, has no parts...hence can't fall "apart"..., that is to say, die.

Step #4: Your intellect and will therefore are spiritual!

2) The human body dies, but not the spiritual human soul: see above...things with parts fall apart. But the soul doesn't have parts, so can't decay!

3) Death of a Christian can't be lonely! What happens to the human soul when it separates from its human body? Only two possibilities: it will exist with other spiritual beings whom it loves or it will seek only itself.

You love your husband, children, and God... if any of you die, their human soul will "go" or rather "exist" in the presence of God. Without a body there is no time, no space, no senses... but there is knowledge and will, love and joy.

If you want to read something along these lines see CS Lewis' book "The Great Divorce".

In the New Testament Gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly assures us that he is preparing places for us in Heaven...that if we love him and obey his commandments he will take us to these "places", we will see God and be loved by God...and all the other beings we love.

He also assured us that our souls would receive their bodies again at the end of time...and through these raised bodies again enter into union with our loved ones.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), June 28, 2004.

well, tracie, if you want to come to a place where there is unified doctrine and teaching throughout the church, the catholic church is a good place for you.

we don't fear death because we know that if we do as God asks of us, we will be saved. You need not fear death either... when you are afraid just recite to yourself "yea, though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death, no evil shall i fear." put your faith in God and you will be okay.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 28, 2004.

Life is a surprise, when you receive it.

What then (in that case) is the death ??

Because-- I have suffered so much, Laurent; if I hadn't been a Christian, I would have killed myself. That's how I know.

The way you say it , it looks a bit weird !! __ Sorry !! __ You maybe mean , if YOU hadn't believe in yourself , you would have killed yourself !!

To be honest , I don't think about the death , 'cause life has so much more to offer , but if I die , so be it !!

----------------------------------------------------------------

In my eyes , committing suicide , it's never a good solution !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), July 04, 2004.