Luke 16 (A New Thread).

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Originally Posted Here.

Ah! New Age Religion. I'm trying to recall the Apocalypse of Peter (if memory permits) had the same rational. The souls in Heaven will ask God to have mercy on those in Hell. God will say "Oh, ok, they can be in Heaven." This is perhaps the reason that book was not included in the Holy Bible.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Well it would certainly have contradicted Luke 16:19-31:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you (heaven and hell) a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

I mean...Wow!! Although I think that this verse is really speaking about religious entities that withhold the truth from its people..the rich man being a religious leader and the beggar representing the hungry souls of people.....it also speaks loud and clear about faith in Jesus Christ being the key to heaven.., and it is clear that once we die--it's too late.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), May 05, 2004.


Yeah, but you know what bugs me about that Scripture?

Abraham is able to see both people and we are spectators to both conditions. So, the "gulf" does have loop holes. The hellbound can see the saved and Abraham can talk with both the damned and the saved. Well, if that's the case, Abraham can visit earth just like the Angels, demaons, and other pertinent souls (Mary?).

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004

Answers


Well I always thought that in the passage, Abraham and Lazarus were both in the waiting place that OT believers went before Jesus came to redeem them for heaven. (Could this be purgatory?). This passage is supported by one in one of Peter's letters about Jesus going to preach to the spirits who were in prison. OTOH, the rich man was in hell.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), May 05, 2004.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Exactly. That is what leads me to have a stronger belief in Purgatory. Once a soul becomes a resident of Hell or Heaven, I can understand the perpetualness of their conditions.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


How would you see purgatory in the idea of Lazarus being carried by angels to Abraham's side? You think Abraham has been in purgatory all that time? Wasn't Abraham considered righteous in God's sight? Lazarus is being comforted...is that what purgatory is---a place of comfort?

I think there is great irony in Jesus' statement that if they didn't believe Moses and the Prophets (Scripture) they would not believe in the resurrection. Jesus knew that even when he would rise from the dead-- religious leaders still would not believe or accept him---

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 05, 2004.


Rod,

About this s parable about the Rich man and Lazarus I have these thoughts:

a) Was created by the Church? Probably b) Was created after Lazarus resurrection (see John)= Widow's son of Luke? c)Was created by Luke?

b or c would do. Mark, Matthew, John, and Thomas don't have it.

Parables discuss contrasts, or figurative language not reality, Rod:

Examples: Tares and Wheat, : good and bad, house on sand-house on rock: belief for one day..., strong belief.

Here is between Hell (fire) and Heaven. In the Hell of fire the Rich man sometimes known as Dives doesn't desintegrate by it. So Hell cannot be of fire. Flesh burns. Spirits are desintegrated (fused) by it. Remember the terminator 2 and 3?

Abraham stands for the Israelites as a nation. He also stands for righteousness. The this man is judged according to righteuosness.

He had none.

Did the beggar get to Heaven for being poor? It is not mentioned.

The idea was among Israelites that since Abraham prospered for following God (El) then , anyone who follows God by inference then also must be wealthy.

This is what the parable seems to discredit: Wealth is not synonymous with righteousness.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Elpidio--

Rather than concentrating on the exact words of the story--try seeing the symbolism. Lazarus didn't go to heaven because he was poor--he went to heaven because--in spite of the fact that the spiritual food he craved was kept from him--he was honored for his sincere seeking and desiring of the things of God.

I think this message says that religious leaders and institutions have a great responsibility to lead the people in truth. And I think that this story indicates that innocent people who do everything in their power to find God--even if they are led astray--will still go to heaven. But beware Sadducees and Pharisees and teachers of the Word of God--if you are not doing right by God.

Where else do we see this reference to being dressed in purple and fine linen?

It is mentioned in Revelation 18:16-17, when revealing the fate of an apostate religion...

'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.



Viewed from that perception, Elipidio, I would agree that the rich man has nothing of value in the material "cents". The riches are found in the acceptance of Christ and the rewards dramatically out weigh the material world. I can understand the meaning of Luke 16 in such a context.

I'm positive that poverty is not a redeeming quality, but how one copes with it may make one righteous in the eyes of God. The same would apply to a life of great wealth. How one deals with their wealth may make one too fat to fit through the "eye of a needle".

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Faith

That is the first time I have ever heard Luke 16 in the context of institutionalized religion. That does make sense. The "food" that was denied, yet the faith that maintained. I would have to add God's Divine Mercy to the equation.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


That's true, Rod.

One's poverty or wealth should not be a litmus test for salvation.

Rather how he deal with others. That's what our friendfaith implies by Lazarus searching for God.

Poverty will not saves. It only makes for a good excuse with God. He may be more lenient.

Merchants , businessmen will not be damned for being rich. If they neglect what is essential for salvation, then, like you said, they will be too fat to enter through the eye of the needle.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


This is a great discussion. I've always seen this passage as an allegory for those who are blessed by God yet don't share those blessings with others. These blessings could be wealth, or talents, or even love.

I see how this could refer to religious institutions, but I look at on a more personal level. God blesses us all. How many "scraps" do we throw to those whose lot in life is hard, yet suffer in faith? I think of Lazarus as representing people who have a tough life in some aspect, be it physical or emotional or spiritual yet remain faithful in love. Was Lazarus one of the poor in spirit? I think so.

What about the rich man, blessed by God with wealth? We could be that rich man, blessed with physical things, blessed with emotional well being, blessed spiritually, yet we if hoard our wealth and time, not sharing our blessings with the "beggars" of the world then woe to us.

Mt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Lk 6:24-25 "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation. "Woe to you that are full now, for you shall hunger. "Woe to you that laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.

Tht least that's how I've seen this parable.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 06, 2004.


Please see my new thread Purgatory - A Look at Scripture and Catholic Teaching.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004.


I would like to discuss 15: 1-7 if anyone is interested.

-- Darren Laine (dlaine@manitowoc.org), August 11, 2004.

I'm game.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 11, 2004.

Luke 15:1-7 (KJV)
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), August 11, 2004.

What an awesome Lord we have! How merciful! He loves us so much that he never stops calling us to repent.

I think this is telling us how He will keep calling us back to him even when we stray far. He never gives up on us. I think it is we who give up on Him. What love He has for us who deserve none of it.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), August 14, 2004.


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