homosexual "marriage" and rights

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I know I'm going to get hammered on this one, but this question is sincere. How do homosexual marriage and rights affect the rest of society? For the record, I'm with the "rest of society".

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 08, 2004

Answers

Bump!

-- Anon (bump@bump.com), May 08, 2004.

It affects society because it will impact on the natural family (dad,mum and children) and the family is the crux of society. God gave us his plan for society when he gave us Adam and Eve. Homosexuality goes against the natural order of relationships between humans. Unfortunately some people are exposed and brought up in these type of relationships (children brought up with homosexual parents etc) and for them - it is a denial and a robbery of the truth.

For them - what they have seen is family to them, and they too, are in need of healing.

As christians we are called to try and defend the truth about these kind of issues, which are increasing in society. I think your question is a good one because as christians we need to gain clarity and awareness of these issues.

-- Veronica D (veronica01_2@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.


Here are a number of articles you might find interesting on the subject:

It's about the survival of our civilization. If we retreat from society's respect for the natural marriage institution, that represents a fundamental breach of the social contract, and it will lead to the dissolution of our civil society. We are playing with the most fundamental kind of fire here, and it's the kind of fire that transcends politics and leads to the destruction of civilizations. And that's where we're headed, if we don't deal with this effectively.
Alan Keyes On Gay Marriage (Transcript: Hannity & Colmes 4/22/04)

It might be asked how a law can be contrary to the common good if it does not impose any particular kind of behaviour, but simply gives legal recognition to a de facto reality which does not seem to cause injustice to anyone. In this area, one needs first to reflect on the difference between homosexual behaviour as a private phenomenon and the same behaviour as a relationship in society, foreseen and approved by the law, to the point where it becomes one of the institutions in the legal structure. This second phenomenon is not only more serious, but also assumes a more wide-reaching and profound influence, and would result in changes to the entire organization of society, contrary to the common good. Civil laws are structuring principles of man's life in society, for good or for ill. They “play a very important and sometimes decisive role in influencing patterns of thought and behaviour”. Lifestyles and the underlying presuppositions these express not only externally shape the life of society, but also tend to modify the younger generation's perception and evaluation of forms of behaviour. Legal recognition of homosexual unions would obscure certain basic moral values and cause a devaluation of the institution of marriage.
Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)

Devastating consequences of homosexual marriage



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 08, 2004.


A question:

(How I see it) __ Because it's "(actually)" forbidden for gay people to be catholic , than why you make it your problem ?? __ What give you the right ??

I know , you will start talking about morals , but what is the main reason ?? __ Since gays do excist , how they become gay ??

btw: Bill , thx for the links !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 09, 2004.


Laurent, You said:

'(How I see it) __ Because it's "(actually)" forbidden for gay people to be catholic , than why you make it your problem ?? _'

I just want to clarify something here. It is NOT forbidden for a 'gay' person to be Catholic. What is forbidden is the practise of their homosexuality. Just as it is forbidden for people who are not married to have sexual relations.

Also, the Church teaches that the homosexual act is intrinsically disordered, but the person themselves, if celibate, may be a member of the Church and receive all of the sacraments, as they are not in a state of sin.

God bless

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 09, 2004.



Laurent, As Sara so rightly pointed out: it is *not* forbidden for someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex to be Catholic, any more than it is forbidden for someone who is prone to violent outbursts to be Catholic. What is sinful is BEHAVIOR. We teach that it is wrong to behave in a sinful mannor. No excuses of 'well, I was born this way' or 'it is too hard to control my temptations'. We are ALL called to a life of grace, and we are ALL called to chastity...it really doesn't absolve you of that responsibility because you think that is hard for you to accomplish or not.

As for marriage, we need to remember taht part of the purpose of marriage is to raise children and it has been found that the best possible environment for children to be raised in is an environment of a nurturing husband and wife. That does not occur frequently enough in our society, but that is no reason to push the children aside, abolish an institution that has been fundamental to civilization for eons, and replace it with something that yields to the temptation towards sinful acts.



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 09, 2004.


Just saw this on the US Catholic Bishops site. I thought it might help.

The Debate about "Same-Sex Marriage"


Marriage is a basic human and social institution. Though it is regulated by civil laws and church laws, it did not originate either from the church or the state, but from God. Therefore, neither church nor state can alter the basic meaning and structure of marriage.

Marriage, whose nature and purposes were established by God, can only be the union of a man and a woman and must remain such in law. In a manner unlike any other relationship, marriage makes a unique and irreplaceable contribution to the common good of society, especially through the procreation and education of children.

The union of husband and wife becomes, over a lifetime, a great good for themselves, their family, communities, and society. Marriage is a gift to be treasured and protected.

Official Church Statements About Marriage and Same-Sex Unions:

  1. From the full U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (November 2003): Between Man and Woman: Questions and Answers about Marriage and Same-Sex Unions
  2. From the Administrative Committee of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (September 2003): Promote, Preserve, Protect Marriage
  3. From the Bishops’ Committee on Marriage and Family and the Committee on Domestic Policy (July 1996): Statement on Same-Sex Marriage
  4. From the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (July 2003): Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons
  5. From the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for the Family (July 2000): Family, Marriage and “De Facto” Unions

Additional Resources and Links:

  1. The Catholic Bishops in Massachusetts are leading a campaign in favor of an amendment to the state constitution that would define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. Various statements and background documents are available through the Massachusetts Catholic Conference.
  2. The Marriage Law Project at the Catholic University of America (Washington DC) monitors the progress of state and federal legislation regarding marriage and same-sex unions. It provides updates and other resources.
  3. Most Reverend William J. Levada, Archbishop of San Francisco, has issued statements in response to the “gay marriages” taking place in that city. The links can be found toward the bottom of the main page.
  4. The Catholic Organization for Life and Family (COLF), working with the Canadian Catholic Bishops, has published a very helpful question/answer leaflet about same-sex marriage entitled Marriage Matters.
  5. A national organization of Catholic citizens for education and advocacy called Your Catholic Voice has an extensive treatment of this topic on its website.

 



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 09, 2004.

So , than you see homosexuality as a (kind of) handicap or .... ?? __ I don't mean the sexual-act itself , but the person itself !!

Isn't so , that everything has a purpose ?? __ If they may not act , than why they do exist , I still see no answer to that question ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 09, 2004.


Laurent, why is it wrong for an alcoholic to drink alcohol? Why was he "made that way"? Some people want to perform sexual acts with young children or with animals. Does it make it right if they were "made that way"? We are all tempted to do various things that are wrong. That is the way we are ALL made. The wrong things we are most tempted to do differ from person to person. We can turn these temptations to a good "purpose".

BTW the majority of those who identify as "homosexual" have deliberately encouraged homosexual feelings in themselves and are not simply "made that way".

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), May 09, 2004.


So , than you see homosexuality as a (kind of) handicap or .... ?? __ I don't mean the sexual-act itself , but the person itself !!

No, I see people, lots of people with different graces and temptations. Some people are tempted to beat their kids, some are tempted to have sex with the next door neighbor's wife. Some are tempted to have sex with his neighbor's 17 year old son. Some are tempted to take their neighbor's goods. Everyone has differnent temptations. What is constant, is that everyone has temptations. We are all welcome into the Church. Christ only asks that we try our best not to yield to our sinful temptations, and He has promised us the grace to combat our temptations. None of us can use the excuse that since we don't know where the temptations come from that we must have been 'born' with them, therefore they are OK to yield to. Even if we are born with, say, a smaller stomach, and have to eat frequently, we are justified in stealing food that belongs to someone else. Or if we are born with a high amount of testesterone, that we can beat our wife. Or if we are different in some other way (and we are all different in one way or another), that that difference somehow gives us the justification to sin. Nope, sorry, it ain't that easy. Somehow this society, this selfish, always me, society thinks that we can talk our way out of everything. After all, it all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is, doesn't it? Or as Kerry puts it 'I voted for it before I voted against it'.



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@Hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.



Well, but then how do you reconcile science with these beliefs?

For example, unless you were brought up in a very old-fashioned household, you probably believe that alcoholism is an illness. Some are brought up with the belief that any drinking of alcohol is sinful. I was brought up with the notion that drinking is the same as doing drugs or smoking, that it is stupid to ruin your body that way.

What about the perception of leprosy--are there people who go around saying that "you sinned, this is why you're ill"? Not in this day and age.

Another example--women ALWAYS being blamed in the past for infertility, or a child being the "wrong" sex. Did people in Biblical times have sex every single day, no matter how tired or ill or whatever? Somehow I doubt it. So that without scientific evidence to the contrary, it could be just bad luck that a woman did not conceive, yet she was blamed.

As to homosexuality, I believe that some very small percent of the population is born that way, just as some are born with conditions beyond their control or cure. However I think most people calling for gay rights are just doing the "alternative lifestyle" thing.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 10, 2004.


Homosexual behavior is inherently grievous. So the behavior is wrong, however the temptation is a temptation. Beating your infant son is inherently sinful. Being tempted to, but resisting it is not sinful. (yes there are those out there who are predisposed to fly off the handle and can be tempted to do such a thing). Just like you might be tempted to steal (for some it seems imbred), but if you don't act upon that temptation, you are not sinning. Sin is a BEHAVIOR, not a temptation. And, again, we all have sinful temptations of one kind or another.

In Christ,
bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.


Ok , if catholics seeing gay people as a sin , that's your good right , my parents also seeing it that way !!

If the gouverment says ,homosexuals are a crime !! __ Sorry , I disagree , 'cause what kind of crime they have committed ??

I accept them as normal people , unless , they commit a crime !!

Or when they cheat on their partner , that's a sin !!

People & alcohol , they become alcoholics for different/various reason , but 1 thing they all have in common , a run (out) for , escape from real reality , what makes their problem only wurse !!

People & disabuse , people who hit people for no reason , are weak !!

A kid which do something wrong and/or it's lying about it , his parents give the kid a warning , that's something else , unless the kid really get hurts this way by purpose !! (Sorry for my bad expression , but I think you what I mean)

paedophilia & animal-sex & even necrophilia , I don't see what this got to do with homosexuals , 'cause the 3 firstones are complete disturbed outerspace aliens !!

Neighbour-sex , that's making your life like a soap !!

You simply can't force homosexuals to become hetero , that doesn't work , that's also forcing people !!

I was born invalid (my eye-sight) , so actually , I'm a sinner too ??

Or people born with aids , are they sinners too ??

What about people who can't get kids ??

Discrimination , I thought it was also a sin ??

btw: I agree with GT !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 12, 2004.


test

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 12, 2004.

"Ok , if catholics seeing gay people as a sin..."

No, we keep telling you, we see people as people. All people have temptations. Sin is BEHAVIOR. You have to act upon your temptations before you sin. And everyone has temptations. bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 12, 2004.



But Bill, aren't you forgetting "lust", which is a thought? So, it doesn't have to be behavior, necessarily.

Although I wonder if there would even be the drive for gay marriages if health insurance were not so tied to dependency/having a "job" issues (in other words, nationalized) and if inheritance laws were changed. I mean, you have people "quietly" getting married to live together, but they don't want to mess up their social security benefits (say one gets much higher survivor benefits from their late spouse). You have people divorcing in order to get on the state low-income healthcare plan for a critically ill child because while married they make too much money. That is wrong.

So, many of these "gay marriages" may actually in truth be cases of a formalized relationship only for benefits. People shouldn't have to do that, any more than you should HAVE to have a 9-5 job in order to get a reasonably-priced healthcare plan that does not exclude people for prior conditions.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 12, 2004.


"But Bill, aren't you forgetting "lust", which is a thought? "

still an action. might be a mental action, but still an action

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 12, 2004.


Concerning health insurance and other societal issues: Should gays be denied spousal health insurance coverage? Health insurance (?). Adoption (NO!). Inheretance (?). Buy one combo meal and two drinks, get one combo meal of equal or lesser value free (?). I'm so out of touch on this one I don't even know what the other issues are.

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 13, 2004.

"Concerning health insurance and other societal issues"

For what? Friendship? If you want to say that certain friends can get social benefits because they are friends, fine. That is a political issue. If you want to say that they can be preferential treatment because they are not only friends, but engage in grievious behavior, then no.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 13, 2004.


But benefits, such as health insurance, are tied to two things, being employed, or being a relative of someone who is, unless you want to pay truly astronomical rates, and still run the risk of being denied coverage for illnesses that in most cases you can do nothing about (alcohol, tobacco, and drugs excluded) having.

There probably are several cases of single mothers with children "marrying" in order to secure these benefits. Should insurance be a marriage issue at all?

So you get into one of these same-sex marriages--if you're just doing it for the health care (in other words, not engaging in the behavior), is that wrong? Is getting a divorce to get healthcare for a sick child wrong?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 13, 2004.


And Mark brings up a good point--if it's a 2 for 1 whatever, it shouldn't matter whether it is two men, man and woman, two women, brother and sister, husband and wife. In other words, the relationship shouldn't matter for most things.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 13, 2004.

If you want to give benefits to mothers who have been abandoned by their husbands, fine, but don't give them benefits because they are singled out for engaging in grievious acts. Othewise you are making a moral statement that the grievious acts are OK, and other institutions, like marriage, is not.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 13, 2004.

But that's just it, unless you're there in the bedroom, maybe they are and maybe they're not. The piece of paper saying someone is married does not automatically mean something is going on somewhere in bed. I really feel that the drive for same-sex marriage is not as much about acceptance of the behavior as it is about equal benefits.

And look at all the "political marriages" of royalty over the ages....Many of those were shams.

And I'm not talking about abandoned spouses, but two rational people who CHOOSE to divorce for financial reasons due to inability to afford expensive healthcare treatments, like for cancer.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 13, 2004.


Bill , what if you got a kid who's gay , and wishes to marry ??

What is wrong , homosexuals who marries the opposite sex to hide their beeing gay , 'cause such marriages are build on lies , or am I wrong !?!?

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 13, 2004.


The Church's stand is right, but should society be able to deny gays health insurance, for example, available to heteros living in sin? How can we, as Catholics, want to deny gays or Nestorians, or anyone who disagrees with our Catholic theology the basic human dignity of health care, for example, the same as society denies health care for the poor? Did Mother Teresa deny love and care to gay Hindus or gay Muslims?

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 13, 2004.

I believe that homosexual marriage affect society in a great way. I am a 20 year old student and to think that this wouldn't affect society would be perpostruous. According to the bible a marriage is a secret thing. It is a union between a MAN and a WOMAN and anything outside of this isn't right. If they recieve the same rights as heterosexuals than society will certainly be in trouble. Have we ever stopped to think about children and their education. NO we havent. This will greatly affect schools because eventually children will be home schooled. Why should I have to pay taxes to support things of which I don't believe in. I don't think thats fair. I believe honmosexuality is wrong and extremely disgusting. Furthermore I bellieve thats playing with God. As my FATHER and MOTHER always told me never play with fire because you might get burned!!!!

-- Dominique Smith (msthang1983@yahoo.com), June 03, 2004.

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